From owner-hexagram-8-digest@apocalypse.org Sat Jan 1 21:02:08 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id VAA29035 for hexagram-8-digest-outgoing; Sat, 1 Jan 2000 21:02:08 -0500 Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2000 21:02:08 -0500 Message-Id: <200001020202.VAA29035@apocalypse.org> X-Authentication-Warning: apocalypse.org: majordom set sender to owner-hexagram-8-digest@apocalypse.org using -f From: owner-hexagram-8-digest@apocalypse.org (hexagram-8-digest) To: hexagram-8-digest@apocalypse.org Subject: hexagram-8-digest V1 #152 Reply-To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Sender: owner-hexagram-8-digest@apocalypse.org Errors-To: owner-hexagram-8-digest@apocalypse.org Precedence: bulk hexagram-8-digest Saturday, January 1 2000 Volume 01 : Number 152 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 29 Dec 1999 20:47:03 EST From: RCol547987@aol.com Subject: Re: HEX8: Time and Space/Big Bright Moon Hi Rhett. As far as I know there is no reference to Fu Xi or his system in the Oracle Bones of the Shang or the Dawenkou. I believe most of the names associated with the oracle bones (tortoise shells) are references to nobility of that period -- Prince Hai (exiled) being the most frequent referral. Fu Xi was from a different tribe, in a different era, living northwest of An Yang (seat of the Shang.) However, there do appear what has been termed "strange characters" that look something like trigrams on late Shang and early Zhou bronze vessels. There also have been found markings which show a series of numerals that form hexagrams (ie. 878785 & 188611) found on both oracle bones and pottery shards. The last reference was reported in Kaogu, 1961, No. 2, p. 93. Also see the examples and discussion on this in Huang's "I Ching", p. 54 & 55. (Workman Pub. 1987.) It is possible (anything is possible!) that each culture knew of the other culture'ssystem of divination, and tit may be by happenstance that the above-m entioned "strange characters" were attempts to probe the hexagram idea -- or simply they were interesting design motifs. I hope this helps. In peace, Roy ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Dec 1999 21:07:55 EST From: RCol547987@aol.com Subject: Re: HEX8: Paper Folding and the I Ching, II In a message dated 12/29/99 7:26:25 PM, Monica wrote << What am I driving at? PLAY with the I Ching! Do you think Fu Hsi came up with his notation and layout via studied methods? I find it much easier to imagine him looking at a piece of paper, thinking to himself, "What happens if I put this here? Or what about here?...?", and achieving his final layout in a flash of what we call "The Eureka phenomenon." >> Yes, Monica. I believe 100 per cent in what you are saying here. In ancient China yarrow stalks were used as counting sticks, and by "playing around" with them I believe not only were the trigrams and hexagrams invented, but also the River Diagram and Luo Tablet as well. On p. 53 of Kerson and Rosemary Huang's "I Ching" there is a reference to this as well: " The magic squares must have been discovered by playing around with the counting sticks. " I also would like to add that I think your folded paper (of Fu Xi's chart) is also very clever and I will try it later when I find extra time. I wanted a little clarification on this however: In your discussion you mentioned a word like "choose" or "pick" a hexagram and make a pin-hole, etc. Did you mean "divine" a hexagram via a specific coin/stalk procedure, first, or do you mean "randomly" choose any hexagram (of your choice?.) Thank you, Roy ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Dec 1999 11:47:31 -0500 From: "Dr R. Butler" Subject: Re: HEX8: Paper Folding and the I Ching, II Hi Monica, I am interested. I have never tried YiJing paper folding, but like to have fun. Happy New Year! Rhett PS Ron frowns :-( on anything that is *not* ASCII text. Generally, extra material is posted to a Web Page for downloading, or emailed separately upon request. Many of the list members have bandwidth-limited access where they pay by the byte. In the same spirit, simply copying an entire message upon reply is costly to some--better to snip here and there. > >So - When you receive the copy of my book, you'll see the layouts for >yourself. Would you like to see more applications using that layout? >Would you like to see more paper-folding techniques? Would you like to see >more applications for Fu Hsi's layout? Would you like to know about the >assigments I was given to prove my understanding of the I Ching? > >Finally: Are attachments allowed? > > > >Monica > > > ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Dec 1999 13:56:09 -0500 From: "Dr R. Butler" Subject: Re: HEX8: Time and Space/Big Bright Moon Hi Roy, ... >However, there do appear what has been termed "strange >characters" that look >something like trigrams on late Shang and early Zhou bronze vessels. There >also have been found markings which show a series of numerals that form >hexagrams >(ie. 878785 & 188611) found on both oracle bones and pottery shards. The >last reference >was reported in Kaogu, 1961, No. 2, p. 93. Also see the examples and >discussion on this in Huang's "I Ching", p. 54 & 55. (Workman Pub. 1987.) ... Thanks for the references. Here is my best reference. Ed Shaugnessy translated an article from Kaogu 1981.2:155-63, 154. "Some Observations about Milfoil Divination Based on Shang and Zhou 'bagua' Numerical Symbols" by Zhang Yachu and Liu Yu of the Institute of Archeology, Chinese Academy of Social Science, Beijing. The translation appeared in Early China 7 (1981-82), 46-54. If you are interested in such things, it is worth looking it up at a library. There are 36 such examples of 'bagua' symbols shown in Chart 1 in the translation. However, in each case they are interpreted as numerical inscriptions, not solid and broken lines forming hexagrams or trigrams as seen in the Mawangdui silk manuscript, circa 160 BC. Once a year I stop by the University of Hawaii library and look over the journal Early China, which has interesting material in English. I am sure that other University libraries with Chinese departments carry it as well. Aloha, Rhett ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Dec 1999 14:07:30 EST From: Autorbis@aol.com Subject: Re: HEX8: Time and Space/Big Bright Moon Hi Ron, ##### Ohsawa, although a master in his own art, probably can't be called an expert in historical matters. RC: You are missing the point. No one has to be a master of anything to have their own opinion about something -- Everyone has the right to define things according to their own judgment and constantly evolving consciousness. L: That's no problem, we've a democracy. The quality of an opinion is the deciding difference. Opinions can carry worthless rubbish or interesting informations, wrong conclusions or well-thought arguments. +++++Do you expect a chinese commentator of 500 BC to give a really relevant information about the time before the I-Ching? RC: Yes, probably more relevant than our commentaries as they are not as far removed in place or time as ours. It should also be noted that two of China's greatest thinkers lived during this time (Confucius and Lao Tze.) Pythagoras and Empedocles also lived during this time. You can be brilliant and live in neolithic times or stupid living in modern times. I don't see any validity to your question here. L: They were more inside the game, that's right. Chinese behaviour from 500 BC is nearer to China 1000 BC than European behaviour of 2000 AD. The natural conditions were similar, so "understanding" was less difficult to them. But: our information system works much better than theirs. Probably Confucius had great difficulties to get the text of Lao-Tse for instance. Also they didn't have our historical experience of 2500 years history. And they only saw China, we see a lot of others cultures. There are a lot of arguments, why we can "understand" better - if we take the chance to do so. Not everybody does - of course. The biggest librarie in the middle ages had around 1000 books. How many books or scriptures had Confucius? ++++Well, you've the argument on your side, that FuHi is painted with a rectangle and his sister and wife nue-kua with a circle (a pair of compasses), and that the rectangle is interpreted as a symbol of earth and the circle as symbol of heaven. This might be a motive of an old time and it might be the issue for the idea, that "before" I-Ching heaven was seen as female and earth as male. RC: I don't know who painted this picture you are discussing but again it comes down to a personal idea or in this case a decpiction of an idea -- not necessarily representing an entire nations beliefs. L: This picture seems to have been rather common and seems to have the character of a "general chinese myth". I got it from my dictionary about chinese mythology, but saw pictures of the scene also at other places. ++++However, this is only an "idea". It is said, that this picture symbolizes "good customs". The idea of "Good customs" might mean, that males do female things, and female (are allowed) to do male things. RC: Huh? L: Sorry. English is not my first language, so occasionally I've difficulties to express my ideas correctly. I wanted to express, that "good customs" might mean, that male persons do cooperate with female persons in the way, that they exchange socalled "male activities" with socalled "female activities", so that both sides can do both activities without hurting any social rule or taboo. ++++As on this pictures both persons are shown with snake bodies, touching each other in the way of the caduceus or wand of Hermes or Asklepios (medicine symbol in Western culture), the picture might express the idea, that FuHi had given the pair of compasses to Nue-Kua and Nue-Kua had given the rectangle to Fu-Hi, as both are presenting first man + first woman (= Adam + Eve) and "first married pair" in a chinese mind. RC: Huh? again. It is my understanding that Fu Xi and his sister both had these serpent/dragon shapes so that they could endure the mythological Great Flood. L: I don't know the Chinese variation of the Great Flood. Perhaps you can tell me? I just know, that they occasionally are seen in this form, ringing their snake-tails together to express their unity (in the form of the Caduceus). The Caduceus, as a comparative western object, might have associated in the Greek world the "marriage" between son Zeus (= highest god) and mother Rhea (synonym for earth) in the form of two snakes, the result of the "marriage" were the 10 Daktylen, 5 male and 5 female (synonym for 2 hands or 2x5 fingers (Rhea was connected with the number 5). However, the Caduceus as a symbol is older then the Greek culture. It was found as an artefact ca. 2000 BC in Lagasch (Mesopotamia). snip ++++The mathematical idea of the FuHi-cirle expresses a "timeless" balance between male + female. RC: That can be "one" interpretaion, yes. ++++This is a nice interesting idea. The mathematic behind it is not very complicated. I think, one can assume, that it has an older time than the beginning of the reign of the Chou. That's no problem. But to say, that King Wen originated the idea, that heaven = male and earth = female, because it was "before" vice versa .... I still think, you have no base for that. RC: I never said King Wen "originated the idea, that heaven=male and earth=female. As far as I know others could have come up with this idea as well. I stated that King Wen changed the positions of the line graphs of Fu Xi and the (ultimate) yang hexagram ended up in the place that was originally designated for the (ultimate) yin hexagram. This may have been intentioanl given that society then was paternal and not equal for females. L: I'm a little confused. Do you speak now of the King-Wen-order of the trigrams with East = 100 + 011 + 101 + 000 etc.? ???? ++++And you're citing Ohsawa .... do you think, that he'd a truth-telling daimon in his pocket, with the newest informations about old China? RC: Ohsawa was one of many that I cited, not the only one. Again, you miss the point that he has every right to define yin/yang however he pleases. ++++ Or shall we discuss, if Fu-Hi and Nue-Kua were "really" half-snaked Aliens with cowheads? RC: Huh? again. The Falun Gong movement believe that aliens with horns for noses were Earth's first settlers. It really doesn't bother me if Fu Xi (or Christ or Lao Tze, or Shenung, or Thor, etc.) were real beings or not. It is the message that was brought (by them/attributed to them) that is what is important. Yet, it is true that I really believe that Fu Xi was a real person -- sans serpent body. I am also aware of the received archaeological record that homo sapiens lived in China before Fu Xi, that they knew how to hunt and cook meat over fire. Fu Xi and his sister were not the first people in China... L: Well, we don't know, if Oidipus was "really" king of Theben, also. By archaeological luck occasionally a mythological figure turns to have been a "real person". Imhotep for instance. ##### The Christian view point of Heaven and earth is based upon Jewish mythology. Jewish mythology knew 7 heaven + 7 earths, such indicating, that they saw heaven and earth as logical opposites. RC: Not the Christians I know. L: Most people don't know, where they got their ideas from. The Christians got their love for heaven + hell probably mostly from Zarathustra with his dualistic good/evil-model, which entered into Christianity by some gnostic sects. The Zoroastrian dualistic is mathematical very similar to the I-Ching, it's based upon a 6 + 1-structure. This entered the theories of gnostical sects, there is a lot of stuff arranged in patterns based upon a "7". The idea was taken in the Christian "7 virtues + 7 sins". Out of this idea developed Christian heaven + Christian hell as the natural goal of heaven + hell. But of course that was not their only hell. The same 7+7-feature was already in Jewish mythology with 7 heavens + 7 earthes. +++Gehenna = Hell was seen as a very special place at one of these 7 earths. The Greek model (in one of its versions) saw a triade of heaven (= Uranos) + earth (= Gaia) + ocean (= Pontos), thanks to the natural condition, that they knew a lot about water (so they had to integrate it). Gaia had children with Uranos and with Pontos. This triade was mirrored in the 3 Kronos-sons Zeus (= Olymp = heaven) + Poseidon (= ocean) + Hades (= deep in earth). But Hades was not hell, he just was "death", because the Greek didn't knew "hell". RC: That's fine and dandy, all these myths. Still the dictionary meaning of Hades is synonomous with Hell. Period. L: What do you think about burning this dictionary? :-) It is probably a dictionary for modern people, not for old Greeks. ++++The Christian view of heaven + earth + hell is a little chaotic. Mostly they did believe in an astronomical-astrological heaven and a "centered earth". RC: In your opinion it is chaotic -- I'm not too sure if all the Christians of the ancient world believed in an astronomical-astrological heaven and a "centered earth" as you say they did. I don't have a "truth-telling diamond" that would enable me to know all peoples thoughts. L: "Daimon", not diamond. Sokrates had one :-) No, you are right. Christians of course were a multi-cultural association, they (also) didn't believe the same things at different locations and different times. But the Romans did knew about some astronomical-astrological data and the Christians took it from them, as they were "Romans". Although they did forget a lot, they kept some ideas. In the main model the earth was centered and all other "planets" were cycling around the earth. This idea was changed with Copernicus, Galilei, etc.. ++++Perhaps you should study Dante for details about Christian hells. RC: Already read it. Your point is moot. Hades = Hell. L: The time of Dante was not very good informed about Greek mythology, they did know more about Roman mythology. Petrarca and Bocacchio, who are a little later than Dante, raised the interest for the older Greek sources in 14th century. (snip remainer of snide remarks) ++++ Actually I don't see here a contradiction or "reason for disagreement". Both sentences are applyable to the same system. RC: Actually I do. I do not interpret what you are saying to mean anything near to what I mean. I therefore would conclude that we are in disagreement -- which is really OK, as long as we maintain "yi" (respect) for each other's differences. ##### Hm. In my world sentences like "The idea of I-Ching is, that there are 4096 "life situations" - no others" and "the idea of the Yijing is to teach three basic laws and apply them to your life to achieve balance and harmony" are not contradictious and are no "reasons for disagreement". Perhaps you've an idea of 3 basic laws which you consider different from mine? I would think of Yin + Yang + Tao as "basic laws"? Do you think of something different? RC: I believe we live in the same "world" Lothar, just that we perceive things differntly, which is OK ( I think?) And again I don't see "4096 life situations --no other meaning (of Yi jing)" as anywhere close to what the three things that I believe the Yi to mean: 1. gradual change. 2. yin/yang balance 3. polar reversal. L: I wouldn't express it in that complicated way :-). Disagreement, alright. Your 3 ideas would also work in an I-Ching with 7 or more or less lines than 6. So with your 3 ideas the I-Ching isn't choosen out of various mathematical possibilities. The term "4096 life-situations", although it is only an abbreviation of the I-Ching-system, is clearer, perhaps not clear enough, but it is "inside the system". ++++As far I'm informed, these parts are also seen "later commentaries" in relation to the 64 + (384+2) hexagram and line commentaries. Perhaps some of our other members can give here some more satisfying informations to clearify the case. RC: Why does it matter so much to you as to when a commentary was written? Or who wrote it? #### Well, I think, these are good and necessary tools in discovering the worth of "old literature". Otherwise we would believe, that Moses wrote the Pentateuch. I think, it is good to cure errors about old texts, as far as possible. It helps to understand the original idea. ### RC: It really doesn't matter to me in the long run. L: Well, in the case, that you're not interested in the historical evolution of something, but only in the "being" of something .... ++++ I think, around 30 fo 64 names of hexagrams in the Mawangdui are different from those in the textus receptus. RC: I'm sure, if this is true, that this was intentional for the purpose of understanding the meaning of the Yi in a different era (Warring States) Just as King Wen did in his time (early Zhou) with Fu Xi's neolithic graphs, and others have done with the yin/yang paradigm. I actually have not made a thorough study of the Mawangdui as I stated before --nor have you (from what I have so fa >> #### I've counted them at the surface now. There are 27 "name changes", but probably also some "sign changes" without name changing (I didn't control them). I've a printed original text (of course not the "original" and not based upon photographies of the original) + commentary + report and analyzes from Dominique Hertzer for that. RC: So give your opinion on why these names were changed, if you don't think the intention of the author (s) was to attempt to understand a more ancient language with up to date words. L: Hm. I already gave my opinion: "I don't think, that one can speak of "intentions" in this matter. Probably there were more than one different version to the textus receptus. The both existent texts are near enough to believe, that there was "one orginal", they are also different enough to assume a broad stream of errors, changement in writing, intentions etc.. 1000 years are a lot of time, text can change in many ways." I would say, that the text changed in many ways in that 1000 years. Occasionally with intention, occasionally unintentionally. Probably the different contradictious results became unified in a later reconstruction. ++++As a result, they did write the I-Ching in stone. They wished, that the I-Ching shouldn't change anymore. Most of this "I-Ching in stone" was destroyed soon. :-) RC: Huh? again. I know of an Yi Jing in stone from the Song Dynasty. What do you base your destroyed stone Yi jing on? L: It was done under Emperor Lingdi (168 - 189 AD). It was destroyed soon after that. It was repeated in the Wei-Jin-periode and also in the Song-time (report Dominique Hertzer). There are some stone fragments of this first try (1/10 of the original), which is based upon the version of Jin Fang (77 - 37), which came from the socalled New-Text-School in the contrary to the textus receptus, which was done by the socalled Old-Text-school. ++++Probably the "original I-Ching" was a "wordless mathematical theory of nothing" :-) RC: Huh? again, but if you are talking about the King Wen graphs, I would agree on this. If you mean the oral teachings of Fu Xi's Bagua, I would totally disagree. L: This was a philosophical sentence. :-) >> Happy new year, Ron, and all others, too :-) Lothar ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Dec 1999 17:49:55 EST From: RCol547987@aol.com Subject: Re: HEX8: Time and Space/Big Bright Moon Hi Rhett. >>Ed Shaugnessy translated an article from Kaogu 1981.2:155-63, 154. "Some Observations about Milfoil Divination Based on Shang and Zhou 'bagua' Numerical Symbols" by Zhang Yachu and Liu Yu of the Institute of Archeology, Chinese Academy of Social Science, Beijing. The translation appeared in Early China 7 (1981-82), 46-54.<< You've got my interest! I'll check with Brown University tomorrow. On of my students works in periodicals... In peace, Roy ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Dec 1999 23:02:56 -0600 From: omei shan Subject: Re: HEX8: Paper Folding and the I Ching, II >Yes, Monica. I believe 100 per cent in what you are saying here. In ancient >China yarrow stalks were used as counting sticks, and by "playing around" with them >I believe not only were the trigrams and hexagrams invented, but also the >River Diagram and Luo Tablet as well. On p. 53 of Kerson and Rosemary >Huang's "I Ching" there is a reference to this as well: " The magic squares must have >been discovered by playing around with the counting sticks. " > Isn't that the way almost all major discoveries are made? >I also would like to add that I think your folded paper (of Fu Xi's chart) is also >very clever and I will try it later when I find extra time. > Thank you, kind sir! In another letter, I'll describe ANOTHER way to fold paper and show how it relates to hexagrams. You (generic you) learn SO MUCH from playing! I have to admit that the King Wen layout has me stumped, though. I have YET to figure out a pattern to it. >I wanted a little clarification on this however: In your discussion you mentioned a word like "choose" or "pick" a hexagram and make a pin-hole, etc. >Did you mean "divine" a hexagram via a specific coin/stalk procedure, first, >or do you mean "randomly" choose any hexagram (of your choice?.) > Randomly, when you just want to "see" the relationships between hexagrams. Intentionally, when you've got a hexagram for analysis. The hexagram can be derived via any of your usual means: Coin-tossing, yarrow-stick drawing, direct observation, etc. ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Dec 1999 23:06:32 -0600 From: omei shan Subject: Re: HEX8: Paper Folding and the I Ching, II >I am interested. I have never tried YiJing paper folding, but like to have fun. > I would like to think it follows the ancient Chinese (how appropriate!) saying: I hear and forget. I see and remember. I do and understand. > >PS Ron frowns :-( on anything that is *not* ASCII text. > OK! I figured it wasn't kosher since I hadn't seen any yet. See you on the other side of Y2K! Monica ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Dec 1999 23:19:39 -0600 From: omei shan Subject: HEX8: Paper Folding and the I Ching, III OK! Here's yet another little paper-folding "game" that I fellhelps me understand the Fu Hsi layout a little better. Take a square piece of paper and fold it in half length wise. Repeat twice. When the paper is opened, you will have eight equal sections. Fold the paper back up, then repeat the folds from the other axis (90 degrees). When the paper is opened up, there are 64 squares! OK - If we take correlate each fold to a single line in a hexagram, three folds in a single direction translates into 8 sections (2 cubed) or options/choices/possilibites or one trigram! Repeating the folds from the other direction creates the second trigram. And 2 cubed, then squared, equals 64! IF - IF - IF - paper folding played any role at all in the development of the I Ching, (remember - paper wasn't invented until 305AD, and didn't make it into common use for a couple of centuries after that!), I can see why Fu Hsi stopped at 64. One, in order to keep things balanced, the number of sections has to be a multiple of 4. Two, more than three folds in one direction is unwieldy enough, try 4 or more folds in two directions! Have fun! See you on the other side of Y2K! Monica ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 31 Dec 1999 00:46:47 -0800 (PST) From: cabeal Subject: Re: HEX8: Paper Folding and the I Ching, II Monica - perhaps this was your post? Anyhow, I was asked recently how to color hexagrams... > I have to admit that the King Wen layout has me stumped, though. I have > YET to figure out a pattern to it. > > I'm not as knowledgeable as you folks on the specific histories (I'm learning a lot - thanks!) so please bear with the stumbling descriptions. IF you go to the back of Wilhelm's book and look at the 8x8 fold out chart that shows upper and lower trigrams and keys you into a particular hexagram, AND you change K'un so that it comes right after Chien instead of in the middle, you get a very different arrangement. I thought this was the original King Wen layout of the grid, but I could easily be wrong. Anyhow, this leads to Hexagrams 1,2,11 and 12 occupying the first four squares in the upper right hand corner of the grid. This pattern is significant and darn, I can't describe it all right now because I'm smack in the middle of data back ups and electrical shielding for my equipment for the rollover tomorrow but...(nice break here) Once you arrange the grid this way, if you color each square with a colored pencil in a color that corresponds to the number of yang lines in the hexagram, you'll see a very distinct pattern. If you then take a pencil tip and touch it to each hexagram in numerical order, beginning with 1, you'll begin to feel a pattern emerge - If a couple of you try this, let me know and then we can talk about it, because it does something interesting at about hexagram 17, that I can only describe as "mirror". Sorry I don't have better words, but I really have written all this before to other groups and it generally goes misunderstood until someone actually does the coloring and touching. The "touching" thing is rather Feynmanesque - Richard Feynman used to say that he had a totally different apprehension of a mathematical equation when he worked it on a calculator than when he did it out by hand. He thought there was something to the viscerality of making the physical motions, the physical patterns of the actual numbers in sequence with the pencil, that led to a greater penetration of the pattern he was trying to apprehend. I can only say that after I went through the touching sequence about 11 times, something began to "click". That's when I sensed there was a pattern and started pursuing a formal algorithm set. And this is where I'll stop. Good night. Best, cabeal ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 31 Dec 1999 02:45:25 -0600 From: "jayem" Subject: Re: HEX8: Paper Folding and the I Ching, II >The hexagram can > be derived via any of your usual means: Coin-tossing, yarrow-stick drawing, > direct observation, etc. The direct observation methods really interest me, that's something I've been trying to find out more about. ~Jay~ ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1980 13:13:10 +0400 From: "Nakashidze" Subject: HEX8: Y2K (00:00) Happy New Year to all ! Take note of the fact that the moment of approaching of New 2000 Year may be calculated (by method of Shao Yung) as the hexagram #11 PEACE. In agreement with it I wish You happiness, prosperity, bonanza, health, wealth and well-being . Timur ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 31 Dec 1999 22:19:42 -0600 From: omei shan Subject: Re: HEX8: Paper Folding and the I Ching, II I'll try the coloring and see what I come up with. Do you use different colors or simply shades of gray? What is the minimum number you recommend for this? >The "touching" thing is rather Feynmanesque - Richard Feynman used to say >that he had a totally different apprehension of a mathematical equation >when he worked it on a calculator than when he did it out by hand. He >thought there was something to the viscerality of making the physical >motions, the physical patterns of the actual numbers in sequence with the >pencil, that led to a greater penetration of the pattern he was trying to >apprehend. > I understand this COMPLETELY. Thank you for sharing this technique! Sounds fascinating! Intriguing! Monica ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 31 Dec 1999 22:42:38 -0600 From: omei shan Subject: Re: HEX8: Paper Folding and the I Ching, II > >The direct observation methods really interest me, that's something I've >been trying to find out more about. > > Several years ago as part of my black belt testing, I had to write a paper showing my use of the I Ching to analyze an attack (specified by the instructor) and to develop a counterattack. In an extremely condensed nutshell, I had to analyze a right side kick executed off the back leg and develop at least one counterattack to it. What I did was watch the kick unfold, and take a "checkpoint" at certain points, building a hexagram "on the fly" of the kick in progress. If at the "checkpoint", the kick was not a threat to me (for example, was not moving towards me and/or was not in striking distance), I assigned that "checkpoint" a yin value. Anything else got a yang line. I took 6 checkpoints and built the hexagram - from the bottom up, in the traditional manner. Once I'd built the hexagram, I used the relationships which I discussed in my letters on paper folding to determine which technique I wanted to use in order to counter, neutralize, avoid, or destroy the sidekick. I showed the kick was actually composed of two main sets of movements: chamber, and strike and rechamber. The chambering portion of the kick was assigned the value "I" and the strike and rechamber portion became "J." My chosen counter-manuveur was "J"/"I" - I chose to execute a kick off the FRONT leg, which meant I was kicking as my opponent was chambering. Remember, all this takes place in one's head as the events are unfolding! If you have any interest at all in obtaining a copy of my paper, let me know. I'll be glad to send you one. Keep in mind that it's hand-written and has my instructor's comments in it as well, so it's not going to win any prizes for neatness. Monica This is actually one of the simpler applications of the Omei I Ching. If anyone is interested, I will >~Jay~ > > > >===== >To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org >from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. > ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 31 Dec 1999 23:15:00 -0600 From: omei shan Subject: Re: HEX8: Paper Folding and the I Ching, II Do you by any chance have a Web site where you might post a colored layout? Or have a scanned copy of it that could be forwarded to those who request it? Monica ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 31 Dec 1999 23:16:12 -0600 From: omei shan Subject: Re: HEX8: Paper Folding and the I Ching, II Sorry! This e-Mail was for "cabeal" ! Monica > >Do you by any chance have a Web site where you might post a colored layout? > >Or have a scanned copy of it that could be forwarded to those who request it? > > >Monica > > ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 31 Dec 1999 21:50:29 -0800 (PST) From: cabeal Subject: Re: HEX8: Paper Folding and the I Ching, II On Fri, 31 Dec 1999, omei shan wrote: > I'll try the coloring and see what I come up with. Do you use different > colors or simply shades of gray? What is the minimum number you recommend > for this? I actually do the spectrum thing and chose red for the most yang and violet for the most yin. 6 yang lines - red, 5 yang - pink, 4 yang - orange, 3 yang - yellow, 2 yang - greem, 1 yang - blue, 0 yang - violet. > > Thank you for sharing this technique! Sounds fascinating! Intriguing! I figured you would get it. There's a lot more. I'm looking forward to a dialogue. How do I learn more about your patterns? I seem to have missed the particulars. BTW, Have you read Katya Walter - the Tao of Chaos? Cynthia > > > Monica > > > > > > ===== > To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org > from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. > ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2000 14:32:28 +0000 From: kirk@mcelhearn.com (Kirk Mcelhearn) Subject: Re: HEX8: Paper Folding and the I Ching, III On 31/12/99 5:19, omei shan, omei@express-news.net, is reported to have said: >IF - IF - IF - paper folding played any role at all in the development of >the I Ching, >(remember - paper wasn't invented until 305AD, and didn't make it into >common use for a couple of centuries after that!), I can see why Fu Hsi >stopped at 64. Well, you sum it up pretty well. Assuming that paper had any effect on the origin of the Yi is quite ludicrous. However, pre-paper Yi Jings were written on strips of bamboo. Have you ever seen what they looked like? Perhaps there is something you could look at there. They were thin strips, tied together in a roll. Kirk vice | versa Translations from French to English, English to French Traductions francais-anglais, anglais-francais kirk@mcelhearn.com http://www.mcelhearn.com Kirk McElhearn | 91 rue de la Mesangerie | 37540 St Cyr sur Loire | France O=c=O O=c=O O=c=O O=c=O O=c=O O=c=O O=c=O O=c=O O=c=O O=c=O ONE PIXEL EQUALS ONE MOLECULE OF CO2 O=c=O O=c=O O=c=O O=c=O O=c=O O=c=O O=c=O O=c=O O=c=O O=c=O ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 01 Jan 2000 19:48:32 -0600 From: omei shan Subject: Re: HEX8: Paper Folding and the I Ching, II >I actually do the spectrum thing and chose red for the most yang and >violet for the most yin. 6 yang lines - red, 5 yang - pink, 4 yang - >orange, 3 yang - yellow, 2 yang - greem, 1 yang - blue, 0 yang - violet. > >I figured you would get it. > This is what I think so far - How close am I? It appears that the Fu Hsi layout attempts to mirror physical reality and/or properties, while the King Wen layout is based on visual pattern(s). Does that sound right to you? If that is indeed the case, what do you think he was trying to show us? >There's a lot more. > I'm game! >BTW, Have you read Katya Walter - the Tao of Chaos? > That very book is listed under recommended reading in my book! Wonderful stuff! This is just me, but I'm not 100% convinced that there is a correlation between the I Ching and DNA, just like I'm not convinced there's a correlation between the Kabbalah and the Tarot's Major Arcana. There's 24 beers in a case and 24 hours in a day, but you don't hear many people trying to show a relationship between those two. :-) Monica ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 01 Jan 2000 19:59:46 -0600 From: omei shan Subject: Re: HEX8: Paper Folding and the I Ching, III >Well, you sum it up pretty well. Assuming that paper had any effect on >the origin of the Yi is quite ludicrous. > This is interesting. Why? Why couldn't it have any effect? I've never seen ANY drawings of Fu Hsi with the full 8X8, I've only ever seen drawings of him with the 8 trigrams... Monica ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ End of hexagram-8-digest V1 #152 ******************************** From owner-hexagram-8-digest@apocalypse.org Wed Jan 5 11:21:03 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA17564 for hexagram-8-digest-outgoing; Wed, 5 Jan 2000 11:21:03 -0500 Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2000 11:21:03 -0500 Message-Id: <200001051621.LAA17564@apocalypse.org> X-Authentication-Warning: apocalypse.org: majordom set sender to owner-hexagram-8-digest@apocalypse.org using -f From: owner-hexagram-8-digest@apocalypse.org (hexagram-8-digest) To: hexagram-8-digest@apocalypse.org Subject: hexagram-8-digest V1 #153 Reply-To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Sender: owner-hexagram-8-digest@apocalypse.org Errors-To: owner-hexagram-8-digest@apocalypse.org Precedence: bulk hexagram-8-digest Wednesday, January 5 2000 Volume 01 : Number 153 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2000 18:35:45 -0800 From: osiris@pacinter.net (Scott Ransom) Subject: Re: HEX8: Paper Folding and the I Ching, II > There's 24 > beers in a case and 24 hours in a day, but you don't hear many people > trying to show a relationship between those two. :-) Well, what good is pointing out the obvious? Isn't a beer an hour standard operating procedure for everyone? Scott ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 01 Jan 2000 20:35:28 -0600 From: omei shan Subject: Re: HEX8: Paper Folding and the I Ching, II >Well, what good is pointing out the obvious? Isn't a beer an hour standard >operating procedure for everyone? > :-) Monica ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 02 Jan 2000 00:12:48 -0800 From: Ray Langley Subject: Re: HEX8: Paper Folding and the I Ching, II > > There's 24 > > beers in a case and 24 hours in a day, but you don't hear many people > > trying to show a relationship between those two. :-) > > Well, what good is pointing out the obvious? Isn't a beer an hour > standard operating procedure for everyone? > Scott ...maybe for you slackers... after all, there are 64 (hic!) hexagrams in a dhay... :-) Happy New Year everyone. - -- Warmest Regards, Ray Have Luo Pan, Will Travel! ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2000 16:26:49 +0000 From: kirk@mcelhearn.com (Kirk Mcelhearn) Subject: Re: HEX8: Paper Folding and the I Ching, III On 2/01/00 1:59, omei shan, omei@express-news.net, is reported to have said: > >>Well, you sum it up pretty well. Assuming that paper had any effect on >>the origin of the Yi is quite ludicrous. >> >This is interesting. Why? Why couldn't it have any effect? Well, since paper did not exist, and the Yi was not, at that time, on paper, ... Kirk vice | versa Translations from French to English, English to French Traductions francais-anglais, anglais-francais kirk@mcelhearn.com http://www.mcelhearn.com Kirk McElhearn | 91 rue de la Mesangerie | 37540 St Cyr sur Loire | France O=c=O O=c=O O=c=O O=c=O O=c=O O=c=O O=c=O CARBON-POWERED NETWORKS RUIN THE CLIMATE O=c=O O=c=O O=c=O O=c=O O=c=O O=c=O O=c=O ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2000 20:06:00 EST From: Fergust@aol.com Subject: Re: HEX8: Paper Folding and the I Ching, II Hi, I don't know if this is what you are looking for, but a few years ago, I tried something that proved very interesting. First of all I drew a circle and divided it with 64 lines. I placed the number of each Hexagrams around the circle in the book sequence from Wilhelms book (actually, I did this twice, once using the Book Sequence and once using the Binary sequence. Each gave unique results). I placed a pin at the junction of each line and the edge of the circle and one in the middle of the circle. I collected the King Wen Numbers (12 - 18) for each Hexagram, which is also related to the number of lines in each Hexagram, and decided on a color for each number (12 = white, 18 = black, 13 = blue, etc.) At this point I raided my wife's thread and began tying the related color thread from the center pin to the outer pin for each Hexagram. I failed the first time because I made my first circle too small. Once I enlarged the circle things went very quickly. Once it was completed, I could see patterns, designs and relationships that I never saw by just reading the text. If you try this or a similar method, I would advise using very bright colors and draw your circle on a paper that allows you to see the interrelations of the colors. It has been said that enlightenment comes to those that can leap past the logical and embrace the non-logical that dwells beyond the limits of our minds. Another way of saying this is that we learn when we allow learning to be fun, like using colored strings and paper. Tom ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2000 14:22:24 EST From: Autorbis@aol.com Subject: HEX8: Re: Chess 64 Squares another form of Yin-Yang Hi Sergio << Hi Lothar and Ely, I am copying you both because I never get anything posted on Hex-8. Just readig a copy of Scientific american today on mathematics, they mentioned chess. The game. After looking at Wilhelm's table for so long, I never realized that it looks exactly like a chess board with 64 squares. If you look at the chess board, it actually is a yin/yang grid. I am trying to figure out it there is a better way to place the 64 hexagrams on the square. Does anybody know what what was the basis Wilhelm used for this order, is there one, or is it random? Isn't this interesting? Imagine if there were a relationship between the figures. Like a game. Say for example the King that is mentioned, or the army. This has given me an idea. I am going to build my own board. I will place tha 64 hexagrams and place a couple of tokens. I will begin to see how they move, and if there is any relationship between the cycles. Any ideas? regards, Sergio >> Hi Sergio, somehow anything is yin + yang :-) Why not also a chess-board? Chinese chess is played at the lines, not the field, by this using a 9x9-grid instead of 8x8. Also it has no black and white fields. So only Western chess is in this way Yin+Yang. There are 64x63x62x60x56x48x32 "good arrangements" of hexagrams at a chess-board, if you do apply a special mathematical rule. The rule is, that 3 hexagrams ABC do define the position of a forth hexagram D at the chess-board. For instance: ABCDXXXX XXXXXXXX XXXXXXXX XXXXXXXX XXXXXXXX XXXXXXXX XXXXXXXX XXXXXXXX ABXXXXXX CDXXXXXX XXXXXXXX XXXXXXXX XXXXXXXX XXXXXXXX XXXXXXXX XXXXXXXX AXXXXXXB XXXXXXXX XXXXXXXX XXXXXXXX XXXXXXXX XXXXXXXX XXXXXXXX CXXXXXXD The mathematical rule is: If 3 equal lines (1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th or 6th) of 3 hexagrams ABC (marked with 1 and 0) ... add to 3, then D is 1 add to 2, then D is 0 add to 1, then D is 1 add to 0, then D is 0 When you build up the board like this, you'll detect the rules of the "magical-chess-board" :-) Much fun. I forwarded your post to hex.8 Hi Master of this group, Sergio seems to have trouble to send something to hexagram-8. Greetings Lothar ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2000 14:22:27 EST From: Autorbis@aol.com Subject: Re: HEX8: Paper Folding and the I Ching, II << >I actually do the spectrum thing and chose red for the most yang and >violet for the most yin. 6 yang lines - red, 5 yang - pink, 4 yang - >orange, 3 yang - yellow, 2 yang - greem, 1 yang - blue, 0 yang - violet. > >I figured you would get it. > >> There is more then one theory of colour. One (used in practical painting) orders colours like this: red is a base colour yellow is a base colour blue is a base colour orange develops from the addition of red + yellow violett develops from the addition of red + blue green develops from the addition of yellow + blue If you define now, that: 100 = red = thunder 010 = blue = water 001 = yellow = mountain (of course, perhaps you can define different) then: 110 = violett (100 + 010) = lake 101 = orange (100 + 001) = fire 011 = green (010 + 011) = wood, wind As 100 and 011 present the 1st line of the trigram, that is 1st + 4th of the hexagram, and 1st line is considered to be yang and 6th is considered to be yin and trigram-sons (= 100 + 010 + 001) are yang and trigram-daughters (011 + 101 + 110) are yin and that the other trigrams can be sorted under the same condition: 100 = thunder = 1st line = red 101 = fire = 2nd line = orange 001 = mountain = 3rd line = yellow 011 = wind = 4th line = green 010 = water = 5th line = blue 110 = lake = 6th line = violett Of course it's only one way, how to to do it .... :-) Lothar ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2000 14:34:12 -0800 (PST) From: cabeal Subject: HEX8: Coloring Ching I'll definitely try this! You bring in 2 more orders of complexity, one of which I've tried (trigrams colored, rather than whole hexagrams, yielding another set of patterns) and lines colored. Since each trigram can now have a background base color *and* 3 different colors of lines, you can now see an even more varied weave rather than the simply use of black and white. The meaning of the individual parts, hard to hold in mind for the average untutored mind like mine, is simpler to grasp as an *analog* to the symbolic representation of the elements. Thanks for the thought! cynthia cabeal@efn.org On Mon, 3 Jan 2000 Autorbis@aol.com wrote: > << >I actually do the spectrum thing and chose red for the most yang and > >violet for the most yin. 6 yang lines - red, 5 yang - pink, 4 yang - > >orange, 3 yang - yellow, 2 yang - greem, 1 yang - blue, 0 yang - violet. > > > >I figured you would get it. > > >> > > There is more then one theory of colour. One (used in practical painting) > orders colours like this: > > red is a base colour > yellow is a base colour > blue is a base colour > > orange develops from the addition of red + yellow > violett develops from the addition of red + blue > green develops from the addition of yellow + blue > > If you define now, that: > > 100 = red = thunder > 010 = blue = water > 001 = yellow = mountain > > (of course, perhaps you can define different) > > then: > > 110 = violett (100 + 010) = lake > 101 = orange (100 + 001) = fire > 011 = green (010 + 011) = wood, wind > > As 100 and 011 present the 1st line of the trigram, that is 1st + 4th of the > hexagram, and 1st line is considered to be yang and 6th is considered to be > yin and trigram-sons (= 100 + 010 + 001) are yang and trigram-daughters (011 > + 101 + 110) are yin and that the other trigrams can be sorted under the same > condition: > > 100 = thunder = 1st line = red > 101 = fire = 2nd line = orange > 001 = mountain = 3rd line = yellow > 011 = wind = 4th line = green > 010 = water = 5th line = blue > 110 = lake = 6th line = violett > > Of course it's only one way, how to to do it .... :-) > > Lothar > > > ===== > To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org > from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. > ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 03 Jan 2000 19:12:15 -0600 From: Charlie Higgins Subject: Re: HEX8: Coloring Ching cabeal wrote: > > I'll definitely try this! You bring in 2 more orders of complexity, one of > which I've tried (trigrams colored, rather than whole hexagrams, yielding > another set of patterns) and lines colored. Since each trigram can now > have a background base color *and* 3 different colors of lines, you can > now see an even more varied weave rather than the simply use of black and > white. The meaning of the individual parts, hard to hold in mind for the > average untutored mind like mine, is simpler to grasp as an *analog* to > the symbolic representation of the elements. > > Thanks for the thought! > Let me add that I have done some research indirectly with colors as well. Like Lothar my investigations are based on parallels between other philosophies and also represent the mingling of colors such as blue and red yeilding violet. The exception is that I did not arbitrarily assign colors. I use as a base the colors associated with the sephira of the Formative World of the Kabbalistic Tree of Life. This developed into a division of the upper trigram containing red, blue and yellow, and the lower trigram consisting of orange, green and violet. Those of you interested might want to review my article located at... http://www.Mension.com/del_3.htm I do not specifically discuss the colors; however, in each diagram I show the colors associated with each line of the hexagram. I also parallel the lines of the hexagram to the major arcana of the tarot plus present my personal views on the meanings of the lines of the hexagram in relation to human nature. Some of you may find it interesting... Charlie Higgins - ---------------------- Mensionization Complementation New Insights on Ancient Paradigms http://www.mension.com ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 03 Jan 2000 17:56:19 -0800 From: Ray Langley Subject: Re: HEX8: Coloring Ching > Let me add that I have done some research indirectly with colors as > well. Like Lothar my investigations are based on parallels between > other philosophies and also represent the mingling of colors such as > blue and red yeilding violet. The exception is that I did not > arbitrarily assign colors. I use as a base the colors associated with > the sephira of the Formative World of the Kabbalistic Tree of Life. > This developed into a division of the upper trigram containing red, blue > and yellow, and the lower trigram consisting of orange, green and > violet. Those of you interested might want to review my article > located at... > > http://www.Mension.com/del_3.htm > > I do not specifically discuss the colors; however, in each diagram I > show the colors associated with each line of the hexagram. I also > parallel the lines of the hexagram to the major arcana of the tarot plus > present my personal views on the meanings of the lines of the hexagram > in relation to human nature. Some of you may find it interesting... > > Charlie Higgins Hi Charlie. Has anyone investigated the electronic "Primary" colors of mixing RGB (Red-Green-Blue)? - -- Warmest Regards, Ray Have Luo Pan, Will Travel! ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 03 Jan 2000 20:03:12 -0600 From: Charlie Higgins Subject: Re: HEX8: Coloring Ching Ray Langley wrote: > > Hi Charlie. > Has anyone investigated the electronic "Primary" colors of mixing > RGB (Red-Green-Blue)? > -- > Warmest Regards, Ray > Have Luo Pan, Will Travel! > Not to my knowledge Ray... The problem I see with this is that 'green' is a mixture of colors, yellow and blue, not a major color like red, blue and yelloow. If anyone has any information on this I would like to know. Charlie - ---------------------- Mensionization Complementation New Insights on Ancient Paradigms http://www.mension.com ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2000 15:44:31 -0500 From: "Aquel" Subject: HEX8: The Omega effect... Hello all, As I usually do every beginning of the year, on the 1st of January I consulted the Yi to see what the year ahead has in store. Well, after so many years, the little sage hidden in the pages keeps surprising me... :-) You will soon see why I titled this message as I did. The answer hexagram, with NO MOVING lines and synchronicity to the max was "Hexagram 8" (as I type this I realize is the namesake of this list...). The answer is very good in itself but, and a BIG BUT at that, it suggest that you consult the Oracle one more time. So, I untied my yarrow stalks, again, and off I went for the suggested answer. Lo and behold, it replied as follow: 968889 (Hex-27) Which as we change the moving lines give us: 878888 (Hex-7)!! A full loop back to give us the other leg of Omega in the 7 & 8 pair of Hexagrams! Needless to say, I am still laughing about it... :-) Cheers, Luis Andrade _ _ /_\ __ _ _ _ ___| | //_\\ / _` | | | |/ _ \ | / _ \ (_| | |_| | __/ | \_/ \_/\__, |\__,_|\___|_| |_| ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2000 16:10:36 -0500 From: "Aquel" Subject: HEX8: Labyrinths, Paths and Patterns Since one of the subjects of the last few days has been the one of finding interesting visual patterns based on the I Ching, be it by paper folding or by applying colours to the trigrams and lines, here is something interesting I did many years ago. My goal was to have a convenient way to depict all the Hexagrams in a small piece of paper that I could put in my wallet. One simple way to do this is by using a paper tape calculator and start entering all the hexagrams by using 9's and 6's as the lines (i.e. 999999, 666666, etc.) and hitting the + key after each completed hexagram. However something interesting surfaced when I tried another approach. I took a piece of "squared" paper and substituted Yang lines for a "forward slash" (/) and Yin lines for a "backward slash" (\), building the hexagrams from bottom to top, as usual, and in consecutive columns of squares (so they would all stay together and no column gaps in between). Once you have a "ribbon" of Hexagrams, look for patterns. One beautifully symmetrical one appears with four hexagrams (37,38,39 and 40), which is the only case, using this method, in which a symmetrical pattern of 4 hexagrams appears in the Kin Wen sequence. If you want to explore an interesting labyrinth, cut the ribbon in two equal halves (1-32 and 33-64) and place the second one beneath the first. I am sure you will enjoy following the unbroken paths between the hexagrams as well as the abrupt endings to some of those paths. All the best, Luis Andrade _ _ /_\ __ _ _ _ ___| | //_\\ / _` | | | |/ _ \ | / _ \ (_| | |_| | __/ | \_/ \_/\__, |\__,_|\___|_| |_| ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2000 16:55:08 -0700 From: "Schmidt, Walter." Subject: RE: HEX8: Re: Chess 64 Squares another form of Yin-Yang Regarding the chess board discussion, I have a vague recollection of a reference in a book called "The Pristine Yi Ching" by one of Aleicster Crowley's followers, to a western chess-related method of consulting the I Ching. It involved assigning each square a hexagram, and the reading being taken from the square on which the losing king was mated. No moving lines or second hexagram. I haven't tried it but the idea doesn't offend me. ws > -----Original Message----- > From: Autorbis@aol.com [SMTP:Autorbis@aol.com] > Sent: Monday, January 03, 2000 1:22 PM > To: bir187@hotmail.com > Cc: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org > Subject: HEX8: Re: Chess 64 Squares another form of Yin-Yang > > Hi Sergio > > << Hi Lothar and Ely, > > I am copying you both because I never get anything posted on Hex-8. > > Just readig a copy of Scientific american today on mathematics, they > mentioned chess. The game. After looking at Wilhelm's table for so > long, I > never realized that it looks exactly like a chess board with > 64 squares. If you look at the chess board, it actually is a yin/yang > grid. > > I am trying to figure out it there is a better way to place the 64 > hexagrams > on the square. Does anybody know what what was the basis Wilhelm used > for > this order, is there one, or is it random? > > Isn't this interesting? Imagine if there were a relationship between the > > figures. Like a game. Say for example the King that is mentioned, or > the > army. > > This has given me an idea. I am going to build my own board. I will > place > tha 64 hexagrams and place a couple of tokens. I will begin to see how > they > move, and if there is any relationship between the cycles. Any ideas? > > regards, > > > Sergio >> > > Hi Sergio, > > somehow anything is yin + yang :-) Why not also a chess-board? Chinese > chess > is played at the lines, not the field, by this using a 9x9-grid instead of > > 8x8. Also it has no black and white fields. So only Western chess is in > this > way Yin+Yang. > > There are 64x63x62x60x56x48x32 "good arrangements" of hexagrams at a > chess-board, if you do apply a special mathematical rule. The rule is, > that 3 > hexagrams ABC do define the position of a forth hexagram D at the > chess-board. > > For instance: > > ABCDXXXX > XXXXXXXX > XXXXXXXX > XXXXXXXX > XXXXXXXX > XXXXXXXX > XXXXXXXX > XXXXXXXX > > ABXXXXXX > CDXXXXXX > XXXXXXXX > XXXXXXXX > XXXXXXXX > XXXXXXXX > XXXXXXXX > XXXXXXXX > > AXXXXXXB > XXXXXXXX > XXXXXXXX > XXXXXXXX > XXXXXXXX > XXXXXXXX > XXXXXXXX > CXXXXXXD > > The mathematical rule is: > If 3 equal lines (1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th or 6th) of 3 hexagrams ABC > (marked > with 1 and 0) ... > > add to 3, then D is 1 > add to 2, then D is 0 > add to 1, then D is 1 > add to 0, then D is 0 > > When you build up the board like this, you'll detect the rules of the > "magical-chess-board" :-) Much fun. > > I forwarded your post to hex.8 > > Hi Master of this group, > Sergio seems to have trouble to send something to hexagram-8. > > Greetings > > Lothar > > > ===== > To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org > from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 04 Jan 2000 23:45:49 -0600 From: omei shan Subject: Re: HEX8: Paper Folding and the I Ching, III >>>Well, you sum it up pretty well. Assuming that paper had any effect on >>>the origin of the Yi is quite ludicrous. >>> >>This is interesting. Why? Why couldn't it have any effect? > >Well, since paper did not exist, and the Yi was not, at that time, on >paper, ... > I agree that paper as we know it did not exist at the time. We just have to assume the timing of the legends is correct. However, I do think that paper folding influenced the DEVELOPMENT of what we call the Fu Hsi arrangement. Within the bounds of the 8X8, the layout forms what I believe is called a "magic square," where the numbers are laid out in a manner that produces certain results. The relationship of the sections to each other remains the same whether one chooses 4 or 100. Monica ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 04 Jan 2000 23:53:21 -0600 From: omei shan Subject: Re: HEX8: Paper Folding and the I Ching, II > I don't know if this is what you are looking for, but a few years ago, I > tried something that proved very interesting. > Most excellent! I've always felt that true understanding of the I Ching would come from some from of physical manipulation of a layout, as opposed to a purely cerebral study of it. This ties in so perfectly with my favorite "ancient Chinese saying:" I hear and forget. I see and remember. I do and understand. I'm going to try this! Can you give a few more details? Example: How large should the circle be? Monica ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 05 Jan 2000 00:19:39 -0600 From: omei shan Subject: Re: HEX8: Coloring Ching What I would like to try is to use the 64 shades of gray that were used by NASA many years ago when they were first transmitting data. Does anyone know where I can get those shadings, or even better, how I can set them myself? Monica ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 05 Jan 2000 11:06:51 +0000 From: Andreas Schoter Subject: HEX8: The role of oral traditions in the Yi Hi Folks, To pick up on a pre-holiday thread... In some messages last year Ken Rose said that there was an oral tradition to the Yi and that without a knowledge of the information given by that tradition, knowledge of the Yi was unavoidably partial. Given that I have no knowledge of these traditions I cannot comment upon them directly; but, bearing that in mind, I'm interested in Ken's reaction to the following passage in the Great Treatise: Chapter XII, verse 2. The Master said: writing cannot express words completely. Words cannot express thoughts completely. Are we then unable to see the thoughts of the holy sages? The Master said: the holy sages set up the images in order to express their thoughts completely; they devised the hexagrams in order to express the true and false completely. Then they appended judgements and so could express their words completely. This seems to me to indicate that the authors of the Yi consider it to be complete and self-contained. All the Best Andreas ________________________________________________________________________ Dr Andreas Schöter Weft mailto:andreas@telinco.co.uk http://www.weft.telinco.co.uk ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2000 06:13:45 -0600 From: "jayem" Subject: Re: HEX8: The role of oral traditions in the Yi Hi Andreas, > The Master said: the holy sages set up the images in order to express their > thoughts completely; they devised the hexagrams in order to express the > true and false completely. Then they appended judgements and so could > express their words completely. > This seems to me to indicate that the authors of the Yi consider it to be > complete and self-contained. So the images came first, then the hexagrams, and lastly the judgements. What are the images that the hexagrams are based on? Best to you too, ~Jay~ ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2000 06:46:12 -0600 From: "jayem" Subject: Re: HEX8: Re: Chess 64 Squares another form of Yin-Yang Hey Walter, > Regarding the chess board discussion, I have a vague recollection of a > reference in a book called "The Pristine Yi Ching" by one of Aleicster > Crowley's followers, to a western chess-related method of consulting the I > Ching. It involved assigning each square a hexagram, and the reading being > taken from the square on which the losing king was mated. No moving lines > or second hexagram. I haven't tried it but the idea doesn't offend me. ws Vaguely is the best way to recall "The Pristine Yi King", but his chess method is interesting. He assigns hexagrams to the chess board by the Fu Hsi arrangement-- he considers King Wen a "Johnny-come-lately". The 6 different chess pieces represent the six lines of the hexagram: pawns=1st line, knights=2nd, bishops=3rd, rooks=4th, king=5th, and queen=6th. "The square held by the piece that checkmates the king is the oracular hexagram to your question. The square being held by the checkmated king gives the hexagram an indication of how and where your project or other person is most vulnerable." Intriguing. Maybe you could use the checkmating piece as the changing line. Ciao, ~Jay~ ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2000 12:14:51 -0200 From: "Jorge" Subject: Re: HEX8: Re: Chess 64 Squares another form of Yin-Yang Hi all (I'm back after a long interregnum) Regarding the chess 'consulting method' I don't see how can it work because: 1) Randomness is a key factor in any use of the Yi as an oracle and a chess game is not exactly random. 2) If you relate each square with an hexagram, the consultant will have obvious influence in the area of the board to which will direct the king. The same can be said about the checkmaking piece. Tchau Jorge Vulibrun Florianopolis, Brasil jorgevul@newsite.com.br - -----Mensagem original----- De: jayem Para: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Data: Quarta-feira, 5 de Janeiro de 2000 09:54 Assunto: Re: HEX8: Re: Chess 64 Squares another form of Yin-Yang >Hey Walter, > >> Regarding the chess board discussion, I have a vague recollection of a >> reference in a book called "The Pristine Yi Ching" by one of Aleicster >> Crowley's followers, to a western chess-related method of consulting the I >> Ching. It involved assigning each square a hexagram, and the reading >being >> taken from the square on which the losing king was mated. No moving lines >> or second hexagram. I haven't tried it but the idea doesn't offend me. >ws > >Vaguely is the best way to recall "The Pristine Yi King", but his chess >method is interesting. He assigns hexagrams to the chess board by the Fu >Hsi arrangement-- >he considers King Wen a "Johnny-come-lately". The 6 different chess pieces >represent the six lines of the hexagram: pawns=1st line, knights=2nd, >bishops=3rd, >rooks=4th, king=5th, and queen=6th. > >"The square held by the piece that checkmates the king is the oracular >hexagram to your question. The square being held by the checkmated king >gives the hexagram an indication of how and where your project or other >person is most vulnerable." > >Intriguing. Maybe you could use the checkmating piece as the changing line. > >Ciao, >~Jay~ > > > >===== >To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org >from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. > > ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2000 07:58:06 -0700 From: "Schmidt, Walter." Subject: RE: HEX8: Re: Chess 64 Squares another form of Yin-Yang Jorge, you wrote: "Regarding the chess 'consulting method' I don't see how can it work because: 1) Randomness is a key factor in any use of the Yi as an oracle and a chess game is not exactly random. 2) If you relate each square with an hexagram, the consultant will have obvious influence in the area of the board to which will direct the king. The same can be said about the checkmaking piece." I don't disagree with either of your observations and I'm not advocating using the "Pristine Yi Ching" chess method. I'm happy with stalks, coins, and colored beads. However, I can think of a number of ways to overcome the objections you raised. For instance, the assignment of the hexagrams to each square could be completely at random and unknown before the game starts. Or the game being played could be one between two people who do not know the significance of the mating square. Or the game could be the weekly game chosen for review by the chess commentator for the NY Times or other newspaper. (In that case, since most of those games end in resignations before mate, a computer could play the game out to a checkmate finish.) There would seem to be lots of ways to introduce the necessary randomness. Other than the novelty of the approach though, I'm not sure why one would bother. ws ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2000 23:10:12 +0800 (HKT) From: Roland Ng Subject: RE: HEX8: Re: Chess 64 Squares another form of Yin-Yang Using the method of throwing 3 coins 6 times is the most traditional, well-known, easiest and powerful. If you can chinese, you can go to http://uccic.com, it is Java demo of assigning earth element to the hexagrams. from Roland ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2000 08:37:14 -0700 From: "Schmidt, Walter." Subject: HEX8: Yet another I Ching software program For those who track such things, there is a shareware program for the Palm Pilot personal information manager called the "Digital Dragon I Ching." One "tosses" coins by tapping the screen with a stylus and a hexagram with moving lines is formed on the left side of the screen. The resultant hexagram is formed on the right side of the screen. Tapping above either hexagram gives a short judgement, based on the Wilhelm/Baynes translation. (I'm not sure if there are copyright issues.) Tapping on the moving lines gives the W/B reading for the line. It's very bare bone, like most things for the Palm Pilots, but does the job. ws ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 05 Jan 2000 07:44:07 -0800 From: wayne_rebecca Subject: Re: HEX8: Re: Chess 64 Squares another form of Yin-Yang Jorge wrote: > > Hi all (I'm back after a long interregnum) > > Regarding the chess 'consulting method' I don't see how can it work because: > > 1) Randomness is a key factor in any use of the Yi as an oracle and a chess > game is not exactly random. Hi, It might be interesting to note that the "Golden Dawn" magical group has a history of using a variant of the chess game as an oracular device. The randomness is achieved by the players not focusing on the divination aspect, but on the question, and letting the "game" do what it will... see this url http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0875428959/qid%3D947087165/002-9182894-5985024 wayne - -- Wayne & Rebecca Lowry Springfield, Oregon wayne_rebecca@iname.com http://www.excelir.com/cgi-bin/excelir.storefront/irhomesite/REBECCA ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2000 23:53:20 +0800 (HKT) From: Roland Ng Subject: Re: HEX8: Yet another I Ching software program On Wed, 5 Jan 2000, Schmidt, Walter. wrote: > For those who track such things, there is a shareware program for the Palm > Pilot personal information manager called the "Digital Dragon I Ching." One > "tosses" coins by tapping the screen with a stylus and a hexagram with > moving lines is formed on the left side of the screen. The resultant > hexagram is formed on the right side of the screen. Tapping above either > hexagram gives a short judgement, based on the Wilhelm/Baynes translation. > (I'm not sure if there are copyright issues.) Tapping on the moving lines > gives the W/B reading for the line. But I think probably this software will not add earth element for each yin or yang. The judgement may not be useful since I think we cannot use mechanical methods to interpret hexagrams. Like Tarot, we need to have personal feeling about the Tarot and each person may have different personal feeling to each card. As a conclusiong, this means the software is just making yin and yang stroke. from Roland ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2000 17:05:04 +0000 From: kirk@mcelhearn.com (Kirk Mcelhearn) Subject: Re: HEX8: The role of oral traditions in the Yi On 5/01/00 12:13, jayem, jayem@seark.net, is reported to have said: >> The Master said: the holy sages set up the images in order to express >their >> thoughts completely; they devised the hexagrams in order to express the >> true and false completely. Then they appended judgements and so could >> express their words completely. >> This seems to me to indicate that the authors of the Yi consider it to be >> complete and self-contained. > >So the images came first, then the hexagrams, and lastly the judgements. >What are the images that the hexagrams are based on? No way!!!! The lines came first, then the heaxgrams, and judgments, and then the images, much later. Kirk vice | versa Translations from French to English, English to French Traductions francais-anglais, anglais-francais kirk@mcelhearn.com http://www.mcelhearn.com Kirk McElhearn | 91 rue de la Mesangerie | 37540 St Cyr sur Loire | France O=c=O O=c=O O=c=O O=c=O O=c=O O=c=O O=c=O O=c=O FOSSIL FUELS = HEAVY WEATHER O=c=O O=c=O O=c=O O=c=O O=c=O O=c=O O=c=O O=c=O ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2000 17:23:40 +0000 From: kirk@mcelhearn.com (Kirk Mcelhearn) Subject: RE: HEX8: Re: Chess 64 Squares another form of Yin-Yang On 5/01/00 15:10, Roland Ng, roland@hkstd2.hkstandard.com, is reported to have said: >Using the method of throwing 3 coins 6 times is the most traditional, >well-known, easiest and powerful. If you can chinese, you can go to >http://uccic.com, it is Java demo of assigning earth element to the >hexagrams. If you mean that most traditional is the oldest, you are wrong. Yarrow stalk divination is much older, and, of course, tortoise shell and other oracle bone divination predate that by a few millenia.... Kirk vice | versa Translations from French to English, English to French Traductions francais-anglais, anglais-francais kirk@mcelhearn.com http://www.mcelhearn.com Kirk McElhearn | 91 rue de la Mesangerie | 37540 St Cyr sur Loire | France O=c=O O=c=O O=c=O O=c=O O=c=O O=c=O O=c=O O=c=O FOSSIL FUELS = HEAVY WEATHER O=c=O O=c=O O=c=O O=c=O O=c=O O=c=O O=c=O O=c=O ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ End of hexagram-8-digest V1 #153 ******************************** From owner-hexagram-8-digest@apocalypse.org Thu Jan 6 12:04:36 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA16726 for hexagram-8-digest-outgoing; Thu, 6 Jan 2000 12:04:36 -0500 Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2000 12:04:36 -0500 Message-Id: <200001061704.MAA16726@apocalypse.org> X-Authentication-Warning: apocalypse.org: majordom set sender to owner-hexagram-8-digest@apocalypse.org using -f From: owner-hexagram-8-digest@apocalypse.org (hexagram-8-digest) To: hexagram-8-digest@apocalypse.org Subject: hexagram-8-digest V1 #154 Reply-To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Sender: owner-hexagram-8-digest@apocalypse.org Errors-To: owner-hexagram-8-digest@apocalypse.org Precedence: bulk hexagram-8-digest Thursday, January 6 2000 Volume 01 : Number 154 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2000 10:01:13 -0700 From: "Schmidt, Walter." Subject: RE: HEX8: Yet another I Ching software program Roland, you wrote: "I think probably this software will not add earth element for each yin or yang. The judgement may not be useful since I think we cannot use mechanical methods to interpret hexagrams. Like Tarot, we need to have personal feeling about the Tarot and each person may have different personal feeling to each card." I don't know what you mean by "adding the earth element" and "mechanical methods to interpret the hexagrams." First, I simply don't understand what "adding the earth element" means in this context. Second, the program doesn't use a mechanical means to interpret the hexagrams, it uses a (presumably) random method to generate the hexagrams and then shows the W/B material for the hexagrams generated. Interpretation is left to the reader, just like the book method we grew up with. With regard to personal feelings for the hexagrams, I certainly agree that people develop feelings for the different hexagrams, but unless one simply doesn't care for the procedure used, (stalks/coins/beads/chess games/software/license plates) the feeling for the hexagram generated shouldn't change. I really think in large part it is what procedures one develops a comfort level with. I have personally found generating hexagrams using the Palm Pilot to be something that resonates with me. I am also comfortable with some of the other on-line and CD ROM methods. Of course, not all are of good quality, but you find the same problem in I Ching books of varying quality. Or maybe I'm misunderstanding what you're getting at. ws > -----Original Message----- > From: Roland Ng [SMTP:roland@hkstd2.hkstandard.com] > Sent: Wednesday, January 05, 2000 9:53 AM > To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org > Subject: Re: HEX8: Yet another I Ching software program > > On Wed, 5 Jan 2000, Schmidt, Walter. wrote: > > For those who track such things, there is a shareware program for the > Palm > > Pilot personal information manager called the "Digital Dragon I Ching." > One > > "tosses" coins by tapping the screen with a stylus and a hexagram with > > moving lines is formed on the left side of the screen. The resultant > > hexagram is formed on the right side of the screen. Tapping above > either > > hexagram gives a short judgement, based on the Wilhelm/Baynes > translation. > > (I'm not sure if there are copyright issues.) Tapping on the moving > lines > > gives the W/B reading for the line. > But I think probably this software will not add earth element for each > yin or yang. The judgement may not be useful since I think we cannot use > mechanical methods to interpret hexagrams. Like Tarot, we need to have > personal feeling about the Tarot and each person may have different > personal feeling to each card. > > As a conclusiong, this means the software is just making yin and yang > stroke. > > from > Roland > > > ===== > To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org > from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 05 Jan 2000 12:27:25 -0800 From: Ron Hale-Evans Subject: Re: HEX8: Yet another I Ching software program At 08:37 AM 1/5/00 -0700, you wrote: >For those who track such things, there is a shareware program for the Palm >Pilot personal information manager called the "Digital Dragon I Ching." One >"tosses" coins by tapping the screen with a stylus and a hexagram with >moving lines is formed on the left side of the screen. The resultant >hexagram is formed on the right side of the screen. Tapping above either >hexagram gives a short judgement, based on the Wilhelm/Baynes translation. >(I'm not sure if there are copyright issues.) Tapping on the moving lines >gives the W/B reading for the line. > >It's very bare bone, like most things for the Palm Pilots, but does the job. >ws IMHO, it does *not* do the job. As an experiment, I cast about twenty sets of hexagrams. I would frequently get the same hexagrams several times in a row. Digital Dragon is not random or even pseudo-random. It does not use simulated coins or yarrow, but its own idiosyncratic method that yields very poor results. A month or two ago I wrote my own Palm I Ching program. It was pretty bare bones, but it did "do the job." However, it was too easy to use -- the I Ching "requested" that I not continue work on it. I have to agree, now that I have thought about it. Can you imagine an E-Z I Ching for the PalmPilot? People would be asking it whether they should cross the street... My "palm" (not Palm) I Ching is still three pennies and a copy of Wilhelm-Baynes. Ron - -- Ron Hale-Evans: rwhe@apocalypse.org ... Center for Ludic Synergy: Kennexions GBG artgame: Hexagram-8 I Ching Mailing List: Positive Revolution FAQ: ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 05 Jan 2000 12:31:26 -0800 From: Ron Hale-Evans Subject: RE: HEX8: Yet another I Ching software program At 10:01 AM 1/5/00 -0700, you wrote: > Roland, you wrote: "I think probably this software will not add >earth element for each > yin or yang. The judgement may not be useful since I think we cannot >use > mechanical methods to interpret hexagrams. Like Tarot, we need to >have > personal feeling about the Tarot and each person may have different > personal feeling to each card." > >I don't know what you mean by "adding the earth element" and "mechanical >methods to interpret the hexagrams." > >First, I simply don't understand what "adding the earth element" means in >this context. I think Roland might mean that the casting procedure is not "grounded" in a peaceful, somber moment, the way even a coin casting can be, to say nothing of yarrow. If so, Roland, I agree. >Second, the program doesn't use a mechanical means to interpret the >hexagrams, it uses a (presumably) random method to generate the hexagrams >and then shows the W/B material for the hexagrams generated. It's not random; it's very, very far from random, as I mentioned in my last post. The same hexagrams, over and over again. Try it for yourself. Ron - -- Ron Hale-Evans: rwhe@apocalypse.org ... Center for Ludic Synergy: Kennexions GBG artgame: Hexagram-8 I Ching Mailing List: Positive Revolution FAQ: ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2000 14:37:01 -0700 From: "Schmidt, Walter." Subject: RE: HEX8: Yet another I Ching software program Ron, you wrote: It's not random; it's very, very far from random, as I mentioned in my last post. The same hexagrams, over and over again. Try it for yourself. Thanks for the post. I have been somewhat suspicious of the randomness as well, since I was getting more than the "normal" duplicative hexagrams. Rats. I kinda liked that little program. As to the other issue, I'm not convinced one can't have contemplative moments in front of a computer or Pilot screen. I'm sure that there were (and are) folks who believe(d) that moving from stalks to coins was a travesty because the time involved in the meditation was shortened so much and one's hands were touching metal that had been shaped by humans as opposed to vegetable matter grown "naturally. ws ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 05 Jan 2000 14:38:10 -0800 From: Ron Hale-Evans Subject: RE: HEX8: Yet another I Ching software program At 02:37 PM 1/5/00 -0700, you wrote: > Ron, you wrote: > It's not random; it's very, very far from random, as I mentioned in >my last > post. The same hexagrams, over and over again. Try it for yourself. > >Thanks for the post. I have been somewhat suspicious of the randomness as >well, since I was getting more than the "normal" duplicative hexagrams. >Rats. I kinda liked that little program. > >As to the other issue, I'm not convinced one can't have contemplative >moments in front of a computer or Pilot screen. I'm sure that there were >(and are) folks who believe(d) that moving from stalks to coins was a >travesty because the time involved in the meditation was shortened so much >and one's hands were touching metal that had been shaped by humans as >opposed to vegetable matter grown "naturally. ws Well, it seems as though one might be able to _force_ a contemplative moment -- one could require that the user wait 30 seconds for each line, then tap a button -- but if it only takes one tap of a button on screen to generate a hexagram, the user can easily generate two or three hexagram pairs a second, which is hardly conducive to contemplation, I think you'll agree. :-) We are like our ancestors in that we still do things on a human scale. It takes a while to generate a hexagram even with coins. I'm not afraid of computers (I did program the I Ching application), and I think you can have a fruitful I Ching encounter with a computer, because I have done so many times, but to have an I Ching in your pocket that you can take out on the spur of the moment and frivolously ask what you should have for dessert -- that's too much. That's disrespectful, and it will only hurt _you_. I say this only after consulting the I Ching on the matter; relying on my merely human wisdom was what made me hack up the application in the first place. If you like, I can find the reading I received and we can discuss it on-list. Happy 2000 to everyone, by the way! And, may I add, happy Mungday 3166 to my Discordian friends! Ron - -- Ron Hale-Evans: rwhe@apocalypse.org ... Center for Ludic Synergy: Kennexions GBG artgame: Hexagram-8 I Ching Mailing List: Positive Revolution FAQ: ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 05 Jan 2000 14:49:16 -0600 From: Ken Rose Subject: Re: HEX8: The role of oral traditions in the Yi Hi Andreas, Happy New Year to you and to everyone on the list! I've been away for the holidays and am somewhat overwhelmed by the amount of traffic on the list in the past few weeks. I decided to reply to this post first since it's a question posed to me. I'm not sure I can add anything to the discussion about time and space since I don't know what time and space are. > > To pick up on a pre-holiday thread... > > In some messages last year Ken Rose said that there was an oral tradition > to the Yi and that without a knowledge of the information given by that > tradition, knowledge of the Yi was unavoidably partial. I believe that what I said earlier is that there is a dimension of the Chinese literary tradition which is not ever written down. This oral tradition can be divided into two categories: 1) orally transmitted teachings 2) the wordless teaching #2 clearly defies discussion, although, surprisingly one can approach it with words. We've got a book in preparation on this very subject. One important apsect of this dimension of traditional Chinese thinking is the requirement of personal cultivation. That is to say, one must not only study the teachings but engage in the process of personal cultivation and refinement of ideas and concepts before those ideas and concepts begin to take their individual shape and meaning. Thus the completion of meaning can never take place in the written text but only in the minds and lives of those who read and use them. This idea lies at the heart of the Confucian classic, Da Xue, often translated as The Great Learning (q.v.) I believe this is altogether pertinent to the question you've posed, since the "master" referred to in the quotation you cite is Confucius himself. Therefore the substance and implications of the Confucian context must be taken into consideration in order to glean the meaning of the passage. Beyond the Confucian context, there is the context of the Chinese written language itself. Classical, i.e. ancient Chinese, is a language deeply rooted in visualization, i.e. in the imagery of thought and ideas. A picture is not just worth a thousand words, it supplants those words. Therefore the process of transliterating pictures into words is a delicate and complex one. The earliest Chinese words are pictures of objects, depictions of dynamic relationships between objects, considerations about those relationships, and so on...all recorded by means of a set of abstract visual symbols. There is a lengthy discussion of this aspect of the Chinese language in the first chapter of our book, Who Can Ride the Dragon? So I'll leave it at that for now. It is my belief that this trait of Chinese has engendered a distinct way of looking at and thinking about the world over the past several thousand years. This in and of itself implies that there is something about all old Chinese texts that is either sub-textual or super-textual, depending upon how you look at it. This is especially relevant, I believe, when dealing with such ancient material in translation. > Given that I have no knowledge of these traditions I cannot comment upon > them directly; but, bearing that in mind, I'm interested in Ken's reaction > to the following passage in the Great Treatise: > > Chapter XII, verse 2. > > The Master said: writing cannot express words completely. Words cannot > express thoughts completely. > > Are we then unable to see the thoughts of the holy sages? > > The Master said: the holy sages set up the images in order to express their > thoughts completely; they devised the hexagrams in order to express the > true and false completely. Then they appended judgements and so could > express their words completely. > > This seems to me to indicate that the authors of the Yi consider it to be > complete and self-contained. Beyond what I've already said, I'd add that it is often the case with ancient Chinese materials that they contain such assertions of completeness. The Taiji classics, for example, contain lines which caution the reader that "if you do not study in this fashion then you will waste your time and sigh." However, without oral instruction, one has little hope of ever developing any sense at all of what "this fashion" is. This is not to say that the words are not "complete". I think we should also keep in mind that the Yi Jing is a heterodox tradition and not a homogenous, orthodox one. There are different versions, different interpretations, in short, different "completenesses" all existing under the moniker of the Yi Jing. Should we consider that the one that Wilhelm learned is the right one? Making other, by implication, wrong? This is the sort of sophistry that haunts Chinese scholarship throughout the ages. The practical aspect of the transmission of any text over thousands and thousands of years, particularly in a language in which the addition or deletion of a single stroke of the writing brush completely changes the meaning of a word, more or less obviates the notion of any text ever being considered "complete." Besides, if it were "complete" in some absolute sense, it would not permit such lively discussion all aimed at "completing" the understanding of it. Would it? My sense is that the text is best understood as a set of conceptual tools. Tools work (or they don't) depending upon our understanding of their design, intended use, and importantly upon our experience in using them. They also require continual updating to fit them to the job at hand. Here, I believe, we face one of the greatest challenges of studying the Yi Jing as well as other ancient Chinese traditions. Best, Ken ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 05 Jan 2000 15:07:31 -0600 From: Ken Rose Subject: Re: HEX8: The role of oral traditions in the Yi Hi Jay, Based upon your post and the one from Kirk, I'd say we're perilously close to falling into a translation hole. It seems we've got two definitions of "image" working at cross purposes. You asked what are the images on which the hexagrams are based. I believe the answer to that question is they are the primordial images of the three realms of existence, heaven, earth, and humankind, when they are viewed through the lens of yin and yang. This mathematical limit, i.e. two to the third power, provides the origin of the ba gua. The hexagrams develop from folding these eight primordial images into two-fold (i.e. second power) images: the sixty-four hexagrams. It seems to me that Kirk's remark regarding the later appearance of "the images" referes to that portion of the text of the Yi Jing (for example as it appears in the Wilhelm/Baynes translation) that is labeled "The Image". I may be wrong about this, but that's how it seems to me looking over the posts. Ken jayem wrote: > Hi Andreas, > > > The Master said: the holy sages set up the images in order to express > their > > thoughts completely; they devised the hexagrams in order to express the > > true and false completely. Then they appended judgements and so could > > express their words completely. > > This seems to me to indicate that the authors of the Yi consider it to be > > complete and self-contained. > > So the images came first, then the hexagrams, and lastly the judgements. > What are the images that the hexagrams are based on? > > Best to you too, > ~Jay~ > > ===== > To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org > from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2000 16:26:53 -0700 From: "Schmidt, Walter." Subject: RE: HEX8: Yet another I Ching software program Ron, you wrote: "Well, it seems as though one might be able to _force_ a contemplative moment -- one could require that the user wait 30 seconds for each line, then tap a button -- but if it only takes one tap of a button on screen to generate a hexagram, the user can easily generate two or three hexagram pairs a second, which is hardly conducive to contemplation, I think you'll agree. :-)" Just for clarification, the program generates a line for each tap, but, of course, does so very quickly, so one could generate a reading in a matter of 2 seconds, hardly conducive to contemplation. On the other hand, in a totally unscientific experiment, I just generated a hexagram by tossing coins six times with one hand while notating the results with the other, in 24 seconds. Not exactly contemplative either. It's not a matter of "forcing" oneself to be contemplative, it's choosing whether or not to be. I've used the stalks at time when I was distracted and the results reflected it: no doubt that you get what you put into it. And I agree that the purpose in any case is not to have a computer to take out of your pocket and ask what to have for dessert. If I implied anything like that, I didn't mean to. I do like the idea, however, of a casual visit to the I Ching, not necessarily associated with asking a question, that one can do when one finds oneself with an unexpected quiet moment in the middle of a busy day. Something similar, I guess, to how another person might read a verse from the Bible or the Koran at random. It brings a moment of comfort or resonance as a reminder of part of one's world view. And since I grew up on the W/B translation, I liked the idea of the Palm Pilot version using that, even if in a very abbreviated version. Especially since I have the Pilot with me all the time and I don't carry around a copy of the I Ching. Gosh, I've lurked here for nearly two years and I've send more messages in the last two days than in all the previous time put together. Must be millennial. ws ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2000 20:46:23 EST From: RCol547987@aol.com Subject: Re: HEX8: The role of oral traditions in the Yi In a message dated 1/5/00 5:49:52 PM, yulong@mindspring.com writes: << I think we should also keep in mind that the Yi Jing is a heterodox tradition and not a homogenous, orthodox one. There are different versions, different interpretations, in short, different "completenesses" all existing under the moniker of the Yi Jing. Should we consider that the one that Wilhelm learned is the right one? Making other, by implication, wrong? >> Hi Ken. Thank you for this clear, and balanced opinion. I am enjoying you posts emensely! I believe that this statement is not just limited to the Yi but can be applied to al aspects of thought -- I don't any two people see anything exactly the same way as we are all unique. The best we can do is give our own interpretations (definitions) of the ten thousand things and have "yi" for others' opinions. There is no right way or wrong way, only your way an the others' way. I feel this is a valuable and valid point and can end so much needless squabbling. On a differnt topic -- but somewhat related to language and the Yi jing: My friend and colleague Stephen Selby who is a research writer/attorney in Hong Kong recently wrote a book titled Chinese Archery (Hong Kong University Press (ISBN 962 209 501 1). In the book there are many references to the Yi and archery as it relates to battle strategies via divination. If you have time, please check it out. In peace, Roy (still weak from recent surgery.) ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2000 09:54:26 +0800 (HKT) From: Roland Ng Subject: RE: HEX8: Yet another I Ching software program On Wed, 5 Jan 2000, Schmidt, Walter. wrote: > First, I simply don't understand what "adding the earth element" means in > this context. For predicting using I Ching, we can add earth elements and family elements to each yin and yang and make further explanation. Usually non-chinese will not know this up to now, I cannot see any non-chinese books saying about that. You can treat it as another alternative of I-Ching prediction. > Second, the program doesn't use a mechanical means to interpret the > hexagrams, it uses a (presumably) random method to generate the hexagrams > and then shows the W/B material for the hexagrams generated. Interpretation > is left to the reader, just like the book method we grew up with. It has not described in the first email description of the program that it will generate the hexagram randomly. So, I miss that point. from Roland ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2000 09:59:51 +0800 (HKT) From: Roland Ng Subject: RE: HEX8: Yet another I Ching software program On Wed, 5 Jan 2000, Ron Hale-Evans wrote: > I think Roland might mean that the casting procedure is not "grounded" in a > peaceful, somber moment, the way even a coin casting can be, to say nothing > of yarrow. If so, Roland, I agree. I have no comments on computer-generated randomness on prediction. My profession is computer or you call Information Technology. Personally I do not trust the randomness of computer because of the following reasons. 1. Computer cannot generate pure randomness. 2. What random means your subconscious is controlling the result. If you are tossing coins, it can be believed that your subconscious may be able to control the result but it is hard to believe that one's subconscious can control the electric current inside the computer and control the random generator inside the computer. from Roland ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2000 10:06:54 +0800 (HKT) From: Roland Ng Subject: RE: HEX8: Yet another I Ching software program With regard to my last email and based on the 1st and 2nd point, I would rather design the I Ching program in this way. Make 3 buttons to represent three coins. Use computer randomness the generate the initial state of whether head or tail for these 3 buttons and the user can also see it. Then, you can click the buttons. After clicking, another picture besides head or tail will be showing. You can continue clicking the 3 buttons using your randomness. The computer will flip the coin internally for each click you perform. After clicking some time, you believe you have finished, you can then press another button to reveal the actual head and tail. Of course do that for 6 times and the hexagram is generated. I have used that to predict things and have good results. from Roland ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 05 Jan 2000 20:51:08 -0600 From: Ken Rose Subject: Re: HEX8: The role of oral traditions in the Yi Hi Roy, It is truly my pleasure to participate in these discussions. I believe they are an important aspect to the study of the Yi Jing and related traditions. We are fortunate to have such the facility to meet and exchange ideas. Nor am I trying to end any squabbling. I like squabbling and I find squabbling helps scare up both the strong and the weak points in my thinking. I will certainly look for your friend's book. Thanks for mentioning it. Hope your recovery is swift and thorough! Ken RCol547987@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 1/5/00 5:49:52 PM, yulong@mindspring.com writes: > > << I think we should also keep in mind that the Yi Jing is a heterodox > tradition > and not a homogenous, orthodox one. There are different versions, different > interpretations, in short, different "completenesses" all existing under the > moniker of the Yi Jing. Should we consider that the one that Wilhelm learned > is the right one? Making other, by implication, wrong? >> > > Hi Ken. Thank you for this clear, and balanced opinion. I am enjoying you > posts emensely! I believe that this statement is not just limited to the > Yi but can be applied to al aspects of thought -- I don't any two people see > anything exactly the same way as we are all unique. The best we can do is > give > our own interpretations (definitions) of the ten thousand things and have > "yi" for others' opinions. There is no right way or wrong way, only your > way an the others' way. I feel this is a valuable and valid point and can end > so much needless squabbling. > > On a differnt topic -- but somewhat related to language and the Yi jing: My > friend and colleague Stephen Selby who is a research writer/attorney in > Hong Kong recently wrote a book titled Chinese Archery (Hong Kong University > Press (ISBN 962 209 501 1). In the book there are many references to the > Yi and archery as it relates to battle strategies via divination. If you have > time, please check it out. In peace, Roy (still weak from recent surgery.) > > ===== > To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org > from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2000 10:40:26 +0000 From: kirk@mcelhearn.com (Kirk Mcelhearn) Subject: Re: HEX8: The role of oral traditions in the Yi On 5/01/00 21:07, Ken Rose, yulong@mindspring.com, is reported to have said: >It seems to me that Kirk's remark regarding the later appearance of >"the images" referes to that portion of the text of the Yi Jing (for example >as it appears in the Wilhelm/Baynes translation) that is labeled "The Image". Yes, that's what I meant, but that is what I understood from Jay's comment. Kirk vice | versa Translations from French to English, English to French Traductions francais-anglais, anglais-francais kirk@mcelhearn.com http://www.mcelhearn.com Kirk McElhearn | 91 rue de la Mesangerie | 37540 St Cyr sur Loire | France O=c=O O=c=O O=c=O O=c=O O=c=O O=c=O O=c=O O=c=O FOSSIL FUELS = HEAVY WEATHER O=c=O O=c=O O=c=O O=c=O O=c=O O=c=O O=c=O O=c=O ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 06 Jan 2000 10:52:00 +0000 From: Andreas Schoter Subject: Re: HEX8: The role of oral traditions in the Yi At 06:13 05/01/00 -0600, jayem wrote: >> The Master said: the holy sages set up the images in order to express >their >> thoughts completely; they devised the hexagrams in order to express the >> true and false completely. Then they appended judgements and so could >> express their words completely. >> This seems to me to indicate that the authors of the Yi consider it to be >> complete and self-contained. > >So the images came first, then the hexagrams, and lastly the judgements. >What are the images that the hexagrams are based on? To answer Jayem's question and hopefully clear up some confusion. In addition to the usage of the term "image" as the name of part of the hexagram texts (i.e. in connection with the judgement and line texts), we also find in Wilhelm's version of the Ta Chuan that the phrase "image" seems sometimes to be used to mean bigram, sometimes trigram but also, more importantly, it has a more general sense. Thus we have: Chpt XII v5 The holy sages were able to survey all the confused diversities under heaven. They observed forms and phenomena, made representations of things and their attributes. These were called the Images. Thus I take "images" in the context being discussed here to refer to what I would call an abstract notion of a situation. Actually, Kirk's paper "The Key to the Yijing" has a very good application of the term "situation", which he uses to render the Chinese term "shi" that captures what I think is meant by "image" here. If you've not read Kirk's paper I'd recommend it. It appeared in Vol 1 Num 6 of The Oracle, but is also available directly on the web http://www.mcelhearn.com/key.html All the Best Andreas ________________________________________________________________________ Dr Andreas Schöter, Intertrader Ltd http://www.intertrader.com Tel: +44(0)131 475 7108, Fax: +44(0)131 475 7109 ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2000 10:39:35 -0200 From: "Ely Britto" Subject: Re: HEX8: The role of oral traditions in the Yi Hi Ken, its always a pleasure to read your posts. Its interesting to notice how much Andreas and you are talking about the same principles in the same culture but looking at it by different point of reference. If we look at the two point of view our mind wants to choose which one would be the best, but this is not that simple. Let's comment: Ken said; We've got a book in preparation on this very subject. >One important apsect of this dimension of traditional Chinese thinking >is the requirement of personal cultivation. That is to say, one must >not only study the teachings but engage in the process of personal >cultivation and refinement of ideas and concepts before those ideas >and concepts begin to take their individual shape and meaning. Thus >the completion of meaning can never take place in the written text >but only in the minds and lives of those who read and use them. One thing I notice while I teach is that western is that the most difficult thing my students have to face is that theirs mind needs a change in the way they see the world in other to better understand the paradoxal Chinese thought. Our mind is programmed to think "is "this OR that", and Chinese thought see reality as an integrate pattern they think is "this AND that". This shift in our way of thinking is what happens when a western use the I Ching as a tool of personal cultivation. Very soon we realize that its impossible to go on in our realationship with Chinese culture without doing that inner shift in the way we see reality. Yesterday I saw a movie made by Ang Lee, "Pushing Hands". It shows the abysm that separate Chinese Culture from our techno mind directed culture. I recommend that movie to all. >I believe that what I said earlier is that there is a dimension of the Chinese >literary tradition which is not ever written down. This oral tradition can >be divided into two categories: >1) orally transmitted teachings >2) the wordless teaching I would say that probabily the wordless teaching is the one that makes that differences dipper and impossible to understand without personal cultivation. .>It is my belief that this trait of Chinese has engendered a distinct way of >looking at and thinking about the world over the past several thousand >years. This in and of itself implies that there is something about all old >Chinese texts that is either sub-textual or super-textual, depending upon >how you look at it. This is especially relevant, I believe, when dealing >with such ancient material in translation. Yes, but I think the problem is not a translation probelm it is deeper then that it is more a Cultural shift in the way we "think" as I said before. >> The Master said: writing cannot express words completely. Words cannot >> express thoughts completely. >> >> Are we then unable to see the thoughts of the holy sages? My experience as a teacher has showed to me that without a personal cultivation, yes, it is. If we try we follow into the paradoxy. >> >> The Master said: the holy sages set up the images in order to express their >> thoughts completely; they devised the hexagrams in order to express the >> true and false completely. Then they appended judgements and so could >> express their words completely. >> >> This seems to me to indicate that the authors of the Yi consider it to be >> complete and self-contained. Yes it is but it is not at the same time. Here we can see the paradoxy. It is all there, in the atructure ot the I Ching, ... but how many can see it? Thanks Andreas and Ken for bringing this into discussion. With love Ely ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2000 09:27:08 -0200 From: "Ely Britto" Subject: Re: HEX8: Coloring Ching Hello friends! I came back from hollidays and found hundreds of e-mails. Interesting share!! Monica and Tom (cabeal) Could you please send to my private e-mail the diagrams of Fu Shi arrangement's game and the coloring Ching? Thanks and love.. more love for this year and forever :) Ely ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2000 08:03:23 -0700 From: "Schmidt, Walter." Subject: RE: HEX8: Yet another I Ching software program Roland, you wrote: "For predicting using I Ching, we can add earth elements and family elements to each yin and yang and make further explanation. Usually non-chinese will not know this up to now, I cannot see any non-chinese books saying about that. You can treat it as another alternative of I-Ching prediction." Can you give an example of this procedure? Are you saying this is material that is available in Chinese literature not yet translated or is it part of that oral tradition that is being discussed in another thread? ws > -----Original Message----- > From: Roland Ng [SMTP:roland@hkstd2.hkstandard.com] > Sent: Wednesday, January 05, 2000 7:54 PM > To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org > Subject: RE: HEX8: Yet another I Ching software program > > On Wed, 5 Jan 2000, Schmidt, Walter. wrote: > > First, I simply don't understand what "adding the earth element" means > in > > this context. > > Second, the program doesn't use a mechanical means to interpret the > > hexagrams, it uses a (presumably) random method to generate the > hexagrams > > and then shows the W/B material for the hexagrams generated. > Interpretation > > is left to the reader, just like the book method we grew up with. > It has not described in the first email description of the program that > it will generate the hexagram randomly. So, I miss that point. > > from > Roland > > > ===== > To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org > from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 06 Jan 2000 17:10:38 +0000 From: Andreas Schoter Subject: Re: HEX8: The role of oral traditions in the Yi Hello Ken, At 14:49 05/01/00 -0600, you wrote: <...snip...> >One important apsect of this dimension of traditional Chinese thinking >is the requirement of personal cultivation. That is to say, one must >not only study the teachings but engage in the process of personal >cultivation and refinement of ideas and concepts before those ideas >and concepts begin to take their individual shape and meaning. Yes, absolutely. This is certainly my experience of study with martial arts and it also surely is the process of working with the Yi. I hope I haven't been giving the impression that I thought otherwise. >Thus the completion of meaning can never take place in the written text >but only in the minds and lives of those who read and use them. Ah! Now I see where you're coming from. It's not that the texts themselves should be considered incomplete, but that the information necessary to approach a full understanding of them is not to be found solely in the text itself. I would agree with this. Further, it is true of *all* written text not only esoteric works. It's a version of what is known as the "frame problem" in AI literature. Part of the extra information may come from other texts, but as you say much of it can only come from extended personal work. <...snip...> This next comment seems to confirm this interpretation: >Beyond what I've already said, I'd add that it is often the case with ancient >Chinese materials that they contain such assertions of completeness. The Taiji >classics, for example, contain lines which caution the reader that "if you do >not study in this fashion then you will waste your time and sigh." However, >without oral instruction, one has little hope of ever developing any sense at >all of what "this fashion" is. This is not to say that the words are not >"complete". I believe Cheng Man Ching recognized two methods of progressing in the martial arts: one was to study and practice with a group of peers, helping to continually refine each others art; whilst the second was to place yourself under the tutilege of a Master. He said that the second is best, but the first is also good. It seems that in the absence of a Master to directly provide the oral guidance, this group provides a very strong peer community. >My sense is that the text is best understood as a set of conceptual tools. >Tools work (or they don't) depending upon our understanding of their >design, intended use, and importantly upon our experience in using them. Again, yes. Absolute agreement with this statement. >They also require continual updating to fit them to the job at hand. >Here, I believe, we face one of the greatest challenges of studying >the Yi Jing as well as other ancient Chinese traditions. And yes, again. This is one of the vital roles of a discussion group such as this. Especially as it brings together people from such divergent points of view. All the Best Andreas ________________________________________________________________________ Dr Andreas Schöter Weft mailto:andreas@telinco.co.uk http://www.weft.telinco.co.uk ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ End of hexagram-8-digest V1 #154 ******************************** From owner-hexagram-8-digest@apocalypse.org Sat Jan 8 03:48:15 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id DAA28402 for hexagram-8-digest-outgoing; Sat, 8 Jan 2000 03:48:15 -0500 Date: Sat, 8 Jan 2000 03:48:15 -0500 Message-Id: <200001080848.DAA28402@apocalypse.org> X-Authentication-Warning: apocalypse.org: majordom set sender to owner-hexagram-8-digest@apocalypse.org using -f From: owner-hexagram-8-digest@apocalypse.org (hexagram-8-digest) To: hexagram-8-digest@apocalypse.org Subject: hexagram-8-digest V1 #155 Reply-To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Sender: owner-hexagram-8-digest@apocalypse.org Errors-To: owner-hexagram-8-digest@apocalypse.org Precedence: bulk hexagram-8-digest Saturday, January 8 2000 Volume 01 : Number 155 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2000 11:00:39 +0800 (HKT) From: Roland Ng Subject: RE: HEX8: Yet another I Ching software program This message is in MIME format. The first part should be readable text, while the remaining parts are likely unreadable without MIME-aware tools. 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