From owner-hexagram-8-digest@apocalypse.org Mon Mar 13 11:09:46 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA18608 for hexagram-8-digest-outgoing; Mon, 13 Mar 2000 11:09:46 -0500 Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2000 11:09:46 -0500 Message-Id: <200003131609.LAA18608@apocalypse.org> X-Authentication-Warning: apocalypse.org: majordom set sender to owner-hexagram-8-digest@apocalypse.org using -f From: owner-hexagram-8-digest@apocalypse.org (hexagram-8-digest) To: hexagram-8-digest@apocalypse.org Subject: hexagram-8-digest V1 #158 Reply-To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Sender: owner-hexagram-8-digest@apocalypse.org Errors-To: owner-hexagram-8-digest@apocalypse.org Precedence: bulk hexagram-8-digest Monday, March 13 2000 Volume 01 : Number 158 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 13:11:14 -0800 From: Ron Hale-Evans Subject: HEX8: READ ME: Hex8 archives Hex8ers-- Because of space considerations at Apocalypse, I have taken down the old archives for the list from 1995 to 1999 at and re-uploaded them in tarred and gzipped form. Each *.tar.gz file contains all the posts for that year. In order to read the archives in their new format on a Unix or Linux computer, you will need the utilities tar and gzip. On the Macintosh, you can use StuffIt Expander and DropStuff, and on Windows you can use Aladdin Expander and DropStuff; all of these are available from at no charge (DropStuff is technically shareware). I believe you can also use MindExpander on the Mac, and there are ports of tar and gzip to both platforms if you know where to look. Some versions of PKZip on the PC may also handle *.tar.gz files. I have also deleted a few of the *.gif.uue files and so on from a member in 1995 who subsequently disappeared. The GIFs were technical and abstract, to say the least, and no one has discussed them on list since way back when, but if anyone misses them, let me know and I'll replace them. File permissions seem to have gotten screwed up recently for Hex8. I can't read the archives starting with January 2000, but I have been in contact with the maintainers at Apocalypse and that problem should be fixed shortly. If you have any problems, please let me know. Ron List admin - -- Ron Hale-Evans: rwhe@apocalypse.org ... Center for Ludic Synergy: Kennexions GBG artgame: Hexagram-8 I Ching Mailing List: Positive Revolution FAQ: ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 16:48:51 -0500 From: Kevin M Renaud Subject: Re: HEX8: Silk Route Namaste. Just some thoughts. Probably of no interest, but..... By the time the Greeks got info on Polarity Theory, it was so corrupt as to be unrecognizable. To find anything meaningful, I have had to go back to Egypt. The philo-wars in Greece were political, not philosophical, having much more to do with where the power would originate, and their use of Yijing related materials would have been used in much the same way as the Yi was used in later years to bolster failing empires. Any reading of the texts of the Yin/Yang School reflects the growing interest in governing issues like Population Management and Freedoms Suppression. It is unlikely that older texts of purer format exist, as it is well know that the Chinese have no problem burning history. From a Greek point of view, if you must, try out The Stone Monkey by Bruce Holbrook (out-of-print, as far as I know) which covers the material nicely, or any of the books in his bibliography. I imagine you will quickly come to the same point I did, though, this material is far too late and corrupt to be of any interest. I suggest the Vedic Texts, they are incredibly difficult to understand to the Western Mind, and the commentaries are useless, but with effort, they reveal glimpses of a much older Polarity Theory that is used as a technology source. The info sources much earlier, IMHO, to the time of about -25,000 or so, so any journeys made would have ended in the Egyptian Empire, since Greece would have been very primitive at this time (much as the Greeks found in Europe with the Celts a score of millennium later). The original Yi Jing info probably came from the area in and around Tibet and Central India, spreading from there east and west. There is no doubt the initial contacts between the originators of the Yi and the proto-human species occurred here (read the Vedic Histories, or the oral tradition of the Aussie Abbies, both contain the story). The information was intact in Egypt by -25,000, and was probably much the same in China, although if there is anything that old in China, the govt is keeping it under wraps, much the way the Egyptians closed the Sphinx as soon as it became widely known that it was most likely dated to this period. As to interaction between the two cultures, it is quite likely on several levels, there is a distinct similarity between written languages, and, as anyone who has activated the Yi knows, time/space is an irrelevant crutch that supports continued political enslavement of consciousness (opps, did I say that?). So Fu Xi would not have needed to go by silk route, he would have much more likely just "gone" in the same way that all immortals do (more on this, see materials on the most current research into the immortals, the work of Baird Spaulding, and the growing material on the Sai Baba come to mind, although there are many more I have seen). Of more interest to me on this matter, and perhaps I can get your feedback on this, is the Gaia concept which becomes so obvious when one looks at this in a world view way. If we look at Mother Gaia with Tibet and Central India as the middle of Her most beautiful face, then Egypt become right side/left brained and China resides in the left hand/right brain. Consider that if this info was passed centrally, as all information is, how it was absorbed on each "side" of her body/mind. BTW, I am looking for any info on Coral Castle in Homestead Fl, and it's builder. This is very Yi related, since the only way he could have built it would be with Polarity Theory Technology (the yijing). Also info on Wihelm Reich, particularly his connection to Jung (Jung was working with The Secret of The Golden Flower and the Yijing). His orgone technology, and any applications of it. Ankh On Sun, 6 Feb 2000 17:31:03 EST RCol547987@aol.com writes: > I would like to know if anyone here has any information in regards to > the oral > transmission of knowledge via the Silk Route PRIOR to Zhang Qian's > travels > (139 > BCE.) Although I am particularly interested in the similarities of > the > yin/yang-type of dialectic shared by both Chinese and Greek > philosophers > during the timespan of 600 BCE to 500 BCE, I would also be > interested in > hearing about other possible > contacts -- (someone here said earlier that the Egyptian Geb and Fu > Xi may be > one and the same person, for instance.) > > If Fu Xi was a real flesh and blood person who supposedly lived in > the > Tienshui > region of China (just off the Silk Route) do you think it was > possible for him > to traverse the hazardous terrain that might have ended at the > Mediterrian > Ocean? If not Fu Xi, can a strong case be built in favor of the > Yang Shao > (and/or other local tribes) trading with cultures to its west? > Nearly one > hundred > mumified human remains have be dug from the sands of the Taklimakan > desert -- > some cabon-dated to pre-2000 BCE (bearing Indo-Europen features -- > one whose > face was painted with Indo-Iranian sunray symbol ) but so far no > concrete > links > from the scientific community. > > Also is it possible that an even more ancient Silk Route existed, > along which > culural exchanges were made but then, over time, was erased by the > constantly > shifting desert sands? I would like to hear from anyone with ideas > or > information > about these possibilities. > > In peace, Roy > > > ===== > To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to > majordomo@apocalypse.org > from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 18:29:15 EST From: RCol547987@aol.com Subject: Re: HEX8: Silk Route Thank you for your reply re the Silk Route. I have gotten in touch with Victor Mair (translator of the Mawangdui Tao Te Ching) who I was referred to by the China Archareology site at upenn. Mair directed me to an article he wrote in Early China (1990) that deals with the oral transmission of knowledge along the Silk Route that predates the Shang. It is titled Old Sinitic Myag, Old Persian Magus and English Magician. >From what I gather so far, it appears that Persian magicians were responsible for much of the oral transmission of philosophic and magico-religious teachings across much of the near and far east. These magicians are the same people discussed in the Oracle Bone Script (the ones who were hired by the kings to do the divination) as well as the same magicians in royal courts across the continent. According to Mair, these Magi were not restricted to any one place but were hired out in Mesopotamia, Parthia, Bactria, Chorasmia, Aria, Media, Arabia, Egypt, Ethopia and Asia Minor. The Greeks were well aquainted with the Magi as well (according to the writings of Herodotus -- Some Greek and Latin sources believe that the Magi were followers of Zarathustra. The apparent route taken by the Magi appears to be via the northern steppes and along the eastern edges of the Gobi Desert to Anyang (during the Shang period.) During the Zhou period the route seems to have been along the foothills of the Altai and the western Celestial Mountains down to Shensi. The term Magi or Myag appears to be of Iranian origin. This information appears to be supported by additional archaeological evidence discovered by Sir Aurel Stein at Niya in the 1900's. Among his finds were hundreds of wooden documents written in Kharoschthi script ( Indian alphabet of 5th Century BCE) often used for Silk Road transactions. There is a wonderful article titled The Silk Road's Lost World in National Geographic (vol 189, March 1996) In peace, Roy ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 20:52:04 -0600 From: omei shan Subject: Re: HEX8: Silk Route >Also info on >Wihelm Reich, particularly his connection to Jung (Jung was working with >The Secret of The Golden Flower and the Yijing). His orgone technology, >and any applications of it. > Wilhelm Reich wrote a (BOR-ING) book titled "The Function of the Orgasm." John Conger wrote a book titled "Jung and Reich: The Body as Shadow," a specualtive conversation between Jung and Reich. Monica ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 18:17:45 -0800 From: Ray Langley Subject: HEX8: Review, East-West Calendar REVIEW, "The East-West Calendar, Year of the Dragon, 2000" This review of the above product is being presented to the Feng Shui, Chinese Astrology, and I Ching/Yi Jing communities by Ray Langley. All comments and statements are purely the opinion of the reviewer. I have no commercial interests or affiliation with the organization producing this calendar. First Look: It is big! It cost $3.20 USD to send this package about 100 miles via U.S. Priority Mail. The calendar is approximately 11 X 17 inches in size. There is a large wood-cut print of a dragon on the front cover. The Back Cover: shows small thumbnail sketches of the 13 exquisite watercolor prints that appear on the inside. The back cover also contains a description of the calendar: "The East-West Calendar combines the artistic talents of Master Y. C. Chiang and Professor Hui Liu. It also contains traditional information from the Chinese Almanac (Ray: Tong Shu), which in turn was based on the Chou Yi (Ray: Zhouyi), the fabled Book of Changes, from the dawn of China's civilization. Information from the Almanac has assisted wise people for centuries in the selection of dates and times for auspicious and inauspicious actions. By observing the black dates one can avoid misfortune; by consulting the red dates, one can maximize Nature's invisible support for favorable outcomes." The calendar gives lunar dates as well as Buddhist observances and other national and cultural holidays. The black and red dates refer to the fact that auspicious events are printed in red ink. On the inside: The calendar contains 13 months from January 2000 to January 2001. Each month contains a lovely watercolor print that is suitable for framing. Most of the artwork contains such tranquil subjects as flowers in bloom, birds, bamboo, and kittens. Unfortunately, a print of the Golden Dragon is conspicuously missing. Each piece of artwork contains an inspirational quote in both Chinese and English. The quote for January is "When personal virtue is valued, the right Tao will flourish." The quote for February is, "Ask much of yourself, be compassionate with others." The actual calendar: contains translations from the Tong Shu for the most auspicious times and days for many events and actions. It also contains the four phases of the moon, and the 24 Seasonal Points of the Solar Calendar. Here is a sample from the calendar for the next few days (February 17-20). Rather than writing the words auspicious and inauspicious over and over, I will just say good and bad in the interest of brevity. Thursday - February 17. This is a good day to repair the road and to set the stove. The best times are 3-7 am, and 3-7 pm. This is a bad day for a burial or setting the door. Friday - February 18. This is a good day for marriage, moving, or for a grand opening. The best times are 9-1 pm, and 5-9 pm. This is a bad day to set the stove, or for building. Saturday - February 19. This day is highlighted in red ink. In general, this is a "good day". Also noted is that today is "Yu Shui" or "Rains Begin" in the Chinese Solar Calendar. The Full Moon Symbol also shows us that this is the 15th day of the Lunar Month. This is a good day for moving, setting the door, setting the bed, and for making offerings. The best times are 5-7 am, 9-1 pm, and 5-7 pm. This is a bad day for setting the stove, or for conducting a grand opening. Sunday - February 20. This is a good day to make offerings, see the doctor, and to pacify evil. The best times are 1-3 am, and 7-1 pm. This is a bad day to have a celebration. If you want more, I guess you'll just have to buy this calendar. In this reviewers opinion, this is a quality product at a fair price. For Feng Shui practitioners this calendar will help you answer some of your client's questions, such as: When is the best day to open my business? When is a good time to set the foundation for my new house? When should I move into my new house? What is a good day to plant my roses? When should I get married? (Ray: The answer is *NEVER*!!!) There are several other methods for choosing auspicious dates and times, but unless you can read Chinese, you probably don't know any of them. Millions of Chinese throughout the world rely upon the advice in the Tong Shu. This advice is now available to the millions of English speaking peoples on this planet. There are other English translations available but this reviewer doesn't know of any at this low price. Bottom Line: Highly Recommended. I will use this. For more information, or to order, contact: Wen Wu School 10124 San Pablo Avenue El Cerrito, CA 94530 USA Email Contact: Loc Huynh everythingisok@mindspring.com Price: $15.00 USD - -- Warmest Regards, Ray Have Luo Pan, Will Travel! ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 10:05:30 -0300 From: "Ely Britto" Subject: Re: HEX8: Review, East-West Calendar Hi Ray, Thanks for the calendar's Review, I will tell interested people about it. It seems a beautiful piece! Love Ely ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 07:47:44 -0800 From: Ray Langley Subject: Re: HEX8: Review, East-West Calendar > Hi Ray, > Thanks for the calendar's Review, I will tell interested people > about it. > It seems a beautiful piece! > Love > Ely Thanks Ely! In this group, we would simply consult the Yi to know the best "time" for a particular action. :-) In retrospect, I installed a new front door on a day that was "bad to set door". I caught the worst flu I've ever had! Monday is not a good day to get married, so leave that guy standing at the altar!!! LOL - -- Warmest Regards, Ray Have Luo Pan, Will Travel! ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 15:31:09 -0800 From: wayne_rebecca Subject: HEX8: book available Hi, If anyone's looking for this book... http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=265752308 wayne - -- Wayne & Rebecca Lowry Springfield, Oregon wayne_rebecca@iname.com ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2000 14:07:31 +0000 From: Andreas Schoter Subject: HEX8: Review of Omei I Ching Hi Folks, For those who don't get Steve Moore's excellent paper journal "The Oracle" I've just put my review of Monica Salyer's "Omei I Ching" on-line at my web site. Interested parties should surf over to: http://www.weft.telinco.co.uk/changes/reviews/omei.html All the Best Andreas ________________________________________________________________________ Dr Andreas Schöter Weft mailto:andreas@telinco.co.uk http://www.weft.telinco.co.uk ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2000 23:27:51 -0600 From: omei shan Subject: Re: HEX8: Review of Omei I Ching Andreas! You are just TOO kind! You put the review on-line! I feel so honored, since mine is only the second review you've placed on your Web site! Thank you! Monica At 02:07 PM 02/28/2000 +0000, you wrote: >Hi Folks, > >For those who don't get Steve Moore's excellent paper journal "The Oracle" >I've just put my review of Monica Salyer's "Omei I Ching" on-line at my web >site. Interested parties should surf over to: > >http://www.weft.telinco.co.uk/changes/reviews/omei.html > >All the Best > >Andreas > >________________________________________________________________________ > Dr Andreas Schöter >Weft mailto:andreas@telinco.co.uk > http://www.weft.telinco.co.uk > > >===== >To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org >from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. > ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 05 Mar 2000 23:08:43 +0000 From: Ian Greely Subject: HEX8: Off topic. Mailing lists... Sorry to post this to the list. Someone mentioned in a post to the list a site on the net which will run a mailing list. Alas due to yet another crash I no longer have that e-mail and find myself currently wanting to run a small mailing list. Anyone remember the name of the site? regards, Ian ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 05 Mar 2000 14:07:42 -0800 From: Ray Langley Subject: Re: HEX8: Off topic. Mailing lists... > Sorry to post this to the list. Someone mentioned in a post to the > list a site on the net which will run a mailing list. Alas due to yet > another crash I no longer have that e-mail and find myself currently > wanting to run a small mailing list. > > Anyone remember the name of the site? > > regards, > Ian Hi Ian. Onelist/eGroups hosts thousands of mailing lists. I have one on chineseastrology, ChineseFengShui, and IChing_Yijing. http://www.onelist.com/ - -- Warmest Regards, Ray Have Luo Pan, Will Travel! ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 5 Mar 2000 18:23:35 -0500 From: "pattique" Subject: Re: HEX8: Off topic. Mailing lists... You can try www.topica.com, I believe they have what you are looking for. Sincerely Pat Q - ----- Original Message ----- From: Ian Greely To: Sent: Sunday, March 05, 2000 6:08 PM Subject: HEX8: Off topic. Mailing lists... > Sorry to post this to the list. Someone mentioned in a post to the > list a site on the net which will run a mailing list. Alas due to yet > another crash I no longer have that e-mail and find myself currently > wanting to run a small mailing list. > > Anyone remember the name of the site? > > regards, > Ian > > > ===== > To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org > from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. > ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 12 Mar 2000 21:35:43 -0800 (PST) From: diane haldane Subject: HEX8: hi and i ching's personality hi ron, thanks for letting me join in, and hello everybody. i am looking forward to talking to others about their knowledge and experiences with the i ching. i keep going back to it, but i find i keep having a "personality clash" with all the interpretations i have found, or maybe i am having a clash with the i ching itself which seems to have its own personality. anyone else sense that, that it has a personality, or is that a personal quirk of mine? i keep coming back to it, though, so i am drawn. any recommendations on translations that anyone prefers? looking forward to more discussion. diane __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2000 00:02:37 -0800 From: "K" Subject: HEX8: Re: hi and i ching's personality Yes thank you Ron. Hello everyone. I have also found some translations to 'clash' with me as you have described. I think this is due primarily to the translator. Although if you really can't handle it, it may indeed signal a weakness of yours. The most friendly translation I have yet found is by Brian Browne Walker. If there is a friendlier translation, I would like to know about it! - ----- Original Message ----- From: "diane haldane" To: Sent: Sunday, March 12, 2000 9:35 PM Subject: HEX8: hi and i ching's personality > > hi ron, thanks for letting me join in, and > hello everybody. > i am looking forward to talking to others > about their knowledge and experiences with > the i ching. > i keep going back to it, but i find i keep > having a "personality clash" with all the > interpretations i have found, or maybe > i am having a clash with the i ching itself > which seems to have its own personality. > anyone else sense that, that it has a personality, or is that a personal quirk of mine? i keep > coming back to it, though, so i am drawn. any recommendations on translations that anyone prefers? > looking forward to more discussion. diane ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2000 08:07:26 +0000 From: Ian J Greely Subject: Re: HEX8: Re: hi and i ching's personality Hmm, Yes I've found the damn thing irritating and intractable at times. Or is that me? *frown* As to more friendly translations the translation used by Talis for thier talis I-Ching program (www.resonate.org) seems to be rather "PC" if you will. Personaly I prefer the more blunt translations of the I Ching that I've found. regards, Ian On Mon, 13 Mar 2000 00:02:37 -0800, you wrote: >Yes thank you Ron. Hello everyone. > >I have also found some translations to 'clash' with me as you have >described. I think this is due primarily to the translator. Although if you >really can't handle it, it may indeed signal a weakness of yours. > >The most friendly translation I have yet found is by Brian Browne Walker. If >there is a friendlier translation, I would like to know about it! > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "diane haldane" >To: >Sent: Sunday, March 12, 2000 9:35 PM >Subject: HEX8: hi and i ching's personality > > >> >> hi ron, thanks for letting me join in, and >> hello everybody. >> i am looking forward to talking to others >> about their knowledge and experiences with >> the i ching. >> i keep going back to it, but i find i keep >> having a "personality clash" with all the >> interpretations i have found, or maybe >> i am having a clash with the i ching itself >> which seems to have its own personality. >> anyone else sense that, that it has a personality, or is that a personal >quirk of mine? i keep >> coming back to it, though, so i am drawn. any recommendations on >translations that anyone prefers? >> looking forward to more discussion. diane > > > > >===== >To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org >from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2000 06:45:43 EST From: Autorbis@aol.com Subject: HEX8: I-Ching-pages Hi all, I'm on the way to create my own homepage and wish to include a page with the best links to I-Ching-pages or best sources of information about chinese history and literature. Does anybody knows or has opinions about the "MUSTs" in this field? Thanks Lothar ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2000 04:52:48 -0800 (PST) From: diane haldane Subject: Re: HEX8: Re: hi and i ching's personality hi k, thanks for your recommendation. could you elaborate on what you mean by my "clash" with the i ching being a weakness of mine? you've piqued my curiousity! thanks, diane ~~~~~~~ - --- K wrote: > I have also found some translations to 'clash' with me as you have > described. I think this is due primarily to the translator. Although if you > really can't handle it, it may indeed signal a weakness of yours. > > The most friendly translation I have yet found is by Brian Browne Walker. If > there is a friendlier translation, I would like to know about it! > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "diane haldane" > > i keep going back to it, but i find i keep > > having a "personality clash" with all the > > interpretations i have found, or maybe > > i am having a clash with the i ching itself > > which seems to have its own personality. > > anyone else sense that, that it has a personality, or is that a personal > quirk of mine? __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2000 10:28:10 -0300 From: "Ely Britto" Subject: Re: HEX8: Re: hi and i ching's personality - ->hi k, thanks for your recommendation. could >you elaborate on what you mean by my "clash" >with the i ching being a weakness of mine? >you've piqued my curiousity! thanks, diane Hi Daine, I am an old member of this list, my name is Ely, (and i am a woman). I am from Brazil, I am a writer, I Ching's teacher and Instructor of Chinese Inner Alchemy. I've been teaching people for mre then 15 years. My experience about what you are feeling is that this is a normal phase of the study of the I Ching. The crash of the personality must happens so you can build up a new way to see reality, life and changes. Unless you will use the I Ching like a dead tool to just to add more concepts to yours already full mind, this crash is the most healthy thing that could happens to you and it is very good. Just take the example of a house, you have al old house and if you want to rebuild it many things must be firstly crashed. In the I Ching this "crash and rebuilding" is well represented in the meaning of the two hexagrams, 23 and 24. This is a law of change and never weakness. If you want to look at it thinking it is weakness, I would say that weakness is the Yin part of nature, the one we do not want to feel but at the same time the only one that can freed us from the domain of concepts, intellect and common mind. The pure mind that will give you a pure perception and new perspective of the world can only be installed by the "crash"of the old patterns that have being guiding your life do far. No probelm with translations, trey to understand the structure of the book, the combination of the Yin and yang lines and what make them move to another situation and you will be able to *read* the lines and do your own perception fo the laws acting in nature and your life. I am finishing the translation of my homepage to English language, you can take a look at the graphics and meditate upon them. www.healing-tao.com.br Try to find a xerox copy of Steve Moore book "The Trigrams of Han" or a very cute and ease illustrated book named "The I Ching - an illustraded guide of the Chinese Art of Divination" and you will be able to learn the structure of the I Ching. Think about the lines and its combination, study them using more your own inner feeling then your mind and you will be able to "feel" the structure acting in all the thousands things around you and in the hexagrams. You are in the right path, don't fear, let it go, don't listen to critics about your own perception of lofe, just keep in touch with the movements of change, in everything that moves and do not moves around you. learn about changes not about books. You will find out soon, what this incredible book is talking about. Be welcome and be brave Ely Britto www.healing-tao.com.br >~~~~~~~ >--- K wrote: >> I have also found some translations to 'clash' with me as you have >> described. I think this is due primarily to the translator. Although if you >> really can't handle it, it may indeed signal a weakness of yours. >> >> The most friendly translation I have yet found is by Brian Browne Walker. If >> there is a friendlier translation, I would like to know about it! >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "diane haldane" >> > i keep going back to it, but i find i keep >> > having a "personality clash" with all the >> > interpretations i have found, or maybe >> > i am having a clash with the i ching itself >> > which seems to have its own personality. >> > anyone else sense that, that it has a personality, or is that a personal >> quirk of mine? >__________________________________________________ >Do You Yahoo!? >Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. >http://im.yahoo.com > > >===== >To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org >from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2000 10:30:32 -0300 From: "Ely Britto" Subject: Re: HEX8: Re: hi and i ching's personality - ->hi k, thanks for your recommendation. could >you elaborate on what you mean by my "clash" >with the i ching being a weakness of mine? >you've piqued my curiousity! thanks, diane Hi Daine, I am an old member of this list, my name is Ely, (and i am a woman). I am from Brazil, I am a writer, I Ching's teacher and Instructor of Chinese Inner Alchemy. I've been teaching people for mre then 15 years. My experience about what you are feeling is that this is a normal phase of the study of the I Ching. The crash of the personality must happens so you can build up a new way to see reality, life and changes. Unless you will use the I Ching like a dead tool to just to add more concepts to yours already full mind, this crash is the most healthy thing that could happens to you and it is very good. Personality os not your real being, the world persona from where this world cames means "mask". It is that mask that is *crashing*. Just take the example of a house, you have al old house and if you want to rebuild it many things must be firstly crashed. In the I Ching this "crash and rebuilding" is well represented in the meaning of the two hexagrams, 23 and 24. This is a law of change and never weakness. If you want to look at it thinking it is weakness, I would say that weakness is the Yin part of nature, the one we do not want to feel but at the same time the only one that can freed us from the domain of concepts, intellect and common mind. The pure mind that will give you a pure perception and new perspective of the world can only be installed by the "crash"of the old patterns that have being guiding your life do far. No probelm with translations, trey to understand the structure of the book, the combination of the Yin and yang lines and what make them move to another situation and you will be able to *read* the lines and do your own perception fo the laws acting in nature and your life. I am finishing the translation of my homepage to English language, you can take a look at the graphics and meditate upon them. www.healing-tao.com.br Try to find a xerox copy of Steve Moore book "The Trigrams of Han" or a very cute and ease illustrated book named "The I Ching - an illustraded guide of the Chinese Art of Divination" and you will be able to learn the structure of the I Ching. Think about the lines and its combination, study them using more your own inner feeling then your mind and you will be able to "feel" the structure acting in all the thousands things around you and in the hexagrams. You are in the right path, don't fear, let it go, don't listen to critics about your own perception of lofe, just keep in touch with the movements of change, in everything that moves and do not moves around you. learn about changes not about books. You will find out soon, what this incredible book is talking about. Be welcome and be brave Ely Britto www.healing-tao.com.br >~~~~~~~ >--- K wrote: >> I have also found some translations to 'clash' with me as you have >> described. I think this is due primarily to the translator. Although if you >> really can't handle it, it may indeed signal a weakness of yours. >> >> The most friendly translation I have yet found is by Brian Browne Walker. If >> there is a friendlier translation, I would like to know about it! >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "diane haldane" >> > i keep going back to it, but i find i keep >> > having a "personality clash" with all the >> > interpretations i have found, or maybe >> > i am having a clash with the i ching itself >> > which seems to have its own personality. >> > anyone else sense that, that it has a personality, or is that a personal >> quirk of mine? >__________________________________________________ >Do You Yahoo!? >Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. >http://im.yahoo.com > > >===== >To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org >from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2000 10:38:37 -0300 From: "Ely Britto" Subject: Re: HEX8: Re: hi and i ching's personality Sorry for my English mistakes and the erro in typing your name Diane. Light Ely ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2000 08:17:45 -0800 From: "K" Subject: Re: HEX8: Re: hi and i ching's personality Forgive me I misspoke myself I think. I merely meant that if some aspect of a perceived 'personality' of the translation left one feeling 'clashed' upon it might either be a weakness of the translation in conveying the meaning of the lines or a weakness in one's ability to comprehend that meaning. In either case, there is no weak without a strong, so clearly all translations have value. When I was carrying the book around with me everywhere I went, I carried at least two copies; one comfortable and familiar, and another as obscure and as impenetrable as I knew of. Worked for me, your mileage may vary. ^-^ - ----- Original Message ----- From: "diane haldane" To: Sent: Monday, March 13, 2000 4:52 AM Subject: Re: HEX8: Re: hi and i ching's personality > > hi k, thanks for your recommendation. could > you elaborate on what you mean by my "clash" > with the i ching being a weakness of mine? > you've piqued my curiousity! thanks, diane ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ End of hexagram-8-digest V1 #158 ******************************** From owner-hexagram-8-digest@apocalypse.org Sat Mar 18 11:41:07 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA00924 for hexagram-8-digest-outgoing; Sat, 18 Mar 2000 11:41:07 -0500 Date: Sat, 18 Mar 2000 11:41:07 -0500 Message-Id: <200003181641.LAA00924@apocalypse.org> X-Authentication-Warning: apocalypse.org: majordom set sender to owner-hexagram-8-digest@apocalypse.org using -f From: owner-hexagram-8-digest@apocalypse.org (hexagram-8-digest) To: hexagram-8-digest@apocalypse.org Subject: hexagram-8-digest V1 #159 Reply-To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Sender: owner-hexagram-8-digest@apocalypse.org Errors-To: owner-hexagram-8-digest@apocalypse.org Precedence: bulk hexagram-8-digest Saturday, March 18 2000 Volume 01 : Number 159 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2000 08:34:19 -0800 (PST) From: diane haldane Subject: Re: HEX8: Re: hi and i ching's personality k, thanks for the clarification of what you meant by weakness. thanks also to ely for your thoughts and informations. this "clash" reminds me of the shock i went through when i first encountered the concept of "maya" in hinduism. i was very depressed and confused, but once i understood the concept better, it was actually a relief! i recently have gone through the same thing in my current studies of gnosticism. the ideas are so different it has been difficult to grasp. but i think i have made a breakthrough there too. so i will persist with the i ching. it does make sense that i have to destroy some ideas in order to make room for others. thanks to both of you for the encouragement! regards, diane - --- K wrote: > Forgive me I misspoke myself I think. I merely meant that if some aspect of > a perceived 'personality' of the translation left one feeling 'clashed' upon > it might either be a weakness of the translation in conveying the meaning of > the lines or a weakness in one's ability to comprehend that meaning. > > In either case, there is no weak without a strong, so clearly all > translations have value. When I was carrying the book around with me > everywhere I went, I carried at least two copies; one comfortable and > familiar, and another as obscure and as impenetrable as I knew of. Worked > for me, your mileage may vary. ^-^ > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "diane haldane" > > > > hi k, thanks for your recommendation. could > > you elaborate on what you mean by my "clash" > > with the i ching being a weakness of mine? > > you've piqued my curiousity! thanks, diane > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2000 15:57:34 -0600 From: Charlie Higgins Subject: HEX8: Re: Cyrille Javery's history of the YJ A while back an aquaintance of mine through email sent me an addendum to the concordance of R&K he made up which with his permission I offered to Hex8. Today I got the following email from him. I though you might be interested in it. Kirk, you will especially be interested in it since it is a synoposis on Javery's book. I would be interested in your remarks to him, as probably would others from Hex8 if you would care to cc it to us. He is not a member of Hex8 but hopefully will be in the future. Charlie Higgins Below is the email I received: - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Subject: Cyrille Javery's history of the YJ Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2000 16:44:26 -0500 From: Lare / Mo Lei-Li ( =?big5?B?svYguXAgsno=?= ) Organization: formerly c61819@gdi.net To: Charlie Higgins Hello, Charlie-- Long time no email. In case you haven't read it, thought you might be interested in a synoposis of Javery's book: http://home.att.net/~mo4/Javery.htm Thanks again for the Legge, - --Larry Moore / Mo Lei-Li ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2000 08:58:25 +0100 From: Kirk McElhearn Subject: Re: HEX8: Re: Cyrille Javery's history of the YJ On 13/03/00 22:57, Charlie Higgins chh@crcom.net is reported to have said: >A while back an aquaintance of mine through email sent me an addendum to >the concordance of R&K he made up which with his permission I offered to >Hex8. Today I got the following email from him. I though you might be >interested in it. > >Kirk, you will especially be interested in it since it is a synoposis on >Javery's book. Thanks for the info. Note that his name is spelled Javary. Kirk vice | versa Translations from French to English, English to French Traductions francais-anglais, anglais-francais kirk@mcelhearn.com http://www.mcelhearn.com Kirk McElhearn | Chemin de la Lauze | 05600 Guillestre | France O=c=O O=c=O O=c=O O=c=O O=c=O O=c=O O=c=O O=c=O FOSSIL FUELS = HEAVY WEATHER O=c=O O=c=O O=c=O O=c=O O=c=O O=c=O O=c=O O=c=O ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2000 12:01:25 EST From: FKegan@aol.com Subject: Re: HEX8: Re: hi and i ching's personality Hi Diane and Ely, The question of translations, of any book, and especially the I Ching is that you are getting the translator's slant. The Ancient Greeks called translators traitors, probably the American idiom would be to say translator is trashsayer. The I Ching is not a work of poetry, its essence is in the geometry of cycles described in number patterns. The imagery used to express or explain its patterns is always a bit of a tangent from the actual symbolism. The more a translation feels comfortable to a reader, the more it has taken off on a verbal tangent from the essential geometry. One pays for the comfort by the gap that develops between the words of the translation and the exact fit of an oracle to your situation. At some point you will find the words of the translation speaking of their interests and saying nothing to your oracle. The actual text of the I Ching is quite staccato, standard phrases of imagery and slogans. Gia-Fu Feng did a Taoist translation in the '70's (which I helped with the English phrasing, and finally got the copyright registered last year) which has a general content much like the Wilhelm/Baynes in specific translation only the four Chinese slogans they render as "Supreme Success Perseverance Furthers" Gia-Fu used "Primal Bliss Fruitful to Have Zest." Gia-Fu didn't write further commentary, and the original manuscript was rejected by his publisher at the time. The imagery of the I Ching is accessible through most translations, however, the meaning of that imagery in terms of the actual geometrical symbolism of the I Ching is only available through the ancient number patterns. Fortunately, they are basically the same in Pythagorean or astrological metaphysics; however, they are still very different from modern analytical geometry. The import of each hexagram can be felt in the simple dynamics of the focus in yang and background in yin taking their place in the first to sixth stages of universal cycle. The meaning of the hexagram which is trying to be described in their names is contained in their sequence, which number from the unit to 10 of which set from the simple water cycle of hexagrams 1-10 to the cosmic symbols of the set from 51 to 60 and then the all encompassing abstract symbolism of the last 4 hexagrams. Each of us constructs our own mix of personal relationship and technical infrastructure to frame our work with the I Ching. How much is to be gained by fighting with a translation that feels that it "clashes" and how much from taking comfort in one that doesn't is a decision having more to do with your own growth issues than with the text of the I Ching. Frank R. Kegan ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2000 19:32:31 +0100 From: "Thomas" Subject: Re: HEX8: Re: Cyrille Javery's history of the YJ Hi, I'm new to Hexagram-8, and live in Belgium. I use the I Ching in a rather psychological sense, I mean I don't believe that anything magic happens, but rather that the random phrases act on the mind to stimuate thinking, decision making and intuition like Zen koans. I love Chinese philosophy specially, and the later 10 Wings commentary of the I Ching is a very fine work of Chinese thought. I like Wang Bi's commentary too, as translated by Richard Lynn. I have a few ideas on: http://home.att.net/~mo4/Javery.htm ,it's an interesting and probably accurate summary of the history of the I Ching. I've actually had the opportunity to meet Cirylle Javary in Brussels. What's amazing in the chronology is that the "yin/yang broken/full" line visual hexagrams were invented some 500 years after the divination sayings. The graphic hexagrams came from the ideas of the Yin-Yang school around 300 BC. Yet the divination sayings came in groups of 6 from the very start in the Zhou period (800 BC): each line was associated with a number, similar to the system of 6,7;8;9 still used for the coin tossing. (There is evidence of this on Zhou bronze vessels). But there were no visual hexagram images then. Still later, during the Han dyansty, the trigrams were invented. (All this is explained in a French book edited by Cyrille: Les mutations du Yi King). Still there is a contradiction here because Cyrille Javary seems to date the Great Commentary (from the 10 Wings) to 400-300 BC, and the trigrams to 200BC or later, yet the trigrams are mentioned already in the Great Commetary. Angus Graham (in Disputers of the Tao) probably more correctly dates the Ten Wings to 200 BC, about the time of the discovery of the trigrams. And those later Han Taoist-Confucian inspired philosophers who wrote the ten Wings rewrote the whole I Ching history backwards, saying the order of discovery was: 1. the trigrams 2. the hexagrams 3. the line texts. Those ancient Chinese weren't so worried about historical accuracy...but about making the best cosmolgical sense. Thomas Visit my Confucius page: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Bridge/8744 ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2000 20:00:01 EST From: Autorbis@aol.com Subject: Re: HEX8: Re: Cyrille Javery's history of the YJ << Hi, I'm new to Hexagram-8, and live in Belgium. I use the I Ching in a rather psychological sense, I mean I don't believe that anything magic happens, but rather that the random phrases act on the mind to stimuate thinking, decision making and intuition like Zen koans. I love Chinese philosophy specially, and the later 10 Wings commentary of the I Ching is a very fine work of Chinese thought. I like Wang Bi's commentary too, as translated by Richard Lynn. I have a few ideas on: http://home.att.net/~mo4/Javery.htm ,it's an interesting and probably accurate summary of the history of the I Ching. I've actually had the opportunity to meet Cirylle Javary in Brussels. What's amazing in the chronology is that the "yin/yang broken/full" line visual hexagrams were invented some 500 years after the divination sayings. The graphic hexagrams came from the ideas of the Yin-Yang school around 300 BC. Yet the divination sayings came in groups of 6 from the very start in the Zhou period (800 BC): each line was associated with a number, similar to the system of 6,7;8;9 still used for the coin tossing. (There is evidence of this on Zhou bronze vessels). But there were no visual hexagram images then. Still later, during the Han dyansty, the trigrams were invented. (All this is explained in a French book edited by Cyrille: Les mutations du Yi King). Still there is a contradiction here because Cyrille Javary seems to date the Great Commentary (from the 10 Wings) to 400-300 BC, and the trigrams to 200BC or later, yet the trigrams are mentioned already in the Great Commetary. Angus Graham (in Disputers of the Tao) probably more correctly dates the Ten Wings to 200 BC, about the time of the discovery of the trigrams. And those later Han Taoist-Confucian inspired philosophers who wrote the ten Wings rewrote the whole I Ching history backwards, saying the order of discovery was: 1. the trigrams 2. the hexagrams 3. the line texts. Those ancient Chinese weren't so worried about historical accuracy...but about making the best cosmolgical sense. Thomas Visit my Confucius page: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Bridge/8744 >> Hi Thomas, nice to have you here. Actually the situation with these few old chinese documents doesn't allow any sure conclusion, if the trigram-idea was earlier or later than the hexagram-idea. You didn't mention, that there are various documents, which indicate, that in earlier time some other numbers are used than 6-7-8-9 to form an oracle result. Lothar ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2000 19:59:46 EST From: Autorbis@aol.com Subject: Re: HEX8: Re: hi and i ching's personality << The meaning of the hexagram which is trying to be described in their names is contained in their sequence, which number from the unit to 10 of which set from the simple water cycle of hexagrams 1-10 to the cosmic symbols of the set from 51 to 60 and then the all encompassing abstract symbolism of the last 4 hexagrams. Each of us constructs our own mix of personal relationship and technical infrastructure to frame our work with the I Ching. How much is to be gained by fighting with a translation that feels that it "clashes" and how much from taking comfort in one that doesn't is a decision having more to do with your own growth issues than with the text of the I Ching. Frank R. Kegan >> Hello Frank, The last part of your letter sounds, as if you've a rather special theory about the mysterious numerology of I-Ching. Could you tell a little more about it? Lothar ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2000 09:46:49 -0300 From: "Ely Britto" Subject: Re: HEX8: Re: hi and i ching's personality Dear Frank, Welcome to the list! We needed new people here to warm up our discussions. Thank you for saying in good English what I am not able to say with my poor English! Sorry about that. I would love to improve my writing but have no time free to learn properly. Let me try to communicate using the poor English I know. I almost agreed with your thoughts but there are two things that you said I would like to talk to you about. First, this: *The I Ching is not a work of poetry, its essence is in the geometry of cycles described in number patterns. * And this: *The imagery of the I Ching is accessible through most translations, however, the meaning of that imagery in >terms of the actual geometrical symbolism of the I Ching is only available >through the ancient number patterns. Fortunately, they are basically the same in Pythagorean or astrological metaphysics; however, they are still very different from modern analytical geometry. There is an old Chinese text written by Wang Fu-chih that states: "Between Heaven and Earth there exists nothing but law and energy. The energy carries the law and the law regulates the energy. Law does not manifest itself (has no form); it is only through energy that the image is formed, and the image yields the number. If this law becomes blurred the image is not right and the number is not clear. This reveals itself in great things and expresses itself in small things. Thus only a man of the highest integrity can understand this law; basing himself on its revelation he can grasp the symbols, and observing its small expressions, he can understand the auguries." As you can see, according to that ancient tex,t numbers were not the special base of the I Ching symbology, you have first the law and afterwards the energy that gives birth to numbers. There are a lot of people here working with numbers. I think you will enjoy talking to them. My work is more with the law and energy. About poetry: It is all made with numbers (see the classics), like music, like the beautiful paintings of Leonardo Da Vinci and all the Gothic architecture of the ancient churches. I look at the I Ching as the most beautiful poem I ever read, because it is life and life is made of beauty and harmony. Think how much poetry sings around us which we do not see because we are busy with our concrete mind. All the great men whose work changed the evolution of science talk about the poetry of the universe. They can see the poetry in numbers, in mathematics, and in the laws of life. I think we need more yin energy to perceive what they could see. Would you open your heart to see the poetry of the I Ching? Love Ely ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2000 17:14:06 +0100 From: "Thomas" Subject: Re: HEX8: Re: Cyrille Javery's history of the YJ > Actually the situation with these few old chinese documents doesn't allow any > sure conclusion, if the trigram-idea was earlier or later than the > hexagram-idea. Yes, you're probably right. I rechecked my I Ching books: there is a French one "Les Signes et les Mutations" by Wang Dongliang: he quotes Zhang Zhenglang who was the Chinese scholar who discovered those "bagua" numerals coded on the Zhou bronze vessels. (You are of course right to point out that there were more of them than the 6,7,8,9 that we still know.) And in his opinion, the only first hard evidence we have of graphic full/broken line hexagrams is the silk Mawangdui manuscript dated 168 BC. Before that hard date, everything is more or less good guessing. For the trigrams, Richard Rutt's remarkable book "Zhouyi" includes a translation of the "Zuo Commentary" with the earliest practical I Ching readings known: that "Zuo Commentary" is thought to have been compiled in the 3d century BC. In that text the trigrams have the symbolism we know: wind, mountain... But this is still 500 years after the writing of the divination formulas. There must have been a gradual evolution, starting with formulas grouped in batches of 6 and identied by numbers only (like or 6,7,8,9). Imagine using the I Ching with coins to get the numbers 6-9 and not drawing the hexagram: that's how it probably started. Then gradually the lines were drawn, maybe after several hundred years, and still later the trigrams were thought of. But, as you say, it can't be dated with much precision. Hello from Thomas Visit my Confucius page: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Bridge/8744 ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2000 12:50:00 EST From: Autorbis@aol.com Subject: Re: HEX8: Re: Cyrille Javery's history of the YJ Hi Thomas, << > Actually the situation with these few old chinese documents doesn't allow any > sure conclusion, if the trigram-idea was earlier or later than the > hexagram-idea. Yes, you're probably right. I rechecked my I Ching books: there is a French one "Les Signes et les Mutations" by Wang Dongliang: he quotes Zhang Zhenglang who was the Chinese scholar who discovered those "bagua" numerals coded on the Zhou bronze vessels. (You are of course right to point out that there were more of them than the 6,7,8,9 that we still know.) And in his opinion, the only first hard evidence we have of graphic full/broken line hexagrams is the silk Mawangdui manuscript dated 168 BC. Before that hard date, everything is more or less good guessing. For the trigrams, Richard Rutt's remarkable book "Zhouyi" includes a translation of the "Zuo Commentary" with the earliest practical I Ching readings known: that "Zuo Commentary" is thought to have been compiled in the 3d century BC. In that text the trigrams have the symbolism we know: wind, mountain... But this is still 500 years after the writing of the divination formulas. There must have been a gradual evolution, starting with formulas grouped in batches of 6 and identied by numbers only (like or 6,7,8,9). Imagine using the I Ching with coins to get the numbers 6-9 and not drawing the hexagram: that's how it probably started. Then gradually the lines were drawn, maybe after several hundred years, and still later the trigrams were thought of. But, as you say, it can't be dated with much precision. Hello from Thomas Visit my Confucius page: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Bridge/8744 >> ### I had my own ideas about the use of different numbers in earlier time and wrote some letters about "the lost 5th change". I'll send them to you privately, as I already published them in hex-8. Anyway, I'm glad to meet somebody with interest to order these developments of I-Ching in the common time-table. Why do you think, that the original text of I-Ching (without commentaries, you call it "divination formulas") developed around 800 BC? If we follow the legend, that it is a production of the early Chou-kings, then we've to look at a time around 1050 BC. Lothar ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2000 20:18:43 +0100 From: "Thomas" Subject: Re: HEX8: Re: Cyrille Javery's history of the YJ Why do you think, that the original text > of I-Ching (without commentaries, you call it "divination formulas") > developed around 800 BC? If we follow the legend, that it is a production of > the early Chou-kings, then we've to look at a time around 1050 BC. > > Lothar Another tough question. Those bronze vases with the 6 number codes engraved on the inside surface are, according to Richard Rutt in his "Zhouyi, The Book of Changes", Shang and early Zhou, so that could point to a date like 1050 BC. But there were many other divination formulas around, and nothing says that those codes refer to the I Ching. Scholars look at the language of the I Ching too, and find many similarities in style with the Book of Odes (a Zhou book of poetry): the oldest of these Odes are dated 8th century BC. Edward Shaughnessy from Chicago, perhaps the leading scholar on the Zhou period, dates the I Ching to the late 9th century BC. Richard Lynn, in the introduction to his "Wang Bi" I Ching translation, suggests the same 9th century. Lynn writes too that "the hexagrams themselves may be much older"! Which fits with the 6 coded numbers on the earlier bronze vases. So there was a lot of divination by sixes going on before the I Ching, and in that sense, the traditional record is right! The numbers did come first. (Although not the graphic yin-yang hexagrams that came much later). (I'll answer your number letters later because I need to read them carefully.) Hello from Thomas Looking for Confucius: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Bridge/8744 ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2000 16:48:42 EST From: Autorbis@aol.com Subject: Re: HEX8: Re: Cyrille Javery's history of the YJ In einer eMail vom 15.03.2000 20:22:27, schreiben Sie: << Why do you think, that the original text > of I-Ching (without commentaries, you call it "divination formulas") > developed around 800 BC? If we follow the legend, that it is a production of > the early Chou-kings, then we've to look at a time around 1050 BC. > > Lothar Another tough question. Those bronze vases with the 6 number codes engraved on the inside surface are, according to Richard Rutt in his "Zhouyi, The Book of Changes", Shang and early Zhou, so that could point to a date like 1050 BC. But there were many other divination formulas around, and nothing says that those codes refer to the I Ching. Scholars look at the language of the I Ching too, and find many similarities in style with the Book of Odes (a Zhou book of poetry): the oldest of these Odes are dated 8th century BC. Edward Shaughnessy from Chicago, perhaps the leading scholar on the Zhou period, dates the I Ching to the late 9th century BC. Richard Lynn, in the introduction to his "Wang Bi" I Ching translation, suggests the same 9th century. Lynn writes too that "the hexagrams themselves may be much older"! Which fits with the 6 coded numbers on the earlier bronze vases. So there was a lot of divination by sixes going on before the I Ching, and in that sense, the traditional record is right! The numbers did come first. (Although not the graphic yin-yang hexagrams that came much later). (I'll answer your number letters later because I need to read them carefully.) Hello from Thomas >> Hi Thomas, in the case, that there are realistical arguments, that the style of the early texts of the divination formulas points towards 8th + 9th century, one has to request the logical conditions of such a statement. 1. there are not many texts as early as the 8th + 9th century or earlier (perhaps my knowledge about this should be refreshed). How should the analysts have enough material to compare and to give such a statement? 2. The text of 8th century might have been modernized at that time or earlier, which is somehow probable, as one should assume, that the chinese scripture and language did probably have some development in the first centuries of the Chou-reignment (cause the Chou were a foreign element, which mixed with the earlier Shang-people, such a mixing always is accompanied by change in various aspects). Then any stylish sign wouldn't say nothing about the real origin. For instance: if you read Defoes "Robinson" in the original or in a modernized form, makes also a huge difference. In the modernized form you couldn't identify it as a work of 17th century. So any argument about the real age stays (naturally) doubtful, I guess. Greetings Lothar ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2000 02:24:25 EST From: FKegan@aol.com Subject: HEX8: Re: poetry and geometry Hi Ely, I am working these days with our Government Census, helping folks who think better in Spanish answer questionnaires written in English. The issues of translation are their own unique area of understanding. One of the things I noted about being bilingual is that meaning is not stored in words since if one is with other bilingual folks you can't easily remember what language things were said in, but can easily render the meanings in either language. I thank you for the quote from the text about law and energy, it is a nice expression of ancient Chinese physics. I can appreciate the poetry and the text, what changes is also being familiar with the geometrical constructions involved so I have very different associations to the passage you quote. That a text uses the word "text" isn't really authority, it is the meaning being expressed (and translated) that I care about. The passage you quote, mixes what would be called "numeral" and "number pattern" with very general (and quite poetic) descriptions of fundamental notions of physics -- that is universal principles or laws and empirical process or energy. The I Ching involves poetry and number and geometrical patterns and imagery from Ancient China and the eternal government bureaucracy as well as the personal input of each person reading and responding to its text, names, images, patterns, etc. None of that detracts from the I Ching as also a system of geometrical number patterns and cyclic symbolism quite parallel to those developed in other cultures through the centuries. Geometry is a universal language and absolute science which is shared around the world over centuries. There is great poetry and the symbolism of life in it as well as in the interpretative texts, whether I Ching or astrology or Pythagorean metaphysics. There are many perspectives, some each of us knows about and others each of us does not. It is not that my heart is not open to poetry--- I write poetic descriptions of the hexagrams and their meaning. Rather I have a different perspective based upon my experience with the oracle, with translations and with the correspondences between symbol systems. As your text quote notes, there is an integration of law and energy, and from Ancient Times geometry has been the royal road to understand both. I am trying to figure out how to explain the beauty and poetry of geometry to those who know only text words. It is a very difficult concept since it is like a universal language of all poetry rather than just the poetic wisps available with mere letters. Perhaps in time we can all open to the experience of one another and see the poetry and the organization of each perspective. Frank ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2000 10:12:17 -0300 From: "Ely Britto" Subject: Re: HEX8: Re: poetry and geometry > The I Ching involves poetry and number and geometrical patterns and >imagery from Ancient China and the eternal government bureaucracy as well as >the personal input of each person reading and responding to its text, names, >images, patterns, etc. None of that detracts from the I Ching as also a >system of geometrical number patterns and cyclic symbolism quite parallel to >those developed in other cultures through the centuries. Geometry is a >universal language and absolute science which is shared around the world over >centuries. There is great poetry and the symbolism of life in it as well as >in the interpretative texts, whether I Ching or astrology or Pythagorean >metaphysics. Thanks Frank and.... > I am trying to figure out how to explain the beauty and poetry of >geometry to those who know only text words. It is a very difficult concept >since it is like a universal language of all poetry rather than just the >poetic wisps available with mere letters. I can understand, this is the reason the ancient sages taught without words, using just the energy and feelings. > Perhaps in time we can all open to the experience of one another and see >the poetry and the organization of each perspective. In Hexagram-8 we are working on this...but sometimes with no success. I am an optmist woman, as you I hope that *in time we can open to the experience of one another and see the poetry and the organization of each perspective.* It would be lovely!! Thanks Ely >Frank > > >===== >To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org >from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2000 22:43:49 -0800 (PST) From: diane haldane Subject: HEX8: eric's i ching does anyone know what translation is used on 'eric's i ching" page? http://www.homebrew.net/ching that one really speaks to me, it is truly amazing how direct it has been, in very uncanny ways, and is actually the one that got me back into studying the i ching. thanks, diane __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2000 17:52:10 -0500 From: "Dr R. Butler" Subject: Re: HEX8: eric's i ching Hi Diane, Based on the one hexagram I received when checking it, the text is derived from the Wilhelm/Baynes version. This particular abridgement of the W/B was widely distributed as "/usr/games/ching" in early versions on the UNIX operating system. All the best, Rhett >does anyone know what translation is used >on 'eric's i ching" page? >http://www.homebrew.net/ching >that one really speaks to me, it is truly >amazing how direct it has been, in very >uncanny ways, and is actually the one that >got me back into studying the i ching. >thanks, diane > >__________________________________________________ >Do You Yahoo!? >Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. >http://im.yahoo.com > > >===== >To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org >from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2000 18:41:32 -0500 From: "Dr R. Butler" Subject: HEX8: King Wen's authorship Hi All, I am wondering if there is *any* evidence that contradicts ascribing the primary authorship of the Names and Judgements of the Hexagrams to the literary King Wen? By primary authorship, I accept that the Duke of Zhou may have amended the text in Hexagram 35, in reference to his younger brother, Kang. Any ideas? All the best, Rhett ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2000 20:04:49 EST From: FKegan@aol.com Subject: Re: HEX8: eric's i ching Hi Diane, The translation on "eric's i ching" is certainly the Wilhelm/Baynes. Perhaps more intriguing would be the random number generation routine used to produce the oracle in response to your question. Of course, it is not just objective details which are usually behind having an oracle or set of oracle particularly call to your spirit. When a friend of mine who was an early computer programmer first showed me the oracle of the I Ching and the Wilhelm/Baynes-- Bollingen Press translation I found myself impressed not with the actual text, but rather with the sense I had when reading it that I was being addressed by a living sage spirit. The experience you had with the oracle's from the Internet was much more the I Ching reaching out to you than anything special about the text. However, the Wilhelm is the standard English translation and it will do you in great stead. Frank ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2000 21:45:08 -0600 From: omei shan Subject: HEX8: A Chi Kung exercise I know it's not *exactly* the I Ching, but... Has anyone ever heard of a Chi Kung practice sometimes called "The Egg Exercise?" Monica ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Mar 2000 02:35:18 -0300 From: "Ely Britto" Subject: Re: HEX8: A Chi Kung exercise Hello Monica, This exercise is part of the Chinese Inner Alchemy as taught by Mantak Chia. It is not *exactly* the I Ching as we know it, it is about energy. It is used to strenght some inner muscle so you can build up the creative energy, transform it and use it to develop spiritual goals. Hope it helps Ely ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2000 21:44:14 -0800 (PST) From: diane haldane Subject: Re: HEX8: eric's i ching hi rhett, thanks for the info. i'm surprised it is wilhelm/baynes, as i didn't really like that translation when i first became interested in the i ching. but, i've changed! this eric never finished his homepage, but i'm sure glad that i ching is still on the net! thanks again, diane ~~~~~~~ - --- "Dr R. Butler" wrote: > Hi Diane, > > Based on the one hexagram I received when checking it, the text is derived > from the Wilhelm/Baynes version. This particular abridgement of the W/B was > widely distributed as "/usr/games/ching" in early versions on the UNIX > operating system. > > All the best, > > Rhett > > > >does anyone know what translation is used > >on 'eric's i ching" page? > >http://www.homebrew.net/ching > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Mar 2000 08:41:49 -0800 From: "carolynne" Subject: Re: HEX8: eric's i ching I can't even imagine using an I Ching translation other than the Wilhelm/Baynes book. The clear and concise vocabulary knocks my socks off every time. Reading and consulting the I Ching has been a study of mine since 1968 and I still feel like a student. It has been an excellent guide for all my questions. There is a good little companion to that edition put out late last year by Jill Richards which may be helpful to some. All the major book stores carry it. carolynne - ----- Original Message ----- From: diane haldane To: Sent: Friday, March 17, 2000 9:44 PM Subject: Re: HEX8: eric's i ching > > > hi rhett, thanks for the info. i'm surprised > it is wilhelm/baynes, as i didn't really like > that translation when i first became interested in the i ching. but, i've changed! > this eric never finished his homepage, but > i'm sure glad that i ching is still on the > net! thanks again, diane > ~~~~~~~ > --- "Dr R. Butler" wrote: > > Hi Diane, > > > > Based on the one hexagram I received when checking it, the text is derived > > from the Wilhelm/Baynes version. This particular abridgement of the W/B was > > widely distributed as "/usr/games/ching" in early versions on the UNIX > > operating system. > > > > All the best, > > > > Rhett > > > > > > >does anyone know what translation is used > > >on 'eric's i ching" page? > > >http://www.homebrew.net/ching > > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. > http://im.yahoo.com > > > ===== > To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org > from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ End of hexagram-8-digest V1 #159 ******************************** From owner-hexagram-8-digest@apocalypse.org Sun Mar 19 15:01:26 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA25355 for hexagram-8-digest-outgoing; Sun, 19 Mar 2000 15:01:26 -0500 Date: Sun, 19 Mar 2000 15:01:26 -0500 Message-Id: <200003192001.PAA25355@apocalypse.org> X-Authentication-Warning: apocalypse.org: majordom set sender to owner-hexagram-8-digest@apocalypse.org using -f From: owner-hexagram-8-digest@apocalypse.org (hexagram-8-digest) To: hexagram-8-digest@apocalypse.org Subject: hexagram-8-digest V1 #160 Reply-To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Sender: owner-hexagram-8-digest@apocalypse.org Errors-To: owner-hexagram-8-digest@apocalypse.org Precedence: bulk hexagram-8-digest Sunday, March 19 2000 Volume 01 : Number 160 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 18 Mar 2000 09:29:32 -0800 From: "carolynne" Subject: Re: HEX8: eric's i ching Sorry, I forgot to give the title of the book I mentioned. It is: The I Ching Companion, An Answer for Every Question by Jill Richards and published by Samuel Weiser, Inc. York Beach, Maine. carolynne - ----- Original Message ----- From: carolynne To: Sent: Saturday, March 18, 2000 8:41 AM Subject: Re: HEX8: eric's i ching > I can't even imagine using an I Ching translation other than the > Wilhelm/Baynes book. The clear and concise vocabulary knocks my socks off > every time. Reading and consulting the I Ching has been a study of mine > since 1968 and I still feel like a student. It has been an excellent guide > for all my questions. There is a good little companion to that edition put > out late last year by Jill Richards which may be helpful to some. All the > major book stores carry it. > carolynne > ----- Original Message ----- > From: diane haldane > To: > Sent: Friday, March 17, 2000 9:44 PM > Subject: Re: HEX8: eric's i ching > > > > > > > > hi rhett, thanks for the info. i'm surprised > > it is wilhelm/baynes, as i didn't really like > > that translation when i first became interested in the i ching. but, i've > changed! > > this eric never finished his homepage, but > > i'm sure glad that i ching is still on the > > net! thanks again, diane > > ~~~~~~~ > > --- "Dr R. Butler" wrote: > > > Hi Diane, > > > > > > Based on the one hexagram I received when checking it, the text is > derived > > > from the Wilhelm/Baynes version. This particular abridgement of the W/B > was > > > widely distributed as "/usr/games/ching" in early versions on the UNIX > > > operating system. > > > > > > All the best, > > > > > > Rhett > > > > > > > > > >does anyone know what translation is used > > > >on 'eric's i ching" page? > > > >http://www.homebrew.net/ching > > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > > Do You Yahoo!? > > Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. > > http://im.yahoo.com > > > > > > ===== > > To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org > > from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. > > > > ===== > To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org > from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Mar 2000 07:52:51 -0500 From: "Dr R. Butler" Subject: Re: HEX8: eric's i ching Hi Diane, The nice thing about this particular abridgement of W/B is just that, the commentary is left out. Rhett >hi rhett, thanks for the info. i'm surprised >it is wilhelm/baynes, as i didn't really like >that translation when i first became interested in the i ching. but, i've >changed! >this eric never finished his homepage, but >i'm sure glad that i ching is still on the >net! thanks again, diane >~~~~~~~ >--- "Dr R. Butler" wrote: >> Hi Diane, >> >> Based on the one hexagram I received when checking it, the text is derived >> from the Wilhelm/Baynes version. This particular abridgement of the W/B was >> widely distributed as "/usr/games/ching" in early versions on the UNIX >> operating system. >> >> All the best, >> >> Rhett >> >> >> >does anyone know what translation is used >> >on 'eric's i ching" page? >> >http://www.homebrew.net/ching >> > >__________________________________________________ >Do You Yahoo!? >Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. >http://im.yahoo.com > > >===== >To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org >from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Mar 2000 12:25:22 -0500 From: "Dr R. Butler" Subject: HEX8: mandate of heaven = Yi ? Hi All, Chronologies of the Zhou indicate that their dynasty is dated not to their conquest of the Shang, but rather about 12 years earlier, when King Wen was acknowledged to have the "mandate of heaven" (tianming). This event apparently occurred shortly after his release from imprisonment at Youli. It is legendary that King Wen [Wen literally mean Literary] devised the Yi while imprisoned at Youli. I submit an idea I have been thinking about for some time. When Wen left Youli with the Yi, he shared it with his Zhou kinsmen, the Many Lords. The Shang are known for divination by tortoise shell; and a military campaign against the Shang, who had recourse to tortoise, may have seemed to be challenging heaven's authority at the time. The Yi was something new, it was easy, and it didn't require a tortoise. Yet in the eyes of those who experienced it, it may have been seen as a gift from heaven. It had come to King Wen, therefore King Wen had heaven's mandate. Hence, the bestowal of heaven's mandate was King Wen's creation of the Yi. Any thoughts? Rhett Reference: Edward L. Shaughnessy Sources of Western Zhou History: Inscribed Bronze Vessels University of California Press, 1991 ISBN 0-520-07028-3 ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Mar 2000 10:52:27 -0800 From: "dlesper or cathbell" Subject: HEX8: i ching and tai chi This is a multi-part message in MIME format. - ------=_NextPart_000_005D_01BF90C8.0D14F740 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable A few months ago I joined our local Taoist Tai Chi society. We've = recently completed the basic set, and I was playing around with the = numberings of the moves the other day.=20 I feel that if a Tai Chi form calls itself Taoist, then there may be a = numerological connection in some form between itself and the I Ching. So = far I haven't discovered anything, but I'll continue searching. Has anyone else had a similar thought? Any experience? Regards, Darren - ------=_NextPart_000_005D_01BF90C8.0D14F740 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
A few months ago I joined our local Taoist = Tai Chi=20 society. We've recently completed the basic set, and I was playing = around with=20 the numberings of the moves the other day.
 
I feel that if a Tai Chi form calls itself = Taoist, then=20 there may be a numerological connection in some form between itself and = the I=20 Ching. So far I haven't discovered anything, but I'll continue=20 searching.
 
Has anyone else had a similar thought? Any experience?
 
Regards,
Darren
 
- ------=_NextPart_000_005D_01BF90C8.0D14F740-- ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Mar 2000 20:11:37 +0000 From: Andreas Schoter Subject: Re: HEX8: i ching and tai chi Hi Darren, At 10:52 18/03/00 -0800, dlesper or cathbell wrote: > A few months ago I joined our local Taoist Tai Chi society. We've >recently completed the basic set, and I was playing around with the >numberings of the moves the other day. I feel that if a Tai Chi form >calls itself Taoist, then there may be a numerological connection in some >form between itself and the I Ching. Historically, whether Taiji is a taoist art is open to debate. Although most styles would say that it was (for example, Wu style, the style I practice traces its origin back to the taoist Chang San Feng) there is some disagreement; Chen style, which many people now acknowledge is the original style from which others developed is not particularly taoist. That said, many of the principles within the art certainly are taoist. If you're interested in a correlation between the Taiji forms and the Yi then you should find yourself a copy of Da Liu's "Tai Chi Chuan and I Ching". The form he uses is essentialy a Yang style form and he provides a gua for each move. >So far I haven't discovered anything, >but I'll continue searching. Has anyone else had a similar thought? Any >experience? In the style I practice, originally from the Wu family, via Cheng Tin Hung in Hong Kong, we don't have a gua for each move. However, we have eight basic "powers" from which all postures and applications can be derived. Each of these powers is associated with one of the trigrams. Specifically: Peng - an upward force - chien, heaven. Li - a sideways diversion - kun, earth. Tsai - a forward thrust - k'an, water. On - a downward force - li, fire. Tsoi - uprooting - sun, wind. Lit - spiralling - chen, lighting. Tsou - use of power through the torso - tui, marsh. Kou - use of the elbow - ken, mountain. Of course, the obvious martial art to check out if you're specifically interested in connections with the Yi is Bagua. All the Best Andreas ____________________________________________________________________________ Five Winds Tai Chi Chuan http://www.weft.telinco.co.uk/taiji mailto:five-winds@telinco.co.uk ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Mar 2000 21:25:21 EST From: Autorbis@aol.com Subject: Re: HEX8: mandate of heaven = Yi ? Hi Rhett, << Hi All, Chronologies of the Zhou indicate that their dynasty is dated not to their conquest of the Shang, but rather about 12 years earlier, when King Wen was acknowledged to have the "mandate of heaven" (tianming). This event apparently occurred shortly after his release from imprisonment at Youli. It is legendary that King Wen [Wen literally mean Literary] devised the Yi while imprisoned at Youli. I submit an idea I have been thinking about for some time. When Wen left Youli with the Yi, he shared it with his Zhou kinsmen, the Many Lords. The Shang are known for divination by tortoise shell; and a military campaign against the Shang, who had recourse to tortoise, may have seemed to be challenging heaven's authority at the time. The Yi was something new, it was easy, and it didn't require a tortoise. Yet in the eyes of those who experienced it, it may have been seen as a gift from heaven. It had come to King Wen, therefore King Wen had heaven's mandate. Hence, the bestowal of heaven's mandate was King Wen's creation of the Yi. Any thoughts? Rhett >> I think, it was Wu, after the death of Wen, who did win against the Shang. And it was the Duke of Chou, who is credited to have written the greater part of I-Ching. The essential thing about King Wen was, that he reigned rather long (about 50 years). So it was difficult to King Wu and the Duke of Chou to overcome the "shadow of the father". And it was normal, that this long-reigning father was credited with "having invented with something". I think, the Duke of Chou as author is much more probable than King Wen. After Wu's death he was a sort of chancellor and educator of the new young king. As an educator he had a rather good chance to be active as a man of literature (which mostly kings are not, as history proves; there are only few writing kings - the "first sons" become rulers and the second and third have a good chance to become intellectual - bishop, pope or something similar; and the people in the second row become the writers). That the Duke of Chou embedded teachings of his father (= King Wen) in the text, looks plausible to me. Somehow he probably had some talking with him. Anyway, the 64 "names" of hexagrams, which are credited to King Wen, are the most unstable part of the text, as the Mawangdui proves (about 30 names are different there). And the head lines of the hexagrams (also credited to Wen) is the most stupid part of the text, definitely another style than the line text, full of repeatings, rather unclear in their meaning. What I could imagine as "historical true": There was a stupid, rather mechanistical reading of oracles in the style of I-Ching before the win of Chou against the Shang. Probably it was common for the Western part of China, whereas the better-living people in the east of China prefered the cultural high-standing tortoise-ritual. The duke of Chou transformed it and gave it a little more elegance. As the Chou were new kings after conquering the Shang (and barbarians in the West), they naturally became in the course of time a little "educated" by the cultural high-standing Shang of the West, with whom they mixed. When the Duke of Chou transformed the older I-Ching, he didn't feel strong enough to change the older and longer existing divination tradition totally. So he took names and head-lines of older sources (which were not necessarily worked out by his father, but might have been believed by his father, who eventually had influenced his son to "believe" in the same way). However, in the line-text he could develop a little more phantasy and creativity. Although this - in the literary sense - is also a "poor" and primitive text (unbelievable poor in the comparition to Homers Ilias and its possibilities of expression, which is of a similar "early" time), it shows much "more" content than this headline stuff. The success of the I-Ching didn't depend on its literary qualities, but on the fact, that its inventors became historically rather successful men. The Chou reigned 800 years about China, that's the I-Ching-success. Nobody would know Romulus and Remus, when the Roman Empire would be missing in history. The Bible wouldn't be a bestseller without King David. Without the victory of Marathon Homer would be unknown. Without the Chou the I-Ching wouldn't exist anymore. Probably then there would be another important book :-) ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Mar 2000 22:11:23 -0600 From: omei shan Subject: Re: HEX8: i ching and tai chi My two cents on an I Ching/Tai Chi Chuan connection. According to my former instructor, there are five major styles of instruction in China: - - Shao Lin, which specialized in animal-based fighting styles - - Hai Nam, which developed the use of fishing implements as fighting tools to a very high degree. According to more than one legend, the Hai Nam eventually evolved into the Ninja. - - Fu Kien. Short, straight, direct. Wing Chun is the best example of a Fu Kien style. - - Wu Dong specialized in coiling, spiraling movements of the spine. Tai Chi Chuan is part of the Wu Dong school. - - Omei specializes in the analysis of human-based movements. Its forte is the I Ching and Baguazhang. So, I guess this is a round-about way of saying that Tai Chi Chuan and the I Ching probably don't derive from the same source (according to whichever legends your school subscribes), but that doesn't mean one cannot use the I Ching to understand Tai Chi. Monica At 08:11 PM 03/18/2000 +0000, you wrote: >Hi Darren, > >At 10:52 18/03/00 -0800, dlesper or cathbell wrote: >> A few months ago I joined our local Taoist Tai Chi society. We've >>recently completed the basic set, and I was playing around with the >>numberings of the moves the other day. I feel that if a Tai Chi form >>calls itself Taoist, then there may be a numerological connection in some >>form between itself and the I Ching. > >Historically, whether Taiji is a taoist art is open to debate. Although >most styles would say that it was (for example, Wu style, the style I >practice traces its origin back to the taoist Chang San Feng) there is some >disagreement; Chen style, which many people now acknowledge is the original >style from which others developed is not particularly taoist. > >That said, many of the principles within the art certainly are taoist. > >If you're interested in a correlation between the Taiji forms and the Yi >then you should find yourself a copy of Da Liu's "Tai Chi Chuan and I >Ching". The form he uses is essentialy a Yang style form and he provides a >gua for each move. > >>So far I haven't discovered anything, >>but I'll continue searching. Has anyone else had a similar thought? Any >>experience? > >In the style I practice, originally from the Wu family, via Cheng Tin Hung >in Hong Kong, we don't have a gua for each move. However, we have eight >basic "powers" from which all postures and applications can be derived. >Each of these powers is associated with one of the trigrams. > >Specifically: > >Peng - an upward force - chien, heaven. >Li - a sideways diversion - kun, earth. >Tsai - a forward thrust - k'an, water. >On - a downward force - li, fire. >Tsoi - uprooting - sun, wind. >Lit - spiralling - chen, lighting. >Tsou - use of power through the torso - tui, marsh. >Kou - use of the elbow - ken, mountain. > >Of course, the obvious martial art to check out if you're specifically >interested in connections with the Yi is Bagua. > >All the Best > >Andreas > >____________________________________________________________________________ >Five Winds Tai Chi Chuan >http://www.weft.telinco.co.uk/taiji >mailto:five-winds@telinco.co.uk > > >===== >To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org >from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. > ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 19 Mar 2000 02:25:46 -0300 From: "Jorge" Subject: Re: HEX8: mandate of heaven = Yi ? Hi, Lothar I think I have to desagree with you. My opinion is that the Yi Jing is still alive between us because it works as an oracle. Many generations of people tried it and founded that it worked, so they valued it, they studied it and so it was not forgotten, independently of its literary qualities (always a problem for the readers, being or not chinese) or historical background. Jorge Vulibrun Florianopolis, Brasil jorgevul@newsite.com.br - -----Mensagem original----- De: Autorbis@aol.com Para: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Data: Sábado, 18 de Março de 2000 23:37 Assunto: Re: HEX8: mandate of heaven = Yi ? >Hi Rhett, > ><< Hi All, > > Chronologies of the Zhou indicate that their dynasty is dated not to their > conquest of the Shang, but rather about 12 years earlier, when King Wen was > acknowledged to have the "mandate of heaven" (tianming). This event > apparently occurred shortly after his release from imprisonment at Youli. > It is legendary that King Wen [Wen literally mean Literary] devised the Yi > while imprisoned at Youli. > > I submit an idea I have been thinking about for some time. When Wen left > Youli with the Yi, he shared it with his Zhou kinsmen, the Many Lords. The > Shang are known for divination by tortoise shell; and a military campaign > against the Shang, who had recourse to tortoise, may have seemed to be > challenging heaven's authority at the time. The Yi was something new, it > was easy, and it didn't require a tortoise. Yet in the eyes of those who > experienced it, it may have been seen as a gift from heaven. It had come to > King Wen, therefore King Wen had heaven's mandate. Hence, the bestowal of > heaven's mandate was King Wen's creation of the Yi. > > Any thoughts? > > Rhett >> > >I think, it was Wu, after the death of Wen, who did win against the Shang. >And it was the Duke of Chou, who is credited to have written the greater part >of I-Ching. >The essential thing about King Wen was, that he reigned rather long (about 50 >years). So it was difficult to King Wu and the Duke of Chou to overcome the >"shadow of the father". And it was normal, that this long-reigning father was >credited with "having invented with something". >I think, the Duke of Chou as author is much more probable than King Wen. >After Wu's death he was a sort of chancellor and educator of the new young >king. As an educator he had a rather good chance to be active as a man of >literature (which mostly kings are not, as history proves; there are only few >writing kings - the "first sons" become rulers and the second and third have >a good chance to become intellectual - bishop, pope or something similar; and >the people in the second row become the writers). That the Duke of Chou >embedded teachings of his father (= King Wen) in the text, looks plausible to >me. Somehow he probably had some talking with him. Anyway, the 64 "names" of >hexagrams, which are credited to King Wen, are the most unstable part of the >text, as the Mawangdui proves (about 30 names are different there). >And the head lines of the hexagrams (also credited to Wen) is the most stupid >part of the text, definitely another style than the line text, full of >repeatings, rather unclear in their meaning. > >What I could imagine as "historical true": There was a stupid, rather >mechanistical reading of oracles in the style of I-Ching before the win of >Chou against the Shang. Probably it was common for the Western part of China, >whereas the better-living people in the east of China prefered the cultural >high-standing tortoise-ritual. The duke of Chou transformed it and gave it a >little more elegance. As the Chou were new kings after conquering the Shang >(and barbarians in the West), they naturally became in the course of time a >little "educated" by the cultural high-standing Shang of the West, with whom >they mixed. >When the Duke of Chou transformed the older I-Ching, he didn't feel strong >enough to change the older and longer existing divination tradition totally. >So he took names and head-lines of older sources (which were not necessarily >worked out by his father, but might have been believed by his father, who >eventually had influenced his son to "believe" in the same way). However, in >the line-text he could develop a little more phantasy and creativity. >Although this - in the literary sense - is also a "poor" and primitive text >(unbelievable poor in the comparition to Homers Ilias and its possibilities >of expression, which is of a similar "early" time), it shows much "more" >content than this headline stuff. > >The success of the I-Ching didn't depend on its literary qualities, but on >the fact, that its inventors became historically rather successful men. The >Chou reigned 800 years about China, that's the I-Ching-success. >Nobody would know Romulus and Remus, when the Roman Empire would be missing >in history. >The Bible wouldn't be a bestseller without King David. >Without the victory of Marathon Homer would be unknown. >Without the Chou the I-Ching wouldn't exist anymore. Probably then there >would be another important book :-) > > >===== >To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org >from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. > ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 19 Mar 2000 03:35:12 -0300 From: "Ely Britto" Subject: Re: HEX8: mandate of heaven = Yi ? >I submit an idea I have been thinking about for some time. When Wen left >Youli with the Yi, he shared it with his Zhou kinsmen, the Many Lords. The >Shang are known for divination by tortoise shell; and a military campaign >against the Shang, who had recourse to tortoise, may have seemed to be >challenging heaven's authority at the time. The Yi was something new, it >was easy, and it didn't require a tortoise. Yet in the eyes of those who >experienced it, it may have been seen as a gift from heaven. It had come to >King Wen, therefore King Wen had heaven's mandate. Hence, the bestowal of >heaven's mandate was King Wen's creation of the Yi. Hi Rhett! Nice thoughts! I think it could be, King Wen seems to be a very special King for his wisdom and benevolence. In ancient times, not only in China, Kings were considered to be the son's of God or the voice of Heaven. I think its possible that the bestowal of heaven's mandate was King Wen's creation of the Yi. Do you think this tittle could means that he got the inspiration from heaven or that the I Ching is talking about the power of heaven? About history: - I prefer to accept the oral transmission history, that states that he created the sequence and the hexagrams and his son the text of the lines. How can we surely know what happened 3000 years ago if sometimes we are not able to affirm what happened 50 years ago in our history? We have many examples of people manipulating historical datas and make they serve their interest and believes in the serious modern history , So I prefer to stay with the words of the wise men from the past. Its nice to see all the interesting things synologues discover about the I Ching, but for me the interest is more in how they come to their conclusion then to change my ideas about the I Ching. The system is here, so let's gets the benefits we can get from it. Love Ely ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 19 Mar 2000 07:59:13 EST From: Autorbis@aol.com Subject: Re: HEX8: mandate of heaven = Yi ? Hi Jorge, nicve to meet you again << Hi, Lothar I think I have to desagree with you. My opinion is that the Yi Jing is still alive between us because it works as an oracle. Many generations of people tried it and founded that it worked, so they valued it, they studied it and so it was not forgotten, independently of its literary qualities (always a problem for the readers, being or not chinese) or historical background. Jorge Vulibrun >> Jorge, I think, the I-Ching approached you as a book of sages of old China and with 3000 years history. Such it could open your heart. Also it came in being connected to a very nice mathematical background. This "literary trick" created the imagination of an "order of the universe", which had been explored by this "old sages" until its very ends. It came in with the approach to "speak the truth". You was impressed. You're not "objective", Jorge :-) The text is poor, written in a archaic scripture, which had only poor ways to express something. But this "archaical thinking" is also impressive, when you're used to use languages mit much more possibilities to express something. It gives a "romantic feeling". Also there are and had been lots of other divination technics, who couldn't claim to be 3000 years old, couldn't claim, to be made by "wise men", which aren't connected to nice mathematical systems (although a lot of them are or had been), which are gone with the wind. Perhaps they also had spoken the truth .... and you doesn't look to them. The primary success of I-Ching might have been that it was ordered or written by kings, which became very successful as person themselves and gave start to a dynasty, that lasted 800 years. Lue-Bu-We, who "gathered" the historical material of China around 250 BC, included a lot of "historical anecdotes" about King Wen, King Wu, the Duke of Chou etc., not to much about the use of divination technics. The historical persons were important to him, not the book, that looks as being of such big importance to us. Lothar Lothar ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 19 Mar 2000 13:00:29 -0300 From: "Jorge" Subject: Re: HEX8: mandate of heaven = Yi ? Hi all I'm back after some personal turmoil; seems that the winds are calmer now ... for a while. Facts of life! Lothar, let me give you my personal opinion: 1) I agree with you that the Zhou Yi HAS "a poor text, written in an archaic scripture, which had only poor ways to express something and has 3000 (+ - 500) years", but 2) the Yi Jing IS a "book of sages of old China" that accumulates the experiences, opinions and efforts of thousands of sages that devoted their time to study, use, value and teach the meanings that they were able to grasp from that poor text and its mathematical background, not always being able to agree between them in their findings. Quoting Shchutskii: "thus the literature on the Book of Changes is an entire library of rather impressive size. It is impossible to deal with it in every detail even in specialized works, but it is also impossible to ignore this truly voluminous literature". All this accumulated meaning is what we receive and should be the basis for an objective view of the book; we cannot think as men of Central China in the XII or X century b.c. so we never will be able to understand the Zhou Yi. 3) Zhu Xi (Chu Hsi, aprox. 1200 a.d. ), one of the biggest landmarks of chinese philosophy, defended the use of the Yi as an oracle, finding in this use a tool for human development. Obviously, there are two levels to use it: the common people looking for an easy way to 'know the future' (whatever that means) and people as you, I and the rest of the HEX8 group that were, in a way or another, hooked by the book, the comentaries, the images and the open meaning they carry, that push us to go deeper and deeper in it. 4) Yes, there are many other divination technics, (here, in Brazil, is very popular one called 'buzios', born in Africa, that uses small mollusk shells) but none of them were so exaustively studied and commented as the Yi. This is what makes the book different from the others. Yes, maybe the Tarot, for example, works well, but depends of the reader, that have to be based only in his/hers intuition and few other parameters. I have to clarify that I think that randomness plays a key role in structuring the world as we see, and live, it, so it's not a surprise that random technics can give us some grasp of that world in which we found living. 5) THERE IS an "order of the Universe", otherwise it would be a chaos instead of a cosmos. (I agree that reading newspapers, sometimes I have to doubt of my own opinion) 6) So, Lothar, I dont care much of King Wen, King Wu, the Duke of Chou, etc., whether they existed or not or if their where powerful or not (although is a nice story, as Ely pointed), but I think that I'm really "objective" ;-) because I sit with the book in front of me, with some (very few!) of its commentaries and some (very very few!) of the other books written in the last 3000 years (in China, India, Europe, etc.) at hand, and pushing my hair trying to grasp the meaning of the Yi, meaning making sense to me and in this moment, living in Brazil in the last minutes of the XX century. Uff!!! to much english for me Tchau Jorge Vulibrun Florianopolis, Brasil jorgevul@newsite.com.br - -----Mensagem original----- De: Autorbis@aol.com Para: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Data: Domingo, 19 de Março de 2000 10:11 Assunto: Re: HEX8: mandate of heaven = Yi ? >Hi Jorge, > >nicve to meet you again > ><< Hi, Lothar > > I think I have to desagree with you. My opinion is that the Yi Jing is still > alive between us because it works as an oracle. Many generations of people > tried it and founded that it worked, so they valued it, they studied it and > so it was not forgotten, independently of its literary qualities (always a > problem for the readers, being or not chinese) or historical background. > > > Jorge Vulibrun >> > >Jorge, I think, the I-Ching approached you as a book of sages of old China >and with 3000 years history. Such it could open your heart. Also it came in >being connected to a very nice mathematical background. This "literary trick" >created the imagination of an "order of the universe", which had been >explored by this "old sages" until its very ends. >It came in with the approach to "speak the truth". You was impressed. > >You're not "objective", Jorge :-) The text is poor, written in a archaic >scripture, which had only poor ways to express something. > >But this "archaical thinking" is also impressive, when you're used to use >languages mit much more possibilities to express something. It gives a >"romantic feeling". > >Also there are and had been lots of other divination technics, who couldn't >claim to be 3000 years old, couldn't claim, to be made by "wise men", which >aren't connected to nice mathematical systems (although a lot of them are or >had been), which are gone with the wind. Perhaps they also had spoken the >truth .... and you doesn't look to them. > >The primary success of I-Ching might have been that it was ordered or written >by kings, which became very successful as person themselves and gave start to >a dynasty, that lasted 800 years. > >Lue-Bu-We, who "gathered" the historical material of China around 250 BC, >included a lot of "historical anecdotes" about King Wen, King Wu, the Duke of >Chou etc., not to much about the use of divination technics. The historical >persons were important to him, not the book, that looks as being of such big >importance to us. > >Lothar > > >Lothar > > >===== >To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org >from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. > ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 19 Mar 2000 08:07:32 -0800 From: "dlesper or cathbell" Subject: Re: HEX8: i ching and tai chi - --- >Historically, whether Taiji is a taoist art is open to debate. Although >most styles would say that it was (for example, Wu style, the style I >practice traces its origin back to the taoist Chang San Feng) there is some >disagreement; Chen style, which many people now acknowledge is the original >style from which others developed is not particularly taoist. The organization I joined is called the "Taoist Tai Chi Society of Canada." The info I have on it says it was founded in 1970 by Moy Lin-shin, a Taoist monk of the Earlier Heaven Wu-chi sect of the Hua Shan school. The society does, however, practice other taoists arts, such as meditation and chi-kung. Through its sister organization, the "Fung Lok Institute of Taoism," one explores more the world of internal alchemy and the Taoist Canon. Our particular centre is co-located with a Taoist temple, though I don't think that's the case with most centres. There's some 500 centres in Canada (in a country with only 3 cities over 1 million people that's a lot of centres!), so I can go just about anywhere for a practise session. I think there's another 200 others around the world. >If you're interested in a correlation between the Taiji forms and the Yi >then you should find yourself a copy of Da Liu's "Tai Chi Chuan and I >Ching". The form he uses is essentialy a Yang style form and he provides a >gua for each move. Thank you Andreas! Thank was exactly the type of thing I was looking for! >Of course, the obvious martial art to check out if you're specifically >interested in connections with the Yi is Bagua. I've never heard of that. I'll have to keep my eyes open for a practioner. I think that would be very interesting! Regards, Darren ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 19 Mar 2000 09:16:09 -0800 From: Ray Langley Subject: HEX8: BaGua/Paqua, was: i ching and tai chi > >Of course, the obvious martial art to check out if you're specifically > >interested in connections with the Yi is Bagua. > > I've never heard of that. I'll have to keep my eyes open for a practioner. I > think that would be very interesting! > > Regards, Darren Hi Darren, here is one site: http://www.geocities.com/Tokyo/Fuji/9797/ Also, because of the many different spoken dialects and forms of romanization, this art may go by the name(s) of: PaKua, Pa Qua, PaQua, Ba Gua, BaGua, Ba Gwa, or BaGwa. - -- Warmest Regards, Ray Have Luo Pan, Will Travel! ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 19 Mar 2000 09:34:40 -0800 From: Ray Langley Subject: Re: HEX8: mandate of heaven = Yi ? > 6) So, Lothar, I dont care much of King Wen, King Wu, the Duke of Chou, > etc., whether they existed or not or if their where powerful or not > (although is a nice story, as Ely pointed), but I think that I'm really > "objective" ;-) because I sit with the book in front of me, with some (very > few!) of its commentaries and some (very very few!) of the other books > written in the last 3000 years (in China, India, Europe, etc.) at hand, and > pushing my hair trying to grasp the meaning of the Yi, meaning making sense > to me and in this moment, living in Brazil in the last minutes of the XX > century. > > Uff!!! to much english for me > Tchau, Jorge Vulibrun > Florianopolis, Brasil Hello Jorge, there is a new I Ching list in Portuguese: "Esta lista pretende unir as pessoas que querem estudar e discutir seriamente o I Ching. Serão Bem Vindos todos aqueles que querem discutir sua história- sua relação com a ciência ocidental, a psicologia, a matemática, a Física Quantica e o papel do I Ching na transformação e aperfeiçoamento do ser humano." Click here to join: http://www.onelist.com/subscribe/OIching - -- Warmest Regards, Ray Have Luo Pan, Will Travel! ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 19 Mar 2000 14:54:39 -0500 From: "Dr R. Butler" Subject: Re: HEX8: mandate of heaven = Yi ? Hi Lothar and Jorge, > >nicve to meet you again > ><< Hi, Lothar > > I think I have to desagree with you. My opinion is that the Yi Jing is still > alive between us because it works as an oracle. Many generations of people > tried it and founded that it worked, so they valued it, they studied it and > so it was not forgotten, independently of its literary qualities (always a > problem for the readers, being or not chinese) or historical background. > > > Jorge Vulibrun >> > >Jorge, I think, the I-Ching approached you as a book of sages of old China >and with 3000 years history. Such it could open your heart. Also it came in >being connected to a very nice mathematical background. This "literary trick" >created the imagination of an "order of the universe", which had been >explored by this "old sages" until its very ends. >It came in with the approach to "speak the truth". You was impressed. When I first looked into the Yi, I knew nothing of its history, the Sages and Kings, or its traditions. Coming from a rational, scientific background, the very concept of it could not seem to make sense. Yet, experience is a great teacher. > >You're not "objective", Jorge :-) The text is poor, written in a archaic >scripture, which had only poor ways to express something. > >But this "archaical thinking" is also impressive, when you're used to use >languages mit much more possibilities to express something. It gives a >"romantic feeling". Perhaps. Yet a haiku can express as deep a feeling of a moment than thousands of words of allegory. > >Also there are and had been lots of other divination technics, who couldn't >claim to be 3000 years old, couldn't claim, to be made by "wise men", which >aren't connected to nice mathematical systems (although a lot of them are or >had been), which are gone with the wind. Perhaps they also had spoken the >truth .... and you doesn't look to them. "There is to my knowledge no nation, no matter how cultivated and learned or rude and barbaric, which does not believe that future events are discernible and that they can be understood and predicted by certain people." - Cicero from De Divinatione > >The primary success of I-Ching might have been that it was ordered or written >by kings, which became very successful as person themselves and gave start to >a dynasty, that lasted 800 years. > >Lue-Bu-We, who "gathered" the historical material of China around 250 BC, >included a lot of "historical anecdotes" about King Wen, King Wu, the Duke of >Chou etc., not to much about the use of divination technics. The historical >persons were important to him, not the book, that looks as being of such big >importance to us. > There are clearly many perspectives on the success of the Yi and its place in the history of China. I very much enjoy these discussions. All the best, Rhett ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ End of hexagram-8-digest V1 #160 ******************************** From owner-hexagram-8-digest@apocalypse.org Sun Mar 19 21:53:18 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id VAA13336 for hexagram-8-digest-outgoing; Sun, 19 Mar 2000 21:53:18 -0500 Date: Sun, 19 Mar 2000 21:53:18 -0500 Message-Id: <200003200253.VAA13336@apocalypse.org> X-Authentication-Warning: apocalypse.org: majordom set sender to owner-hexagram-8-digest@apocalypse.org using -f From: owner-hexagram-8-digest@apocalypse.org (hexagram-8-digest) To: hexagram-8-digest@apocalypse.org Subject: hexagram-8-digest V1 #161 Reply-To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Sender: owner-hexagram-8-digest@apocalypse.org Errors-To: owner-hexagram-8-digest@apocalypse.org Precedence: bulk hexagram-8-digest Sunday, March 19 2000 Volume 01 : Number 161 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 19 Mar 2000 14:53:27 -0500 From: "Dr R. Butler" Subject: Re: HEX8: mandate of heaven = Yi ? Hi Ely, I always enjoy your positive vibrations... > >Hi Rhett! >Nice thoughts! I think it could be, King Wen seems to be a very special King >for his wisdom and benevolence. In ancient times, not only in China, Kings >were considered to be the son's of God or the voice of Heaven. I think its >possible that the bestowal of heaven's mandate was King Wen's creation of >the Yi. Do you think this tittle could means that he got the inspiration >from heaven or that the I Ching is talking about the power of heaven? The character "heaven" here is Tian, which is also sky or high. Tian is where dragons fly, as in Hexagram 1, Line 5. > >About history: - I prefer to accept the oral transmission history, that >states that he created the sequence and the hexagrams and his son the text >of the lines. How can we surely know what happened 3000 years ago if >sometimes we are not able to affirm what happened 50 years ago in our >history? We have many examples of people manipulating historical datas and >make they serve their interest and believes in the serious modern history , >So I prefer to stay with the words of the wise men from the past. Its nice >to see all the interesting things synologues discover about the I Ching, but >for me the interest is more in how they come to their conclusion then to >change my ideas about the I Ching. The system is here, so let's gets the >benefits we can get from it. > >Love >Ely > I too love the ancient tradition. Yet the Tao shows us things in this life, and I enjoy seeing how the pieces and ideas fit and complement, since all is One. 3,000 years of history are met with oracle bones that tell us more of this marvelous past. Archeology is a like moment of chance, for that which survives history's storms and may at last or never be uncovered is as a roll of the dice. Such events resonate with the Yi. Love Rhett ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 19 Mar 2000 15:00:29 -0500 From: "Dr R. Butler" Subject: Re: HEX8: mandate of heaven = Yi ? Hi Lothar, I appreciated your comments & offer a few in reply... > >I think, it was Wu, after the death of Wen, who did win against the Shang. >And it was the Duke of Chou, who is credited to have written the greater part >of I-Ching. Yes. According to Shaugnessy's discussion of Sima Qian's relative chronology of events King Wu [which mean "military"] who defeated the Shang in Year 12. King Wen died in year 7. The acknowledgement of the mandate was year 1. Wen is said to have had 10 primary sons. His oldest, Kao, pre-deceased him, Fa who became King Wu was Wen's second son, Dan [Duke of Zhou] was fourth, and Kang [of Hexagram 35 fame] was ninth. The Duke of Zhou is credited with writing most of the Line text. [of course since there are 6 per Hexagram, this is the largest textual part of the ZhouYi part of the Yi] >The essential thing about King Wen was, that he reigned rather long (about 50 >years). So it was difficult to King Wu and the Duke of Chou to overcome the >"shadow of the father". And it was normal, that this long-reigning father was >credited with "having invented with something". Wen was the head of the house of Zhou, under the Shang. Perhaps the credit was deserved in that he did invent it? >I think, the Duke of Chou as author is much more probable than King Wen. >After Wu's death he was a sort of chancellor and educator of the new young >king. As an educator he had a rather good chance to be active as a man of >literature (which mostly kings are not, as history proves; there are only few >writing kings - the "first sons" become rulers and the second and third have >a good chance to become intellectual - bishop, pope or something similar; and >the people in the second row become the writers). Wu died just two years after the conquest. The Duke of Zhou, acted as regent for seven years for his nephew, Wu's eldest son, Song [who became King Cheng]. During this time he had to put down a Shang rebellion, and extended and consolidated Zhou control throughout all of eastern China. >That the Duke of Chou >embedded teachings of his father (= King Wen) in the text, looks plausible to >me. Somehow he probably had some talking with him. Anyway, the 64 "names" of >hexagrams, which are credited to King Wen, are the most unstable part of the >text, as the Mawangdui proves (about 30 names are different there). Thirty-three of the sixty-four Names in the Mawangdui text differ in some degree from the received text. Many of these are phonetic loan character (possible scribal error in transcription from a verbal tradition) and simple graphical variation. In some significant cases, the silk text is damaged or unreadable, and the Names have been extrapolated (guessed). Even within the Mawangdui material, there are commentaries which allude to the received text. Shaugnessy notes historical references indicated that the received text existed in its current form prior to the Mawangdui ms. Is the glass a little empty of nearly full? For me the most compelling information from the Mawangdui ms is the overall stability of the YiJing text, based upon this exciting archeological find. The glass is nearly full. >And the head lines of the hexagrams (also credited to Wen) is the most stupid >part of the text, definitely another style than the line text, full of >repeatings, rather unclear in their meaning. This same terseness and obscurity is the most open for symbolic interpretation. The Names and Judgements set the stage for the Lines. Though it is difficult, try to imagine reading the Yi without its Names and Judgements. What would be the context? > >What I could imagine as "historical true": There was a stupid, rather >mechanistical reading of oracles in the style of I-Ching before the win of >Chou against the Shang. Probably it was common for the Western part of China, >whereas the better-living people in the east of China prefered the cultural >high-standing tortoise-ritual. The duke of Chou transformed it and gave it a >little more elegance. As the Chou were new kings after conquering the Shang >(and barbarians in the West), they naturally became in the course of time a >little "educated" by the cultural high-standing Shang of the West, with whom >they mixed. The Zhou were well informed of the Shang, and part of Shang society. King Wen was even married to a daughter of the Shang Emperor Di Yi, who was the Emperor prior to the conquered Di Xin. >When the Duke of Chou transformed the older I-Ching, he didn't feel strong >enough to change the older and longer existing divination tradition totally. >So he took names and head-lines of older sources (which were not necessarily >worked out by his father, but might have been believed by his father, who >eventually had influenced his son to "believe" in the same way). However, in >the line-text he could develop a little more phantasy and creativity. This is not inconsistent with Wen devising the Names and Judgements. >Although this - in the literary sense - is also a "poor" and primitive text >(unbelievable poor in the comparition to Homers Ilias and its possibilities >of expression, which is of a similar "early" time), it shows much "more" >content than this headline stuff. Perhaps this is comparing apples to oranges. I have enjoyed the Odyssey and the Iliad, though not in the Greek. These epic poems date to the 8th (perhaps 9th) centuries BC. The Chinese have their Book of Odes, though not of epic scale. I enjoy the Yi, not so much in the Story it tells of ancient China, but how it helps to tell the story around me today. > >The success of the I-Ching didn't depend on its literary qualities, but on >the fact, that its inventors became historically rather successful men. The >Chou reigned 800 years about China, that's the I-Ching-success. >Nobody would know Romulus and Remus, when the Roman Empire would be missing >in history. >The Bible wouldn't be a bestseller without King David. >Without the victory of Marathon Homer would be unknown. >Without the Chou the I-Ching wouldn't exist anymore. Probably then there >would be another important book :-) > We are here and now, and there is a history before. Without the Zhou, would we be having a discussion on turtle-shell@apocalypse.org? This is the stuff of a Philip K. Dick novel. (perhaps in a parallel universe we are :-) All the best, Rhett ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 19 Mar 2000 19:39:26 -0300 From: "Jorge" Subject: Re: HEX8: mandate of heaven = Yi ? Hi all Rhett, you said: >Even within the Mawangdui material, there are commentaries which allude to >the received text. Shaugnessy notes historical references indicated that >the received text existed in its current form prior to the Mawangdui ms. ******** The received text is clearly prior to the Mawangdui manuscript. In the Ta Chuan (B VII,2; W/B page 345) there is the well known 'sequence of character formation' in which the hexagrams are presented in the same ascending order than the received text. In the Mawangdui ms, in the 'Properties of the change' wing (Shaughnessy, page 231), the same sequence are presented in the SAME order, totally unrelated to the Mawangdui's sequence. There is only one significant difference that not modifies the basic order: H59 substitutes H57 as the last hexagram of the sequence. Obviously, this means that, at the time of the 'Properties ...' writing, another version following the received text order was already well known and considered more important, because used as a reference for constructing the sequence. My personal opinion is that the particular format of the Mawangdui ms was writen to facilitate oracular consultations at a moment in which the trigrams were beggining to be considered important and used as a reference (actually it can be used as indirect evidence of when the trigrams were beggining to be important). Any thougths regarding the substitution of H57 by H59? Tchau Jorge Vulibrun Florianopolis, Brasil jorgevul@newsite.com.br - -----Mensagem original----- De: Dr R. Butler Para: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Data: Domingo, 19 de Março de 2000 17:13 Assunto: Re: HEX8: mandate of heaven = Yi ? >Hi Lothar, > >I appreciated your comments & offer a few in reply... > > >> >>I think, it was Wu, after the death of Wen, who did win against the Shang. >>And it was the Duke of Chou, who is credited to have written the greater part >>of I-Ching. > >Yes. According to Shaugnessy's discussion of Sima Qian's relative >chronology of events King Wu [which mean "military"] who defeated the Shang >in Year 12. King Wen died in year 7. The acknowledgement of the mandate was >year 1. Wen is said to have had 10 primary sons. His oldest, Kao, >pre-deceased him, Fa who became King Wu was Wen's second son, Dan [Duke of >Zhou] was fourth, and Kang [of Hexagram 35 fame] was ninth. The Duke of >Zhou is credited with writing most of the Line text. [of course since there >are 6 per Hexagram, this is the largest textual part of the ZhouYi part of >the Yi] > >>The essential thing about King Wen was, that he reigned rather long (about 50 >>years). So it was difficult to King Wu and the Duke of Chou to overcome the >>"shadow of the father". And it was normal, that this long-reigning father was >>credited with "having invented with something". > >Wen was the head of the house of Zhou, under the Shang. Perhaps the credit >was deserved in that he did invent it? > >>I think, the Duke of Chou as author is much more probable than King Wen. >>After Wu's death he was a sort of chancellor and educator of the new young >>king. As an educator he had a rather good chance to be active as a man of >>literature (which mostly kings are not, as history proves; there are only few >>writing kings - the "first sons" become rulers and the second and third have >>a good chance to become intellectual - bishop, pope or something similar; and >>the people in the second row become the writers). > >Wu died just two years after the conquest. The Duke of Zhou, acted as >regent for seven years for his nephew, Wu's eldest son, Song [who became >King Cheng]. During this time he had to put down a Shang rebellion, and >extended and consolidated Zhou control throughout all of eastern China. > >>That the Duke of Chou >>embedded teachings of his father (= King Wen) in the text, looks plausible to >>me. Somehow he probably had some talking with him. Anyway, the 64 "names" of >>hexagrams, which are credited to King Wen, are the most unstable part of the >>text, as the Mawangdui proves (about 30 names are different there). > >Thirty-three of the sixty-four Names in the Mawangdui text differ in some >degree from the received text. Many of these are phonetic loan character >(possible scribal error in transcription from a verbal tradition) and >simple graphical variation. In some significant cases, the silk text is >damaged or unreadable, and the Names have been extrapolated (guessed). > >Even within the Mawangdui material, there are commentaries which allude to >the received text. Shaugnessy notes historical references indicated that >the received text existed in its current form prior to the Mawangdui ms. > >Is the glass a little empty of nearly full? For me the most compelling >information from the Mawangdui ms is the overall stability of the YiJing >text, based upon this exciting archeological find. The glass is nearly full. > > >>And the head lines of the hexagrams (also credited to Wen) is the most stupid >>part of the text, definitely another style than the line text, full of >>repeatings, rather unclear in their meaning. > >This same terseness and obscurity is the most open for symbolic >interpretation. The Names and Judgements set the stage for the Lines. >Though it is difficult, try to imagine reading the Yi without its Names and >Judgements. What would be the context? > >> >>What I could imagine as "historical true": There was a stupid, rather >>mechanistical reading of oracles in the style of I-Ching before the win of >>Chou against the Shang. Probably it was common for the Western part of China, >>whereas the better-living people in the east of China prefered the cultural >>high-standing tortoise-ritual. The duke of Chou transformed it and gave it a >>little more elegance. As the Chou were new kings after conquering the Shang >>(and barbarians in the West), they naturally became in the course of time a >>little "educated" by the cultural high-standing Shang of the West, with whom >>they mixed. > >The Zhou were well informed of the Shang, and part of Shang society. King >Wen was even married to a daughter of the Shang Emperor Di Yi, who was the >Emperor prior to the conquered Di Xin. > > >When the Duke of Chou transformed the older I-Ching, he didn't feel strong >>enough to change the older and longer existing divination tradition totally. >>So he took names and head-lines of older sources (which were not necessarily >>worked out by his father, but might have been believed by his father, who >>eventually had influenced his son to "believe" in the same way). However, in >>the line-text he could develop a little more phantasy and creativity. > >This is not inconsistent with Wen devising the Names and Judgements. > >>Although this - in the literary sense - is also a "poor" and primitive text >>(unbelievable poor in the comparition to Homers Ilias and its possibilities >>of expression, which is of a similar "early" time), it shows much "more" >>content than this headline stuff. > >Perhaps this is comparing apples to oranges. I have enjoyed the Odyssey and >the Iliad, though not in the Greek. These epic poems date to the 8th >(perhaps 9th) centuries BC. The Chinese have their Book of Odes, though not >of epic scale. I enjoy the Yi, not so much in the Story it tells of ancient >China, but how it helps to tell the story around me today. > >> >>The success of the I-Ching didn't depend on its literary qualities, but on >>the fact, that its inventors became historically rather successful men. The >>Chou reigned 800 years about China, that's the I-Ching-success. >>Nobody would know Romulus and Remus, when the Roman Empire would be missing >>in history. >>The Bible wouldn't be a bestseller without King David. >>Without the victory of Marathon Homer would be unknown. >>Without the Chou the I-Ching wouldn't exist anymore. Probably then there >>would be another important book :-) >> > >We are here and now, and there is a history before. Without the Zhou, would >we be having a discussion on turtle-shell@apocalypse.org? This is the stuff >of a Philip K. Dick novel. (perhaps in a parallel universe we are :-) > >All the best, > >Rhett > > > > >===== >To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org >from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. > ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 19 Mar 2000 18:18:59 EST From: RCol547987@aol.com Subject: Re: HEX8: mandate of heaven = Yi ? Dr. Butler. You wrote: ++++I submit an idea I have been thinking about for some time. When Wen left Youli with the Yi, he shared it with his Zhou kinsmen, the Many Lords. The Shang are known for divination by tortoise shell; and a military campaign against the Shang, who had recourse to tortoise, may have seemed to be challenging heaven's authority at the time. The Yi was something new, it was easy, and it didn't require a tortoise. Yet in the eyes of those who experienced it, it may have been seen as a gift from heaven. It had come to King Wen, therefore King Wen had heaven's mandate. Hence, the bestowal of heaven's mandate was King Wen's creation of the Yi. Any thoughts? ++++ RC: Good thinking. Thomas Cleary advanced a similar theory in his (I believe) translation of the Taoist I Ching. According to legend it was Fu Xi who developed both the 8-graphs and 64-graphs. The system he used for teaching the bagua was in oral form (writing was not yet invented) using simple poem-messages for easy memory. When King Wen was imprisoned by Jou the Terrible, he (Wen) somehow got his his hands on Fu Xi's graphs. (How this was achieved is a mystery that I have labored over for decades -- unless the WISE King Wen had a mental picture of the Early Heaven Sequence in his head -- maybe not too hard to imagine.) Anyway, as we know from the received record, King Wen had re-arranged the original graphs of Fu Xi (how? pen and paper weren't invented/yarrow stalks spread out on the prison floor -- nah.. /maybe pictures in the sand?) But the reason, according to Cleary , was to keep it's meaning disguised from Jou of Shang. Why would he disguise it? Unless, as you indicated, it was a kind of power-play against Jou and he (Wen) wanted the power to shift from tortoise to stalks. The problem here is why, after King Wen was released from prison (Jou bought Wen's bribe of horses, women, etc.) did he not return the graphs back to their original from? I think much of the interest in the Zhou Yi has to do with trying to make sense of the re-arranged hexagrams. Shaughnessy's Mawandui translation has no greater structual balance than the King Wen graphs. Both fall short of the poetry and geometry of the original Fu Xi charts. In peace, Roy Collins ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 19 Mar 2000 20:28:20 EST From: Autorbis@aol.com Subject: Re: HEX8: mandate of heaven = Yi ? Hi Jorge, I do love you and your serious approach to I-Ching :-), no matter, that I do struggle hard for some sense of reality in this also loved field of human exploration called I-Ching-research ;-) < Lothar, let me give you my personal opinion: 1) I agree with you that the Zhou Yi HAS "a poor text, written in an archaic scripture, which had only poor ways to express something and has 3000 (+ - 500) years", but 2) the Yi Jing IS a "book of sages of old China" that accumulates the experiences, opinions and efforts of thousands of sages that devoted their time to study, use, value and teach the meanings that they were able to grasp from that poor text and its mathematical background, not always being able to agree between them in their findings. Quoting Shchutskii: "thus the literature on the Book of Changes is an entire library of rather impressive size. It is impossible to deal with it in every detail even in specialized works, but it is also impossible to ignore this truly voluminous literature". All this accumulated meaning is what we receive and should be the basis for an objective view of the book; we cannot think as men of Central China in the XII or X century b.c. so we never will be able to understand the Zhou Yi. ### Who or what are these damned (please excuse :-)) sages? If they were really king-like persons like Wen, Wu, Duke of Chou etc. responsible for the I-Ching, then they were successful politicans of their time with the ability to manipulate the people in a certain direction, which was especially good for the interests of their own. If you generally declare such people as sages, I've to wonder. All, what we really know of them, is, that they were historically successful in arranging a positive historical press, which makes them look good and which made the latest Shang look bad. Which justified their taking of the "mandate of heaven", which formerly belongs to the Shang. Those "sages", which came later and idealized the I-Ching to that what we know of it, might well have been people, who caught the opportunity to reassure, that the Chou-reignment is and was a good one, eventually cause ty knew about a way, how to take profit of such statements. In German we do call such people "opportunists", not sages. The fact, that there are 1000s of writings about the I-Ching in Chinese doesn't say something about "being holy" or whatever. In Western literature production we've also 1000s of old writings about Platonism, about Aristotelism, about Stoicism, about astrology, about mathematics etc.. It doesn't lead to our conclusion, that Platon or Aristoteles or anybody else was holy or a sage, as we know, that Platon and Aristoteles had differences in their opinions and that these sort of differences doesn't allow the termini "holy" or "sages". They simply were humans with normal errors. What does give reason, that we do speak so easily and uncritical of old chinese sages and holy men there? Let me tell you my speculation: It - probably - simply was Richard Wilhelm, who took the chose to translate some chinese terms with "holy" and "sages". As he had a deciding role in the transmission of old Chinese texts into European languages, he was able to build "our" view of old China in a decisive way, changing the normal bloody reality of history in a romantic ideal. Chinese emperors usually didn't behave "better" or "more worse" than their European colleagues. Chinese scholars weren't in a moral sense probably not better people as their western concurrents. ### 3) Zhu Xi (Chu Hsi, aprox. 1200 a.d. ), one of the biggest landmarks of chinese philosophy, defended the use of the Yi as an oracle, finding in this use a tool for human development. Obviously, there are two levels to use it: the common people looking for an easy way to 'know the future' (whatever that means) and people as you, I and the rest of the HEX8 group that were, in a way or another, hooked by the book, the comentaries, the images and the open meaning they carry, that push us to go deeper and deeper in it. 4) Yes, there are many other divination technics, (here, in Brazil, is very popular one called 'buzios', born in Africa, that uses small mollusk shells) but none of them were so exaustively studied and commented as the Yi. This is what makes the book different from the others. Yes, maybe the Tarot, for example, works well, but depends of the reader, that have to be based only in his/hers intuition and few other parameters. I have to clarify that I think that randomness plays a key role in structuring the world as we see, and live, it, so it's not a surprise that random technics can give us some grasp of that world in which we found living. ### There is actually more than one divination also technic in China. Well, okay, it might be said, that eventually the I-Ching is the "greatest" divination technic in history. In Western countries this "important" role in classical time (especially Roman times) was taken probably by astrology in general. Tarot is too young to be historically important, although it seems to be in Western countries definitely more popular today. Western esoterical arts look doesn't look so big, as "modern times" started earlier in Europe than in China. Chinese konservatism formed this nowadays leading role in divination technics, probably this is nothing what a Chinese is rather proud of. ### 5) THERE IS an "order of the Universe", otherwise it would be a chaos instead of a cosmos. (I agree that reading newspapers, sometimes I have to doubt of my own opinion) #### Of course there is always one :-). But in reality it often looks a little more complex than this nice binary code with 6 bits, that was used in I-Ching and at a lot of other places all around the world :-) ''' 6) So, Lothar, I dont care much of King Wen, King Wu, the Duke of Chou, etc., whether they existed or not or if their where powerful or not (although is a nice story, as Ely pointed), but I think that I'm really "objective" ;-) because I sit with the book in front of me, with some (very few!) of its commentaries and some (very very few!) of the other books written in the last 3000 years (in China, India, Europe, etc.) at hand, and pushing my hair trying to grasp the meaning of the Yi, meaning making sense to me and in this moment, living in Brazil in the last minutes of the XX century. Uff!!! to much english for me >> ### Have a nice time, and please excuse my unromantical approach :-) Lothar ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 19 Mar 2000 20:28:32 EST From: Autorbis@aol.com Subject: Re: HEX8: mandate of heaven = Yi ? Hi Rhett << Hi Lothar, I appreciated your comments & offer a few in reply... ### well done :-) > >I think, it was Wu, after the death of Wen, who did win against the Shang. >And it was the Duke of Chou, who is credited to have written the greater part >of I-Ching. Yes. According to Shaugnessy's discussion of Sima Qian's relative chronology of events King Wu [which mean "military"] who defeated the Shang in Year 12. King Wen died in year 7. The acknowledgement of the mandate was year 1. Wen is said to have had 10 primary sons. His oldest, Kao, pre-deceased him, Fa who became King Wu was Wen's second son, Dan [Duke of Zhou] was fourth, and Kang [of Hexagram 35 fame] was ninth. The Duke of Zhou is credited with writing most of the Line text. [of course since there are 6 per Hexagram, this is the largest textual part of the ZhouYi part of the Yi] >The essential thing about King Wen was, that he reigned rather long (about 50 >years). So it was difficult to King Wu and the Duke of Chou to overcome the >"shadow of the father". And it was normal, that this long-reigning father was >credited with "having invented with something". Wen was the head of the house of Zhou, under the Shang. Perhaps the credit was deserved in that he did invent it? ### Of course this possibility can't be excluded. However, researching unanswerable questions like the authorship of I-Ching - in my humble opinion - - demands phantasy under control, a sense of probability and - feeling (not very objective tools, of course :-)). "My" feeling tells me, that the role of King Wen in history isn't ideal to be the author. Some impressions during my research of the text (the translation project, you remember probably) told me, that there seems to be a good chance, that the line text was written really short after the victory against the Shang. Wen was dead then. The duke of Dschou had the ideal role to write and to use the divination book as a tool to reign the state after a longer periode of war. That he took something of Wen eventually - why not. But that's as if he had put some citations in his text. The real author seems to be him. That he credited his father - chinese culture had always a rather special sense for obedience against the dead and also modesty. Actually he did the writing of the book, but it was normal, that he credited his father (my feeling says this :-)) The real modesty of the Duke of Chou became obvious, when he gave the reignment back to the son of Wu. But actually - the periode of the Golden Time of the Chou was - probably - the work of the Duke of Chou, not the work of Wu, who reigned only 2 years, and not the work of King Wen, who seems to have prepared this good outcome. That the duke of Chou looks historically like the smaller person against his "great father", that is chinese modesty par excellence. In Western worlds everybody knows Alexander the Great, but Phillipp the Macedon (his father) is in the background (although this one was so wise to let Alexander educate by Aristoteles :-)) >I think, the Duke of Chou as author is much more probable than King Wen. >After Wu's death he was a sort of chancellor and educator of the new young >king. As an educator he had a rather good chance to be active as a man of >literature (which mostly kings are not, as history proves; there are only few >writing kings - the "first sons" become rulers and the second and third have >a good chance to become intellectual - bishop, pope or something similar; and >the people in the second row become the writers). Wu died just two years after the conquest. The Duke of Zhou, acted as regent for seven years for his nephew, Wu's eldest son, Song [who became King Cheng]. During this time he had to put down a Shang rebellion, and extended and consolidated Zhou control throughout all of eastern China. ### >That the Duke of Chou >embedded teachings of his father (= King Wen) in the text, looks plausible to >me. Somehow he probably had some talking with him. Anyway, the 64 "names" of >hexagrams, which are credited to King Wen, are the most unstable part of the >text, as the Mawangdui proves (about 30 names are different there). Thirty-three of the sixty-four Names in the Mawangdui text differ in some degree from the received text. Many of these are phonetic loan character (possible scribal error in transcription from a verbal tradition) and simple graphical variation. In some significant cases, the silk text is damaged or unreadable, and the Names have been extrapolated (guessed). Even within the Mawangdui material, there are commentaries which allude to the received text. Shaugnessy notes historical references indicated that the received text existed in its current form prior to the Mawangdui ms. Is the glass a little empty of nearly full? For me the most compelling information from the Mawangdui ms is the overall stability of the YiJing text, based upon this exciting archeological find. The glass is nearly full. ### I agree. The existence of the Mawangdui more proves the stability of the text than its insecurity. But also it opens the eyes, that there are lots of ways, how the text might have changed a little bit. ### >And the head lines of the hexagrams (also credited to Wen) is the most stupid >part of the text, definitely another style than the line text, full of >repeatings, rather unclear in their meaning. This same terseness and obscurity is the most open for symbolic interpretation. The Names and Judgements set the stage for the Lines. Though it is difficult, try to imagine reading the Yi without its Names and Judgements. What would be the context? ### I think, that the mathematical construction (and its use in divination) of the I-Ching is much older than King Wen and the Duke of chou. I could imagine, the Duke of Chou wrote a new textbook (if there was one before him, but perhaps this earlier oracle worked only with oral traditions or unwritten notations), and perhaps he developed the most constructive idea, that "change" is a change between hexagrams, so that in a oracle 2 hexagrams must to be considered. Perhaps the result in the earlier oracle had only one hexagram as answer. When this one-hexagram-oracle was far-spread before King Wen, then it was natural, that there existed more than one name for each hexagram. This might have led in a long consequence to the great insecurity in the Mawangdui about hexagram names. When the text-book of the duke of Chou was the first version with line texts and the first suggesting to look at 2 hexagrams as result without any earlier concurrent, then this might explain, why the Mawangdui is more or less stable in this part of the text, but unstable regarding the names. >What I could imagine as "historical true": There was a stupid, rather >mechanistical reading of oracles in the style of I-Ching before the win of >Chou against the Shang. Probably it was common for the Western part of China, >whereas the better-living people in the east of China prefered the cultural >high-standing tortoise-ritual. The duke of Chou transformed it and gave it a >little more elegance. As the Chou were new kings after conquering the Shang >(and barbarians in the West), they naturally became in the course of time a >little "educated" by the cultural high-standing Shang of the West, with whom >they mixed. The Zhou were well informed of the Shang, and part of Shang society. King Wen was even married to a daughter of the Shang Emperor Di Yi, who was the Emperor prior to the conquered Di Xin. ### The kilometer-distance between the center of the early Chou and the center of the Shang were about 600 km. I think, not too much Chou did know too much about the Shang. And it seems to have been politic of the Shang to keep some cultural achievements as secrets, especially weapon production. Reminds me of something :-) ### >When the Duke of Chou transformed the older I-Ching, he didn't feel strong >enough to change the older and longer existing divination tradition totally. >So he took names and head-lines of older sources (which were not necessarily >worked out by his father, but might have been believed by his father, who >eventually had influenced his son to "believe" in the same way). However, in >the line-text he could develop a little more phantasy and creativity. This is not inconsistent with Wen devising the Names and Judgements. ## Of course. Wen as the author is still a possibility. ### >Although this - in the literary sense - is also a "poor" and primitive text >(unbelievable poor in the comparition to Homers Ilias and its possibilities >of expression, which is of a similar "early" time), it shows much "more" >content than this headline stuff. Perhaps this is comparing apples to oranges. I have enjoyed the Odyssey and the Iliad, though not in the Greek. These epic poems date to the 8th (perhaps 9th) centuries BC. The Chinese have their Book of Odes, though not of epic scale. I enjoy the Yi, not so much in the Story it tells of ancient China, but how it helps to tell the story around me today. ### I think, the invention of the alphabet did allow generally a better base for literature production than the Chinese system. The invention of the alphabet was the end of the great Egyptia, which was based on a rather stable writing system with hieroglyphes, in the West. The Chinese region generally had cause geographical reasons a better chance to build stable governments for a great country, far better than the European geographical conditions. Probably this gave historically better chances to invent new things and to stay always technically in a leading position. This effect was over, when Western culture used the alphabet-bonus together with the printing press - something, which the Chinese couldn't do, as their scripture-system was too complicated. ### >The success of the I-Ching didn't depend on its literary qualities, but on >the fact, that its inventors became historically rather successful men. The >Chou reigned 800 years about China, that's the I-Ching-success. >Nobody would know Romulus and Remus, when the Roman Empire would be missing >in history. >The Bible wouldn't be a bestseller without King David. >Without the victory of Marathon Homer would be unknown. >Without the Chou the I-Ching wouldn't exist anymore. Probably then there >would be another important book :-) > We are here and now, and there is a history before. Without the Zhou, would we be having a discussion on turtle-shell@apocalypse.org? This is the stuff of a Philip K. Dick novel. (perhaps in a parallel universe we are :-) ### O well, let's start to talök about turtles-divinations. Does anybody really know, how this was worked out :-) Lothar ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 19 Mar 2000 21:53:20 EST From: FKegan@aol.com Subject: HEX8: Re: Tortoise Shell Oracle Hi Lothar, I have only caught a part of this long discussion. The tortoise shell oracle was much like our computer techniques. A question was asked twice, once in the affirmative and once in the negative. A hole was put in the tortoise shell where the answer was to appear. The shell was heated in a fire until a crack appeared from the hole. The angle of the crack, whether virtually vertical or horizon was taken as a yes or no answer. A good oracle was one where you got a consistent result, yes to one of your questions and no to the other. There was an article in Scientific American, perhaps in the '80's about the archeological finds of these tortoise shells with their questions incised in them and their answers. The author notes that they disappear within a century of 1100 BC though he has no awareness of the Yi being dated to that time and thus a possible reason the tortoise shell oracle went out of favor so quickly and totally. The ancient Yi used the hexagrams as binary counters, the standard diagram has them ordered in two semicircles as though they were mapping out a sine wave. The current sequence is based upon number patterns similar to those of Pythagoras or western astrology. Unfortunately, there is a general 4 thousand year gap between development of a new technique (such as pottery, metal working, hexagrams) and its general secular use. If you mark the Yi and other occult metaphysics to 1100 BC we are only 900 years away from having similar techniques available in the West. The 4,000 years for general math was up in the late 18th to 19th century. Frank ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ End of hexagram-8-digest V1 #161 ******************************** From owner-hexagram-8-digest@apocalypse.org Mon Mar 20 08:14:11 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA31782 for hexagram-8-digest-outgoing; Mon, 20 Mar 2000 08:14:11 -0500 Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2000 08:14:11 -0500 Message-Id: <200003201314.IAA31782@apocalypse.org> X-Authentication-Warning: apocalypse.org: majordom set sender to owner-hexagram-8-digest@apocalypse.org using -f From: owner-hexagram-8-digest@apocalypse.org (hexagram-8-digest) To: hexagram-8-digest@apocalypse.org Subject: hexagram-8-digest V1 #162 Reply-To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Sender: owner-hexagram-8-digest@apocalypse.org Errors-To: owner-hexagram-8-digest@apocalypse.org Precedence: bulk hexagram-8-digest Monday, March 20 2000 Volume 01 : Number 162 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 19 Mar 2000 21:53:04 -0500 From: "Dr R. Butler" Subject: Re: HEX8: mandate of heaven = Yi ? Hi Jorge, > >In the Mawangdui ms, in the 'Properties of the change' wing (Shaughnessy, >page 231), the same sequence are presented in the SAME order, totally >unrelated to the Mawangdui's sequence. There is only one significant >difference that not modifies the basic order: H59 substitutes H57 as the >last hexagram of the sequence. > ... > >Any thougths regarding the substitution of H57 by H59? > A very interesting observation, which I had not noted. At this moment, I haven't a clue. Rhett ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 19 Mar 2000 22:51:21 -0500 From: "Dr R. Butler" Subject: Re: HEX8: mandate of heaven = Yi ? Hi Lothar, ... >>The real modesty of the Duke of Chou became obvious, when he gave the >>reignment back to the son of Wu. I agree. ... > This same terseness and obscurity is the most open for symbolic > interpretation. The Names and Judgements set the stage for the Lines. > Though it is difficult, try to imagine reading the Yi without its Names and > Judgements. What would be the context? > >### I think, that the mathematical construction (and its use in divination) >of the I-Ching is much older than King Wen and the Duke of chou. I could >imagine, the Duke of Chou wrote a new textbook (if there was one before him, >but perhaps this earlier oracle worked only with oral traditions or unwritten >notations), and perhaps he developed the most constructive idea, that >"change" is a change between hexagrams, so that in a oracle 2 hexagrams must >to be considered. Perhaps the result in the earlier oracle had only one >hexagram as answer. I have thought the same about the "change" between two Hexagrams. Clearly the construction of solid and broken lines, changing a line, and getting another Hexagram is a property of the Hexagrams. Yet the context of the change and devising the text for each line, such a work of art! ... > > We are here and now, and there is a history before. Without the Zhou, would > we be having a discussion on turtle-shell@apocalypse.org? This is the stuff > of a Philip K. Dick novel. (perhaps in a parallel universe we are :-) > >### O well, let's start to talök about turtles-divinations. Does anybody >really know, how this was worked out :-) > If you are interested in Turtle Shell divination, the definitive text is: Sources of Shang History: The Oracle-Bone Inscriptions of Bronze Age China by David N. Keightley University of California Press, 1978 ISBN 0-520-02969-0 In his book he has a rather humorous footnote on scapulimancy: "I have so far been unable to crack a scapula; presumably, I have not yet found the right hard wood or other heat source (or the requisite patience). I am not the only scholar who has had troubles of this sort. Takashima Kenichi describes an attempt to crack a fresh cow scapula in June 1969: Since we were "serving barbecued beef at the party and had plenty of charcoal, I used a small piece of it to apply to a hollow in the shell (which I made with an electric drill) .... Even after a few minutes, nothing happened. I thought then that a charcoal briquet didn't have enough heat; so I applied a red hot soldering iron ... again nothing happened except for it getting a bit scorched. I got rather disgusted "and so I just threw the damn thing in the whole mess of burning charcoal.... Divination was inauspicious.... In the meantime, while everyone was discussing why it wouldn't crack, the bone started to emit a stench. I was going to remove it from the fire and just before I could do so, the bone began to crack successively-Pak! Pak! Pak! It was terrific! Since we were also interested in the reconstruction of Archaic Chinese, we talked more about the sound it made: we had truly 'reconstructed' the Archaic Chinese [character for divination] *pak. ... Karlgren, for one, wasn't too far off... The lesson we then learned was that the prepared bones, and presumably shells, must, have been dried pretty well" (letter of 14 March I971). " Pak! Rhett ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2000 00:58:14 -0300 From: "Ely Britto" Subject: Re: HEX8: mandate of heaven = Yi ? >### Who or what are these damned (please excuse :-)) sages?.... (and all that disrespectfull post) If you are really interested in the answer for your question you should read more Lao Tzu. I think everybody in this list respect Chinese wisdom. Why are you here? No excuse for disrespecting a culture that is so important to all the members of this list. Be in peace! Ely If they were >really king-like persons like Wen, Wu, Duke of Chou etc. responsible for the >I-Ching, then they were successful politicans of their time with the ability >to manipulate the people in a certain direction, which was especially good >for the interests of their own. If you generally declare such people as >sages, I've to wonder. All, what we really know of them, is, that they were >historically successful in arranging a positive historical press, which makes >them look good and which made the latest Shang look bad. Which justified >their taking of the "mandate of heaven", which formerly belongs to the Shang. > >Those "sages", which came later and idealized the I-Ching to that what we >know of it, might well have been people, who caught the opportunity to >reassure, that the Chou-reignment is and was a good one, eventually cause ty >knew about a way, how to take profit of such statements. In German we do call >such people "opportunists", not sages. > >The fact, that there are 1000s of writings about the I-Ching in Chinese >doesn't say something about "being holy" or whatever. In Western literature >production we've also 1000s of old writings about Platonism, about >Aristotelism, about Stoicism, about astrology, about mathematics etc.. It >doesn't lead to our conclusion, that Platon or Aristoteles or anybody else >was holy or a sage, as we know, that Platon and Aristoteles had differences >in their opinions and that these sort of differences doesn't allow the >termini "holy" or "sages". They simply were humans with normal errors. > >What does give reason, that we do speak so easily and uncritical of old >chinese sages and holy men there? Let me tell you my speculation: It - >probably - simply was Richard Wilhelm, who took the chose to translate some >chinese terms with "holy" and "sages". As he had a deciding role in the >transmission of old Chinese texts into European languages, he was able to >build "our" view of old China in a decisive way, changing the normal bloody >reality of history in a romantic ideal. >Chinese emperors usually didn't behave "better" or "more worse" than their >European colleagues. Chinese scholars weren't in a moral sense probably not >better people as their western concurrents. ### > > 3) Zhu Xi (Chu Hsi, aprox. 1200 a.d. ), one of the biggest landmarks of > chinese philosophy, defended the use of the Yi as an oracle, finding in this > use a tool for human development. Obviously, there are two levels to use it: > the common people looking for an easy way to 'know the future' (whatever > that means) and people as you, I and the rest of the HEX8 group that were, > in a way or another, hooked by the book, the comentaries, the images and the > open meaning they carry, that push us to go deeper and deeper in it. > 4) Yes, there are many other divination technics, (here, in Brazil, is very > popular one called 'buzios', born in Africa, that uses small mollusk shells) > but none of them were so exaustively studied and commented as the Yi. This > is what makes the book different from the others. Yes, maybe the Tarot, for > example, works well, but depends of the reader, that have to be based only > in his/hers intuition and few other parameters. I have to clarify that I > think that randomness plays a key role in structuring the world as we see, > and live, it, so it's not a surprise that random technics can give us some > grasp of that world in which we found living. > >### There is actually more than one divination also technic in China. Well, >okay, it might be said, that eventually the I-Ching is the "greatest" >divination technic in history. In Western countries this "important" role in >classical time (especially Roman times) was taken probably by astrology in >general. Tarot is too young to be historically important, although it seems >to be in Western countries definitely more popular today. >Western esoterical arts look doesn't look so big, as "modern times" started >earlier in Europe than in China. Chinese konservatism formed this nowadays >leading role in divination technics, probably this is nothing what a Chinese >is rather proud of. ### > > 5) THERE IS an "order of the Universe", otherwise it would be a chaos > instead of a cosmos. (I agree that reading newspapers, sometimes I have to > doubt of my own opinion) > >#### Of course there is always one :-). But in reality it often looks a >little more complex than this nice binary code with 6 bits, that was used in >I-Ching and at a lot of other places all around the world :-) ''' > > 6) So, Lothar, I dont care much of King Wen, King Wu, the Duke of Chou, > etc., whether they existed or not or if their where powerful or not > (although is a nice story, as Ely pointed), but I think that I'm really > "objective" ;-) because I sit with the book in front of me, with some (very > few!) of its commentaries and some (very very few!) of the other books > written in the last 3000 years (in China, India, Europe, etc.) at hand, and > pushing my hair trying to grasp the meaning of the Yi, meaning making sense > to me and in this moment, living in Brazil in the last minutes of the XX > century. > > Uff!!! to much english for me >> > >### Have a nice time, and please excuse my unromantical approach :-) > >Lothar > > >===== >To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org >from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2000 01:01:32 -0300 From: "Ely Britto" Subject: Re: HEX8: mandate of heaven = Yi ? >### Who or what are these damned (please excuse :-)) sages?.... (and all that disrespectfull post) If you are really interested in the answer for your question you should read more Lao Tzu. Do you think that he is romantic? It seems to me that everybody in this list respect Chinese wisdom. Why are you here? No excuse for disrespecting a culture that is so important to all the members of this list. Be in peace! Ely If they were >really king-like persons like Wen, Wu, Duke of Chou etc. responsible for the >I-Ching, then they were successful politicans of their time with the ability >to manipulate the people in a certain direction, which was especially good >for the interests of their own. If you generally declare such people as >sages, I've to wonder. All, what we really know of them, is, that they were >historically successful in arranging a positive historical press, which makes >them look good and which made the latest Shang look bad. Which justified >their taking of the "mandate of heaven", which formerly belongs to the Shang. > >Those "sages", which came later and idealized the I-Ching to that what we >know of it, might well have been people, who caught the opportunity to >reassure, that the Chou-reignment is and was a good one, eventually cause ty >knew about a way, how to take profit of such statements. In German we do call >such people "opportunists", not sages. > >The fact, that there are 1000s of writings about the I-Ching in Chinese >doesn't say something about "being holy" or whatever. In Western literature >production we've also 1000s of old writings about Platonism, about >Aristotelism, about Stoicism, about astrology, about mathematics etc.. It >doesn't lead to our conclusion, that Platon or Aristoteles or anybody else >was holy or a sage, as we know, that Platon and Aristoteles had differences >in their opinions and that these sort of differences doesn't allow the >termini "holy" or "sages". They simply were humans with normal errors. > >What does give reason, that we do speak so easily and uncritical of old >chinese sages and holy men there? Let me tell you my speculation: It - >probably - simply was Richard Wilhelm, who took the chose to translate some >chinese terms with "holy" and "sages". As he had a deciding role in the >transmission of old Chinese texts into European languages, he was able to >build "our" view of old China in a decisive way, changing the normal bloody >reality of history in a romantic ideal. >Chinese emperors usually didn't behave "better" or "more worse" than their >European colleagues. Chinese scholars weren't in a moral sense probably not >better people as their western concurrents. ### > > 3) Zhu Xi (Chu Hsi, aprox. 1200 a.d. ), one of the biggest landmarks of > chinese philosophy, defended the use of the Yi as an oracle, finding in this > use a tool for human development. Obviously, there are two levels to use it: > the common people looking for an easy way to 'know the future' (whatever > that means) and people as you, I and the rest of the HEX8 group that were, > in a way or another, hooked by the book, the comentaries, the images and the > open meaning they carry, that push us to go deeper and deeper in it. > 4) Yes, there are many other divination technics, (here, in Brazil, is very > popular one called 'buzios', born in Africa, that uses small mollusk shells) > but none of them were so exaustively studied and commented as the Yi. This > is what makes the book different from the others. Yes, maybe the Tarot, for > example, works well, but depends of the reader, that have to be based only > in his/hers intuition and few other parameters. I have to clarify that I > think that randomness plays a key role in structuring the world as we see, > and live, it, so it's not a surprise that random technics can give us some > grasp of that world in which we found living. > >### There is actually more than one divination also technic in China. Well, >okay, it might be said, that eventually the I-Ching is the "greatest" >divination technic in history. In Western countries this "important" role in >classical time (especially Roman times) was taken probably by astrology in >general. Tarot is too young to be historically important, although it seems >to be in Western countries definitely more popular today. >Western esoterical arts look doesn't look so big, as "modern times" started >earlier in Europe than in China. Chinese konservatism formed this nowadays >leading role in divination technics, probably this is nothing what a Chinese >is rather proud of. ### > > 5) THERE IS an "order of the Universe", otherwise it would be a chaos > instead of a cosmos. (I agree that reading newspapers, sometimes I have to > doubt of my own opinion) > >#### Of course there is always one :-). But in reality it often looks a >little more complex than this nice binary code with 6 bits, that was used in >I-Ching and at a lot of other places all around the world :-) ''' > > 6) So, Lothar, I dont care much of King Wen, King Wu, the Duke of Chou, > etc., whether they existed or not or if their where powerful or not > (although is a nice story, as Ely pointed), but I think that I'm really > "objective" ;-) because I sit with the book in front of me, with some (very > few!) of its commentaries and some (very very few!) of the other books > written in the last 3000 years (in China, India, Europe, etc.) at hand, and > pushing my hair trying to grasp the meaning of the Yi, meaning making sense > to me and in this moment, living in Brazil in the last minutes of the XX > century. > > Uff!!! to much english for me >> > >### Have a nice time, and please excuse my unromantical approach :-) > >Lothar > > >===== >To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org >from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 19 Mar 2000 22:39:25 -0800 From: Ray Langley Subject: HEX8: Roasting Turtles, was: mandate of heaven = Yi ? > If you are interested in Turtle Shell divination, the definitive text is: > > Sources of Shang History: The Oracle-Bone Inscriptions of Bronze Age China > by David N. Keightley > University of California Press, 1978 > ISBN 0-520-02969-0 > > In his book he has a rather humorous footnote on scapulimancy: > > "I have so far been unable to crack a scapula; presumably, I have not yet > found the right hard wood or other heat source (or the requisite patience). > I am not the only scholar who has had troubles of this sort. Takashima > Kenichi describes an attempt to crack a fresh cow scapula in June 1969: > Since we were "serving barbecued beef at the party and had plenty of > charcoal, I used a small piece of it to apply to a hollow in the shell > (which I made with an electric drill) .... Even after a few minutes, > nothing happened. I thought then that a charcoal briquet didn't have enough > heat; so I applied a red hot soldering iron ... again nothing happened > except for it getting a bit scorched. I got rather disgusted "and so I just > threw the damn thing in the whole mess of burning charcoal.... Divination > was inauspicious.... In the meantime, while everyone was discussing why it > wouldn't crack, the bone started to emit a stench. I was going to remove it > from the fire and just before I could do so, the bone began to crack > successively-Pak! Pak! Pak! It was terrific! Since we were also interested > in the reconstruction of Archaic Chinese, we talked more about the sound it > made: we had truly 'reconstructed' the Archaic Chinese [character for > divination] *pak. ... Karlgren, for one, wasn't too far off... The lesson > we then learned was that the prepared bones, and presumably shells, must, > have been dried pretty well" (letter of 14 March I971). " > Pak! Rhett Hi Rhett. Good Stuff! May I have your permission to post this elsewhere? One key point: There *is* a key difference between a turtle and a tortoise! When a tortoise moves, his under shell (plastron) does not touch the earth. A turtle sort of skids his undershell along the surface of the earth. So, are we talking about tortoises or turtles here? I would be very disappointed to discover that after many years of roasting turtle shells in the campfire, that I should have been cooking tortoise shells all along.... During the month that I spent in China with non-English speaking hosts, the charcoal "deliveryman" would come by every day. The charcoal that he delivered was about 4 inches in diameter and it was very hard. Perhaps it produced a higher temperature than the charcoal in the example above? - -- Warmest Regards, Ray Have Luo Pan, Will Travel! ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2000 09:44:39 +0100 From: Kirk McElhearn Subject: Re: HEX8: Re: Tortoise Shell Oracle On 20/03/00 3:53, FKegan@aol.com FKegan@aol.com is reported to have said: >The author notes that they >disappear within a century of 1100 BC though he has no awareness of the Yi >being dated to that time and thus a possible reason the tortoise shell >oracle >went out of favor so quickly and totally. Cyrille Javary's book Understanding the I Ching has a very clear explanation of what happened and why the changes occured. In short, turtles died out, and turtle shells were quite cumbersome. The records that were saved, in huge libraries of turtle shells, were collated, and the I Ching began in this manner. Kirk vice | versa Translations from French to English, English to French Traductions francais-anglais, anglais-francais kirk@mcelhearn.com http://www.mcelhearn.com Kirk McElhearn | Chemin de la Lauze | 05600 Guillestre | France ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2000 07:03:36 EST From: Autorbis@aol.com Subject: Re: HEX8: mandate of heaven = Yi ? Hi Rhett > This same terseness and obscurity is the most open for symbolic > interpretation. The Names and Judgements set the stage for the Lines. > Though it is difficult, try to imagine reading the Yi without its Names and > Judgements. What would be the context? > >### I think, that the mathematical construction (and its use in divination) >of the I-Ching is much older than King Wen and the Duke of chou. I could >imagine, the Duke of Chou wrote a new textbook (if there was one before him, >but perhaps this earlier oracle worked only with oral traditions or unwritten >notations), and perhaps he developed the most constructive idea, that >"change" is a change between hexagrams, so that in a oracle 2 hexagrams must >to be considered. Perhaps the result in the earlier oracle had only one >hexagram as answer. I have thought the same about the "change" between two Hexagrams. Clearly the construction of solid and broken lines, changing a line, and getting another Hexagram is a property of the Hexagrams. Yet the context of the change and devising the text for each line, such a work of art! ... Well, in different cultures I saw a lot of 64's, that means a lot of people in earlier time used this units in a lot of different forms. A 64x64 table, as it comes into use in the Chinese divination system, is rare (I only know of one feature in the Jewish culture, but it is in its appearance not clear, if it really points to a 64x64 structure). So there must have been a development - somebody made a great step once. This might have been the Duke of Chou - but of course there a lot of other possibilities. > > We are here and now, and there is a history before. Without the Zhou, would > we be having a discussion on turtle-shell@apocalypse.org? This is the stuff > of a Philip K. Dick novel. (perhaps in a parallel universe we are :-) > >### O well, let's start to talök about turtles-divinations. Does anybody >really know, how this was worked out :-) > If you are interested in Turtle Shell divination, the definitive text is: Sources of Shang History: The Oracle-Bone Inscriptions of Bronze Age China by David N. Keightley University of California Press, 1978 ISBN 0-520-02969-0 ### Probably difficult to get in a library here. In his book he has a rather humorous footnote on scapulimancy: "I have so far been unable to crack a scapula; presumably, I have not yet found the right hard wood or other heat source (or the requisite patience). I am not the only scholar who has had troubles of this sort. Takashima Kenichi describes an attempt to crack a fresh cow scapula in June 1969: Since we were "serving barbecued beef at the party and had plenty of charcoal, I used a small piece of it to apply to a hollow in the shell (which I made with an electric drill) .... Even after a few minutes, nothing happened. I thought then that a charcoal briquet didn't have enough heat; so I applied a red hot soldering iron ... again nothing happened except for it getting a bit scorched. I got rather disgusted "and so I just threw the damn thing in the whole mess of burning charcoal.... Divination was inauspicious.... In the meantime, while everyone was discussing why it wouldn't crack, the bone started to emit a stench. I was going to remove it from the fire and just before I could do so, the bone began to crack successively-Pak! Pak! Pak! It was terrific! Since we were also interested in the reconstruction of Archaic Chinese, we talked more about the sound it made: we had truly 'reconstructed' the Archaic Chinese [character for divination] *pak. ... Karlgren, for one, wasn't too far off... The lesson we then learned was that the prepared bones, and presumably shells, must, have been dried pretty well" (letter of 14 March I971). " Pak! ### That's really good. I do understand now the Chinese love for fire-crackers. Pak, the turtle has spoken, happy new year! Lothar ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2000 07:03:31 EST From: Autorbis@aol.com Subject: Re: HEX8: Re: Tortoise Shell Oracle << Hi Lothar, I have only caught a part of this long discussion. The tortoise shell oracle was much like our computer techniques. A question was asked twice, once in the affirmative and once in the negative. A hole was put in the tortoise shell where the answer was to appear. The shell was heated in a fire until a crack appeared from the hole. The angle of the crack, whether virtually vertical or horizon was taken as a yes or no answer. A good oracle was one where you got a consistent result, yes to one of your questions and no to the other. There was an article in Scientific American, perhaps in the '80's about the archeological finds of these tortoise shells with their questions incised in them and their answers. The author notes that they disappear within a century of 1100 BC though he has no awareness of the Yi being dated to that time and thus a possible reason the tortoise shell oracle went out of favor so quickly and totally. >> Hi Frank, I've here a photo of one of these shells. First: It has no hole. Then it shows inscriptions, wich looks like this (CS means "unknown Chinese signs", CS(A) and CS(B) are signs, which appear twice; ------ means a longer drawn lines, showing the form |--- (left side) or - ----| (right side); "line" means short drawn line, probably used to express numbers). The X looks similar to an X, perhaps it is a sign for the end of a sentence. The following is meant as a picture of the shell: - ------------- -------------- a line a line ( = 1) ( = 1) - ------------- -------------- 2 lines CS CS(A) CS CS(B) 2 lines (= 2) (= 2) - ------------- CS CS -------------- 3 lines 3 lines (= 3) CS CS (= 3) CS - ------------- -------------- CS CS 4 lines CS 4 lines (= 4) (= 4) CS CS(A) - ------------- --------------- CS CS X X |--------------------------------| CS(B) CS CS (= eventually these both CS are only one CS) It definitely shows some sort of mathematical structure. The middle double column of signs might express a 2x6-structure. The 4 unclear signs at the left and right might express special commentaries. The bottom looks like a result. The 4 numbers right and left seems to have only a mathematical ordering function. The ancient Yi used the hexagrams as binary counters, the standard diagram has them ordered in two semicircles as though they were mapping out a sine wave. The current sequence is based upon number patterns similar to those of Pythagoras or western astrology. Unfortunately, there is a general 4 thousand year gap between development of a new technique (such as pottery, metal working, hexagrams) and its general secular use. If you mark the Yi and other occult metaphysics to 1100 BC we are only 900 years away from having similar techniques available in the West. The 4,000 years for general math was up in the late 18th to 19th century. Frank ### I've difficulties to understand your text. Where do you see a 4000 years gap between development of a new technic and its general secular use? Do you think, that Western people hadn't similar divination technics around 1100 BC? Lothar ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2000 07:03:19 EST From: Autorbis@aol.com Subject: Re: HEX8: mandate of heaven = Yi ? << >### Who or what are these damned (please excuse :-)) sages?.... (and all that disrespectfull post) If you are really interested in the answer for your question you should read more Lao Tzu. I think everybody in this list respect Chinese wisdom. Why are you here? No excuse for disrespecting a culture that is so important to all the members of this list. Be in peace! Ely >> Well, I could bet before your answer that a "damned sages" would raise your resonance, dear Ely :-) I'm here cause the I-Ching, I'm not here cause the inflated use of the termini "sages" and "holy" in Western language about old chinese contexts, which, as I expressed earlier, probably was developed cause the special love of Richard Wilhelm for these words. In most contexts, I think, these words might be exchanged by "scholar", or "ruler", or something else, depending on the context. These idealizations with "sages" and "holy" doesn't help to explore the real conditions of I-Ching-development, and I do wish any researcher a good part of disrespectfullness to overcome such nasty traps of half-religious preoccupations. Lothar ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2000 10:15:29 -0300 From: "Jorge" Subject: Re: HEX8: mandate of heaven = Yi ? Hi all Lothar Thank you for your love ;-)) Regarding seriousness, usually I'm not like this but it's increased for having to write in english where I cannot express myself very well :-( Talking about english, we are here in a multilingual enviroment, having to express in a different language than ours, with different levels of mastery. This leads itself to confusions like the one generated by the word 'sages'. Dictionary says: sage n. 1. One venerated for experience, judgment, and wisdom. --sage adj. sag·er, sag·est. 1. Having or exhibiting wisdom and calm judgment. 2. Proceeding from or marked by wisdom and calm judgment. 3. Archaic. Serious; solemn. --sage“ly adv. --sage“ness n. When I used the word I intended to say 'scholars having or exhibiting wisdom and calm judgment'. Flying high over those scholars we found the sages 'venerated for experience, judgment and wisdom' like Lao Tse, Confucious, Socrates, Buda, Jesus, human beings not belonging to one culture but to all mankind, in spite the fact that they didn't agree between themselves either, leaving us, poor mortals, without a Truth to confort us :-)) , or maybe ( Please, note that I hadn't use in any moment the word 'holy': I have real problems trying to grasp its meaning, considering that everything is impermanent, but this is another story ... Tchau Jorge Vulibrun Florianopolis, Brasil jorgevul@newsite.com.br - -----Mensagem original----- De: Autorbis@aol.com Para: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Data: Domingo, 19 de Março de 2000 22:39 Assunto: Re: HEX8: mandate of heaven = Yi ? > >Hi Jorge, I do love you and your serious approach to I-Ching :-), no matter, >that I do struggle hard for some sense of reality in this also loved field of >human exploration called I-Ching-research ;-) > >< Lothar, let me give you my personal opinion: > > 1) I agree with you that the Zhou Yi HAS "a poor text, written in an archaic > scripture, which had only poor ways to express something and has 3000 (+ - > 500) years", but > 2) the Yi Jing IS a "book of sages of old China" that accumulates the > experiences, opinions and efforts of thousands of sages that devoted their > time to study, use, value and teach the meanings that they were able to > grasp from that poor text and its mathematical background, not always being > able to agree between them in their findings. Quoting Shchutskii: "thus the > literature on the Book of Changes is an entire library of rather impressive > size. It is impossible to deal with it in every detail even in specialized > works, but it is also impossible to ignore this truly voluminous > literature". All this accumulated meaning is what we receive and should be > the basis for an objective view of the book; we cannot think as men of > Central China in the XII or X century b.c. so we never will be able to > understand the Zhou Yi. > >### Who or what are these damned (please excuse :-)) sages? If they were >really king-like persons like Wen, Wu, Duke of Chou etc. responsible for the >I-Ching, then they were successful politicans of their time with the ability >to manipulate the people in a certain direction, which was especially good >for the interests of their own. If you generally declare such people as >sages, I've to wonder. All, what we really know of them, is, that they were >historically successful in arranging a positive historical press, which makes >them look good and which made the latest Shang look bad. Which justified >their taking of the "mandate of heaven", which formerly belongs to the Shang. > >Those "sages", which came later and idealized the I-Ching to that what we >know of it, might well have been people, who caught the opportunity to >reassure, that the Chou-reignment is and was a good one, eventually cause ty >knew about a way, how to take profit of such statements. In German we do call >such people "opportunists", not sages. > >The fact, that there are 1000s of writings about the I-Ching in Chinese >doesn't say something about "being holy" or whatever. In Western literature >production we've also 1000s of old writings about Platonism, about >Aristotelism, about Stoicism, about astrology, about mathematics etc.. It >doesn't lead to our conclusion, that Platon or Aristoteles or anybody else >was holy or a sage, as we know, that Platon and Aristoteles had differences >in their opinions and that these sort of differences doesn't allow the >termini "holy" or "sages". They simply were humans with normal errors. > >What does give reason, that we do speak so easily and uncritical of old >chinese sages and holy men there? Let me tell you my speculation: It - >probably - simply was Richard Wilhelm, who took the chose to translate some >chinese terms with "holy" and "sages". As he had a deciding role in the >transmission of old Chinese texts into European languages, he was able to >build "our" view of old China in a decisive way, changing the normal bloody >reality of history in a romantic ideal. >Chinese emperors usually didn't behave "better" or "more worse" than their >European colleagues. Chinese scholars weren't in a moral sense probably not >better people as their western concurrents. ### > > 3) Zhu Xi (Chu Hsi, aprox. 1200 a.d. ), one of the biggest landmarks of > chinese philosophy, defended the use of the Yi as an oracle, finding in this > use a tool for human development. Obviously, there are two levels to use it: > the common people looking for an easy way to 'know the future' (whatever > that means) and people as you, I and the rest of the HEX8 group that were, > in a way or another, hooked by the book, the comentaries, the images and the > open meaning they carry, that push us to go deeper and deeper in it. > 4) Yes, there are many other divination technics, (here, in Brazil, is very > popular one called 'buzios', born in Africa, that uses small mollusk shells) > but none of them were so exaustively studied and commented as the Yi. This > is what makes the book different from the others. Yes, maybe the Tarot, for > example, works well, but depends of the reader, that have to be based only > in his/hers intuition and few other parameters. I have to clarify that I > think that randomness plays a key role in structuring the world as we see, > and live, it, so it's not a surprise that random technics can give us some > grasp of that world in which we found living. > >### There is actually more than one divination also technic in China. Well, >okay, it might be said, that eventually the I-Ching is the "greatest" >divination technic in history. In Western countries this "important" role in >classical time (especially Roman times) was taken probably by astrology in >general. Tarot is too young to be historically important, although it seems >to be in Western countries definitely more popular today. >Western esoterical arts look doesn't look so big, as "modern times" started >earlier in Europe than in China. Chinese konservatism formed this nowadays >leading role in divination technics, probably this is nothing what a Chinese >is rather proud of. ### > > 5) THERE IS an "order of the Universe", otherwise it would be a chaos > instead of a cosmos. (I agree that reading newspapers, sometimes I have to > doubt of my own opinion) > >#### Of course there is always one :-). But in reality it often looks a >little more complex than this nice binary code with 6 bits, that was used in >I-Ching and at a lot of other places all around the world :-) ''' > > 6) So, Lothar, I dont care much of King Wen, King Wu, the Duke of Chou, > etc., whether they existed or not or if their where powerful or not > (although is a nice story, as Ely pointed), but I think that I'm really > "objective" ;-) because I sit with the book in front of me, with some (very > few!) of its commentaries and some (very very few!) of the other books > written in the last 3000 years (in China, India, Europe, etc.) at hand, and > pushing my hair trying to grasp the meaning of the Yi, meaning making sense > to me and in this moment, living in Brazil in the last minutes of the XX > century. > > Uff!!! to much english for me >> > >### Have a nice time, and please excuse my unromantical approach :-) > >Lothar > > >===== >To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org >from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. > ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ End of hexagram-8-digest V1 #162 ******************************** From owner-hexagram-8-digest@apocalypse.org Tue Mar 21 03:54:34 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id DAA07379 for hexagram-8-digest-outgoing; Tue, 21 Mar 2000 03:54:34 -0500 Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 03:54:34 -0500 Message-Id: <200003210854.DAA07379@apocalypse.org> X-Authentication-Warning: apocalypse.org: majordom set sender to owner-hexagram-8-digest@apocalypse.org using -f From: owner-hexagram-8-digest@apocalypse.org (hexagram-8-digest) To: hexagram-8-digest@apocalypse.org Subject: hexagram-8-digest V1 #163 Reply-To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Sender: owner-hexagram-8-digest@apocalypse.org Errors-To: owner-hexagram-8-digest@apocalypse.org Precedence: bulk hexagram-8-digest Tuesday, March 21 2000 Volume 01 : Number 163 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2000 10:28:44 -0300 From: "Ely Britto" Subject: HEX8: Lothar its enough! - - > >Well, I could bet before your answer that a "damned sages" would raise your >resonance, dear Ely :-) I didn't knew that you would write something disrespectull just to raise our attention Lothar. You could do better by saying something *wise*, but you can't isn't? You are not here for the I Ching Lothar, and you know it, and we know it in silence, you are here just to vomit knowledge, dead and boring knowledge on the board. It's a pity!! Ely ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2000 15:48:14 +0100 From: Kirk McElhearn Subject: Re: HEX8: Re: Tortoise Shell Oracle On 20/03/00 13:03, Autorbis@aol.com Autorbis@aol.com is reported to have said: >It definitely shows some sort of mathematical structure. The middle double >column of signs might express a 2x6-structure. The 4 unclear signs at the >left and right might express special commentaries. The bottom looks like a >result. The 4 numbers right and left seems to have only a mathematical >ordering function. Note that not all the shells have the same number of holes. I have seen many of them, go to any museum that has ancient Chinese things to see them. There is no rule as to how many burnings were made on a given shell. Kirk vice | versa Translations from French to English, English to French Traductions francais-anglais, anglais-francais kirk@mcelhearn.com http://www.mcelhearn.com Kirk McElhearn | Chemin de la Lauze | 05600 Guillestre | France ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2000 12:10:36 -0300 From: "Ely Britto" Subject: Re: HEX8: mandate of heaven = Yi ? > If you are interested in Turtle Shell divination, the definitive text is: > > Sources of Shang History: The Oracle-Bone Inscriptions of Bronze Age China > by David N. Keightley > University of California Press, 1978 > ISBN 0-520-02969-0 > In his book he has a rather humorous footnote on scapulimancy: Hi Rhett! Another nice example of how Chinese Culture used simple procedure, which becomes a trouble to our rational modern way to understand life. This is well expressed in the Tao Te King XLI, were LaoTzu talks about the common man laughting about the Tao. I loved that humurous footnote. Thanks for yours nice words Ely were the chin > > "I have so far been unable to crack a scapula; presumably, I have not yet > found the right hard wood or other heat source (or the requisite patience). > I am not the only scholar who has had troubles of this sort. Takashima > Kenichi describes an attempt to crack a fresh cow scapula in June 1969: > Since we were "serving barbecued beef at the party and had plenty of > charcoal, I used a small piece of it to apply to a hollow in the shell > (which I made with an electric drill) .... Even after a few minutes, > nothing happened. I thought then that a charcoal briquet didn't have enough > heat; so I applied a red hot soldering iron ... again nothing happened > except for it getting a bit scorched. I got rather disgusted "and so I just > threw the damn thing in the whole mess of burning charcoal.... Divination > was inauspicious.... In the meantime, while everyone was discussing why it > wouldn't crack, the bone started to emit a stench. I was going to remove it > from the fire and just before I could do so, the bone began to crack > successively-Pak! Pak! Pak! It was terrific! Since we were also interested > in the reconstruction of Archaic Chinese, we talked more about the sound it > made: we had truly 'reconstructed' the Archaic Chinese [character for > divination] *pak. ... Karlgren, for one, wasn't too far off... The lesson > we then learned was that the prepared bones, and presumably shells, must, > have been dried pretty well" (letter of 14 March I971). " > > Pak! > >### That's really good. I do understand now the Chinese love for >fire-crackers. Pak, the turtle has spoken, happy new year! > >Lothar > > >===== >To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org >from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2000 12:04:26 -0600 From: "jayem" Subject: Re: HEX8: Lothar its enough! > >Well, I could bet before your answer that a "damned sages" would raise your > >resonance, dear Ely :-) > > I didn't knew that you would write something disrespectull just to raise our > attention Lothar. You could do better by saying something *wise*, but you > can't isn't? > > You are not here for the I Ching Lothar, and you know it, and we know it in > silence, you are here just > to vomit knowledge, dead and boring knowledge on the board. It's a pity!! > Ely Wow, someone said it out loud! Thanks, Ely. ~Jay~ ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2000 13:14:15 -0500 From: "Power, Marc (ETS - Equity Development Support)" Subject: RE: HEX8: A Chi Kung exercise Hi Monica, I have heard of something like this, are we talking about a stone/onyx/jade egg with a string attached, used somewhat intimately? Mantak Chia has some books about this. I will look up the names later if you would like. Cheers! Marc. > -----Original Message----- > From: omei shan [SMTP:omei@express-news.net] > Sent: Friday, March 17, 2000 10:45 PM > To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org > Subject: HEX8: A Chi Kung exercise > > I know it's not *exactly* the I Ching, but... > > Has anyone ever heard of a Chi Kung practice sometimes called "The Egg > Exercise?" > > > Monica > > > > ===== > To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org > from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2000 12:06:57 -0800 From: Ron Hale-Evans Subject: Re: HEX8: Lothar its enough! At 12:04 PM 3/20/00 -0600, you wrote: > > >Well, I could bet before your answer that a "damned sages" would raise >your > > >resonance, dear Ely :-) > > > > I didn't knew that you would write something disrespectull just to raise >our > > attention Lothar. You could do better by saying something *wise*, but you > > can't isn't? > > > > You are not here for the I Ching Lothar, and you know it, and we know it >in > > silence, you are here just > > to vomit knowledge, dead and boring knowledge on the board. It's a pity!! > > Ely > >Wow, someone said it out loud! Thanks, Ely. >~Jay~ Oooookayyy, let's stop this before it turns into a firefight. 1) I think maybe people are having some communications problems. I don't read Lothar as saying he was trying to get anyone's attention, let alone make anyone angry. You have to remember, Hex-8 is a very international list, and many list members do not have English as their native language. Lothar's native language is German and Ely's is Portuguese, right? My native language is English, and *I* had trouble understanding some of the posts in this thread. Think: did the other person really mean to hurt your feelings? Might it not be a language confusion, or simple misunderstanding? It's easy for misunderstandings to start flamewars even when everyone has the same native language! 2) But I do think Lothar's comments were a little inflammatory. So, Lothar, watch it! and keep in mind Point 3: 3) Anyone who is genuinely interested in the I Ching and can talk about it peacefully is welcome on Hex-8. That includes both I Ching scholars and I Ching users. This makes for an interesting left-brain/right-brain mix on the list. It has always been this way, and I am not going to kick anyone off just because they don't fit somebody else's stereotype of what an I Ching person should be. I *will* kick off anyone who repeatedly calls other members names or otherwise repeatedly engages in flaming. 3) If you don't like the mix of left-brain and right-brain on Hex-8, you are perfectly free to go elsewhere and start your own list that is either pure (dry) left-brain "scholars" or pure (soggy) right-brain "users". Me, I think they balance each other out here nicely, but don't let that stop you. 4) I expect better from you, Ely. Even if Lothar was trying to make you angry (which I don't think he was, but if so, shame on you, Lothar), I know you are a mature person who returns hatred with love. If you keep posting messages to others about how they "vomit knowledge, dead and boring knowledge", then I will have to remove you from Hex-8, and that would be a very, *very* sad day for me. Let's play nice. Ron - -- Ron Hale-Evans: rwhe@apocalypse.org ... Center for Ludic Synergy: Kennexions GBG artgame: Hexagram-8 I Ching Mailing List: Positive Revolution FAQ: ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2000 17:36:50 -0300 From: "Ely Britto" Subject: Re: HEX8: Lothar its enough! >4) I expect better from you, Ely. Dear Ron, I always admired the way you moderate this list. I think you need to understand better what is going on here. Lothar cannot hurt my feelings because I am mature enough to not take any harm on me, but he can certainly harm the high principles of the I Ching. I think you didn't really read his post. Please read it again. To call the ancient old people, opportunist, damned and stupid interested only in manipulating people is not to harm me but to harm a tradition, hexagram-8 and all the knowledge that brought us to your list, we are here in your list because we respect so much that tradition. If you keep posting >messages to others about how they "vomit knowledge, dead and boring >knowledge", then I will have to remove you from Hex-8, and that would be a >very, *very* sad day for me. You can do as you want Ron, I will be sad too. Sad for the old tradition not for me. But everytime someone will offend the principles and the old man who create them in your list, I will give to them what they asked for. So if you think it is necessary for the sake of the list, take me off. Lothar did the same thing years ago in the list of Richard Cook. The same aggressive thoughts, the same words, the same subject, and I just unsubscribed myself. But here no, I saw that list becoming the best place to share I ching knowledge. I will not let someone use it just to throw on us theirs prejudice against sages, wisdom using disrespectfull words toward chinese tradition. If you want your list to be like this, you can please take me offt. If you don't it, warn Lothar to stop saying irresponsible things about the old men who creates the I Ching. If he tries again I will say the truth again and again. I am sorry but this is not personal, its my own principles, the only thing that can make me forget my compassion. It has a limit. I always play nice in your list, for years now. You are free to do as you want. I still admire you Ely ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2000 13:32:51 -0800 From: Ron Hale-Evans Subject: Re: HEX8: Lothar its enough! At 05:36 PM 3/20/00 -0300, you wrote: > >4) I expect better from you, Ely. > >Dear Ron, >I always admired the way you moderate this list. Thank you, Ely. Sometimes I am too Confucian and then people get angry and leave. But I want it to be a safe place for everyone interested in the I Ching. >I think you need to understand better what is going on here. Lothar cannot >hurt my feelings because I am mature enough to not take any harm on me, but >he can certainly harm the high principles of the I Ching. I think you didn't >really read his post. Please read it again. To call the ancient old people, >opportunist, damned and stupid interested only in manipulating people is not >to harm me but to harm a tradition, hexagram-8 and all the knowledge that >brought us to your list, we are here in your list because we respect so >much that tradition. It is my opinion that the high principles of the I Ching are eternal. They cannot be harmed by Lothar or by anyone. The I Ching will outlive Lothar. It will outlive you and me too. Saying you can harm the high principles of the I Ching is like saying you can harm truth itself, or harm justice itself. People can lie, and they can do unjust things, but truth and justice shine forth in the end. So do the principles of the I Ching. By the way, calling something "damned" in English is only an expression. It doesn't mean Lothar thinks the sages are in Hell, or even that there is anything wrong with them. It can be just a humorous expression of annoyance, and that is how I read Lothar's use of it. He is annoyed that some people practically worship the I Ching -- and you have to admit, there are some people like that. Lothar did not call them opportunists, either. He said that we don't know much about the sages, and they *might* have been just opportunists with good publicity. A subtle distinction. I can't find anywhere that Lothar called them stupid, but I will be glad to read whatever you can show me where he does. My impression is that Lothar thinks they were clever and crafty, at least. >If you keep posting > >messages to others about how they "vomit knowledge, dead and boring > >knowledge", then I will have to remove you from Hex-8, and that would be a > >very, *very* sad day for me. > >You can do as you want Ron, I will be sad too. Sad for the old tradition ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Lothar might be able to harm the *tradition* of the I Ching, but not the principles. And even if he harmed the tradition, it is bigger than any individual and would probably heal quickly. Do you *really* think Lothar can harm either the principles or the tradition of the I Ching significantly? He's in the middle of a list with 100 people who probably mostly disagree with him! >Lothar did the same thing years ago in the list of Richard Cook. The same >aggressive thoughts, the same words, the same subject, and I just >unsubscribed myself. But here no, I saw that list becoming the best place to >share I ching knowledge. I will not let someone use it just to throw on us >theirs prejudice against sages, wisdom using disrespectfull words toward >chinese tradition. If you want your list to be like this, you can please >take me offt. If you don't it, warn Lothar to stop saying irresponsible >things about the old men who creates the I Ching. If he tries again I will >say the truth again and again. I am sorry but this is not personal, its my >own principles, the only thing that can make me forget my compassion. It has >a limit. Saying the truth does not have to mean insulting Lothar. It is possible to speak the truth respectfully. I hope you will. >I always play nice in your list, for years now. You are free to do as you >want. I know, Ely. You're consistently one of the nicest people on the list. You are a cornerstone. That's why it surprised me to hear you speak so rudely to Lothar. Lothar is another human being, with his own foibles, opinions, and feelings. He seems to be quite intellectual, and intellectual people are often not good at dealing with other people (I should know!). Perhaps he needs to grow up a little. I hope you will be more understanding of him, even while you debate him and refuse to take nonsense from him. It would be a bitter, bitter day if I had to unsubscribe you. Speak out against Lothar's views all you want, Ely, but *please* do not insult him or flame him. It is against the rules of the list. Please write me if you need to talk some more about this. Ron - -- Ron Hale-Evans: rwhe@apocalypse.org ... Center for Ludic Synergy: Kennexions GBG artgame: Hexagram-8 I Ching Mailing List: Positive Revolution FAQ: ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2000 13:58:36 -0800 (PST) From: diane haldane Subject: HEX8: #23 po-question from soggy one ron, i loved how you described the different types of folks interested in the i ching. i'm soggy myself most of the time, but am in- terested in the scholarly as well. recently, i keep getting "shock" and "splitting apart". i haven't done a huge number of readings, so it is interesting when some of the same ones keep cropping up, and it's synchronicities in the i ching and other parts of life that keeps me believing that there is some intelligence ( and wit!) at large in the universe that is less corporeal, shall we say. splitting apart is po, no. 23, which really makes me laugh, because i like po the tele- tubby, and the number 23 has been popping up in my life (locker #, basketball #,etc.) since long before i ever heard of the illuminati, but it's the splitting apart bit i don't quite get. the words don't seem to match the images, so i wonder if splitting apart is a translation snafu. anyone have any ideas? and on with the show.... thanks, diane ~~~~~~~~~~ > pure (dry) left-brain "scholars" or pure (soggy) right-brain "users". Me, I > think they balance each other out here nicely __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2000 15:00:48 -0800 From: Ron Hale-Evans Subject: HEX8: Oh, the humiliation! Aaargh! My last post was meant to be private to Ely. A dumb newbie mistake! Lothar, please accept my apologies for speaking of you in a somewhat negative way on the list. This was meant for Ely's eyes only. I am not ashamed of what I said, and I still mean every word, but perhaps I would have phrased a couple of things differently had this message been meant for public consumption. Oh, the humiliation! Oh, the humanity... Ron - -- Ron Hale-Evans: rwhe@apocalypse.org ... Center for Ludic Synergy: Kennexions GBG artgame: Hexagram-8 I Ching Mailing List: Positive Revolution FAQ: ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2000 22:01:35 EST From: Autorbis@aol.com Subject: Re: HEX8: Oh, the humiliation! << Aaargh! My last post was meant to be private to Ely. A dumb newbie mistake! Lothar, please accept my apologies for speaking of you in a somewhat negative way on the list. This was meant for Ely's eyes only. I am not ashamed of what I said, and I still mean every word, but perhaps I would have phrased a couple of things differently had this message been meant for public consumption. Oh, the humiliation! Oh, the humanity... Ron >> :-) Well Ron, no problem. I'm also not ashamed of what I said. And I also still mean mostly every word, that I say .... although occasionally some people seem to have difficulties to see the humour in it. So. If there is any sage in this group, I do excuse to him/her for the use of the term "damned sages". Actually I thought, that it was clear, in which way I wanted to be understood ("although I could bet", that Ely wouldn't miss the opportunity ...). I do criticise Ely for her emotional behaviour - generally and not since yesterday. I think, it is my right to have this opinion. I do not criticise Ely, that she thinks different about this point. I do think, that's her right to do so. Especially I do criticise her for importing viewing points, that she got in another email-list. I do citate: "Lothar did the same thing years ago in the list of Richard Cook. The sameaggressive thoughts, the same words, the same subject, and I just unsubscribed myself." This sentence is definitely a wrong description of the earlier situation. I can't remember any "same words" and any "same object". As I don't know, what Ely sees as agressive thoughts, I'm unsecure about the 3rd part of this sentence. I'm not aggressive about this point. I do think, it is the wrong style and I do critizise it, especially as people probably doesn't have any opportunity to reread that, what really happened at Richard's group. I see it as an another example of "emotional behaviour" and do critizise it as this. This doesn't mean, that I do expect any consequences or judgment from somebody else, especially Ron. I can defend myself. And Ely and me - we're just people with different perceptions. :-) I can see the humorous part of the situation. I always hope, that other people can do the same. Whow! Ely, hard stuff! If you had asked me, what I do prefer, Knowledge or I-Ching , then I would've answered, "if both things are really contraries to each other, I would prefer knowledge". Even in the case, that I have to vomit it. The I-Ching is only a book. And about knowledge ... perhaps we both have a different understanding of this term. All the Best Lothar ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2000 23:47:32 -0500 From: "Dr R. Butler" Subject: Re: HEX8: Roasting Turtles, was: mandate of heaven = Yi ? Hi Ray, >> If you are interested in Turtle Shell divination, the definitive text is: >> >> Sources of Shang History: The Oracle-Bone Inscriptions of Bronze Age China >> by David N. Keightley >> University of California Press, 1978 >> ISBN 0-520-02969-0 >> >> In his book he has a rather humorous footnote on scapulimancy: >> >> "I have so far been unable to crack a scapula; presumably, I have not yet ... >> Pak! Rhett > >Hi Rhett. Good Stuff! May I have your permission to post this elsewhere? Sure! Enjoy! It's footnote 93 on page 21 of Keightley's book. > >One key point: There *is* a key difference between a turtle and a >tortoise! When a tortoise moves, his under shell (plastron) does not >touch the earth. A turtle sort of skids his undershell along the surface >of the earth. So, are we talking about tortoises or turtles here? > According to Keightley, there were plastrons from three species of aquatic, freshwater turtles as well as a field tortoise. The Shang also used scapula of cattle and water buffalo. Keightley states, "For the historical period as a whole, turtle plastrons and bovid scapulas were probably used by Shang diviners in about equal numbers, though their relative popularity may have varied with time. ... The fact that the diviners of the Royal Family group showed a preference for shell suggests that they may have valued plastrons and carapaces more than scapulas as a divination medium. But, generally speaking, no evident principle governed the use of bone or shell, the choice of which appears to have been unrelated to the matter being divined." All the best, Rhett ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2000 23:48:49 -0500 From: "Dr R. Butler" Subject: Re: HEX8: #23 po-question from soggy one Hi Diane, ... >splitting apart is po, no. 23, which really >makes me laugh, because i like po the tele- >tubby, and the number 23 has been popping up >in my life (locker #, basketball #,etc.) since long before i ever heard of >the illuminati, but >it's the splitting apart >bit i don't quite get. the words don't seem >to match the images, so i wonder if splitting >apart is a translation snafu. anyone have >any ideas? >and on with the show.... >thanks, diane >~~~~~~~~~~ The Chinese character name for Hexagram 23 is a picture of a knife stripping bark from a tree stump or a stick. I often think of it as "Whittling". Another personal image I have is from gift wrapping. Using scissors, my wife strips lengths of paper ribbons from left-over wrapping paper to make matching bows and decorations -- an image for me of the favorable upper lines. All the best, Rhett ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2000 21:07:18 -0800 (PST) From: Stephen Field Subject: Re: HEX8: #23 po-question from soggy one Hi Soggy Diane, You may be sorry you asked this, but Hexagram 23, pronounced BO (level tone) in Mandarin, means "to flay" or "to strip" as in "to skin." Rick Kunst believes what is being flayed is a sacrificial lamb ("starting with the legs," "starting with the knees"); a Chinese scholar named Deng Qiubo--translater of the silk ms. Zhouyi, believes it is slaves that are being skinned ("skin them to their feet," "skin them to their knees"). Hope this doesn't adversely affect your appreciation of the Yi. Best wishes, Dry Stephen - --- diane haldane wrote: > > > ron, i loved how you described the different > types of folks interested in the i ching. > i'm soggy myself most of the time, but am in- > terested in the scholarly as well. > recently, i keep getting "shock" and "splitting > apart". i haven't done a huge > number of readings, so it is interesting when > some of the same ones keep cropping up, and > it's synchronicities in the i ching and other > parts of life that keeps me believing that > there is some intelligence ( and wit!) at large in > the universe that is less corporeal, shall we > say. > splitting apart is po, no. 23, which really > makes me laugh, because i like po the tele- > tubby, and the number 23 has been popping up > in my life (locker #, basketball #,etc.) since long > before i ever heard of the illuminati, but > it's the splitting apart > bit i don't quite get. the words don't seem > to match the images, so i wonder if splitting > apart is a translation snafu. anyone have > any ideas? > and on with the show.... > thanks, diane > ~~~~~~~~~~ > > pure (dry) left-brain "scholars" or pure (soggy) > right-brain "users". Me, I > > think they balance each other out here nicely > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. > http://im.yahoo.com > > > ===== > To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to > majordomo@apocalypse.org > from the address subscribed, containing just the > word UNSUBSCRIBE. > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 02:19:18 EST From: FKegan@aol.com Subject: HEX8: Re: 4k years Hi Lothar, The 4,000 year gap was an insight of my Prof. of history of technology. 4,000 years after the first Venus figures comes the first common pottery. Metal working was 4k old before there are common metal knives (carefully worked to appear like flint ones), etc. The idea is that a similar 4k years would take place before the insights of I Ching (and its Western equivalents like horoscopes would show up in secular universities as common science). Most Western metaphysics gets connected to the global insights of the 6th century BC and now there is a general controversy over what if anything was going on in the West in 1100 BC now that both Egyptian and Bible sources claiming such age are now in doubt and the Greeks never claimed to be very advanced at that time. In any event, the 4k gap between the century or so when a technique is developed and its technical use worked out pretty well and when folks rediscover it and come to use it in common society puts a somewhat different cast to the notion of worrying about when something was originated. I am coming more and more to the view that solar celestial mechanics, the resulting water cycle and geographic patterns, the geometry of the figures inscribed in circles and used as symbolic representations of anything cyclic are actually accessible to all peoples are all times and the various techniques and insights are actually just the same set of universal understanding being put into new languages and used by new sets of whiz kids who are more taken with their own "new stuff" than in realizing it is the same realizations their great-grandfathers had in every other place on this globe. The I Ching remains a great work, its elegance and craftsmanship a great wonder, but I find being able to correlate it to other systems displays even more richness. There is always a problem with focusing first and foremost on some text or some historical detail -- they are always just fragments viewed totally out of context and without full understanding. What clinches it for me is the difference I feel when reading an abstruse I Ching commentary in light of its fundamental geometry and number pattern. All of a sudden, it becomes a very simple and straightforward description phrased in the poetic language of local metaphor and all the arcane abstruseness dissolves. Frank ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 02:19:21 EST From: FKegan@aol.com Subject: HEX8: Re: I Ching as tortoise shell archives Hi Kirk, It is a pity that turtles died out in China in 1100 BC and most fortunate that they have since returned. And most fortunate that when the turtle shells became too rare and cumbersome that the I Ching developed to take their place. The basic form of the tortoise shell oracle from the historical research I saw was that it involved a pair of mutually exclusive questions which would prove useful only if one came back yes and the other no. I doubt a million years of such an archive would give the slightest impetus toward development of the I Ching. It would be like saying that as forests are being exhausted and computer paper is getting hard to come by in ream quantities computer simulations are about to be archived and will give rise to horoscopes. Such comments on tortoise shells I am sure exist in the academic records, trying to take the known history and give a simple explanation for it. It is like the explanation that Agincourt was won by English knights on foot rather than admit that mere archers could have won such a victory over aristocratic knights. I would like very much to see how one gets from the archived text of a tortoise shell oracle to a hexagram let alone the I Ching. Does your authoritative text have such a diagram or explanation? Frank ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 09:55:07 +0100 From: Kirk McElhearn Subject: Re: HEX8: Re: I Ching as tortoise shell archives On 21/03/00 8:19, FKegan@aol.com FKegan@aol.com is reported to have said: > I would like very much to see how one gets from the archived text of a >tortoise shell oracle to a hexagram let alone the I Ching. Does your >authoritative text have such a diagram or explanation? Well, you could buy the book... http://www.mcelhearn.com/yijing.html But, in any case, here is an excerpt from it, dealing with the question at hand. The Development of the Text (the first part of the Zhou Dynasty 12th to 8th century BCE) Writing enlarged the use of divination so much that the diviners found themselves confronted with an unexpected situation: the near-extinction of fresh water tortoises in Northern China. Since going back to using bones, as before, was inconceivable, they had to find another procedure. For formal divinations, they would continue burning tortoise shells. But for ³everyday² divinations, they thought of using the supply of tortoise shells that they already had in their archives, which was becoming overwhelming. Theoretically, this would not be a problem, since their divinatory practice had already developed the conception of a global cyclic rhythm of different moments, favorable and unfavorable. It was therefore logical to assume that for each present situation, there should be, somewhere in the archives, at least one tortoise shell with the same type of cracks that would appear if a burning was done for that situation. The important thing was to find out which one. In other words, how could they make a one-to-one correspondence from an open set of questions to a closed set of answers? The response that the Chinese developed was elegant. They would use chance, and tame it with mathematics. >From a practical point of view, this just meant taking a walk in the country to pick 49 straight stalks of a plant used for healing wounds, that is found along any path: the yarrow. Then, the operation is as follows: all of the stalks are held in one hand, and with the thumb, the bunch of stalks is split in two by chance. This action is important, because it is an analogy for the fire-brand cracking the tortoise shell. Next, the two groups of stalks are counted, using a special procedure, and the remainder is put aside. This operation is done two more times, and results in a final remainder which can only be one of a certain number of mathematically possible values. The origin of this method goes back to the shamans, those mediators of heaven and earth, whose rituals were born in Siberian prehistory. The story of their role in ancient Chinese history has not yet been written, and the Classical Chinese, always too proud of themselves, continually repudiated their importance, with the greatest of ingratitude. The person that the School of diviners have attributed this invention to - - and here, it is an invention - was a real person. His name, Wu Xian - which means: the influential (xian) shaman (wu) - has been found on a number of tortoise shells used for divination. But he has been totally overlooked by the legend of the Yi Jing. However, the core text of the ³Book of Changes² retains the memory of his influence. The 31st hexagram (Xian, Inciting) carries his name, and it is precisely this hexagram that opens the second part of the Yi Jing, just after the first part has been ended by hexagram no. 30, Overcoming bedazzlement, (also referred to as Fire), whose importance to divination we have already seen. But Wu Xian really started a new era in the history of the Yi Jing. Not only are the principles he developed still used today when one ³casts² the Yi Jing with yarrow stalks (see box p. XX), but by using numbers as symbols of classification, he insured the link with one of Fu Xi¹s inventions that had not yet been clarified, the use of knotted cords. To understand this, we need to go back in time a bit. The Shang diviners were very meticulous. Not only did they split their questions into two parts (do this?/not do this?), but especially, for each part of the question, they would repeat the burning operation a number of times. These series of burnings were usually repeated six times. This is probably one of the reasons that hexagrams are made up of six lines. They also had another habit which was to differentiate the types of cracks obtained by using symbolic numbers. This habit would turn out to have important consequences, because it would allow the development of a correlation between the burning of tortoise shells and the counting of yarrow stalks. In this method, the successive subtractions carried out after the chance splitting of the stalks are designed to end up with a series of six standard numbers which are used to determine the hexagram that answers the question. In the past, the method was the same, the difference being that when the numbers were found they did not lead to a hexagram, but rather to a tortoise shell, whose burning had led to the same order of numbers. All that was necessary was to find the tortoise shell, take it from the shelf where it was stored, read the mantic texts that were engraved on it, and put it back in its place. This procedure was rigorous, analogically rational, and tedious. For the pragmatic thinkers that were the Chinese, it was not long before they had the idea of copying the information from the tortoise shells onto a more user-friendly medium. To do this, they wrote on strips of bamboo that were tied together with bands of leather or silk. What may seem to us a simple change of medium was actually the key to a total change in perspective. The diviners, now become scribes, were not satisfied with just identically copying the myriad divinatory commentaries that they had at their disposal. They slowly itemized, organized, combined, and arranged all of this empirical data into a system. This type of approach, which for us is the perfect example of a scientific approach, is an exercise that the Chinese enjoy, and that they are indeed proficient in. Using the same method and the same patience, they organized the open set of symptoms onto the closed set of points on the surface of the human body, and gave a structure to acupuncture, which, much later, naturally used the figures and vocabulary of the Yi Jing to expose its theory. But the diviner-scribes did not know this yet. For the moment, and for the next few centuries to come, they were busy grouping similar sentences, putting others end to end, and also, sometimes, adding certain new phrases that were called for by the logic that was slowly becoming apparent in the compilation that they were creating. But this time, it was the bona fide Yi Jing that was being born, because in addition to the text, copied from tortoise shells, the use of yarrow stalks brought with them the theoretical underpinning that had been missing until then: the idea of change. Since using the yarrow stalks made divination an operation that cost nothing, the diviners would develop the habit of obtaining not one, but two series of numbers for each question. Then, comparing the two, they would notice what varied from one to the other. This allowed them to draw more precise conclusions about the evolution of the flow of things. As before, they were still concerned with the quality of the moment, but now they were examining its evolution, which allowed much more precise answers. Later, thanks to a specific reflection on the symbolic numbers themselves, they would be able to determine the sequence of evolution directly from the series of numbers cast (see chapter 3). Kirk vice | versa Translations from French to English, English to French Traductions francais-anglais, anglais-francais kirk@mcelhearn.com http://www.mcelhearn.com Kirk McElhearn | Chemin de la Lauze | 05600 Guillestre | France ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ End of hexagram-8-digest V1 #163 ******************************** From owner-hexagram-8-digest@apocalypse.org Wed Mar 22 02:10:06 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id CAA20507 for hexagram-8-digest-outgoing; Wed, 22 Mar 2000 02:10:06 -0500 Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 02:10:06 -0500 Message-Id: <200003220710.CAA20507@apocalypse.org> X-Authentication-Warning: apocalypse.org: majordom set sender to owner-hexagram-8-digest@apocalypse.org using -f From: owner-hexagram-8-digest@apocalypse.org (hexagram-8-digest) To: hexagram-8-digest@apocalypse.org Subject: hexagram-8-digest V1 #164 Reply-To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Sender: owner-hexagram-8-digest@apocalypse.org Errors-To: owner-hexagram-8-digest@apocalypse.org Precedence: bulk hexagram-8-digest Wednesday, March 22 2000 Volume 01 : Number 164 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 08:14:02 -0300 From: "Ely Britto" Subject: Re: HEX8: Oh, the humiliation! Ron, and all I apologise for all this. Ron I thought I was talking to you in private also. But no shame to speak openly to old friends. We are a family aren't we? All this want to teach us something. Let's learn. I am sorry Ely ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 07:22:00 EST From: Autorbis@aol.com Subject: Re: HEX8: Re: 4k years Hi Frank << Hi Lothar, The 4,000 year gap was an insight of my Prof. of history of technology. 4,000 years after the first Venus figures comes the first common pottery. Metal working was 4k old before there are common metal knives (carefully worked to appear like flint ones), etc. The idea is that a similar 4k years would take place before the insights of I Ching (and its Western equivalents like horoscopes would show up in secular universities as common science). Most Western metaphysics gets connected to the global insights of the 6th century BC and now there is a general controversy over what if anything was going on in the West in 1100 BC now that both Egyptian and Bible sources claiming such age are now in doubt and the Greeks never claimed to be very advanced at that time. In any event, the 4k gap between the century or so when a technique is developed and its technical use worked out pretty well and when folks rediscover it and come to use it in common society puts a somewhat different cast to the notion of worrying about when something was originated. I am coming more and more to the view that solar celestial mechanics, the resulting water cycle and geographic patterns, the geometry of the figures inscribed in circles and used as symbolic representations of anything cyclic are actually accessible to all peoples are all times and the various techniques and insights are actually just the same set of universal understanding being put into new languages and used by new sets of whiz kids who are more taken with their own "new stuff" than in realizing it is the same realizations their great-grandfathers had in every other place on this globe. The I Ching remains a great work, its elegance and craftsmanship a great wonder, but I find being able to correlate it to other systems displays even more richness. There is always a problem with focusing first and foremost on some text or some historical detail -- they are always just fragments viewed totally out of context and without full understanding. What clinches it for me is the difference I feel when reading an abstruse I Ching commentary in light of its fundamental geometry and number pattern. All of a sudden, it becomes a very simple and straightforward description phrased in the poetic language of local metaphor and all the arcane abstruseness dissolves. Frank >> Well, I still have my doubts, if I do really understand now this 4000-years-gap-theory. I can understand the idea, but I've difficulties to see the 4000 years. The last passage of your text is clear, I do feel in the same way (....."All of a sudden, it becomes a very simple and straightforward description phrased in the poetic language of local metaphor and all the arcane abstruseness dissolves"). The sentence "The I Ching remains a great work, its elegance and craftsmanship a great wonder, but I find being able to correlate it to other systems displays even more richness" raises my curiosity, as it is my own personal speciality to link the I-Ching to the systems of other cultures. Did you do any studies about correlations between I-Ching and other systems? Lothar ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 07:21:49 EST From: Autorbis@aol.com Subject: Re: HEX8: Re: I Ching as tortoise shell archives << Well, you could buy the book... http://www.mcelhearn.com/yijing.html But, in any case, here is an excerpt from it, dealing with the question at hand. The Development of the Text (the first part of the Zhou Dynasty 12th to 8th century BCE) Writing enlarged the use of divination so much that the diviners found themselves confronted with an unexpected situation: >> Kirk, a very interesting article. Can you tell a little more about this book? Lothar ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 17:37:08 +0100 From: Kirk McElhearn Subject: Re: HEX8: Re: I Ching as tortoise shell archives On 21/03/00 13:21, Autorbis@aol.com Autorbis@aol.com is reported to have said: >Can you tell a little more about this book? The best is to check my web site and read the intro. It is a very interesting book, and, given its low cost, should be read by all users of the I Ching. Kirk vice | versa Translations from French to English, English to French Traductions francais-anglais, anglais-francais kirk@mcelhearn.com http://www.mcelhearn.com Kirk McElhearn | Chemin de la Lauze | 05600 Guillestre | France ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 13:01:42 EST From: FKegan@aol.com Subject: HEX8: I Ching, Pythagorean Computer and Astrology Hi Lothar, I have only my own work correlating I Ching to astrology and to the Pythagorean Computer (common dice). For a while my text linking the Sabian Symbols in Astrology of Marc Jones with the lines of the 60 hexagrams within the first and last pairs (1,2,63,64) was published on the web. Aries Press of America has the two books, Stars and Dice (explaining the elements of astrology from dice dot-pattens) and Intro to the X-ray Eye (combining astrology with I Ching Hexagram structure). The two general correlations I use are as follows: The zodiac and the 4 angles of astrology correlate to the first and last two hexagrams for the angles, and the remaining 60 hexagrams of 6 lines to the 360 degrees of the zodiac starting with 1 Aries to the first line of hexagram 48 and the first line of hexagram 3 to 1 degree Cancer. That is a continuous circle from hexagram 3 to hexagram 62 which begins at the bottom of the page since hexagrams grow from the earth, while the circle of the zodiac begins at the left side since astrology is measured from what appears upon the Eastern horizon. The general sequence of the I Ching follows the Pythagorean number patterns. Chinese number is either very primitive or else philosophically sophisticated modular arithmetic based upon Pythagorean (or universal equivalent) sets of 10 derived from the formula 10= 1+2+3+4 or the complete set is composed of the monad, the dichotomy, the beginning-middle-end of process and the double dichotomy. This then explains the commentary mentioned in Wilhelm/Baynes and else where of the I Ching being organized in two halves, the first half being 30 hexagrams arranged in sets of 10 relating to Earth, Man, Heaven and each of the sets of 10 in the whole Yi being keynoted by the hexagrams which end in 1 (there is a bit of mention in hexagrams 11, 31, 41 the others have patterns of the 6 lines which are commented upon 21 the stick in the open mouth, 51 thunder repeated, 61 the hollow core within). What I like most about this Pythagorean or number pattern perspective is its ability to explain itself in terms of the first 10 hexagrams whose meanings can be taken quite literally (at least in one sense for this purpose) from the associations with the trigrams. Thus, hexagram one is Sunshine. Weiger,SJ in his Chinese Characters gives the meaning of the Ch'ien ideogram as sunshine evaporating the fog of a miasmal swamp to produce clouds to nourish the fields. Thus the monad of this first set is the Water Cycle as it exists most concretely upon this Planet Earth. Hexagrams 2 and 3 then represent the dichotomy of the water cycle. One polar opposite the open Earth itself, the other the awakening energy of the spring storms of thunder and rain (In Chinese thought thunder arises from the earth rather than lightning striking down from static electricity in clouds) Hexagrams 4,5.6 are the process of the water cycle. Water under the mountain is the pressure of the artesian springs, that is rain falling upon the mountains produce the potential gradient which powers the water cycle upon the earth. The clouds or water in heaven or over the sunshine falling upon the earth express the middle of the process of the water cycle -- the potential of gravity and geography brought to the point of clouds over the land about to rain. Then the end of the process of the water cycle is when the fundamental potential and the position of clouds in place comes together in terms of rain falling from the sky. At that point the water cycle potential has become actual and the rest is inevitable geography. Hexagrams 7.8, 9,10 express that action of the water cycle. Hexagram 7 and 8 give the yang and then yin of water upon the earth. In 7 water is within the earth and the flow of water is controlled by the earth's absorption of the rain, only what is let go by the earth is available to flow on to rivers and the sea. 8 is the yin or background to this, the water upon the earth in streams and rivers flowing along the contours of the geography. Hexagrams 9 and 10 are again the yang and yin of the final results of the water cycle. Nine: the winds over the sunshine or the pressure gradients or high and low pressure fronts that produce the winds and determine where there is rain and the like which are the focus of the water cycle as an overall process of the interaction of sunshine and Earth geography. 10 is the simple yin of the final results, the lake under sunshine, the water now at rest in the sea being gently evaporated by sunshine to start the process all over again. That is at least the beginning outlines of the correspondences which I come more and more to believe are actually the universal insight at the core of all the metaphysical systems of our Planet throughout time. Frank ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 13:21:17 EST From: FKegan@aol.com Subject: Re: HEX8: Re: I Ching as tortoise shell archives Hi Kirk, I thank you for the excerpt, in fact a bit more than I can manage the attention to read. It does, as I expected, run from what is known today of the history of first tortoise shell oracles and then I Ching hexagrams and try from modern notions to imagine a transition. Such academic exercises ignores too many of the fundamental realities. If the Chinese really felt they were running low on turtles, they had the ability to promote the breeding of more. Their abilities were not limited to just following meekly what was naturally available to hunter-gatherers. Also, many of the shell oracles recorded had to do with would it rain or not from the archeologists' findings, wouldn't it have been easier to just find a new way to ask that question and keep the turtle shells for more philosophical inquiries. And of course, the biggest of all. As even your excerpt notes, the tortoise shell oracle was organized in terms of pairs of questions, p and not-p. This is the simple logical dichotomy of European interpretations of Aristotle. How does one get from that primitive philosophy to the elegant cyclic geometry-symbolism of the I Ching? As I noted it would be like having physicists figure out that the horoscope maps timing and thus is far more sophisticated than their best time-space continuum which still only notes time and place and cannot do anything with timing. It is not "chance" involved in either shell oracles or I Ching, that is a Westerner's way of saying they invoke non-Christian gods and spirits which are not believed in Europe. It is not a small matter to get from the pair of p ¬-p questions to the 6 stages of a hexagram. It is the difference between linear thinking in words and cyclic patterns of symbolism. The notion that it was just a shortage of turtles and a laziness to handle the cumbersome materials could only be imagined in modern western academic perspectives. It makes for cute burlesque amongst those dedicated to the study of I Ching, but to consider that serious philosophy is really not an option and of course at core it is impolite in its misunderstanding of the ancient Chinese. Frank ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 13:39:13 -0500 From: "Power, Marc (ETS - Equity Development Support)" Subject: RE: HEX8: I Ching, Pythagorean Computer and Astrology Is there a general correspondance with the zodiac degree symbolism in Alan Leo's work others? Aleister Crowley tried to get a trigram synthesis out of the Yi also, I think I may have a copy somewhere. Do you have a correspondance between the five element system of the Yi and the 4 element system of western astrology? Cheers!, Marc. P.S. Do you have a copy of your paper? tx. > -----Original Message----- > From: FKegan@aol.com [SMTP:FKegan@aol.com] > Sent: Tuesday, March 21, 2000 1:02 PM > To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org > Subject: HEX8: I Ching, Pythagorean Computer and Astrology > > Hi Lothar, > I have only my own work correlating I Ching to astrology and to the > Pythagorean Computer (common dice). For a while my text linking the > Sabian > Symbols in Astrology of Marc Jones with the lines of the 60 hexagrams > within > the first and last pairs (1,2,63,64) was published on the web. Aries Press > of > America has the two books, Stars and Dice (explaining the elements of > astrology from dice dot-pattens) and Intro to the X-ray Eye (combining > astrology with I Ching Hexagram structure). > The two general correlations I use are as follows: The zodiac and > the > 4 angles of astrology correlate to the first and last two hexagrams for > the > angles, and the remaining 60 hexagrams of 6 lines to the 360 degrees of > the > zodiac starting with 1 Aries to the first line of hexagram 48 and the > first > line of hexagram 3 to 1 degree Cancer. That is a continuous circle from > hexagram 3 to hexagram 62 which begins at the bottom of the page since > hexagrams grow from the earth, while the circle of the zodiac begins at > the > left side since astrology is measured from what appears upon the Eastern > horizon. > The general sequence of the I Ching follows the Pythagorean number > patterns. Chinese number is either very primitive or else philosophically > sophisticated modular arithmetic based upon Pythagorean (or universal > equivalent) sets of 10 derived from the formula 10= 1+2+3+4 or the > complete > set is composed of the monad, the dichotomy, the beginning-middle-end of > process and the double dichotomy. This then explains the commentary > mentioned in Wilhelm/Baynes and else where of the I Ching being organized > in > two halves, the first half being 30 hexagrams arranged in sets of 10 > relating > to Earth, Man, Heaven and each of the sets of 10 in the whole Yi being > keynoted by the hexagrams which end in 1 (there is a bit of mention in > hexagrams 11, 31, 41 the others have patterns of the 6 lines which are > commented upon 21 the stick in the open mouth, 51 thunder repeated, 61 the > > hollow core within). > What I like most about this Pythagorean or number pattern > perspective > is its ability to explain itself in terms of the first 10 hexagrams whose > meanings can be taken quite literally (at least in one sense for this > purpose) from the associations with the trigrams. Thus, hexagram one is > Sunshine. Weiger,SJ in his Chinese Characters gives the meaning of the > Ch'ien > ideogram as sunshine evaporating the fog of a miasmal swamp to produce > clouds > to nourish the fields. Thus the monad of this first set is the Water Cycle > as > it exists most concretely upon this Planet Earth. > Hexagrams 2 and 3 then represent the dichotomy of the water cycle. One > polar opposite the open Earth itself, the other the awakening energy of > the > spring storms of thunder and rain (In Chinese thought thunder arises from > the > earth rather than lightning striking down from static electricity in > clouds) > Hexagrams 4,5.6 are the process of the water cycle. Water under the > mountain is the pressure of the artesian springs, that is rain falling > upon > the mountains produce the potential gradient which powers the water cycle > upon the earth. The clouds or water in heaven or over the sunshine falling > > upon the earth express the middle of the process of the water cycle -- the > > potential of gravity and geography brought to the point of clouds over the > > land about to rain. Then the end of the process of the water cycle is when > > the fundamental potential and the position of clouds in place comes > together > in terms of rain falling from the sky. At that point the water cycle > potential has become actual and the rest is inevitable geography. > Hexagrams 7.8, 9,10 express that action of the water cycle. Hexagram > 7 > and 8 give the yang and then yin of water upon the earth. In 7 water is > within the earth and the flow of water is controlled by the earth's > absorption of the rain, only what is let go by the earth is available to > flow > on to rivers and the sea. 8 is the yin or background to this, the water > upon > the earth in streams and rivers flowing along the contours of the > geography. > Hexagrams 9 and 10 are again the yang and yin of the final results of the > water cycle. Nine: the winds over the sunshine or the pressure gradients > or > high and low pressure fronts that produce the winds and determine where > there > is rain and the like which are the focus of the water cycle as an overall > process of the interaction of sunshine and Earth geography. 10 is the > simple > yin of the final results, the lake under sunshine, the water now at rest > in > the sea being gently evaporated by sunshine to start the process all over > again. > That is at least the beginning outlines of the correspondences which > I > come more and more to believe are actually the universal insight at the > core > of all the metaphysical systems of our Planet throughout time. > Frank > > > ===== > To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org > from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 20:59:22 EST From: Autorbis@aol.com Subject: Re: HEX8: I Ching, Pythagorean Computer and Astrology Hi Frank, I'm still on my way in the try to understand you, please excuse :-) << Hi Lothar, I have only my own work correlating I Ching to astrology and to the Pythagorean Computer (common dice). The "Pythagorean computer" is a "common dice", I do assume? Or do you speak of the Tetraktys? For a while my text linking the Sabian Symbols in Astrology of Marc Jones with the lines of the 60 hexagrams within the first and last pairs (1,2,63,64) was published on the web. Aries Press of America has the two books, Stars and Dice (explaining the elements of astrology from dice dot-pattens) and Intro to the X-ray Eye (combining astrology with I Ching Hexagram structure). ### They do have books of you or from Marc Jones? What is an X-Ray-Eye? The two general correlations I use are as follows: The zodiac and the 4 angles of astrology correlate to the first and last two hexagrams for the angles, and the remaining 60 hexagrams of 6 lines to the 360 degrees of the zodiac starting with 1 Aries to the first line of hexagram 48 and the first line of hexagram 3 to 1 degree Cancer. ### Just a remark. You're aware, that the Chinese doesn't use our 0° in their solar calendar, but constantly the 15 ° -point as beginning and end of solar monthes? Also they do start spring at 15° aquarius, summer at 15° taurus etc., as they have a somewhat different but also logical view at solar time as our astrology. That is a continuous circle from hexagram 3 to hexagram 62 which begins at the bottom of the page since hexagrams grow from the earth, while the circle of the zodiac begins at the left side since astrology is measured from what appears upon the Eastern horizon. The general sequence of the I Ching follows the Pythagorean number patterns. ### What is the Pythagorean number pattern in your view? Chinese number is either very primitive or else philosophically sophisticated modular arithmetic based upon Pythagorean (or universal equivalent) sets of 10 derived from the formula 10= 1+2+3+4 or the complete set is composed of the monad, the dichotomy, the beginning-middle-end of process and the double dichotomy. ### The idea looks not bad, but there are many, how you do understand this .... ? This then explains the commentary mentioned in Wilhelm/Baynes and else where of the I Ching being organized in two halves, the first half being 30 hexagrams arranged in sets of 10 relating to Earth, Man, Heaven and each of the sets of 10 in the whole Yi being keynoted by the hexagrams which end in 1 (there is a bit of mention in hexagrams 11, 31, 41 the others have patterns of the 6 lines which are commented upon 21 the stick in the open mouth, 51 thunder repeated, 61 the hollow core within). ### You stay a little unclear here: The I-Ching seems to parted in 30 (Nr. 1 - - 30) + 34 (Nr 31 - Nr. 64) hexagrams, or, if I do understand you correctly 2 + 28 + 32 + 2, when the use the pairs 1 + 2 and 63 + 64 as edges of the system. What I like most about this Pythagorean or number pattern perspective is its ability to explain itself in terms of the first 10 hexagrams whose meanings can be taken quite literally (at least in one sense for this purpose) from the associations with the trigrams. Thus, hexagram one is Sunshine. Weiger,SJ in his Chinese Characters gives the meaning of the Ch'ien ideogram as sunshine evaporating the fog of a miasmal swamp to produce clouds to nourish the fields. Thus the monad of this first set is the Water Cycle as it exists most concretely upon this Planet Earth. Hexagrams 2 and 3 then represent the dichotomy of the water cycle. One polar opposite the open Earth itself, the other the awakening energy of the spring storms of thunder and rain (In Chinese thought thunder arises from the earth rather than lightning striking down from static electricity in clouds) Hexagrams 4,5.6 are the process of the water cycle. Water under the mountain is the pressure of the artesian springs, that is rain falling upon the mountains produce the potential gradient which powers the water cycle upon the earth. The clouds or water in heaven or over the sunshine falling upon the earth express the middle of the process of the water cycle -- the potential of gravity and geography brought to the point of clouds over the land about to rain. Then the end of the process of the water cycle is when the fundamental potential and the position of clouds in place comes together in terms of rain falling from the sky. At that point the water cycle potential has become actual and the rest is inevitable geography. Hexagrams 7.8, 9,10 express that action of the water cycle. Hexagram 7 and 8 give the yang and then yin of water upon the earth. In 7 water is within the earth and the flow of water is controlled by the earth's absorption of the rain, only what is let go by the earth is available to flow on to rivers and the sea. 8 is the yin or background to this, the water upon the earth in streams and rivers flowing along the contours of the geography. Hexagrams 9 and 10 are again the yang and yin of the final results of the water cycle. Nine: the winds over the sunshine or the pressure gradients or high and low pressure fronts that produce the winds and determine where there is rain and the like which are the focus of the water cycle as an overall process of the interaction of sunshine and Earth geography. 10 is the simple yin of the final results, the lake under sunshine, the water now at rest in the sea being gently evaporated by sunshine to start the process all over again. That is at least the beginning outlines of the correspondences which I come more and more to believe are actually the universal insight at the core of all the metaphysical systems of our Planet throughout time. ### So in your idea 1-10 are the water-cycle. Then 11 - 20 is another cycle (fire perhaps ?), 21 - 30 another cycle (perhaps wood) etc. Is that your model? Greetings Lothar ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 20:59:15 EST From: Autorbis@aol.com Subject: Re: HEX8: Re: I Ching as tortoise shell archives << The best is to check my web site and read the intro. It is a very interesting book, and, given its low cost, should be read by all users of the I Ching. >> Hi Kirk, I had a visit at your nice home page and enjoyed the photo of my favourite go player Takemiya, whom I always loved for his "cosmic" go-style :-) Buying foreign books always becomes a little expensive here. >From your article it becomes not really clear, to which degree some details are "only" an interesting theory or if it is backed up with with undenyable evidence. Anyway, its interesting, and, at least, a nice imagination, how it could have happened. Although I've strong doubts about these thousands of divination masters, who developed the I-Ching in small careful steps. In that case it actually should be a little more text, I guess. It's this Javary book, right? I'm working at my home page, and I'm looking for some really good historical articles about the origin of I-Ching, which I want to include there as a base of information. If you or Javary or the publisher or whoever is copyrighted with this article doesn't mind I would like to show it there, together with a reference, of course. Although it'll take some time ... :-) Lothar The Development of the Text (the first part of the Zhou Dynasty 12th to 8th century BCE) Writing enlarged the use of divination so much that the diviners found themselves confronted with an unexpected situation: the near-extinction of fresh water tortoises in Northern China. Since going back to using bones, as before, was inconceivable, they had to find another procedure. For formal divinations, they would continue burning tortoise shells. But for ³everyday² divinations, they thought of using the supply of tortoise shells that they already had in their archives, which was becoming overwhelming. Theoretically, this would not be a problem, since their divinatory practice had already developed the conception of a global cyclic rhythm of different moments, favorable and unfavorable. It was therefore logical to assume that for each present situation, there should be, somewhere in the archives, at least one tortoise shell with the same type of cracks that would appear if a burning was done for that situation. The important thing was to find out which one. In other words, how could they make a one-to-one correspondence from an open set of questions to a closed set of answers? The response that the Chinese developed was elegant. They would use chance, and tame it with mathematics. >From a practical point of view, this just meant taking a walk in the country to pick 49 straight stalks of a plant used for healing wounds, that is found along any path: the yarrow. Then, the operation is as follows: all of the stalks are held in one hand, and with the thumb, the bunch of stalks is split in two by chance. This action is important, because it is an analogy for the fire-brand cracking the tortoise shell. Next, the two groups of stalks are counted, using a special procedure, and the remainder is put aside. This operation is done two more times, and results in a final remainder which can only be one of a certain number of mathematically possible values. The origin of this method goes back to the shamans, those mediators of heaven and earth, whose rituals were born in Siberian prehistory. The story of their role in ancient Chinese history has not yet been written, and the Classical Chinese, always too proud of themselves, continually repudiated their importance, with the greatest of ingratitude. The person that the School of diviners have attributed this invention to - - and here, it is an invention - was a real person. His name, Wu Xian - which means: the influential (xian) shaman (wu) - has been found on a number of tortoise shells used for divination. But he has been totally overlooked by the legend of the Yi Jing. However, the core text of the ³Book of Changes² retains the memory of his influence. The 31st hexagram (Xian, Inciting) carries his name, and it is precisely this hexagram that opens the second part of the Yi Jing, just after the first part has been ended by hexagram no. 30, Overcoming bedazzlement, (also referred to as Fire), whose importance to divination we have already seen. But Wu Xian really started a new era in the history of the Yi Jing. Not only are the principles he developed still used today when one ³casts² the Yi Jing with yarrow stalks (see box p. XX), but by using numbers as symbols of classification, he insured the link with one of Fu Xi¹s inventions that had not yet been clarified, the use of knotted cords. To understand this, we need to go back in time a bit. The Shang diviners were very meticulous. Not only did they split their questions into two parts (do this?/not do this?), but especially, for each part of the question, they would repeat the burning operation a number of times. These series of burnings were usually repeated six times. This is probably one of the reasons that hexagrams are made up of six lines. They also had another habit which was to differentiate the types of cracks obtained by using symbolic numbers. This habit would turn out to have important consequences, because it would allow the development of a correlation between the burning of tortoise shells and the counting of yarrow stalks. In this method, the successive subtractions carried out after the chance splitting of the stalks are designed to end up with a series of six standard numbers which are used to determine the hexagram that answers the question. In the past, the method was the same, the difference being that when the numbers were found they did not lead to a hexagram, but rather to a tortoise shell, whose burning had led to the same order of numbers. All that was necessary was to find the tortoise shell, take it from the shelf where it was stored, read the mantic texts that were engraved on it, and put it back in its place. This procedure was rigorous, analogically rational, and tedious. For the pragmatic thinkers that were the Chinese, it was not long before they had the idea of copying the information from the tortoise shells onto a more user-friendly medium. To do this, they wrote on strips of bamboo that were tied together with bands of leather or silk. What may seem to us a simple change of medium was actually the key to a total change in perspective. The diviners, now become scribes, were not satisfied with just identically copying the myriad divinatory commentaries that they had at their disposal. They slowly itemized, organized, combined, and arranged all of this empirical data into a system. This type of approach, which for us is the perfect example of a scientific approach, is an exercise that the Chinese enjoy, and that they are indeed proficient in. Using the same method and the same patience, they organized the open set of symptoms onto the closed set of points on the surface of the human body, and gave a structure to acupuncture, which, much later, naturally used the figures and vocabulary of the Yi Jing to expose its theory. But the diviner-scribes did not know this yet. For the moment, and for the next few centuries to come, they were busy grouping similar sentences, putting others end to end, and also, sometimes, adding certain new phrases that were called for by the logic that was slowly becoming apparent in the compilation that they were creating. But this time, it was the bona fide Yi Jing that was being born, because in addition to the text, copied from tortoise shells, the use of yarrow stalks brought with them the theoretical underpinning that had been missing until then: the idea of change. Since using the yarrow stalks made divination an operation that cost nothing, the diviners would develop the habit of obtaining not one, but two series of numbers for each question. Then, comparing the two, they would notice what varied from one to the other. This allowed them to draw more precise conclusions about the evolution of the flow of things. As before, they were still concerned with the quality of the moment, but now they were examining its evolution, which allowed much more precise answers. Later, thanks to a specific reflection on the symbolic numbers themselves, they would be able to determine the sequence of evolution directly from the series of numbers cast (see chapter 3). Kirk ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 02:10:48 EST From: FKegan@aol.com Subject: HEX8: Re: Pythagoras and Universal number Hi Lothar, I understand the difficulty understanding, it took me 30 years and a lot of help from all sorts of sources as well as a background in science so extensive that when things that were accepted as true didn't make sense I was allowed to track down where the errors came from instead of being forced to just do the exercises and forget the doubts. The regular dice we all know and love are the Pythagorean Computer. What is going on at the craps table is an experimental exercise where the dice are actually reading the tone of whatever is on the shooter's mind, very much of an oracle. I believe the rules of the game come from a Pythagorean initiate's exercise where one is trying to get to the same number by two pathways by one's own effort without having the cosmic 7 intervene in the process. If the first roll is 7 or 11 (the two numbers up to 12 not factors of 360) you start with the cosmic so it is "lucky" or a winner. The Tetraktys is the technical Pythagorean term for the formula 10=1+2+3+4 in Pythagorean Source Book (at Amazon.com) they have ancient comments upon it. They all sound a bit strange until the philosophical perspective gets clear. They say the Tetraktys is the great discovery of Pythagoras and exactly what that means is only slightly clear to me. As to the Aries Press of America they publish the Marc Jones' Sabian Symbols in Astrology as well as my books on I Ching, Stars and Dice and X-Ray Eye. Marc Jones developed a linear astrological technique putting the zodiac around the body which he called The Ladder. I took that matrix and grouped the signs in pairs which made for 6 areas which can be described by the 3 dichotomies Above and Below the Waist, Inside and Outside, Personal and Impersonal. When one's natal planets are put into this body form by their signs the result is an X-Ray Eye which is an alternative to the horoscope wheel. If you know your natal planets, it is easier to do your X-Ray eye and resultant natal hexagram than try to explain it all, and you can see for yourself why I call it X-Ray. There is no zero in any geometrical system, the natural numbers begin with 1, Pythagorean systems start with a monad or unit, zero is in ancient geometry like infinity in our math. The Chinese calendar is a mess. It is a lunar calendar apparently starting with the date of a particular amazing celestial event (all sorts of planets lined up in one sign -- JPL found the date of the event in their work and published something about it on the web some years back) and then the discrepancy with the solar year corrected for many times. The circle of the zodiac is 360 degrees, the solar year isn't 360 days. The secret of ancient metaphysics is that you don't try to shoe horn reality into your symbolism. The year can be seen as a cycle of the seasons, the I Ching hexagrams can be arranged in a circle. Geometrical metaphysics runs on the principle that all circles are similar. That is similar, not identical. You have to keep the pattern and not get caught up in trying to get reality to fit exactly. The ancient proof of this is quite simple: watch the path of the sun or the ecliptic of the planets. It is at an angle not square to anything any way you look at things. The day, the month and year do not fit neatly or exactly into each other. Math symbolism requires neatly exact relations, but reality never fits that. You just accept it and go on. Starting Chinese months in the 15th degree of signs would just make life easier since trying to get the ends to match up never works. Expecting it to work is the mark of the metaphysical amateur. Actually, putting the cardinal points in the middle of signs fits the thinking of a system that doesn't use perpendiculars. If you compare the compass-and-straight edge construction of the Tai Chi (yin/yang symbol) to that of the horoscope wheel, what is the big difference is that the Tai Chi has no perpendiculars, so the cardinal points wouldn't be lined up square to be the beginning of the 12 signs. It is not a correlation of the signs or cardinal points of the year to the I Ching, but of the 360 degrees of the zodiac to the 360 lines of the core hexagrams. The Pythagorean number patterns or Eidos, for me are the patterns on the dice faces as well as other sets of patterns used by Pythagoreans (they have a complete universe of them). It was reading in Pythagorean Source Book (Guthrie) that I noticed the diagram of the Triad as two little circles inside a larger one, was also the geometrical framework of the Tai Chi. And later I found that you could get the whole set of 1+2+3+4 in the elements of the Tai Chi which meant you could use it as an exemplar of the Tetraktys and with that the connection of I Ching and Pythagoras lit up in my mind. The Tai Chi symbol as a whole would be the monad, the two halves white and black are the Dyad (or Yin and Yang), the three elements of the seeds, the swirls and the circumference as beginning, middle and end of process or the triad. The symmetrical sets of white seed (or eye) and white swirl in the other half and the corresponding black pair are the Tetrad double dichotomy. Dividing the I Ching in half at hexagram 30 is standard in the Wilhelm and most commentaries. That the hexagrams are grouped in sets of 10 is also in the Wilhelm. That is a square arrangement, 6 sets of 10 and four left over that make overall patterns. This is quite separate from the circular set of the core 60 hexagrams with 1,2, 63, 64 left over on the outside, or in Western zodiac terms upon the angles or perpendiculars. The three sets of the first half are Earth, Man, Heaven like in all of Chinese philosophy. Thirty hexagrams in sets of 10 would be 1-10, 11-20 and 21-30 with each hexagram ending in the same digit (example 4, 14, 24) being related to a similar Pythagorean philosophical or number pattern within the context of it set of 10. The Earth set is the concrete water cycle, the Human set deals with society, and the Heaven set deals with bringing human life into harmony with the Cosmos, starting with applying justice (21) and coming to final peace in the image of fire clinging to its wood fuel (30). Hex 30 is the trigram of fire doubled, but its meaning refers to docility, the way common fire clings to its fuel. Hopefully, that answers your specific questions, although I would expect it will still take until these notions fit some pattern of your own before they would make much sense to you. Greetings, Frank ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ End of hexagram-8-digest V1 #164 ******************************** From owner-hexagram-8-digest@apocalypse.org Thu Mar 23 01:52:51 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA04984 for hexagram-8-digest-outgoing; Thu, 23 Mar 2000 01:52:51 -0500 Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 01:52:51 -0500 Message-Id: <200003230652.BAA04984@apocalypse.org> X-Authentication-Warning: apocalypse.org: majordom set sender to owner-hexagram-8-digest@apocalypse.org using -f From: owner-hexagram-8-digest@apocalypse.org (hexagram-8-digest) To: hexagram-8-digest@apocalypse.org Subject: hexagram-8-digest V1 #165 Reply-To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Sender: owner-hexagram-8-digest@apocalypse.org Errors-To: owner-hexagram-8-digest@apocalypse.org Precedence: bulk hexagram-8-digest Thursday, March 23 2000 Volume 01 : Number 165 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 02:10:52 EST From: FKegan@aol.com Subject: HEX8: Correspondences Hi Marc, I have see the Crowley connections with the I Ching. He is a good illustration of what difficulties one can get into confusing what appeals to us personally with what is actually objectively a correspondence. That is always the great question, is it a correspondence based solely in my own imagination or does this correspondence arise from the fundamental structure and nature of the system. What I appreciate about the geometrical grounding is that that is a universal and objective symbol system which gives far greater confidence that it actually is connected to the essence of the I Ching. If you look at the diagrams of the 5 element system in the Yi, you find them laid out as four elements around a central one. There wouldn't so much be a correspondence between one set of 4 elements laid out on a square and a system of five elements laid out on the four sides of a square and the center as there would just be the realization that astrology is based on the geometry of the perpendicular bisector and so the center is implicit already. Chinese systems don't use perpendiculars, so the center remains an independent point to be given its own element. Cheers, Frank ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 09:58:05 +0100 From: Kirk McElhearn Subject: Re: HEX8: Re: I Ching as tortoise shell archives On 22/03/00 2:59, Autorbis@aol.com Autorbis@aol.com is reported to have said: >I'm working at my home page, and I'm looking for some really good historical >articles about the origin of I-Ching, which I want to include there as a >base >of information. If you or Javary or the publisher or whoever is copyrighted >with this article doesn't mind I would like to show it there, together >with a >reference, of course. > >Although it'll take some time ... :-) No, I'm afraid you couldn't reproduce it because of copyright questions. It is from the Javary book, published by Shambhala. Kirk vice | versa Translations from French to English, English to French Traductions francais-anglais, anglais-francais kirk@mcelhearn.com http://www.mcelhearn.com Kirk McElhearn | Chemin de la Lauze | 05600 Guillestre | France ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 09:52:28 -0300 From: "Ely Britto" Subject: Re: HEX8: Re: Pythagoras and Universal number > I understand the difficulty understanding, it took me 30 years and a lot >of help from all sorts of sources as well as a background in science so >extensive that when things that were accepted as true didn't make sense I was >allowed to track down where the errors came from instead of being forced to >just do the exercises and forget the doubts. Dear Frank, I read your post to Roy, he gave it to me. Using what I had learned from design and exploring the forms of the Tai Chi (Yin and Yang symbol) and looking at it by the eyes of a child, I could understand the wonderful patterns you are talking about, not only in the Tai Chi or the I Ching, but in life, in every leave and every manifested thing in nature. The I Ching is this system. Have you read the Hua Ni I Ching book? He published many diagrams of those patterns. The letter you sent talking about the geometric structure of the Tai Chi, is very interesting, easy, clear and simple and you could send it to the list, please. You really succeed in passing the essencial meaning of all your study. I think your knowledge about geometry will help us to see the essencial poetry and science of the I Ching. Thanks Ely ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 08:17:55 EST From: Autorbis@aol.com Subject: Re: HEX8: Re: Pythagoras and Universal number Hi Frank, thanks for your patient reply, << Hi Lothar, I understand the difficulty understanding, it took me 30 years and a lot of help from all sorts of sources as well as a background in science so extensive that when things that were accepted as true didn't make sense I was allowed to track down where the errors came from instead of being forced to just do the exercises and forget the doubts. ### I appreciate this viewing point as the result of hard work ... and I think it is a natural result, given the actual state of human research :-) The regular dice we all know and love are the Pythagorean Computer. What is going on at the craps table is an experimental exercise where the dice are actually reading the tone of whatever is on the shooter's mind, very much of an oracle. I believe the rules of the game come from a Pythagorean initiate's exercise where one is trying to get to the same number by two pathways by one's own effort without having the cosmic 7 intervene in the process. If the first roll is 7 or 11 (the two numbers up to 12 not factors of 360) you start with the cosmic so it is "lucky" or a winner. ### You might be right, although I think, one has to assume, that the dice played only the role of a central symbol. Probably the Pythagoreans were open to all kind of mathematical mysteries, that they could lay their hand on ... They called themselves "mathematikos", and it was the invention of this term. The Tetraktys is the technical Pythagorean term for the formula 10=1+2+3+4 in Pythagorean Source Book (at Amazon.com) they have ancient comments upon it. ### Right. They all sound a bit strange until the philosophical perspective gets clear. ### Right. They say the Tetraktys is the great discovery of Pythagoras and exactly what that means is only slightly clear to me. As to the Aries Press of America they publish the Marc Jones' Sabian Symbols in Astrology as well as my books on I Ching, Stars and Dice and X-Ray Eye. Marc Jones developed a linear astrological technique putting the zodiac around the body which he called The Ladder. ### Around the general human body, I do assume? I took that matrix and grouped the signs in pairs which made for 6 areas which can be described by the 3 dichotomies Above and Below the Waist, Inside and Outside, Personal and Impersonal. ### Reflecting the idea body-soul-spirit? If you follow the dice-idea you might have taken above-below, front - back, left-right? When one's natal planets are put into this body form by their signs the result is an X-Ray Eye which is an alternative to the horoscope wheel. If you know your natal planets, it is easier to do your X-Ray eye and resultant natal hexagram than try to explain it all, and you can see for yourself why I call it X-Ray. ### Well, then I get a sort of personal horoskop, dealing with the given informations of astronomy/astrology. What is new with this? There is no zero in any geometrical system, ### ??? The dice has a center, which might be seen as another dice with it's extensions = 0 ??? the natural numbers begin with 1, Pythagorean systems start with a monad or unit, zero is in ancient geometry like infinity in our math. The Chinese calendar is a mess. It is a lunar calendar apparently starting with the date of a particular amazing celestial event (all sorts of planets lined up in one sign -- JPL found the date of the event in their work and published something about it on the web some years back) and then the discrepancy with the solar year corrected for many times. ### Indepently from this research of JPL (?, who is this), the Chinese had a solar AND a lunar calendar. We've here one expert for chinese astrology, Ray Langley, who could present that in details. The circle of the zodiac is 360 degrees, the solar year isn't 360 days. The secret of ancient metaphysics is that you don't try to shoe horn reality into your symbolism. The year can be seen as a cycle of the seasons, the I Ching hexagrams can be arranged in a circle. ### History knows a lot of different solutions for the calendar question. The Egyptians gave the year 360 days, adding 5 which they doesn't counted, and developing a myth about Thot, Isis, Osiris etc. to explain the difference between logical perfectness (360 degree) and profane reality (365 days). Geometrical metaphysics runs on the principle that all circles are similar. That is similar, not identical. You have to keep the pattern and not get caught up in trying to get reality to fit exactly. The ancient proof of this is quite simple: watch the path of the sun or the ecliptic of the planets. It is at an angle not square to anything any way you look at things. The day, the month and year do not fit neatly or exactly into each other. Math symbolism requires neatly exact relations, but reality never fits that. You just accept it and go on. Starting Chinese months in the 15th degree of signs would just make life easier since trying to get the ends to match up never works. Expecting it to work is the mark of the metaphysical amateur. ### As they knew the solar run rather good, they actually did it. Actually, putting the cardinal points in the middle of signs fits the thinking of a system that doesn't use perpendiculars. If you compare the compass-and-straight edge construction of the Tai Chi (yin/yang symbol) to that of the horoscope wheel, what is the big difference is that the Tai Chi has no perpendiculars, so the cardinal points wouldn't be lined up square to be the beginning of the 12 signs. It is not a correlation of the signs or cardinal points of the year to the I Ching, but of the 360 degrees of the zodiac to the 360 lines of the core hexagrams. ### A 13-moon-year has rather perfectly 384 days. As the I-Ching consists in its complete set with 64 hexagrams of 384 lines, you could correlate each hexagram to six days of this LUNAR year - very perfectly. Probably this was tried once in one of these many chinese astrologies - without too much resonance above all the other astrologies, that they had. Which doesn't mean, that they didn't also try to deal with a connection of 360 degrees and 360 lines of 60 core hexagrams. Perhaps Ray even knows one this systems. But chinese astrology is a great field of done experiments. The Pythagorean number patterns or Eidos, for me are the patterns on the dice faces as well as other sets of patterns used by Pythagoreans (they have a complete universe of them). It was reading in Pythagorean Source Book (Guthrie) that I noticed the diagram of the Triad as two little circles inside a larger one, was also the geometrical framework of the Tai Chi. And later I found that you could get the whole set of 1+2+3+4 in the elements of the Tai Chi which meant you could use it as an exemplar of the Tetraktys and with that the connection of I Ching and Pythagoras lit up in my mind. The Tai Chi symbol as a whole would be the monad, the two halves white and black are the Dyad (or Yin and Yang), the three elements of the seeds, the swirls and the circumference as beginning, middle and end of process or the triad. The symmetrical sets of white seed (or eye) and white swirl in the other half and the corresponding black pair are the Tetrad double dichotomy. ### I think you're right with this. But .... I wonder :-), why doesn't you speak openly, that this is the structure of I-Ching? The I-Ching, as we do know it, is done by the same numbers 1,2,3,4. A 1 for the unity, a 2x3 to form the basic form of hexagram (2x3 = 6), a 4 to realize the variations (6, 7, 8, 9). In this model the dice is naturally included (2x3). Dividing the I Ching in half at hexagram 30 is standard in the Wilhelm and most commentaries. That the hexagrams are grouped in sets of 10 is also in the Wilhelm. That is a square arrangement, 6 sets of 10 and four left over that make overall patterns. This is quite separate from the circular set of the core 60 hexagrams with 1,2, 63, 64 left over on the outside, or in Western zodiac terms upon the angles or perpendiculars. The three sets of the first half are Earth, Man, Heaven like in all of Chinese philosophy. Thirty hexagrams in sets of 10 would be 1-10, 11-20 and 21-30 with each hexagram ending in the same digit (example 4, 14, 24) being related to a similar Pythagorean philosophical or number pattern within the context of it set of 10. The Earth set is the concrete water cycle, the Human set deals with society, and the Heaven set deals with bringing human life into harmony with the Cosmos, starting with applying justice (21) and coming to final peace in the image of fire clinging to its wood fuel (30). Hex 30 is the trigram of fire doubled, but its meaning refers to docility, the way common fire clings to its fuel. ### Basicly I think, you've an rather good idea here. Well, but I also think, you're not right with this. Perhaps ... did you ever think about the possibility, that the numerology of I-Ching once had been sorted in a perfect, mathematical attractive way, but was corrupted by other historical interactions of ... let's say, "good or bad taste" of that people, who had the power to do so? For instance: 11-12 - 31-32 - 41-42 - 51-52 .... this looks like being sorted. If you would fill it in an elegant way (from the mathematical viewing point) you should add 57-58 and 29-30 and should sort a bit (I hope, you can verify this, if not, I must explain). But the I-Ching presents the signs 21-22 and 61-62 (or 1+2) in this row. One reason for the "change" we can understand. The moon needs 29.53 days to go from full to full. This did lead to a calendar, in which one month were counted with 29 days and the next with 30, probably this did lead to a "language fact", that one sort of monthes were called "moon-monthes (29 days)" and other as "sun-monthes (30 days). . So the identification of double-trigram-hex kan = moon with the number 29 and the identification of the double-trigram-hex li = sun with the number 30 was probably the reason, why a former existing systematical order of the hexagrams was disturbed. Probably this was not the only idea, which disturbed the original order .... ## Hopefully, that answers your specific questions, although I would expect it will still take until these notions fit some pattern of your own before they would make much sense to you. ### Wel, it becomes clearer now :-) Greetings Lothar ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 09:47:12 -0600 From: omei shan Subject: Re: HEX8: Re: Pythagoras and Universal number Oh, dear! A little background on numbers seems to be in order! First - Zero's historical roots go back to approximately 8th or 9th century AD in India. Even the world's first great mathematicians, the Babylonians, did not use zero, although they were keenly aware of the need for a "placeholder" in a number. Two - The decimal number system we use today was not invented by one person, even though there are many legends to the contrary. The decimal number system derives from a place notation system developed by the Babylonians, a base 60 number system called the sexagesimal system - base 60. The base was divided into a sub-group system of 10s, from which we get our base 10 number system. Three - The ancient Greeks were completely enamored of the numbers 1 thru 10, and studied its properties quite extensively. They were especially taken with the number 10 (tetraktys), because the numbers 1 thru 4 could be represented by an equilateral triangle - It was the same on all sides. However, the Greeks DID NOT like fractions, and Heaven forbid anyone should talk about irrational numbers! Continuing - Western Europe continued to use the Roman number system until 1202AD, when Fibonacci wrote a book introducing the Arabic number system. Since Roman numbers worked well for the needs of the day - Simple accounting and measuring - it was several hundred years before the new system caught on. It was not until then that progress could be made in the mathematical field, and then it really took off - Newton, Descartes, Fermat (one of my personal favorites), Liebnitz (another favorite), Sophie Germaine (oh yes!), and many others could not have made the discoveries they did without that new-fangled number system. Still continuing - Now the tie-in to the I Ching. At the time Fu Hsi developed his notation system, the mathematical concepts and notation we take for granted had not been developed, so he came up with his own. He was trying to convey ideas which were literally thousand of years ahead of his times. I think his use of solid and broken lines was a stroke of absolute genius, but I also belive that his ideas would have taken a VERY different form had he had access to modern mathematical notation. For example, how would he have represented the non-linear dynamics (chaos) which we can now demonstrate? There is a most excellent book by Michael S. Schneider "A Beginner's Guide to Constructing the Universe: The Mathematical Archetypes of Nature, Art and Science" which I highly recommend to those who wish to know more about number theory. It's an "easy read," entertaining, and *quite* educational. Monica "Perspcuity is the hallmark of erudition". At 08:17 AM 03/22/2000 EST, you wrote: >Hi Frank, thanks for your patient reply, > ><< Hi Lothar, > I understand the difficulty understanding, it took me 30 years and a >lot > of help from all sorts of sources as well as a background in science so > extensive that when things that were accepted as true didn't make sense I >was > allowed to track down where the errors came from instead of being forced to > just do the exercises and forget the doubts. > >### I appreciate this viewing point as the result of hard work ... and I >think it is a natural result, given the actual state of human research :-) > > The regular dice we all know and love are the Pythagorean Computer. > What is going on at the craps table is an experimental exercise where the > dice are actually reading the tone of whatever is on the shooter's mind, >very > much of an oracle. I believe the rules of the game come from a Pythagorean > initiate's exercise where one is trying to get to the same number by two > pathways by one's own effort without having the cosmic 7 intervene in the > process. If the first roll is 7 or 11 (the two numbers up to 12 not factors > of 360) you start with the cosmic so it is "lucky" or a winner. > >### You might be right, although I think, one has to assume, that the dice >played only the role of a central symbol. Probably the Pythagoreans were open >to all kind of mathematical mysteries, that they could lay their hand on ... >They called themselves "mathematikos", and it was the invention of this term. > > The Tetraktys is the technical Pythagorean term for the formula > 10=1+2+3+4 in Pythagorean Source Book (at Amazon.com) they have ancient > comments upon it. > >### Right. > >They all sound a bit strange until the philosophical > perspective gets clear. > >### Right. > >They say the Tetraktys is the great discovery of > Pythagoras and exactly what that means is only slightly clear to me. > As to the Aries Press of America they publish the Marc Jones' Sabian > Symbols in Astrology as well as my books on I Ching, Stars and Dice and >X-Ray > Eye. > Marc Jones developed a linear astrological technique putting the zodiac > around the body which he called The Ladder. > >### Around the general human body, I do assume? > >I took that matrix and grouped > the signs in pairs which made for 6 areas which can be described by the 3 > dichotomies Above and Below the Waist, Inside and Outside, Personal and > Impersonal. > >### Reflecting the idea body-soul-spirit? If you follow the dice-idea you >might have taken above-below, front - back, left-right? > >When one's natal planets are put into this body form by their > signs the result is an X-Ray Eye which is an alternative to the horoscope > wheel. If you know your natal planets, it is easier to do your X-Ray eye and > resultant natal hexagram than try to explain it all, and you can see for > yourself why I call it X-Ray. > >### Well, then I get a sort of personal horoskop, dealing with the given >informations of astronomy/astrology. What is new with this? > > There is no zero in any geometrical system, > >### ??? The dice has a center, which might be seen as another dice with >it's extensions = 0 ??? > >the natural numbers begin > with 1, Pythagorean systems start with a monad or unit, zero is in ancient > geometry like infinity in our math. > > The Chinese calendar is a mess. It is a lunar calendar apparently > starting with the date of a particular amazing celestial event (all sorts of > planets lined up in one sign -- JPL found the date of the event in their >work > and published something about it on the web some years back) and then the > discrepancy with the solar year corrected for many times. > >### Indepently from this research of JPL (?, who is this), the Chinese had a >solar AND a lunar calendar. We've here one expert for chinese astrology, Ray >Langley, who could present that in details. > >The circle of the > zodiac is 360 degrees, the solar year isn't 360 days. The secret of ancient > metaphysics is that you don't try to shoe horn reality into your symbolism. > The year can be seen as a cycle of the seasons, the I Ching hexagrams can be > arranged in a circle. > >### History knows a lot of different solutions for the calendar question. The >Egyptians gave the year 360 days, adding 5 which they doesn't counted, and >developing a myth about Thot, Isis, Osiris etc. to explain the difference >between logical perfectness (360 degree) and profane reality (365 days). > >Geometrical metaphysics runs on the principle that all > circles are similar. That is similar, not identical. You have to keep the > pattern and not get caught up in trying to get reality to fit exactly. > The ancient proof of this is quite simple: watch the path of the sun > or the ecliptic of the planets. It is at an angle not square to anything any > way you look at things. The day, the month and year do not fit neatly or > exactly into each other. Math symbolism requires neatly exact relations, but > reality never fits that. You just accept it and go on. Starting Chinese > months in the 15th degree of signs would just make life easier since trying > to get the ends to match up never works. Expecting it to work is the mark >of > the metaphysical amateur. > >### As they knew the solar run rather good, they actually did it. > > Actually, putting the cardinal points in the middle of signs fits the > thinking of a system that doesn't use perpendiculars. If you compare the > compass-and-straight edge construction of the Tai Chi (yin/yang symbol) to > that of the horoscope wheel, what is the big difference is that the Tai Chi > has no perpendiculars, so the cardinal points wouldn't be lined up square to > be the beginning of the 12 signs. It is not a correlation of the signs or > cardinal points of the year to the I Ching, but of the 360 degrees of the > zodiac to the 360 lines of the core hexagrams. > >### A 13-moon-year has rather perfectly 384 days. As the I-Ching consists in >its complete set with 64 hexagrams of 384 lines, you could correlate each >hexagram to six days of this LUNAR year - very perfectly. Probably this was >tried once in one of these many chinese astrologies - without too much >resonance above all the other astrologies, that they had. >Which doesn't mean, that they didn't also try to deal with a connection of >360 degrees and 360 lines of 60 core hexagrams. >Perhaps Ray even knows one this systems. >But chinese astrology is a great field of done experiments. > > The Pythagorean number patterns or Eidos, for me are the patterns on >the > dice faces as well as other sets of patterns used by Pythagoreans (they have > a complete universe of them). It was reading in Pythagorean Source Book > (Guthrie) that I noticed the diagram of the Triad as two little circles > inside a larger one, was also the geometrical framework of the Tai Chi. And > later I found that you could get the whole set of 1+2+3+4 in the elements of > the Tai Chi which meant you could use it as an exemplar of the Tetraktys and > with that the connection of I Ching and Pythagoras lit up in my mind. > The Tai Chi symbol as a whole would be the monad, the two halves > white and black are the Dyad (or Yin and Yang), the three elements of the > seeds, the swirls and the circumference as beginning, middle and end of > process or the triad. The symmetrical sets of white seed (or eye) and white > swirl in the other half and the corresponding black pair are the Tetrad > double dichotomy. > >### I think you're right with this. But .... I wonder :-), why doesn't you >speak openly, that this is the structure of I-Ching? >The I-Ching, as we do know it, is done by the same numbers 1,2,3,4. >A 1 for the unity, a 2x3 to form the basic form of hexagram (2x3 = 6), a 4 to >realize the variations (6, 7, 8, 9). >In this model the dice is naturally included (2x3). > > > Dividing the I Ching in half at hexagram 30 is standard in the Wilhelm > and most commentaries. That the hexagrams are grouped in sets of 10 is also > in the Wilhelm. That is a square arrangement, 6 sets of 10 and four left >over > that make overall patterns. This is quite separate from the circular set of > the core 60 hexagrams with 1,2, 63, 64 left over on the outside, or in > Western zodiac terms upon the angles or perpendiculars. > The three sets of the first half are Earth, Man, Heaven like in all of > Chinese philosophy. Thirty hexagrams in sets of 10 would be 1-10, 11-20 and > 21-30 with each hexagram ending in the same digit (example 4, 14, 24) being > related to a similar Pythagorean philosophical or number pattern within the > context of it set of 10. > The Earth set is the concrete water cycle, the Human set deals with >society, > and the Heaven set deals with bringing human life into harmony with the > Cosmos, starting with applying justice (21) and coming to final peace in the > image of fire clinging to its wood fuel (30). Hex 30 is the trigram of fire > doubled, but its meaning refers to docility, the way common fire clings to > its fuel. > > >### Basicly I think, you've an rather good idea here. Well, but I also think, >you're not right with this. Perhaps ... did you ever think about the >possibility, that the numerology of I-Ching once had been sorted in a >perfect, mathematical attractive way, but was corrupted by other historical >interactions of ... let's say, "good or bad taste" of that people, who had >the power to do so? > >For instance: 11-12 - 31-32 - 41-42 - 51-52 .... this looks like being >sorted. If you would fill it in an elegant way (from the mathematical viewing >point) you should add 57-58 and 29-30 and should sort a bit (I hope, you can >verify this, if not, I must explain). > >But the I-Ching presents the signs 21-22 and 61-62 (or 1+2) in this row. >One reason for the "change" we can understand. The moon needs 29.53 days to >go from full to full. This did lead to a calendar, in which one month were >counted with 29 days and the next with 30, probably this did lead to a >"language fact", that one sort of monthes were called "moon-monthes (29 >days)" and other as "sun-monthes (30 days). >. So the identification of double-trigram-hex kan = moon with the number 29 >and the identification of the double-trigram-hex li = sun with the number 30 >was probably the reason, why a former existing systematical order of the >hexagrams was disturbed. >Probably this was not the only idea, which disturbed the original order .... >## > > Hopefully, that answers your specific questions, although I would > expect it will still take until these notions fit some pattern of your own > before they would make much sense to you. > >### Wel, it becomes clearer now :-) > >Greetings Lothar > > > >===== >To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org >from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. > ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 09:51:44 -0600 From: omei shan Subject: RE: HEX8: A Chi Kung exercise Thanks - I heard about it as an energy building meditation from my *other* discussion group. The reason it's so called is because the practitioner is supposed to build an "egg" of energy about themselves. I've studied a lot of Chi Kung, but I'd never heard anything like that. The author of the letter said the exercise came to him from Israel Regardie, who apparently got it from Aleister Crowley. Monica At 01:14 PM 03/20/2000 -0500, you wrote: >Hi Monica, > I have heard of something like this, are we talking about a stone/onyx/jade >egg >with a string attached, used somewhat intimately? Mantak Chia has some books >about this. I will look up the names later if you would like. > >Cheers! > >Marc. > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: omei shan [SMTP:omei@express-news.net] >> Sent: Friday, March 17, 2000 10:45 PM >> To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org >> Subject: HEX8: A Chi Kung exercise >> >> I know it's not *exactly* the I Ching, but... >> >> Has anyone ever heard of a Chi Kung practice sometimes called "The Egg >> Exercise?" >> >> >> Monica >> >> >> >> ===== >> To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org >> from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. > > > >===== >To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org >from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. > ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 13:17:37 -0500 From: "Power, Marc (ETS - Equity Development Support)" Subject: RE: HEX8: A Chi Kung exercise K, so it's not the Mantak Chia thing then. You are referring to the Egg aura strengthening exercise. I know of this also, you can read about it in Dion Fortunes 'Psychic Self-Defense' and many other books. Israel Regardie, Aleister Crowley and Dion Fortune (Violet Firth Evans) got it from the Golden Dawn, the turn of the century mystical society that included many victorian luminaries. I think that you can also get the details from the books by Israel Regardie about the Golden Dawn. Look under 'Body of Light'. Or you can ask me questions about it. Cheers! Marc. > -----Original Message----- > From: omei shan [SMTP:omei@express-news.net] > Sent: Wednesday, March 22, 2000 10:52 AM > To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org > Subject: RE: HEX8: A Chi Kung exercise > > Thanks - I heard about it as an energy building meditation from my *other* > discussion group. The reason it's so called is because the practitioner > is > supposed to build an "egg" of energy about themselves. > > I've studied a lot of Chi Kung, but I'd never heard anything like that. > The author of the letter said the exercise came to him from Israel > Regardie, who apparently got it from Aleister Crowley. > > > Monica > > > > > At 01:14 PM 03/20/2000 -0500, you wrote: > >Hi Monica, > > I have heard of something like this, are we talking about a > stone/onyx/jade > >egg > >with a string attached, used somewhat intimately? Mantak Chia has some > books > >about this. I will look up the names later if you would like. > > > >Cheers! > > > >Marc. > > > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: omei shan [SMTP:omei@express-news.net] > >> Sent: Friday, March 17, 2000 10:45 PM > >> To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org > >> Subject: HEX8: A Chi Kung exercise > >> > >> I know it's not *exactly* the I Ching, but... > >> > >> Has anyone ever heard of a Chi Kung practice sometimes called "The Egg > >> Exercise?" > >> > >> > >> Monica > >> > >> > >> > >> ===== > >> To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to > majordomo@apocalypse.org > >> from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. > > > > > > > >===== > >To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to > majordomo@apocalypse.org > >from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. > > > > > > ===== > To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org > from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 14:08:28 -0500 From: "Power, Marc (ETS - Equity Development Support)" Subject: HEX8: RE: Tetraktys Hi, There has been a lot of discussion about the Tetraktys of late. Just to clarify things for me, this is what I know as the Tetraktys: 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 >From whence all the stuff like 1+2+3+4=10 is derived, yes? Cheers! Marc. P.S. has anyone else here studied Geomantic divination or Napoleons Oracle? both of which seem remarkably similar to the I Ching. ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 21:40:21 EST From: Autorbis@aol.com Subject: Re: HEX8: Re: Pythagoras and Universal number << Oh, dear! A little background on numbers seems to be in order! First - Zero's historical roots go back to approximately 8th or 9th century AD in India. Even the world's first great mathematicians, the Babylonians, did not use zero, although they were keenly aware of the need for a "placeholder" in a number. ### Well, ciphers and numbers are not the same. It's true, that the Zero as a used and practical cipher developed rather lately. But the "idea" of zero or of "nothing" was older, even, when they were not aware of the practical use for it. In systems, when letters are used for numbers, like in the Greek system, which saw aleph = 1, iota 10, my = 40, omega = 800 etc. you naturally doesn't need a zero, as M = 40 and I=10 and O=800, but you need a sign for 1000 (as these letter-number-systems only work until 999). Same with the Roman (MM = 2000) and the Hebrew system. In other systems they did work with "place-holders", which did fulfill the necessary function. But this doesn't tell us, that they didn't reflect the idea of "nothing". Parmenides of Elea, writing around 480 BC (that's rather early), gives strong advice, that one shouldn't reflect the "non-being" (from which one may conclude, that others did like this reflections during his life-time), cause it leads to nothing :-). The teachings of Buddha (also around that time) seem to present a model around "nothingness". Even in mythology you meet ideas of "nothingness". Or here, Dschuang Dse: "The men in old time did lead their ackknowledgement to a last point of existene. Where was this last point of existence? They assumed a state, where existence of things hadn't started ....". Well, that's the idea of nothingness. I think, a rather common idea in old time. The non-existence of a mathemtical cipher for Zero doesn't prove, that there was no reflection about Zero or nothingness or the idea, that a point has no extensions. snip ... Still continuing - Now the tie-in to the I Ching. At the time Fu Hsi developed his notation system, the mathematical concepts and notation we take for granted had not been developed, so he came up with his own. He was trying to convey ideas which were literally thousand of years ahead of his times. I think his use of solid and broken lines was a stroke of absolute genius, but I also belive that his ideas would have taken a VERY different form had he had access to modern mathematical notation. For example, how would he have represented the non-linear dynamics (chaos) which we can now demonstrate? ### I think, a rather common idea in older time, not bery geniously. If you you take a walk through the older mythologies .... you probably meet a lot of things, which are rather similar. Lothar ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 21:40:16 EST From: Autorbis@aol.com Subject: Re: HEX8: RE: Tetraktys << Just to clarify things for me, this is what I know as the Tetraktys: 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 ### Yes. The real meaning and background of the Tetraktys is hidden, as the Pythogoreans had the idea to keep their secrets. The first known biography of Pythagoras was written around 800 years after his death inside a a philosophical development, which called itself Neo-Pythagorism. Pythagoras was already a mysterious figure in his lifetime (and later also). A lot of his biography reminds a modern Indian Guru. From whence all the stuff like 1+2+3+4=10 is derived, yes? Yes. Marc. P.S. has anyone else here studied Geomantic divination or Napoleons Oracle? both of which seem remarkably similar to the I Ching. >> ### Geomantic is in its basic structure very similar to I-Ching. Geomantic works with a binary code with 4 bits (16 units), the I-Ching with a binary code with 6 bits (64 units). In medieval times Geomanty was used in context with astrological models, which makes it technical rather different from I-Ching. A description is found by Agrippa von Nettesheim. The Napoleon Oracle is based upon 32 units, which makes itt somewhat near to I-Ching (64 units). I had once a short description of it, but I don't find it :-) Lothar ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 01:53:34 EST From: FKegan@aol.com Subject: Re: HEX8: RE: Tetraktys Hi Marc and Lothar, Yes, the standard image of the Tetraktys is a triangle of 10 dots in 4 rows, and in that form what is meant by declaring it the greatest of Pythagoras' discoveries clearly leaves much to be uncovered. It is also described as the sum of the monad, dyad, triad and tetrad. Getting from those cryptic words to the set of perspectives where they actually do make for serious philosophical analysis is a special privilege which seems to be given from the Cosmos rather than worked out through personal effort. Mentioning I Ching like systems, I came across a Barnes and Noble book called Ling Ch'i Ching by R.D, and Mei-Chun Lee Sawyer. It tells of an oracle based on throwing 12 disks marked upper, middle, or lower on one side. There are 125 possible results (three places with 0-4 possible results in each, so 5^3 total combinations) each of which can be associated to a trigram based on whether each of the three places has an even or odd number of disks turned up. ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ End of hexagram-8-digest V1 #165 ******************************** From owner-hexagram-8-digest@apocalypse.org Fri Mar 24 07:00:29 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id HAA28511 for hexagram-8-digest-outgoing; Fri, 24 Mar 2000 07:00:29 -0500 Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2000 07:00:29 -0500 Message-Id: <200003241200.HAA28511@apocalypse.org> X-Authentication-Warning: apocalypse.org: majordom set sender to owner-hexagram-8-digest@apocalypse.org using -f From: owner-hexagram-8-digest@apocalypse.org (hexagram-8-digest) To: hexagram-8-digest@apocalypse.org Subject: hexagram-8-digest V1 #166 Reply-To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Sender: owner-hexagram-8-digest@apocalypse.org Errors-To: owner-hexagram-8-digest@apocalypse.org Precedence: bulk hexagram-8-digest Friday, March 24 2000 Volume 01 : Number 166 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 02:05:15 EST From: FKegan@aol.com Subject: HEX8: Re: zero and geometry Hi Lothar, Zero is part of math systems involving places, that is bases on a power series. Binary math is the simplest of such systems, it having only the zero to represent the place holding and one for number. Geometry has nothing to do with representing numbers by a power series and the Geometrical number patterns, such as the dot-patterns on dice or the lines in hexagrams have no connection to modern math or zero. Nothingness is a philosophical concept, and there is speculation its use in math as a circle developed along the silk routes and became connected to abacus-like notions of math place systems. Again, all that has nothing to do with geometry or the number patterns of ancient "arithmetic" or in modern parlance, number theory. A few years back I saw an article on the Internet claiming Leibnitz must have been wrong to see binary math in the I Ching since binary math is part of computers and the ancient Chinese were an agricultural people unable to manage such sophisticated machinery. The fact that computers are mechanical and use binary math as the simplest system that requires no ability to recognize digits apparently was beyond that author's understanding. There is a completely different epistemology in the Ancient world. Piaget did some work comparing the stages of science theory to the stages he found in children. In any event, it is not a matter of one mathematics ancient and modern, they are truly very different worlds. Frank ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 02:20:32 EST From: FKegan@aol.com Subject: HEX8: Re: 13 lunar months Hi Lothar, I spent awhile researching the Chinese calendar and T. McKenna's time wave which also sees 13 lunar months in the total number of lines in the I Ching. The problem is that the Chinese and others who use a 13th month to get a lunar calendar to fit with a solar year just don't see it as 13 months. It is a 12 month calendar with an extra month added to keep up with the solar year. In general the hope to find exact matches between symbolic systems and celestial mechanics and to explain differences as later corruption of earlier perfection is a rather modern perspective. The great secret of ancient metaphysics is that it was quite clear to folks in the know throughout history and around the world that what made sense in celestial mechanics did not fit with simple experience. The notion can be summed up in the difference between the Earth feeling so stable and unmoving yet being in complex spinning motion through the Cosmos. From Copernicus to Einstein we see the understanding that the math and the physics goes with a wildly moving earth, but if you read them closely, they (and the great astronomers and physicists in between them) just couldn't quite manage to believe it in their bones. Being able to accept that what is real is not what we experience with our senses is the portal to the occult and a necessary preliminary to understanding reality. Frank ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 06:10:42 EST From: Autorbis@aol.com Subject: HEX8: Zero Juschkewitz, "Mathematik im Mittelalter", 1964, notes, that in the Babylonian mathematic the Zero appears around 500 BC, but wasn't used very often. He explains that, that there is rather seldom use foir it in a sexigesimal-system (there are only 16 numbers between 1-1000, which does need a zero). Also he explains, that the astronoms of Alexandria also had a zero in the form of a small circle with a special beside it (he notes Ptolomaios-fragments). Also he notes the zero-notation with a point. Lothar ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 07:03:50 EST From: Autorbis@aol.com Subject: Re: HEX8: Re: zero and geometry Hi Frank, << Zero is part of math systems involving places, that is bases on a power series. Binary math is the simplest of such systems, it having only the zero to represent the place holding and one for number. Geometry has nothing to do with representing numbers by a power series and the Geometrical number patterns, such as the dot-patterns on dice or the lines in hexagrams have no connection to modern math or zero. ### Counting and measuring the length of something work on the same field, that is with numbers or a system, which gives information about differences between the counted and measured objects. As "Zero" can be also the length of something, it's actually also part of geometry, and especially of special worth in a coordinating-system, which in its common form is the "dice" or better "cube if space". The idea of "nothingness" in the use of philosophy one shouldn't neglect as proof of "Zero"-conscious, especially as these early "wise men" didn't care to differentiate in a sharp way between mathematical and philosophical reflection. The best example for this is obviously Pythagoras, who is called to invent the term "mathematikos" as an honourable title for his pupils. snip .. A few years back I saw an article on the Internet claiming Leibnitz must have been wrong to see binary math in the I Ching since binary math is part of computers and the ancient Chinese were an agricultural people unable to manage such sophisticated machinery. The fact that computers are mechanical and use binary math as the simplest system that requires no ability to recognize digits apparently was beyond that author's understanding. ### The I-Ching is no use of binary mathematic in the sense, that the Chinese did use it for "adding" numbers. But actually it was used in older time, especially in weighing systyms (in India 1500 BC). Also it was used in volume-measuring systems (old Egyptia, the hekat or Horus-Eye). These technics probably was replaced in later times by decadic measurement. Leibniz' assumption, that he did invent the binary mathematic was a little blue-eyed. His recognition, that Fu-Hi invented the same, was also blue-eyed. One of the uses of the binary-code nowadays, the Ascey-code and the followers, which equal writing symbols with binary values has also early relatives (the Hebrew alphabet was also connected to an underlying binary scheme). There is a completely different epistemology in the Ancient world. Piaget did some work comparing the stages of science theory to the stages he found in children. In any event, it is not a matter of one mathematics ancient and modern, they are truly very different worlds. ### Actually it doesn't look so different to me :-) Greetings Lothar ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 07:03:52 EST From: Autorbis@aol.com Subject: Re: HEX8: Re: 13 lunar months << I spent awhile researching the Chinese calendar and T. McKenna's time wave which also sees 13 lunar months in the total number of lines in the I Ching. The problem is that the Chinese and others who use a 13th month to get a lunar calendar to fit with a solar year just don't see it as 13 months. It is a 12 month calendar with an extra month added to keep up with the solar year. ### Yes. But we tend to overlook, that "China" is a big space with rather different times in the last 3000 years (which is a lot of time) with many thinking and experimenting people. Assuming, that all these regions always followed "only" the same calendar idea, the same idea of astrology etc. looks a little naive to me. Indeed we find a lot of astrologies there in history (and in modern times), a lot of different divination technics and a lot of calendar experiments (and we have to assume, that the rediscovery of Chinese history is still at a low state). The same great variety of systems we see in Europe: there is not only one astrology, there have not been only one calendar in use, there is not only one divination technic. A 384-day- and 13th month counting system might have been there, somewhere ... not that it does change very much. Using symbolic patterns (like the I-Ching or the Zodiac or the 360°-circle) in the relation to another object (for instance the time of the year) is always a somewhat artificial way. It's simply a sort of time-measurement with an occasionally good "speaking" language (that means, that a scorpio in November gives an information about the "death of the sun" and symbolizes "bad weather" (in northern regions)). snip Greetings Lothar ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 12:50:49 From: steve@fortstudy.win-uk.net (Steve Moore) Subject: HEX8: Mathematics Hi all, I've only been skimming the recent discussions on 'mathematics'(by which I include arithmetic, geometry, etc., etc.), as I confess I'm not particularly enthralled by it ... especially as it seems to be moving ever further from the I Ching. But mathematics is, of course, a major part of Western mind's approach to the world. I'd see that Western mind as analytical, logical, linear and rationalizing. However, I think it should be pointed out that, traditionally, the Chinese didn't number the hexagrams. This is a product of Western scholarship on the I Ching: that samee analytical mind which, when confronted with 64 units of information, finds it easier to handle them by numbering them. If you look at a Chinese edition of the I Ching published before the 20th century, you'll find it orders the hexagrams simply by name: Ch'ien, K'un, and so on. If you come across a modern Chinese edition that numbers them (1. Ch'ien, 2. K'un, etc.), this is the result of Western influence. Free of this emphasis on number, the Chinese came up with a number of other sequences for the hexagrams which were based (for want of a better word) on "symbolic" considerations. Thus the Mawangdui manuscript sequence is based on the 'family' attributes of the trigrams; Ching Fang's Eight House sequence on progressive line-changes; and Shao Yung's 'Fu Hsi' hexagram sequence on yin-yang and trigram sequencing (and which doesn't, of course, reflect any innate knowledge of binary mathematics). While it may be fascinating to try to find some sort of algorithm in the current ('King Wen') hexagram sequence, it seems to me that before we start applying mathematical models, a number of questions should be asked; Is this Western mathematical approach actually applicable to the problem? Can it tell us anything about the Chinese mind-set responsible for the sequence, which may possibly work much more with "symbolic" rather than mathematical logic? In other words, are we trying to find something that isn't actually there? Or does it simply tell us about the Western analytical mind and the way it attempts to approach problems? All the best, Steve ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 10:55:10 -0300 From: "Ely Britto" Subject: HEX8: Tao & I Ching "The Tao is very close, but everyone looks far away. Life is very simple, but everyone seeks difficulty." --Taoist Sage, 200 B.C Hi friends My homepage is now available in English. It took six month of work. My son and I designed all the graphics that you will see there. Lots of animations and...the earth, the sun, the moon... The easy and the simple...the Tao....Chinese Thought and some modern computer recourses. Women can read an interesting article wrote with Dr. Paulo Canella professor of URFJ University in Rio (he is a doctor) about natural hormone replacement -*Menopause*. By the *Links* you can visit many homepages of the members of this list. Please visit it! www.healing-tao.com.br See you later, I will be out for three months far away from computers, so will unsubscribe. I will miss the l wise yin people of this list and the yang wise one also. :) Have a good time. Love Ely ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 11:05:56 -0300 From: "Ely Britto" Subject: Re: HEX8: Mathematics >Can it tell us anything about the Chinese mind-set responsible for >the sequence, which may possibly work much more with "symbolic" >rather than mathematical logic? In other words, are we trying to >find something that isn't actually there? > >Or does it simply tell us about the Western analytical mind and the >way it attempts to approach problems? > >All the best, >Steve Thanks Steve, ...in time Love Ely . ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 09:32:15 -0500 From: "Dr R. Butler" Subject: Re: HEX8: RE: Tetraktys An interesting discussion of Pythagoras. The following arrangement has also been important in the 8-ball system (two sticks are used to arrange the 15 spherical objects on a slate of six possible outcomes, the introduction of chance is of decreasing importance with the skill of the manipulation of the sticks, coincidently since we are on HEX8 :-) Rhett 0 0 0 0 8 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 ><< Just to clarify things for me, this is what I know as the > Tetraktys: > > 0 > 0 0 > 0 0 0 > 0 0 0 0 > >### Yes. The real meaning and background of the Tetraktys is hidden, as the >Pythogoreans had the idea to keep their secrets. >The first known biography of Pythagoras was written around 800 years after >his death inside a a philosophical development, which called itself >Neo-Pythagorism. >Pythagoras was already a mysterious figure in his lifetime (and later also). >A lot of his biography reminds a modern Indian Guru. > > From whence all the stuff like 1+2+3+4=10 is derived, yes? > >Yes. > > Marc. > P.S. has anyone else here studied Geomantic divination or Napoleons Oracle? > both of which seem remarkably similar to the I Ching. >> > >### Geomantic is in its basic structure very similar to I-Ching. Geomantic >works with a binary code with 4 bits (16 units), the I-Ching with a binary >code with 6 bits (64 units). >In medieval times Geomanty was used in context with astrological models, >which makes it technical rather different from I-Ching. >A description is found by Agrippa von Nettesheim. > >The Napoleon Oracle is based upon 32 units, which makes itt somewhat near to >I-Ching (64 units). I had once a short description of it, but I don't find it >:-) > >Lothar > > >===== >To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org >from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 09:48:58 -0500 From: "Power, Marc (ETS - Equity Development Support)" Subject: RE: HEX8: RE: Tetraktys LOL! :-) This list could definitely benefit from some humour! Nice one Rhett! - - Marc > -----Original Message----- > From: Dr R. Butler [SMTP:rbutler@iris.edu] > Sent: Thursday, March 23, 2000 9:32 AM > To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org > Subject: Re: HEX8: RE: Tetraktys > > An interesting discussion of Pythagoras. The following arrangement has > also > been important in the 8-ball system (two sticks are used to arrange the 15 > spherical objects on a slate of six possible outcomes, the introduction of > chance is of decreasing importance with the skill of the manipulation of > the sticks, coincidently since we are on HEX8 :-) > > Rhett > > > 0 > 0 0 > 0 8 0 > 0 0 0 0 > 0 0 0 0 0 > > > ><< Just to clarify things for me, this is what I know as the > > Tetraktys: > > > > 0 > > 0 0 > > 0 0 0 > > 0 0 0 0 > > > >### Yes. The real meaning and background of the Tetraktys is hidden, as > the > >Pythogoreans had the idea to keep their secrets. > >The first known biography of Pythagoras was written around 800 years > after > >his death inside a a philosophical development, which called itself > >Neo-Pythagorism. > >Pythagoras was already a mysterious figure in his lifetime (and later > also). > >A lot of his biography reminds a modern Indian Guru. > > > > From whence all the stuff like 1+2+3+4=10 is derived, yes? > > > >Yes. > > > > Marc. > > P.S. has anyone else here studied Geomantic divination or Napoleons > Oracle? > > both of which seem remarkably similar to the I Ching. >> > > > >### Geomantic is in its basic structure very similar to I-Ching. > Geomantic > >works with a binary code with 4 bits (16 units), the I-Ching with a > binary > >code with 6 bits (64 units). > >In medieval times Geomanty was used in context with astrological models, > >which makes it technical rather different from I-Ching. > >A description is found by Agrippa von Nettesheim. > > > >The Napoleon Oracle is based upon 32 units, which makes itt somewhat near > to > >I-Ching (64 units). I had once a short description of it, but I don't > find it > >:-) > > > >Lothar > > > > > >===== > >To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to > majordomo@apocalypse.org > >from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. > > > > > > ===== > To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org > from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 13:12:19 EST From: FKegan@aol.com Subject: Re: HEX8: Re: 13 lunar months Hi Lothar, To compare Chinese systems with European experience is always a bit difficult. Jared Diamond has some delightful work on geography as a major context of culture. The question of 12 or 13 months in a year has more to do with traditional orderliness and modern interest in precision. 12 is a delightfully divisible number, 13 is prime. You could only care about a 13 month system if it was most important to fit your data to celestial observations. This is a modern Western thing based in the theology of Newton and his physics. The correspondence is intriguing, though it hinges upon the modern equation for the days of the year as 28 * 13 = 52 * 7, but of course neither of them equals 365.25. The number of lines in the I Ching is given by the possible combinations of a 6 place system using 2 possible marks in each place or 2 ^ 6. That same schema means that there will be 64 * 6 total lines. Getting from 364 and 384 and 365.25 to some meeting of the systems requires a bit of special tinkering. The connection between zodiac and seasons of the year and I Ching is somewhat different. They run upon the rule that all circles are similar and thus everything that can be symbolized as a cycle and thus a circle can be analyzed geometrically. Scorpio is a reference to Greek Mythology that comes after its being the 8th of 12 divisions of a circle. Zero and nothingness is an especially metaphysical concept. Neither has much place is classical geometry where magnitude begins with the unit only. I would like to hear about the binary schema behind the Hebrew alphabet, it always seemed to be based in sequence. Perhaps you sum things up best in your remarks "### Actually it doesn't look so different to me :-) " We each make our own decision of what we notice and what we care about. Clearly you and I have made very different choices. I hope yours brings you as much fulfillment as mine brings me. Frank ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 13:12:17 EST From: FKegan@aol.com Subject: Re: HEX8: Mathematics Hi Steve, Lumping geometry, arithmetic (modern and ancient) and everything else into the stinky bag of Western linear analytics certainly simplifies rejection, but like most such conveniences only serves to separate what is already familiar from everything else. The sequence of the hexagrams is founded on current convenience of explicitly numbering, but on the traditional commentary of the Imperial Edition of 1716 (the Wilhelm/Baynes is a reasonable mainstream translation based upon it) which notes the division of the whole in halves and into sets of 10. The further analysis by geometrical construction can be associated to the compass and straight edge construction of the Tai Chi (Yin/Yang Symbol). The compass and straight edge is an ancient Greek system yet the principles of constructing symbol systems by the ancient techniques gets one over the fundamental hurdle of seeing things through medieval (or modern millennium) eyes. There are many ways to organize the hexagrams, most of the sets of 8 are simplifications for ease in memorizing or the like for students. It is another modern conceit to assume that whatever is written is meant literally and exactly as the reader understands it. There is always the question looming: Does this interpretation I see reflect only my mindset today or is this truly some of what was actually intended or constructed into this system originally or at least fundamentally. It would perhaps be better to start off with your own positive statement of what seems interesting and important about the I Ching as your complaints about mathematics as a modern western artifact seem not to allow for others to have any awareness of distinctions in ancient and cross-cultural symbol systems, and therefore there isn't much to discuss across that gulf. Frank ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 12:49:36 -0800 From: "dlesper or cathbell" Subject: HEX8: Correspondences Hi Frank, I read your previous post about geometric mysticism, and found it very interesting indeed! It helped crystalize some thoughts I've been mulling over for some time. I've been reading about theoretical mathematics (ala Bourbaki) and found that the histories of math to be far more interesting, especially what the Babylonians and early Greeks were doing. You post helped give some insight into the mystical origins of mathematics and some more stuff to mull over. Thanks. But my comment was on the 4 and 5 point elemental systems. A few years ago I witnessed a ritual that, it is said, to have come from the Order of the Golden Dawn (which I believe Crowley was instrumentally involved). They made introductions to the four elemental corners, then a fifth skyward, to the spirit. Having thought about it now, I'm not sure if their 5th element could be considered a "real" element; or that of an "over-element" or recognition of nothingness (in the taoist sense). In either case it appears to be quadrantal, and so, geometrically, is the same - with an implicit centre. Most Chinese elemental system diagrams I've seen, however, have the 5 elements laid out in a circle. Moreover, I don't see any symbolic correspondences between the two. Anyone successful in resolving the two? Anyway I've looked at it, the symbols always seems to be forced somehow. ...perhaps a product of the two, a base 20 elemetal system, with dichotomies of tetraktys... hmmmm... Regards, Darren >Hi Marc, > I have see the Crowley connections with the I Ching. He is a good >illustration of what difficulties one can get into confusing what appeals to >us personally with what is actually objectively a correspondence. > That is always the great question, is it a correspondence based solely >in my own imagination or does this correspondence arise from the fundamental >structure and nature of the system. > What I appreciate about the geometrical grounding is that that is a >universal and objective symbol system which gives far greater confidence that >it actually is connected to the essence of the I Ching. > If you look at the diagrams of the 5 element system in the Yi, you >find them laid out as four elements around a central one. There wouldn't so >much be a correspondence between one set of 4 elements laid out on a square >and a system of five elements laid out on the four sides of a square and the >center as there would just be the realization that astrology is based on the >geometry of the perpendicular bisector and so the center is implicit already. >Chinese systems don't use perpendiculars, so the center remains an >independent point to be given its own element. >Cheers, >Frank ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 19:26:31 EST From: Autorbis@aol.com Subject: Re: HEX8: Mathematics Hi Steve, << However, I think it should be pointed out that, traditionally, the Chinese didn't number the hexagrams. This is a product of Western scholarship on the I Ching: that samee analytical mind which, when confronted with 64 units of information, finds it easier to handle them by numbering them. If you look at a Chinese edition of the I Ching published before the 20th century, you'll find it orders the hexagrams simply by name: Ch'ien, K'un, and so on. If you come across a modern Chinese edition that numbers them (1. Ch'ien, 2. K'un, etc.), this is the result of Western influence. >> ### This is a rather new (and revolutionary) viewing point to me. I always thought, that the numerology of I-Ching, as given by Richard Wilhelm, had some age. Can anyone contribute to this question? Lothar ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 21:06:59 EST From: Autorbis@aol.com Subject: Re: HEX8: Re: 13 lunar months Hi Frank, I do enjoy our exchange about parallels between I-Ching and systems of others cultures, as unluckily not too many people have found their way into this field of interests, which, after all, I think most interesting. << Hi Lothar, To compare Chinese systems with European experience is always a bit difficult. Jared Diamond has some delightful work on geography as a major context of culture. ### I agree, that the complete different geography of China and Europe created a major difference in the cultural development. The geography of Italia, Greek, Creta, Phoenicia and Egyptia produced - naturally - plurality and individuality, the geography of China was ideal to build a big imperium with some uniform looking appearances. Probably according this condition one has to expect more different calendars in Europe than in China, just as an example. ## The question of 12 or 13 months in a year has more to do with traditional orderliness and modern interest in precision. 12 is a delightfully divisible number, 13 is prime. ### I think, the first time-measuring of mankind was always related to the moon, as its change is just simpler to see (and to count) than the change of the sun. So naturally always and everywhere moon-calenders were created. When some intellectuals came up with the idea, that monthes-counting doesn't correlate with the run of the sun in a totally precise way, the light of this understanding couldn't reach any culture in a quick way (internet and telephone didn't exist). There was a fight between tradition (moon) and modern thinking (sun), which still isn't decided (even in our most modern world we've a moon-reminiscence with the church-calendar, which places eastern after the rule of the moon). So it came to a constantly mixed appearance of moon- and sun-calendars allover the world. Naturally 12 monthes (instead of 13th) were chosen because its better mathematical properties (only the Mayas show a somewhat strange 13-engagement).## You could only care about a 13 month system if it was most important to fit your data to celestial observations. This is a modern Western thing based in the theology of Newton and his physics. The correspondence is intriguing, though it hinges upon the modern equation for the days of the year as 28 * 13 = 52 * 7, but of course neither of them equals 365.25. ### Calendar-experiments with the number 28 (moon-house-system) are rather common in history. Much older than Newton. ### The number of lines in the I Ching is given by the possible combinations of a 6 place system using 2 possible marks in each place or 2 ^ 6. That same schema means that there will be 64 * 6 total lines. Getting from 364 and 384 and 365.25 to some meeting of the systems requires a bit of special tinkering. The connection between zodiac and seasons of the year and I Ching is somewhat different. They run upon the rule that all circles are similar and thus everything that can be symbolized as a cycle and thus a circle can be analyzed geometrically. Scorpio is a reference to Greek Mythology that comes after its being the 8th of 12 divisions of a circle. Zero and nothingness is an especially metaphysical concept. Neither has much place is classical geometry where magnitude begins with the unit only. I would like to hear about the binary schema behind the Hebrew alphabet, it always seemed to be based in sequence. ### Well, that's a long story. I try a short version. If you demand more information, you've to request it. I could tell long stories about it :-) The Sepher Yetzirah is a small text of about + - 2nd century AD with an unknown author. In history it became a much commented text and by this way a basic source of Kabbala. (A version of it is reviewable at the page of Charlie Higgins http://www.mension.com (I hope I'm right with this address)). This text makes a statement: "God created the world by 32 ways of wisdom". The 32 ways are the 22 letters of the Hebrew Alphabeth and the numbers from 1-10 (in a somewhat more complex understanding of the term "numbers" as usual). Then the system of the 32 ways are explained. In the explanation it becomes clear, that the 32 ways are sorted in subgroups (12 simple letters + 7 double letters + 3 mother-letters and 1 special Sephira + 3 Sephiroth related to elements + 6 directions of space): 32 = 22 + 10 22 + 10 = (12 + 7 + 3) + (1+ 3 + 6) (12 + 7 + 3) + (1+ 3 + 6) = (12 + (6+1) + 3) + (1 + 3 + 6) This formula is also reachable in a logical, nice and elegant way in the structure of the 64 hexagrams of I-Ching, that means, in the binary code with 6 bits. I could show the way in many details, but this only the short version :-) The "accident" of this similarity between "teachings of Sepher Yetzirah" and "teaching of I-Ching" leads to "my" conclusion, that both systems are based on the same mathematical structure, so that the "accident" doesn't look like an accident, both as a natural result of the underlying identical system. Some arguments - the author of Sepher Yetzirah couldn't have invented the alphabet with 22 letters and the 10 finger at two hands, some other comparable mythological facts - lead to the conclusion, that a connection between alphabet and binary code with 6 bit was already intended in the first appearance of the alphabet (eventually around 1500 BC; the alphabet was structured according to an already existing memory system, which used the binary code). Therefore: The author of SY was not the originator of the system, probably he only modernized the idea by mixing some astrological (and other) data into the pool. The actual philosophical object of the SY is - btw - in a special way the dice or better "the cube of space", an object rather similar to that, what you assume to be a main object of the Pythagoras-teachings.## Perhaps you sum things up best in your remarks "### Actually it doesn't look so different to me :-) " We each make our own decision of what we notice and what we care about. Clearly you and I have made very different choices. I hope yours brings you as much fulfillment as mine brings me. #### Different decisions are the natural and necessary base for some individualty. Actually I do see more similarities between your choice and mine as our basic idea looks a little identical. The ways are different of course. There are always differences, of course :-) Probably I add more to the differences with my unperfect English as necessary. You do the same with your complicated choice of words btw :-). But I still learn (I hope so). Lothar ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 23:51:37 EST From: FKegan@aol.com Subject: HEX8: Re: Binary Math origin of I Ching and Hebrew Hi Lothar, Thanks for the quick explanation of your binary basis for the Hebrew alphabet. I suspect there is some fundamental binary limits in our nerve synapse mechanism which makes 1,3,7 particularly comforting to our minds. Solar calendars connect to the seasons. The Chinese and Hebrew lunar calendars needed to be adjusted to the solar year so that the holidays would work out right with the crops and flocks. Lunar cycles have always had a strong emotional appeal to humans, the waxing and waning light at night is pretty tough not to count. Frank ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2000 00:04:12 EST From: FKegan@aol.com Subject: Re: HEX8: Correspondences Hi Darren, I'm glad my comments were useful for you. Ancient geometry and its connection to symbolism is remarkably concrete and yet marvelously insightful. I''ve seen diagrams, I think in Wilhelm of the 5 elements as the 4 cardinal directions and the 5th at center. Crowley was a major player in the Golden Dawn and I suspect his interest in a 5-based system would relate to the Pentagram, that is the geometrical construction of an inscribed pentagon which connects to the infinite. If you connect the vertices you get a star with a smaller pentagon inside and so if you keep that up indefinitely you reach the infinite. It is also a technically difficult construction to do, so the notion grew up that being able to do such would make you master of the infinite. A truly 5 based system only seems likely if you are inscribing various sided figures, like the Greeks did and thus came to Pi as the result of inscribing a figure of infinite sides. The Chinese don't use perpendicular bisectors much, so their 5 systems are easier to think of as 4 with the center being highlighted. If you look for Chinese symbols that explicitly focus upon the center they are rare. Where is the center of an I Ching Hexagram? It would be between line 3 and line 4. The center of the Tai Ch'i (Yin/Yang symbol) is implicit and everything is painted to put the focus elsewhere. Frank ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2000 07:01:05 EST From: Autorbis@aol.com Subject: HEX8: First note about existence of numerology ? Hi Frank and all, << The sequence of the hexagrams is founded on current convenience of explicitly numbering, but on the traditional commentary of the Imperial Edition of 1716 (the Wilhelm/Baynes is a reasonable mainstream translation based upon it) which notes the division of the whole in halves and into sets of 10. >> "The edition of 1716 notes the division of the whole in halves and into sets of 10". Could you tell a litlle more about it? Is there no earlier date for the existence of the I-Ching numerology used in the Wilhelm/Baynes edition? Lothar ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2000 07:01:03 EST From: Autorbis@aol.com Subject: Re: HEX8: Re: Binary Math origin of I Ching and Hebrew << Hi Lothar, Thanks for the quick explanation of your binary basis for the Hebrew alphabet. I suspect there is some fundamental binary limits in our nerve synapse mechanism which makes 1,3,7 particularly comforting to our minds. ### ? 1-3-6 instead of 1-3-7? Writing error? 1-3-6 is just the cube or the "cube of space", in mathematic the three dimensional "Koordinaten-System" (in English "3-dimensional matrix" ?): 1 is the center, 3 are the 3 dimensions of space, and 6 are the six directions from the central point: above-below, north - south, east - west or above-below, front - back, left - right. This might be also pleasant to our nerve system, but it is also a simple and very natural condition without too much mystery. ### ## In the I-Ching you find this formula mirrored in "1 center, 3 lines of the trigram and 6 lines of a hexagram". At one of the lower planes of I-Ching, that one, which is equal to the "32 ways of wisdom" in the Sepher-Yetzirah-system, you find the same formula 1-3-6 twice: A. in the Hebrew system these are "double letters (1+6) + mother letters (3)" 1: hex-pairs 1+2 3: hex-pairs 51 + 57, 29 + 30, 52 + 58 6: hex-pairs 24 + 44, 7 + 13, 15 + 10, 16 + 9, 8 + 14, 23 + 43 B. in the Hebrew system these are the numbers or "Sephiroth", one special Sephira (1), 3 Sephiroth connected to elements (3), 6 directions of space (6). 1: hex-pairs 63 + 64 3: hex-pairs 11 + 12, 32 + 42, 31 + 41 6: hex-pairs 22 + 47, 54 + 53, 48 + 21, 56 + 60, 17 + 18, 59 + 55 Until now these are 20 of the 32 pairs (= ways of wisdom), formed of 32 complementary hexagram-pairs inside the I-Ching. One group is still missing, in the Hebrew system they are called the 12 simple letters, which are seen there as an equation to the astrological zodiac. In the I-Ching this group builds (also) a natural cycle (as the zodiac does): 12: 19-33, 36-6, 46-25, 40-37, 62-61, 39-38, > > 45-26, 35-5, 20-34, 3-50, 27-28, 4-49 ... 19, 33 (cycling) I don't know, how good you know the hexagrams by heart. If you have trouble to understand the reasons of this sorting, you should perhaps "translate" the I-Ching numbers by painting the hexagrams, then it should become obvious. ### ### It might be interesting for you to see, that the possible results of throws with two dices look like a sub-system of this "32-way-structure" (because of natural mathematical conditions, which are easy to explore, if you did understand the system): There are 21 possible results: 6 of 7 double letters (equating dice results): 1 + 1 2 + 2 3 + 3 4 + 4 5 + 5 6 + 6 3 mother letters: 1 + 4 2 + 5 3 + 6 12 simple letters (in cycling form): 1 + 2 1 + 3 2 + 3 2 + 4 3 + 4 3 + 5 4 + 5 4 + 6 5 + 6 5 + 1 6 + 1 6 + 2 ... 1 + 2 (cycling) ### Solar calendars connect to the seasons. The Chinese and Hebrew lunar calendars needed to be adjusted to the solar year so that the holidays would work out right with the crops and flocks. Lunar cycles have always had a strong emotional appeal to humans, the waxing and waning light at night is pretty tough not to count. ### In a world without electricity, a new or full moon naturally plays a great role, much greater, than we can guess nowadays with the comfort of electric light. Greetings Lothar ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ End of hexagram-8-digest V1 #166 ******************************** From owner-hexagram-8-digest@apocalypse.org Sun Mar 26 08:38:40 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA20612 for hexagram-8-digest-outgoing; Sun, 26 Mar 2000 08:38:40 -0500 Date: Sun, 26 Mar 2000 08:38:40 -0500 Message-Id: <200003261338.IAA20612@apocalypse.org> X-Authentication-Warning: apocalypse.org: majordom set sender to owner-hexagram-8-digest@apocalypse.org using -f From: owner-hexagram-8-digest@apocalypse.org (hexagram-8-digest) To: hexagram-8-digest@apocalypse.org Subject: hexagram-8-digest V1 #167 Reply-To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Sender: owner-hexagram-8-digest@apocalypse.org Errors-To: owner-hexagram-8-digest@apocalypse.org Precedence: bulk hexagram-8-digest Sunday, March 26 2000 Volume 01 : Number 167 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2000 09:19:56 -0300 From: "Jorge" Subject: HEX8: Mathematics This is a multi-part message in MIME format. - ------=_NextPart_000_00C7_01BF9572.1ED8D380 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi all I founded a very nice figure representing the hexagram's order in = 'Hexagrames' #5 magazine. Unfortunatelly, the server of this list will = not allow me to send a reproduction of the page or even to try to put = some graphic information in this email. So, please, I urge you :-)) to = make some homework drawing the hexagrams sequence. It will be easy, not = number theory, not esoterical numerology, not hermetic information, just = paper and pencil. The hexagrams should be drawn as follows: 01 02 03 05 07 09 11 13 15 17 19 21 23 25 27 28 29 30 04 06 08 10 12 14 16 18 20 22 24 26 =20 31 33 35 37 39 41 43 45 47 49 51 53 55 57 59 61 62 63 32 34 36 38 40 42 44 46 48 50 52 54 56 58 60 = 64 This sequence takes in consideration that one hexagram is the invertion = of the prior one, so 31 - 32 should be drawn as one figure, to be readed = in both directions so both hexagrams are included in that same figure. = This, obviously is not applicable to symmetric hexagrams, like 28, so = they stay alone. Voila! we have the book divided in two equal parts of 18 figures each: = hexagrams 1 to 30 (total of 30) in Part One and hexagrams 31-64 (total = of 34) in Part Two. I think that this arrangement leads us to explain the sequence by the = MEANINGS of the hexagrams and not by any numerological theory, that I'm = not so sure will be understood by the ancient sages (oops!! sorry), by = the people that structured the book.=20 Maybe the principal consideration behind dividing the book in two was = saving paper or even lazyness ;-))) Any comments? Tchau Jorge Vulibrun Florianopolis, Brasil jorgevul@newsite.com.br - ------=_NextPart_000_00C7_01BF9572.1ED8D380 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi all
 
I founded a very nice figure = representing the=20 hexagram's order in 'Hexagrames' #5 magazine. Unfortunatelly, the server = of this=20 list will not allow me to send a reproduction of the page or even to try = to put=20 some graphic information in this email. So, please, I urge you :-)) to = make some=20 homework drawing the hexagrams sequence. It will be easy, not number = theory, not=20 esoterical numerology, not hermetic information, just paper and=20 pencil.
 
The hexagrams should be drawn as=20 follows:
 
01  02  03  05  = 07 =20 09  11  13  15  17  19  21  23  = 25 =20 27  28  29  30
          &nbs= p; =20 04  06  08  10  12  14  16  18  = 20 =20 22  24  26 
 
31  33  35  37  39   = 41 =20 43  45  47  49  51  53  55  57  = 59 =20 61  62  63
32  34  36  38  40   = 42 =20 44  46  48  50  52  54  56  58 =20 60            = ;  =20 64
 
This sequence takes in consideration that one = hexagram is the=20 invertion of the prior one, so 31 - 32 should be drawn as one figure, to = be=20 readed in both directions so both hexagrams are included in that same = figure.=20 This, obviously is not applicable to symmetric hexagrams, like 28, so = they stay=20 alone.
 
Voila! we have the book divided in two equal parts = of 18=20 figures each: hexagrams 1 to 30 (total of 30) in Part One and hexagrams = 31-64=20 (total of 34) in Part Two.
 
I think that this arrangement leads = us to=20 explain the sequence by the MEANINGS of the hexagrams and not by any=20 numerological theory, that I'm not so sure will be understood by the = ancient=20 sages (oops!! sorry), by the people that structured the book. =
 
Maybe the principal consideration = behind=20 dividing the book in two was saving paper or even lazyness =20 ;-)))
 
Any comments?
 
Tchau
 
Jorge Vulibrun
Florianopolis, = Brasil
jorgevul@newsite.com.br
- ------=_NextPart_000_00C7_01BF9572.1ED8D380-- ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2000 13:34:32 From: steve@fortstudy.win-uk.net (Steve Moore) Subject: Re: HEX8: Mathematics Hi Frank, > Lumping geometry, arithmetic (modern and ancient) and everything else >into the stinky bag of Western linear analytics certainly simplifies >rejection, but like most such conveniences only serves to separate what is >already familiar from everything else. My apologies. I didn't intend to appear hostile or rejective. I was simplifying for the sake of brevity, indicating generally the group of posts I was referring to, and using "mathematics" as shorthand way of referring to an approach which I wished to differentiate from the other one, which I called "symbolic" (and which I know is also far from perfect ... but I was in a hurry). > The sequence of the hexagrams is founded on current convenience of >explicitly numbering, I'm sorry. I don't understand what you mean here, if there is no explicit numbering in traditional editions. > The further analysis by geometrical construction can be associated to >the compass and straight edge construction of the Tai Chi (Yin/Yang Symbol). Forgive me if I seem stupid, but as the Tai Chi (Ying/Yang) symbol doesn't appear to have originated before the 10th century AD, I'm uncertain as to how this has any applicability to analysing an I Ching sequence which came into being between one and two millennia before then. > There are many ways to organize the hexagrams, most of the sets of 8 >are simplifications for ease in memorizing or the like for students. I'm afraid I find the notion that the other sequences of hexagrams are merely mnemonics rather an over-simplification, which ignores their structural, symbolic and cosmological aspects. Ching Fang's Eight House system is hardly easy to remember, and Shao Yung's Fu Xi sequence represents an entire cosmological viewpoint (it's hardly coincidental that the book in which it first appeared was called "Supreme Principles that Govern the World") > It would perhaps be better to start off with your own positive >statement of what seems interesting and important about the I Ching as your >complaints about mathematics as a modern western artifact seem not to allow >for others to have any awareness of distinctions in ancient and >cross-cultural symbol systems, and therefore there isn't much to discuss >across that gulf. Since you ask, my interests are the history of the I Ching, and more particularly Han dynasty cosmology and its application to the various trigram sequences, a subject I explored in my 1989 book, 'The Trigrams of Han'. I also edit 'The Oracle - The Journal of Yijing Studies'. Please understand that I neither wish to provoke your hostility, nor would I suggest that anyone "stop talking mathematically". My point was that all of us on this list have been brought up and taught how to think in a western paradigm, which is essentially analytical, linear and cause-and-effect based, and of which mathematical analysis is an important item in the tool-kit. I merely wished to point out the possibility that some of us may forget that other cultures, historically and geographically, use different paradigms: the ancient Chinese paradigm, for example is much less based on linear cause-and-effect than correlative patterning. When we have three other methods of sequencing the hexagrams which are explicable in terms of that Chinese paradigm, and which aren't mathematically based ... then when we turn to a fourth sequence which is otherwise unexplained, it seems much more likely to me that the structure (assuming there is one; which may be an assumption we make because our western way of thinking demands that such things have explicable structures) has a greater likelihood of deriving from a similar non-mathematical Chinese paradigm, rather than from numerical/mathematical considerations. Unless we've fully explored, understood and exhausted the Chinese paradigm, then it seems to me that it's rather putting the cart before the horse to start applying exterior methods such as Pythagorean numerology. After all, when the earliest Chinese arithmentic we know of (counting-rod numerals) is based on the number five, rather than ten, why should ten-based Pythagorean numerology be applicable? Finally, changing the subject slightly to cross-reference one of your other posts, I'm completely baffled by your statement that "If you look for Chinese symbols that explicitly focus upon the center they are rare." Centrality, and the centre, is absolutely crucial to early Chinese cosmology. Schuyler Cammann dealt with this subject at some length in his early articles on Chinese magic squares ... the magic square of three (undoubtedly the most important numerically-based symbol in Chinese cosmology, and of possibly even greater importance than the tetraktys is to Greek cosmology) with its emphasis on the central number 5, is the most important example of this. Needham, in 'Science and Civilisation in China', also has much discussion of the concept of centrality, particularly in the sections on Chinese mathematics, geography and cosmology. The fact that China is called the Middle (Central) Kingdom isn't coincidence ... centrality is that important. Hoping that nothing here will give offence. It certainly isn't intended to. All the best, Steve ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2000 10:54:05 -0500 From: "Power, Marc (ETS - Equity Development Support)" Subject: RE: HEX8: Correspondences > -----Original Message----- > From: FKegan@aol.com [SMTP:FKegan@aol.com] > Sent: Friday, March 24, 2000 12:04 AM > To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org > Subject: Re: HEX8: Correspondences > > Hi Darren, > I'm glad my comments were useful for you. Ancient geometry and its > connection to symbolism is remarkably concrete and yet marvelously > insightful. > I''ve seen diagrams, I think in Wilhelm of the 5 elements as the 4 > cardinal directions and the 5th at center. Crowley was a major player in > the > Golden Dawn and I suspect his interest in a 5-based system would relate to > > the Pentagram, that is the geometrical construction of an inscribed > pentagon > which connects to the infinite. If you connect the vertices you get a star > > with a smaller pentagon inside and so if you keep that up indefinitely you > > reach the infinite. It is also a technically difficult construction to do, > so > the notion grew up that being able to do such would make you master of the > > infinite. > The Pentagram and Hexagram (Star type, not Yi King) and some other key figures of Geometry (such as the circle) were used as Sacred Sigils and emblems for their Astrological properties, not their geometric ones. Though this is an initiated tradition and not generally known, though I am sure that Crowley was aware of it. Cheers! Marc. ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2000 11:56:41 -0800 From: Ray Langley Subject: HEX8: Chinese Calendar(s), was: 13 lunar months > The question of 12 or 13 months in a year has more to do > with traditional orderliness and modern interest in precision. 12 is a > delightfully divisible number, 13 is prime. > > ### I think, the first time-measuring of mankind was always related to the > moon, as its change is just simpler to see (and to count) than the change of > the sun. So naturally always and everywhere moon-calenders were created. When > some intellectuals came up with the idea, that monthes-counting doesn't > correlate with the run of the sun in a totally precise way, the light of this > understanding couldn't reach any culture in a quick way (internet and > telephone didn't exist). There was a fight between tradition (moon) and > modern thinking (sun), which still isn't decided (even in our most modern > world we've a moon-reminiscence with the church-calendar, which places > eastern after the rule of the moon). > So it came to a constantly mixed appearance of moon- and sun-calendars > allover the world. > Naturally 12 monthes (instead of 13th) were chosen because its better > mathematical properties (only the Mayas show a somewhat strange > 13-engagement).## > Lothar Hi Lothar, if we include our Western calendar, the Chinese now use three different calendar systems: In the Qing Dynasty, 1741, the first edition was called the "Wan Nian Li". This is a word-for-word translation, meaning 10,000 Year Calendar. Each edition of the "Wan Nian Li" contains somewhat less than 10,000 years. My book shows the years from 1882 - 2031. The Qing Government also issued a yearly edition to correct the inaccurate calculations in the "Wan Nian Li". In 1912, a new government formed, and announced that it was choosing the Gregorian calendar as the standard calendar. At this time, the government issued a new calendar book which it called the People's Republic of China Calendar Book. It still recorded the Chinese Lunar Calendar. After 1953, the Government in mainland China proclaimed that all calendar publishing must conform to the rules set by the calculations of the Purple Mountain Observatory because there were two editions of the calendar in mainland China during that period. One of these two versions said that the 6th lunar month was a "small month" and that the 7th lunar month was a "big month". The other stated just the opposite. Also, in 1989, the Purple Mountain Observatory calculated that the 6th lunar month was a "big month" (30 days), and that month 7 was a "small month" (29 days). But, the Taiwanese edition of the calendar said that the 6th month was small and that the 7th was big. So, be aware that there may be some differences between calendars that are published in mainland China and Taiwan. In olden times, the ancient astronomers devised a very clever method to combine the Chinese Lunar and Solar calendars into a single system. This system is called the 10,000 Year Calendar. The Solar New Year is always on either Feb. 4 or Feb. 5. This date is known as "Li Chun", or Spring Begins. Since the *Lunar New Year* did not begin until Feb 16, 1999, Li Chun occurred in the 12 Lunar Month of *1998*. So, it is not shown on the pages of the 1999 calendar. The first Lunar Month of 1999 runs from 2/16 to 3/17. The first Solar Month of 1999 runs from 2/04 to 3/05. The second Lunar Month of 1999 runs from 3/18 to 4/15. The second Solar Month of 1999 runs from 3/06 to 4/04. The Solar Calendar has 12 months. The Lunar Calendar usually has 12 months, but some years it has a 13th month (leap month). - -- Warmest Regards, Ray Have Luo Pan, Will Travel! ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2000 19:13:18 -0600 From: omei shan Subject: RE: HEX8: A Chi Kung exercise >Israel Regardie, Aleister Crowley and Dion Fortune (Violet Firth >Evans) got it from the Golden Dawn, the turn of the century >mystical society that included many victorian luminaries. > Sorry - I'm not familiar with Dion Fortune - BUT - Yes - Aleister Crowley, Sir Arthur Edward Waite, and a couple of others were members of that legendary but short-lived (1888-1903) Rosicrucian group known as the Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn. I didn't know Mr. Regardie was a member of the Order, although it is common knowledge that he was Crowley's protege. I also don't know whether Regardie had a protege, but Christoper Hyatt was a good friend of his who was privileged to be given much "inside information." If you're interested - Mr. Hyatt, along with Robert Anton Wilson and other luminaries can be contacted thru New Falcon Publications. (Personally, I think they founded that company for the sole purpose of publishing their books). I've always found them to be quite willing to communicate as often as their busy schedules allow. >I think that you can also get the details from the books by Israel >Regardie about the Golden Dawn. Look under 'Body of Light'. > >Or you can ask me questions about it. > I'd love to hear what you have to say about it! What do you think about the "Magical Child" Concept and exercises? I'm still trying to decide. Monica "Perspicuity is the hallmark of erudition" ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2000 19:18:50 -0600 From: omei shan Subject: Re: HEX8: RE: Tetraktys Marc - >Just to clarify things for me, this is what I know as the >Tetraktys: > > 0 > 0 0 > 0 0 0 > 0 0 0 0 > >From whence all the stuff like 1+2+3+4=10 is derived, yes? > Yes! How the Greeks loved their tetraktys! >P.S. has anyone else here studied Geomantic divination or Napoleons Oracle? I've studied a couple of forms of geomantic divination, and a oracle whom Napoleon used to consult (Mme. Lenormand). FYI - I've made quite a "hobby" of studying various oracles - Runes, I Ching, Ofa, various forms of divination by cards including Tarot and Lenormand - along with the social context within which they developed, evolved, and are used. I'm a Lifetime Certified Tarot Reader working towards "Master Tarot Reader" designation. >both of which seem remarkably similar to the I Ching. > > > >===== >To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org >from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. > ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2000 19:33:26 -0600 From: omei shan Subject: Re: HEX8: Re: Pythagoras and Universal number Lothar - >### Well, ciphers and numbers are not the same. It's true, that the Zero as a >used and practical cipher developed rather lately. But the "idea" of zero or >of "nothing" was older, even, when they were not aware of the practical use >for it. > Uh-oh! Don't confuse the use of a placeholder, used in mathematics, with "nothing," which is the concept of, well, nothingness, void. THE CONCEPT OF ZERO IS NOT EQUIVALENT TO THE CONCEPT OF NOTHINGNESS. >In systems, when letters are used for numbers, like in the Greek system, >which saw aleph = 1, iota 10, my = 40, omega = 800 etc. you naturally doesn't >need a zero, as M = 40 and I=10 and O=800, but you need a sign for 1000 (as >these letter-number-systems only work until 999). >Same with the Roman (MM = 2000) and the Hebrew system. >In other systems they did work with "place-holders", which did fulfill the >necessary function. That's not quite right, since the systems you mention are not place notation systems. A PLACEHOLDER SUCH AS ZERO IS ONLY NEEDED IN A PLACE NOTATION SYSTEM, WHETHER IT BE BINARY, OCTAL, HEXADECIMAL, ETC. >But this doesn't tell us, that they didn't reflect the idea of "nothing". > >Parmenides of Elea, writing around 480 BC (that's rather early), gives strong >advice, that one shouldn't reflect the "non-being" (from which one may >conclude, that others did like this reflections during his life-time), cause >it leads to nothing :-). > >The teachings of Buddha (also around that time) seem to present a model >around "nothingness". > >Even in mythology you meet ideas of "nothingness". > >Or here, Dschuang Dse: "The men in old time did lead their ackknowledgement >to a last point of existene. Where was this last point of existence? They >assumed a state, where existence of things hadn't started ....". Well, that's >the idea of nothingness. >I think, a rather common idea in old time. > >The non-existence of a mathemtical cipher for Zero doesn't prove, that there >was no reflection about Zero or nothingness or the idea, that a point has no >extensions. > See above re: trying to equate zero to nothingness. Don't confuse a placeholder with a concept! Now - if you're trying to say that in modern times, the uses of the number 0 have grown to include the concept of nothingness - well, why didn't you just say so? :) >### I think, a rather common idea in older time, not bery geniously. If you >you take a walk through the older mythologies .... you probably meet a lot of >things, which are rather similar. > Which ones? Studying ancient cultures and religions is a hobby of mine. Monica ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2000 19:39:33 -0600 From: omei shan Subject: Re: HEX8: Re: 13 lunar months >I spent awhile researching the Chinese calendar and T. McKenna's time >wave which also sees 13 lunar months in the total number of lines in the I >Ching. The problem is that the Chinese and others who use a 13th month to get >a lunar calendar to fit with a solar year just don't see it as 13 months. It >is a 12 month calendar with an extra month added to keep up with the solar >year. > Actually, lunar calendars are 12 month calendars, but place an intercalary (or "leap") month into the calendar approximately once every 19 months. Monica "Perspicuity is the hallmark of erudition" ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2000 19:41:57 -0600 From: omei shan Subject: Re: HEX8: Zero Lothar - >Juschkewitz, "Mathematik im Mittelalter", 1964, notes, that in the Babylonian >mathematic the Zero appears around 500 BC, but wasn't used very often. He >explains that, that there is rather seldom use foir it in a >sexigesimal-system (there are only 16 numbers between 1-1000, which does need >a zero). > The sexigesimal system is base 60, which the Babylonians broke into 6 periods of 10. The example you are using is hexadeciaml. Monica ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2000 19:53:30 -0600 From: omei shan Subject: Re: HEX8: Mathematics Hey, Steve - >While it may be fascinating to try to find some sort of algorithm >in the current ('King Wen') hexagram sequence, it seems to me that >before we start applying mathematical models, a number of >questions should be asked; > >Is this Western mathematical approach actually applicable to the problem? > Well - it depends. If Fu Hsi was trying to show relationships of the part to the whole - along with non-linear dynamics, some matrix mechanics, etc. - then my answer is yes. However, if one wants to use the I Ching as an oracle, then modern math probably won't cut it, since the patterns of solid and broken lines found within a hexagram invoke a certain imagery within the consultant. So - the answer sounds like the I Ching: Yes and no - it depends. :) Monica "Perspicuity is the hallmark of erudition" ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2000 20:10:31 -0600 From: omei shan Subject: RE: HEX8: Correspondences OK - Marc - I'll bite! One - What are the astrological proerties of the key figures. Two - What do you mean by "initiated tradition?" Monica >> > The Pentagram and Hexagram (Star type, not Yi King) and some other > key figures of Geometry (such as the circle) were used as Sacred >Sigils > and emblems for their Astrological properties, not their geometric >ones. > Though this is an initiated tradition and not generally known, >though > I am sure that Crowley was aware of it. > > Cheers! > > Marc. > > > >===== >To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org >from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. > ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2000 20:23:18 -0600 From: omei shan Subject: Re: HEX8: Chinese Calendar(s), was: 13 lunar months >> ### I think, the first time-measuring of mankind was always related to the >> moon, as its change is just simpler to see (and to count) than the change of >> the sun. >> Our word "month" derives from "moon". Monica ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Mar 2000 14:01:31 EST From: FKegan@aol.com Subject: HEX8: Re: Crowley, astrology and reality Hi Marc, I guess its a matter of who one takes as authority. I find the British in general and Crowley in particular a poor role model for much of anything. Their work tends to be both 'derivative' and provincial, but they did write in English. The notion that astrology is different from geometry requires an alchemical perspective. That is, chemistry and alchemy were intertwined when gold was mined by cupellation of lead, and the alchemical techniques were very sophisticated assay methods to bring an extra bit of the dissolved gold out of the lead. With Paracelsus, all the of the dreams of alchemy were made real chemistry. After that, alchemy developed as metaphysics and magic. Similarly with astrology. It is fundamentally the use of geometry to map timing and as such several millennia more sophisticated than Western physics. As you note Crowley and the Golden Dawn Crowd didn't understand astrology very well and took it to be exotic magic from the Orient and went off into their rituals and esoteric initiations and other fun stuff for their Victorian London lifestyle. As Golden Dawn magic, there is only the techniques and interpretations Crowley worked out for his version of the I Ching hexagrams. One of the advantages of looking at the I Ching in terms of its geometry is that such a perspective both makes the Chinese commentary comprehensible and also allows understanding horoscopes and hexagrams as similar and complementary systems. Both perspectives offer a sense of connection to spiritual figures, one connects with the Cosmos and the other with Victorian London. Frank ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Mar 2000 14:01:43 EST From: FKegan@aol.com Subject: HEX8: Re: hexagram pairs Hi Tchau, It is an intriguing pattern that each even number hexagram is the opposite of its preceding odd numbered hexagram, with those that are symmetrical, and therefore do not change when tumbled on their heads as it were being made opposite by exchanging the lines yin for yang. And this pattern plays out with the first pair of the Yi and the last two pairs of both the first and second half being those that are symmetrical. It also allows seeing the hexagrams as being established in sets of 12 lines, with 6 lines in one pattern and the next six a complementary one. It is even more intriguing to note that this also meshes with laying the hexagrams out in sequence by into 6 sets of 10 or into a circle of 360 lines within the 4 corners of the first and last pair. One of the wonders of ancient symbol systems is that they "work out" by an indefinite number of arrangements and explanations. None of which eliminates any of the others, they all just add together and complement each other. One of the interesting exercises is to try to explain why a particular pattern of lines would have the name that it does and the place in the sequence that it does within the rubric of these tumbled pairs bookended by hexagrams symmetrical about the mirror plane at their middle. The issue there is whether the names are essential or simply a way of expressing the pattern of lines or the place in the sequence. The result of 18 pairs in both halves although they have 30 and 34 hexagrams arises from the last pair being the total opposite of the first pair, so where 1 and 2 have only one kind of line, 63 and 64 exchange into each other by either turning them on their heads or reversing each line. Your final remarks rather baffle me. After laying out all these examples of how everything in the hexagrams is neatly arranged in pairs, you question whether dividing the book in half was "saving paper or laziness" which would suggest such pairing was of no intrinsic meaning. The notion of even, what can be made into a pair seems generally important in Chinese thought. The names for the even numbers in Chinese all reflect that they can be divided equally in half. The elegance of the patterns of the Yi are most delightful and they can be taken seriously or humorously as one wishes. Frank ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Mar 2000 14:01:41 EST From: FKegan@aol.com Subject: HEX8: Re: Ancient and modern, Chinese and Western Hi Steve, It is nice to meet you, I didn't catch from your post that you were Steve of the Oracle. Let me try to explain since we have each spent decades in this field and clearly our perspectives are quite distinct if not more. I don't make the same hard (linear Western perhaps?) distinction between mathematics and other symbolism. I also don't find it useful to worry about when a historical artifact gets discovered. Most of all traditional metaphysics was transmitted by an oral tradition and when folks got around to putting something down in a form for archeologists to find seems more a matter of museum catalogues than anything real. I come to that view from my research with an equatorial sun dial and then thinking of the old myths of the world being supported by 4 elephants upon the back of a tortoise. I realized what was being expressed was that the insight that the Earth was a globe tilted in space, but such a notion cannot be reconciled with simple perception. The tortoise is a pretty good way to express the celestial mechanics while avoiding the problem of the antipodes. Similarly, as it may well have taken many centuries for the Chinese to get around to painting Tai Ch'i symbols (it is a fundamentally compass and straight edge construction which is far more Western) that doesn't mean relate to the metaphysics expressed in other forms at earlier times. The hexagrams themselves are an ingenious way to express the symbolic dynamics of cycles being measured by the principle that a radius marks off the circumference into six equal chords. The characters for yin and yang express in their etymology the principles of gestalt, the pennant fluttering in the sunshine as focus, and the dark of the valley as background. To express all things in terms of set of possible gestalten of a symbolic circle marked to its 6 chords is truly a monumental insight. It can be seen as symbolism at its most sublime or as wonder of inscribed geometry. I am not clear what the difference is. The geometrical approach opens the way to using the techniques of traditional geometry for analysis. This I find has the advantage of allowing other systems to aid in the understanding of the meaning of the Chinese commentary and poetry. Since it is a long way from Ancient China to modern Internet, and my experience with historical research is that it tends to be looking through a glass illuminated more on this side, and thus more of a mirror than a window, I trust the geometry more than the translation of the poetry. The issue of the center which you find so baffling is probably a good example of difficulties with translation. My remarks arose from the lack of perpendicular bisectors in Chinese symbolism, unlike in Greek Geometry and through the Cartesian axes and Christian cross so much of Western thought. Thus the center is not an obvious focus and explicitly marking the center becomes available for the many examples you cite. The translation issue arises from what is "Middle," what is "central,' what is 'core' and what is 'hub' and the like. Like the Chinese character for middle in the name for China as middle Kingdom, it is a square with a stroke through it. An image like an arrow hitting the 'bull's eye'' or by extension the hub of a wheel. Both great images for China in Chinese eyes, but not for thinking of the center as the fixed point from which a radius forms a circle. The five in Chinese thought is like the quincunx or the 5-dot on the dice. As expressed best by quincunx, or 5 of 12 this isn't a big deal in Western symbolism. In China, explicitly marking out the 4 corners and the center is. From a geometric perspective it fits well with other Chinese metaphysics. At least this should be enough to note my perspective. I did not take your remarks as any intent to offend me, only an expression of your perspective which seemed to be as much reflecting Western bias as it tried to note finding such in others. One of the benefits of discussions such as this is the opportunity to have what seems so right and true to each of us processed by the very different perspectives which find our views alien for an entire spectrum of reasons. Regards, Frank ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Mar 2000 14:01:44 EST From: FKegan@aol.com Subject: HEX8: history and reality Hi Lothar, In the Wilhelm commentary for hexagrams 11, 31 and 41 are comments referring to the book being divided in half after hexagram 30 and their being sets of 10 which begin with 1, 11, etc. The Imperial Edition of 1716 was the official compilation of all the known earlier commentaries. I guess it is a personal choice whether to accept the one set of work intended to be the ultimate expression or to prefer to find the original usage on the grounds that primacy is somehow special. Personally, I suspect all symbolism is based upon the synapse structure of the brain and the resultant patterns of the mind. Therefore, what is first or more ancient since it all relates to the same basic wiring inside our heads is not of much importance. The hexagrams of the Yi are intriguing in this context since they make it possible to generate meaning from line value or synapse pattern without requiring a coding system such as Morse code or computer language. This would also explain your binary insights, as all symbols ultimately must relate to brain synapse patterns which in their simplest form are switches on or off, that is basic binary. I thought I read your list as 1-3-7 which is the Max number you can write in a one, two or 3 digit binary system. The 1-3- 6 is a Pythagorean set made of 1,2,3 dots in rows which make a triangle and if you take the sum of the total for each row you get 1,3,6 (and of course adding the next row of 4 you get the Tetraktys). I have no idea have that series is binary where 1, 3, 6 comes out 1, 11, 110. Frank ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 26 Mar 2000 10:41:24 -0300 From: "Jorge" Subject: Re: HEX8: Re: Sequence of character formation (it was: hexagram pairs) This is a multi-part message in MIME format. - ------=_NextPart_000_0100_01BF970F.D51B4120 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi all (this is not intended as being exclusively an answer to Frank's post; I = have a question to all menbers of the list)) Frank =20 Few days ago Lothar accused me of aproaching the Yi too seriously and = now you say that I'm taking the book 'humorously', obviously meaning = 'lightly'. It's very difficult to content everybody ;-)) =20 I assure you that I don't take the book lightly. Please notice that my = message' subject was 'mathematics' and my intention was to comment on = the approach of looking mathematically the Yi, mathematics not even = dreamed by the chinese that developed the book. For me this is a clear = imperialistic way of thinking (maybe THE most trully Western = characteristic). For me the neat division of the received text in two groups of 18 = figures, with 30 and 34 hexagrams each, with and uneven distribution of = unreversable hexagrams (so, where is the 'mirror plane'?), without a = clear sequence of yin and yang lines (as the Shao Yung circular = arrangement) (sorry Frank, I was unable to see your 12 lines pattern; = will you please clarify me?) or even a trigram based sequence, is a = clear signal that the key to the order present in the received sequence = is just the meaning of the hexagrams and not any other secondary symbol, = like its number or shape. Questions arisen by the received order are, for instance:=20 the relationship between H03 and H04 was somehow forced by their inverse = graphic relationship, but why the pair H03-H04 is followed by the pair = H05-H06? there is not 'liberty' in the fact of H04 follows H03, but why H27 = follows H26 and H29 follows H28? And why they are in Part One and not = divided between the two halves? I know that in chinese history many, many alternatives of reorganizing = the hexagrams were attempted, but I consider those as secondary efforts, = complementary to the one that have to came first: mastering the meaning = of the figures, iluminating thus those secondary studies. And this is = something I miss in this list. Mathematical considerations, zodiacal = relationships, etc., are actively discussed by many people, but very = seldom a subject related to the hexagrams meaning attract the members = attention. Who knows, maybe it applies to me the Dao De Jing words: "... = I'm confused. Other men are clear and bright, but I alone am dim and = weak. Other men are sharp and clever, but I alone am dull and stupid." = :-))) I wonder if, behind the search for new orders, there is the acceptance = of the own unability to explain the received order or, worse, a = resistance to accept that there is no order at all in it. I'm still in = the stage of trying to understand the hexagrams meaning so I have a lot = of work to do.=20 Asking the help of the list I will repeat a question that puzzles me: = why the Mawangdui manuscript changes the H57 by the H59 in the 'sequence = of the character' (a shorter but, undoubtedly, a clear orderered = sequence of hexagrams)? It cannot be a copy error because the two = characters are different (and are repeated three times in the text), it = cannot be a loan because their sounds are also different and, more = significant, their meaning are quite different so one of them is a = mistake. So, which one is the correct? Which one is the "exercise of = character"? Which one is able to "weigh things and remain hidden"? Which = one is "able to take special circumstances into account" (a W/B = translation) or "used to exercise authority" (a more adequate = Shoughnessy' translation)? Tchau By the way, 'tchau' is a very common compliment in all latin languages = (tchau, chau, ciao, even the german chuss sounds similar) and means 'by, = by'; my name is Jorge Jorge Vulibrun Florianopolis, Brasil jorgevul@newsite.com.br -----Mensagem original----- De: FKegan@aol.com Para: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Data: S=E1bado, 25 de Mar=E7o de 2000 16:15 Assunto: HEX8: Re: hexagram pairs =20 =20 Hi Tchau, It is an intriguing pattern that each even number hexagram is = the=20 opposite of its preceding odd numbered hexagram, with those that are = symmetrical, and therefore do not change when tumbled on their heads = as it=20 were being made opposite by exchanging the lines yin for yang. And = this=20 pattern plays out with the first pair of the Yi and the last two = pairs of=20 both the first and second half being those that are symmetrical. It = also=20 allows seeing the hexagrams as being established in sets of 12 = lines, with 6=20 lines in one pattern and the next six a complementary one. It is even more intriguing to note that this also meshes with = laying=20 the hexagrams out in sequence by into 6 sets of 10 or into a circle = of 360=20 lines within the 4 corners of the first and last pair. One of the = wonders of=20 ancient symbol systems is that they "work out" by an indefinite = number of=20 arrangements and explanations. None of which eliminates any of the = others,=20 they all just add together and complement each other.=20 One of the interesting exercises is to try to explain why a = particular=20 pattern of lines would have the name that it does and the place in = the=20 sequence that it does within the rubric of these tumbled pairs = bookended by=20 hexagrams symmetrical about the mirror plane at their middle. The = issue there=20 is whether the names are essential or simply a way of expressing the = pattern=20 of lines or the place in the sequence. The result of 18 pairs in both halves although they have 30 and = 34=20 hexagrams arises from the last pair being the total opposite of the = first=20 pair, so where 1 and 2 have only one kind of line, 63 and 64 = exchange into=20 each other by either turning them on their heads or reversing each = line. Your final remarks rather baffle me. After laying out all these = examples=20 of how everything in the hexagrams is neatly arranged in pairs, you = question=20 whether dividing the book in half was "saving paper or laziness" = which would=20 suggest such pairing was of no intrinsic meaning. The notion of = even, what=20 can be made into a pair seems generally important in Chinese = thought. The=20 names for the even numbers in Chinese all reflect that they can be = divided=20 equally in half. The elegance of the patterns of the Yi are most delightful and = they can=20 be taken seriously or humorously as one wishes. Frank =20 =20 =20 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to = majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. - ------=_NextPart_000_0100_01BF970F.D51B4120 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi all
 
(this is not intended as being exclusively an answer = to=20 Frank's post; I have a question to all menbers of the = list))
 
Frank
 
Few days ago Lothar accused me of aproaching the Yi = too=20 seriously and now you say that I'm taking the book 'humorously', = obviously=20 meaning 'lightly'. It's very difficult to content everybody = ;-))
 
I assure you that I don't take the = book lightly.=20 Please notice that my message' subject was 'mathematics' and my = intention was to=20 comment on the approach of looking mathematically the Yi, mathematics = not even=20 dreamed by the chinese that developed the book. For me this is a clear=20 imperialistic way of thinking (maybe THE most trully Western=20 characteristic).
 
For me the neat division of the = received text in=20 two groups of 18 figures, with 30 and 34 hexagrams each, with and uneven = distribution of unreversable hexagrams (so, where is the 'mirror = plane'?),=20 without a clear sequence of yin and yang lines (as the Shao Yung = circular=20 arrangement) (sorry Frank, I was unable to see your 12 lines pattern; = will you=20 please clarify me?) or even a trigram based sequence, is a clear signal = that the=20 key to the order present in the received sequence is just the meaning of = the=20 hexagrams and not any other secondary symbol, like its number or=20 shape.
 
Questions arisen by the received order are, for = instance:=20
 
the relationship between H03 and H04 was somehow = forced by=20 their inverse graphic relationship, but why the pair H03-H04 is followed = by the=20 pair H05-H06?
 
there is not 'liberty' in the fact of H04 follows = H03, but why=20 H27 follows H26 and H29 follows H28? And why they are in Part One and = not=20 divided between the two halves?
 
I know that in chinese history many, many = alternatives of=20 reorganizing the hexagrams were attempted, but I consider those as = secondary=20 efforts, complementary to the one that have to came first: mastering the = meaning=20 of the figures, iluminating thus those secondary studies. And this is = something=20 I miss in this list. Mathematical considerations, zodiacal = relationships, etc.,=20 are actively discussed by many people, but very seldom a subject related = to the=20 hexagrams meaning attract the members attention. Who knows, maybe it = applies to=20 me the Dao De Jing words: "... I'm confused. Other men are clear = and=20 bright, but I alone am dim and weak. Other men are sharp and clever, but = I alone=20 am dull and stupid."   :-)))
 
I wonder if, behind the search for new orders, there = is the=20 acceptance of the own unability to explain the received order or, worse, = a=20 resistance to accept that there is no order at all in it. I'm still in = the stage=20 of trying to understand the hexagrams meaning so I have a lot of work to = do.=20
 
Asking the help of the list I will repeat a question = that=20 puzzles me: why the Mawangdui manuscript changes the H57 by the H59 in = the=20 'sequence of the character' (a shorter but, undoubtedly, a clear = orderered=20 sequence of hexagrams)? It cannot be a copy error because the two = characters are=20 different (and are repeated three times in the text), it cannot be a = loan=20 because their sounds are also different and, more significant, their = meaning are=20 quite different so one of them is a mistake. So, which one is the = correct? Which=20 one is the "exercise of character"? Which one is able to = "weigh=20 things and remain hidden"? Which one is "able to take special=20 circumstances into account" (a W/B translation) or "used to = exercise=20 authority" (a more adequate Shoughnessy' translation)?
 
Tchau
By the way, = 'tchau' is a=20 very common compliment in all latin languages (tchau, chau, ciao, even = the=20 german chuss sounds similar) and means 'by, by'; my name is = Jorge
 
Jorge Vulibrun
Florianopolis, = Brasil
jorgevul@newsite.com.br
-----Mensagem = original-----
De:=20 FKegan@aol.com <FKegan@aol.com>
Para: = hexagram-8@apocalypse.org = <hexagram-8@apocalypse.org&g= t;
Data:=20 Sábado, 25 de Março de 2000 16:15
Assunto: = HEX8:=20 Re: hexagram pairs

Hi = Tchau,
    =20 It is an intriguing pattern that each even number hexagram is the=20
opposite of its preceding odd numbered hexagram, with those that = are=20
symmetrical, and therefore do not change when tumbled on their = heads as=20 it
were being made opposite by exchanging the lines yin for = yang. And=20 this
pattern plays out with the first pair of the Yi and the = last two=20 pairs of
both the first and second half being those that are=20 symmetrical.  It also
allows seeing the hexagrams as being=20 established in sets of 12 lines, with 6
lines in one pattern and = the=20 next six a complementary = one.
       It is=20 even more intriguing to note that this also meshes with laying =
the=20 hexagrams out in sequence by into 6 sets of 10 or into a circle of = 360=20
lines within the 4 corners of the first and last pair. One of = the=20 wonders of
ancient symbol systems is that they "work = out" by=20 an indefinite number of
arrangements and explanations. None of = which=20 eliminates any of the others,
they all just add together and = complement=20 each other.
     One of the interesting = exercises is=20 to try to explain why a particular
pattern of lines would have = the name=20 that it does and the place in the
sequence that it does within = the=20 rubric of these tumbled pairs bookended by
hexagrams symmetrical = about=20 the mirror plane at their middle. The issue there
is whether the = names=20 are essential or simply a way of expressing the pattern
of lines = or the=20 place in the sequence.
    The result of 18 pairs = in both=20 halves although they have 30 and 34
hexagrams arises from the = last pair=20 being the total opposite of the first
pair, so where 1 and 2 = have only=20 one kind of line, 63 and 64 exchange into
each other by either = turning=20 them on their heads or reversing each = line.
     Your=20 final remarks rather baffle me. After laying out all these examples =
of=20 how everything in the hexagrams is neatly arranged in pairs, you = question=20
whether dividing the book in half was "saving paper or=20 laziness" which would
suggest such pairing was of no = intrinsic=20 meaning. The notion of even, what
can be made into a pair seems=20 generally important in Chinese thought. The
names for the even = numbers=20 in Chinese all reflect that they can be divided
equally in=20 half.
    The elegance of the patterns of the Yi = are most=20 delightful and they can
be taken seriously or humorously as one=20 wishes.
Frank
 


=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
To = unsubscribe from=20 Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org
= from=20 the address subscribed, containing just the word=20 UNSUBSCRIBE.
- ------=_NextPart_000_0100_01BF970F.D51B4120-- ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ End of hexagram-8-digest V1 #167 ******************************** From owner-hexagram-8-digest@apocalypse.org Sun Mar 26 22:48:02 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id WAA07834 for hexagram-8-digest-outgoing; Sun, 26 Mar 2000 22:48:02 -0500 Date: Sun, 26 Mar 2000 22:48:02 -0500 Message-Id: <200003270348.WAA07834@apocalypse.org> X-Authentication-Warning: apocalypse.org: majordom set sender to owner-hexagram-8-digest@apocalypse.org using -f From: owner-hexagram-8-digest@apocalypse.org (hexagram-8-digest) To: hexagram-8-digest@apocalypse.org Subject: hexagram-8-digest V1 #168 Reply-To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Sender: owner-hexagram-8-digest@apocalypse.org Errors-To: owner-hexagram-8-digest@apocalypse.org Precedence: bulk hexagram-8-digest Sunday, March 26 2000 Volume 01 : Number 168 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 26 Mar 2000 09:53:56 -0800 (PST) From: diane haldane Subject: HEX8: practical i ching does anyone here use the i ching for guidance in every day, or spiritual matters? if so, i would be interested to hear if the guidance has been helpful to you. i have noticed that i often get the same hexagrams over and over for a certain period of time. probably there is a logical and scientific explanation for it, but i am more interested in the implications of this from a spiritual perspective. any thoughts? diane __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 26 Mar 2000 13:16:48 -0500 From: "Dr R. Butler" Subject: Re: HEX8: Re: Sequence of character formation (it was: hexagram pairs) Hi Jorge, Here are some of my own thoughts on your questions, many of which I too have pondered for some time. >>Questions arisen by the received order are, for instance: the >>relationship between H03 and H04 was somehow forced by their inverse >>graphic relationship, Hexagrams are 'written' from the bottom up. "Six at the beginning, Nine at the top, etc." However, chinese is read from the top down. Hence, if King Wen for instance, made a hexagram and looked at it, he would have 'seen' it both ways simultaneously. Therefore, pairing the two together is a natural consequence. For symmetric pairs such as H27 & H28, once a pairing of H1 & H2 are admitted, then the others follow. >>but why the pair H03-H04 is followed by the pair H05-H06? there is not >>'liberty' in the fact of H04 follows H03, but why H27 follows H26 and >>H29 follows H28? And why they are in Part One and not divided between >>the two halves? The division of the Hexagrams between into Book 1 and Book 2 may have been a later attempt at order. >>I know that in chinese history many, many alternatives of reorganizing >>the hexagrams were attempted, but I consider those as secondary efforts, >>complementary to the one that have to came first: mastering the meaning >>of the figures, iluminating thus those secondary studies. And this is >>something I miss in this list. Mathematical considerations, zodiacal >>relationships, etc., are actively discussed by many people, but very >>seldom a subject related to the hexagrams meaning attract the members >>attention. I myself have spent some time on the mathematics and the patterns, and there is a lot of interesting material here. However, I am primarily interested at the moment in the 'hexagram meanings' as well. The approach I currently follow is the ancient chinese characters themselves. The characters are pictures and convey, at least with symbolism, the meaning of hexagrams. >>Who knows, maybe it applies to me the Dao De Jing words: "... I'm >>confused. Other men are clear and bright, but I alone am dim and weak. >>Other men are sharp and clever, but I alone am dull and stupid." :-))) >> I wonder if, behind the search for new orders, there is the acceptance >>of the own unability to explain the received order or, worse, a >>resistance to accept that there is no order at all in it. I have seen many explanations of the sequence and patterns therein. However, when you begin to apply stronger probabilistic analyses and attempt to reject the null hypothesis (chance) at a 95% level of confidence, I have seen none shown that reject chance mathematically. Long ago when I first started looking at the Yi it seemed to me that King Wen simply wrote out the sequence in the Order that he received it from consulting the Yarrow. In one sense it is 'random', in another it the very ordering of the Tao. >>I'm still in the stage of trying to understand the hexagrams meaning so >>I have a lot of work to do. Asking the help of the list I will repeat >>a question that puzzles me: why the Mawangdui manuscript changes the H57 >>by the H59 in the 'sequence of the character' (a shorter but, >>undoubtedly, a clear orderered sequence of hexagrams)? It cannot be a >>copy error because the two characters are different (and are repeated >>three times in the text), it cannot be a loan because their sounds are >>also different and, more significant, their meaning are quite different >>so one of them is a mistake. So, which one is the correct? Before you can begin to answer this question, you must begin with the Mawangdui text itself. There are actually many problems with this text that are not well appreciated. You note the use of H59 in Shaughnessy page 231. In the Appended Statements (Shaughnessy pages 205-205), the character for the Name of H59 is different from both Mawangdui and the Received text Hexagram names. I can verify this from the MAWANGDUI HAN MU WENWU photographs of the Mawangdui Yijing text and Appended Statements. I do not have the photos of the "Properties of the Changes" text example that you give, so cannot comment on the actual form of the written character and the quality of the transcription. Thus, the question you posed, "why the Mawangdui manuscript changes the H57 by the H59 in the 'sequence of the character', " has some curious difficulties. This collection of various Mawangdui texts are not themselves internally self consistent. Therefore the 'why' of H57 vs H59 may be unknowable. Ciao, Rhett ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 26 Mar 2000 20:34:53 +0200 From: "Marianne.Goeppel" Subject: Re: HEX8: practical i ching Hi Diane, hi all, I am new to the list and I am very happy to have found it. Living in Germany, I use mostly the Wilhelm translation. I frequently use the I Ching for guidance in every-day-matters. And it has been very helpful to me at times. It also happenend to me that i received the same hexagrams again and again for a longer period. Sometimes, when receiving these, i didn't understand the meaning of it, but only later on when the *special time* of one hexagram was over. i interpret this in the way that a specific *aspect* of my personality is either prevailing or neglected and calling for attention. It also happened to me that sometimes, for longer periods of time, I didn't get any hexagram that made any sense to me and that I found no access at all to the oracle. Then i just quit using it for a time. i love the I Ching also for its literary qualities, it is so packed with metaphors and symbols and old songs and historical legends, consisting of so many historical layers. Unfortunately, my foundations of *background knowledge* are still rather superficial (and I don't know any chinese, either). Lately, I have been coming back to the book of Katya Walter (don't know the original title of it, as I read it in german) which impresses me much. I think it is a *good try* aiming at a synthesis of the spiritual and the scientific side of the I Ching (the differentiation of which is of course only our own left/right hemisphere separation). Has anybody read it? Marianne - -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht----- Von: diane haldane An: Gesendet: Sonntag, 26. März 2000 19:53 Betreff: HEX8: practical i ching > > does anyone here use the i ching for guidance in every day, or spiritual matters? > if so, i would be interested to hear if the > guidance has been helpful to you. > i have noticed that i often get the same > hexagrams over and over for a certain period > of time. probably there is a logical and > scientific explanation for it, but i am > more interested in the implications of this > from a spiritual perspective. > any thoughts? > diane > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. > http://im.yahoo.com > > > ===== > To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org > from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. > > ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 26 Mar 2000 18:28:10 EST From: FKegan@aol.com Subject: HEX8: Re: months, moons and celestial mechanix of the Ancients Hi Monica, The ancients of cultures all over the world shared many insights. That the agricultural seasons were connected to the motion of the sun across the ecliptic, and that the angular momentum of the Planet Earth and resultant tides, feelings and cycles were connected to the phases of the moon is pretty much obvious to most folks ancient and modern. What is not quite so obvious is that the simple cycles of the day, month and year do not fit together exactly and the arrangements and compromises worked out amongst these cycles only approximately succeed. Ancients seem to have been better at accepting the occult aspects of the differences, moderns with their credulous belief in the work of religious fanatics like Newton seem to persist in thinking their views are better than the ancient's since moderns call the work based upon their monks science and others had different religions disrespected by the West. The Greeks integrated their ancient lunar systems with those of the conquering Indo-Europeans who had the ability to keep track of the day of the year by observing the positions of the sun relative to the elliptic. They also apparently had iron weapons, though later European schemas of theological notions of Evolution required iron work to belong to later times. All of these are interesting tidbits of misc. historical research, including that the English word month is related to the word Moon. The original train of thought was whether the number of lines of the I Ching could be related to the number of days in a lunar year of 13 (4-week) months. A discussion which assumed we all knew about the underlying celestial mechanics and weren't concerned about which of the various lunar cycles exactly was to be taken as the "lunar month" and therefore the only issue was whether the I Ching was designed with a factor of 13 in mind or not. My apologies in my answers to that train of thought I did not also include my erudition upon simple celestial mechanics, particularly as I happen to interpret Einstein's work differently than he, as a loyal Newtonian born in the 19th century, would himself which might be confusing to some only into the I Ching. Frank ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 26 Mar 2000 18:28:07 EST From: FKegan@aol.com Subject: HEX8: Mathematics and Randomness and Imperial stuff Hi Jorge, My apologies for not picking up on your spelling of Chau, I spent a few months living with a family in Rosario, Argentina as a high school student, so che and chau are not unknown concepts to me. One of the first things I noticed, decades ago (and only a few years after returning from Argentina) was that there is no scientific difference between Random Order and Divinely arranged order. By Prof. Bridgman's operationalism you can either write a formula to determine the series or you cannot. After that is purely a personal choice if you choose to say the reason is that there is no order (random), you are unable to write the formula (brutal honesty) or the order is beyond human understanding being Divinely ordained (optimistic). The actions of European maritime trade in recent centuries has generally been taken as the hallmark of Imperialism; however, Empires seem to act pretty much the same throughout history and around the Globe. Although gunboats were never the Chinese prime weapon, through the millennia they have managed Empire and Imperialism as well as any. I had a Prof. of history of technology years ago very taken with the remains of Chinese slag heaps and porcelain shards in New Guinea (trading porcelain for spices and labor at their vast steel works they established there) for about 5 centuries during the time Europe was enjoying its Dark Ages and early Medievalism. Any notion of any limitation in the Chinese ability to do any sort of mathematics also seems strange to me. Some note the origin of the zero from the Arabs or India: others note it was a Chinese creation traded to India and the Arabs along with silk. In history of technology, they say the Chinese are slow to pick up new technology, but once acquired they are the first to develop it to its ultimate state. The note about 12 lines, is that since the Yi hexagrams are arranged in pairs, and there are 6 lines in one hexagram there are 12 lines in a pair. That is only of interest if you compare the hexagrams to dice which use two cubes with 6 sides each and with horoscope wheels which have two inscribed hexagons based upon perpendicular axes to form 12 houses or signs. Deriving the meaning of the hexagrams from the names given them and the etymology of the Chinese ideograms raises as many questions as it does answers. I enjoy traipsing through Weiger, SJ's Chinese Characters, but then my friends who teach Chinese in Europe comment that such efforts are looked down upon by the professionals in the field, especially since the work of Pound (British Imperialism seems to upset everyone). Personally, from my experience with Gia-Fu Feng and working with him on his Taoist Translation of the I Ching, it seems that relying upon the objective meaning of the Chinese ideograms, tends to miss the distinction between ancient and modern and the subjective and mystical connotations. Also, I find all this emphasis upon specific manuscripts and museum catalogue stuff about what has been logged at what time only suitable for humor. Perhaps what another commented to you as being too serious and I called being humorous refer to the same thing -- taking serious what is only of interest to European (and their former empire's) academic perspectives more appropriate to the medieval monastery. My early work with the I Ching arose from an insight that the meaning of the hexagrams could be derived from two simple rules and the pattern of Yang and Yin line places. Rule one: there is a natural sequence from 1st to 6th line. Rule 2: There is a natural flow of potential from yang to yin. I published a book in 1978 with those insights and American names for the hexagrams. More recently I came to develop a correspondence between the 360 lines of the 60 hexagrams 3-62 to the Sabian Symbols in Astrology. Sabian symbols are poetry assigned to each degree of the zodiac. There are several versions of them with slightly different poetry. At first I used the Wilhelm line judgments and the Rudhyar Sabian Symbols poetry (which he called an American I Ching). What first jumped out at me was that lines which in Wilhelm spoke of misfortune and humiliation corresponded to Sabian Symbols which Rudhyar wrote as being marvelous New Age opportunities for self expression. Then I realized Wilhelm used the Confucian commentaries which were geared to the needs of bureaucrats in the Imperial Government. Working now for our Federal Census, I am picking up all sorts of reminders and pointers of how different the interpretations of the oracle must be for those working for government bureaucracies. The question of the sequence has always intrigued me. The notion of its being anything but perfectly and elegantly ordered with the meanings of the hexagrams and every possible correspondence never entered my mind. Everything else in traditional China is ordered with such precision, that the I Ching would have any less requires a very special attitude of mind. In general, folks find what they expect, so for you the ordering of the hexagrams may be a work of little craftsmanship, for me I find a perfect fit by several different perspectives. Working from the hexagram meaning as expressed in both the line patterns and the sequence patterns and then exploring the words used and their possible meaning from various texts seems to work out very well for me, but then I don't have much interest in what manuscript was claimed by which museum and given which date or academic prestige. I hope this helps at least explain my perspective. I wish you kind regards, I must decline to return the use of Chau since in Argentina of the early '60's it was considered impolite except amongst family and close friends. Frank ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 26 Mar 2000 18:57:01 -0600 From: omei shan Subject: Re: HEX8: practical i ching Marianne - Do you mean "Tao of Chaos?" Monica >Lately, I have been coming back to the book of Katya Walter >(don't know the original title of it, as I read it in german) which >impresses me much. I think it is a *good try* aiming at a synthesis >of the spiritual and the scientific side of the I Ching (the differentiation >of which is of course only our own left/right hemisphere separation). >Has anybody read it? > ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 26 Mar 2000 19:15:58 -0600 From: omei shan Subject: Re: HEX8: practical i ching Hello, Diane and Marianne: I use the Tarot more often than any other oracle, and find the same thing (same cards over and over) happens with it as well. I normally use several decks during a sitting, and find the repetition carries ACROSS decks as well. There's nothing like getting the same cards across 8 or 10 decks! That's a pretty definite message! Since I'm much more attuned to the Tarot than other oracles, I can usually figure out *what* is coming up, although I sometimes have problems with the timing. I'm getting better, though! >I frequently use the I Ching for guidance in every-day-matters. >And it has been very helpful to me at times. > Ditto for me re: Tarot! My usual method of card play is to set aside some time on Sunday evening and ask about my upcoming week. I differentiate between work and personal time, and switch decks according to subjective criteria which have worked out for me. Something I've yet to read from the group: Most of my oracular play is done as part of a group. There is a small group I meet with on a (mostly) weekly basis. We gather 'round a kitchen table and read cards for ourselves and each other. I call us the "Three Cs" - cards, coffee and cookies. Occasionally others will drop in, mostly to get readings. I personally believe the relaxed atmosphere contributes to the success of our consultation/divination/whatever - We're batting about a 98% accuracy rate, although we haven't figured out any lottery numbers yet (but we've come close!). Monica ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 26 Mar 2000 19:36:19 -0600 From: omei shan Subject: Re: HEX8: Re: months, moons and celestial mechanix of the Ancients > The >original train of thought was whether the number of lines of the I Ching >could be related to the number of days in a lunar year of 13 (4-week) months. >A discussion which assumed we all knew about the underlying celestial >mechanics and weren't concerned about which of the various lunar cycles >exactly was to be taken as the "lunar month" and therefore the only issue was >whether the I Ching was designed with a factor of 13 in mind or not. > For what it's worth: As part of my I Ching training, I had to build an I Ching-based calendar. I was never able to prove a correlation of any significance between the number of lines of the I Ching and the number of days in a lunar calendar. I *did*, however, develop a simple yet accurate I Ching based calendar which impressed my instructor. >My apologies in my answers to that train of thought I did not also >include my erudition upon simple celestial mechanics, particularly as I >happen to interpret Einstein's work differently than he, as a loyal Newtonian >born in the 19th century, would himself which might be confusing to some only >into the I Ching. I have a nodding acquaintance with celestial mechanics, I'm more familiar with quantum mechanics (I *much* prefer the Everett interpretation to the Copenhagen interpretation) and non-linear dynamics. This bias shows in my I Ching interpretations. Monica ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 26 Mar 2000 18:00:45 -0800 From: wayne_rebecca Subject: Re: HEX8: Re: months, moons and celestial mechanix of theAncients Hi, Sounds fascinating... Any chance of your sharing? wayne omei shan wrote: > > As part of my I Ching training, I had to build an I Ching-based calendar. > I was never able to prove a correlation of any significance between the > number of lines of the I Ching and the number of days in a lunar calendar. > I *did*, however, develop a simple yet accurate I Ching based calendar > which impressed my instructor. > > I have a nodding acquaintance with celestial mechanics, I'm more familiar > with quantum mechanics (I *much* prefer the Everett interpretation to the > Copenhagen interpretation) and non-linear dynamics. This bias shows in my > I Ching interpretations. > > Monica > > ===== > To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org > from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. - -- Wayne & Rebecca Lowry Springfield, Oregon wayne_rebecca@iname.com ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 26 Mar 2000 23:03:29 -0300 From: "Jorge" Subject: Re: HEX8: Re: Sequence of character formation This is a multi-part message in MIME format. - ------=_NextPart_000_01FD_01BF9777.8037B4A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi all Rhett You wrote: Hexagrams are 'written' from the bottom up. "Six at the beginning, Nine = at the top, etc." However, chinese is read from the top down. Hence, if = King Wen for instance, made a hexagram and looked at it, he would have 'seen' = it both ways simultaneously. Therefore, pairing the two together is a = natural consequence. For symmetric pairs such as H27 & H28, once a pairing of H1 = & H2 are admitted, then the others follow. >>but why the pair H03-H04 is followed by the pair H05-H06? there is = not >>'liberty' in the fact of H04 follows H03, but why H27 follows H26 and >>H29 follows H28? And why they are in Part One and not divided between >>the two halves? =20 The division of the Hexagrams between into Book 1 and Book 2 may have = been a later attempt at order. **************** OK, so H27 and H28 follows naturally one to another, but why they are = followed by H29 and H30 and not by another 'inverted' pair? Why all the = symmetric hexagrams are not grouped together at the beggining, middle or = end of the sequence (a more logical position)? Obviously, there is a = hidden meaning in the received sequence. You wrote Long ago when I first started looking at the Yi it seemed to me that = King Wen simply wrote out the sequence in the Order that he received it from consulting the Yarrow. In one sense it is 'random', in another it the = very ordering of the Tao. ********* Very nice idea!!! It never ocurred to me and I haven't read anything = like this. It makes a lot of sense considering the traditional story of = how the hexagrams where revealed to King Wen. This relation between = random and divine was also pointed by Frank in today's post. If the = received order reflects the Tao's order, it justifies any effort in = trying to grasp the meaning involved in it. You wrote Before you can begin to answer this question, you must begin with the Mawangdui text itself. There are actually many problems with this text = that are not well appreciated. You note the use of H59 in Shaughnessy page = 231. In the Appended Statements (Shaughnessy pages 205-205), the character = for the Name of H59 is different from both Mawangdui and the Received text Hexagram names. I can verify this from the MAWANGDUI HAN MU WENWU photographs of the Mawangdui Yijing text and Appended Statements. I do = not have the photos of the "Properties of the Changes" text example that you give, so cannot comment on the actual form of the written character and = the quality of the transcription. ************ I'm not able to read arcaic chinese and don't have even access to the = manuscript photographs so I have to rely in Shoughnessy work. In pag 204 = H59 is named Huan (037-06) while the hexagram name, both in the received = book and the manuscript itself, is Huan (085-09). Being this the case I = will assume that there is a case of loan character because, except for = the radical 085 in the latter, both characters are equal. Anyhow, what we are dealing with is the difference between H59 (being = Huan 037-06 or Huan 085-09) and H57 (Xun 049-09 in the received text or = Suan 118-08 in the Mawangdui manuscript), three quite different = characters. I think that with this in view, we still can pose the = question of the substitution as an intriging problem, compounded by the = fact that in the manuscript H57 is called Suan, meaning: 'to count, to = calculate; abacus, calculator; to plan, to estimate", a meaning quite = different that of Xun "yielding, humble" of the received text. Tchau Jorge Vulibrun Florianopolis, Brasil jorgevul@newsite.com.br - ------=_NextPart_000_01FD_01BF9777.8037B4A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi all
 
Rhett
 
You wrote:
Hexagrams are = 'written'=20 from the bottom up. "Six at the beginning, Nine at
the top, = etc."=20 However, chinese is read from the top down. Hence, if King
Wen for = instance,=20 made a hexagram and looked at it, he would have 'seen' it
both ways=20 simultaneously. Therefore, pairing the two together is a = natural
consequence.=20 For symmetric pairs such as H27 & H28, once a pairing of H1 = &
H2 are=20 admitted, then the others follow.

>>but why the pair = H03-H04 is=20 followed by the  pair H05-H06?   there is=20 not
>>'liberty' in the fact of H04 follows H03, but why  = H27=20 follows H26 and
>>H29 follows H28? And why they are in Part One = and=20 not  divided between
>>the two halves? 

The = division=20 of the Hexagrams between into Book 1 and Book 2 may have been
a later = attempt=20 at order.
****************
 
OK, so H27 and H28 follows naturally one to another, = but why=20 they are followed by H29 and H30 and not by another 'inverted' pair? Why = all the=20 symmetric hexagrams are not grouped together at the beggining, middle or = end of=20 the sequence (a more logical position)? Obviously, there is a hidden = meaning in=20 the received sequence.
 
You wrote
Long ago when I first started = looking at=20 the Yi it seemed to me that King
Wen simply wrote out the sequence in = the=20 Order that he received it from
consulting the Yarrow. In one sense it = is=20 'random', in another it the very
ordering of the Tao.
*********
 
 
Very nice idea!!! It never ocurred to me and I = haven't read=20 anything like this. It makes a lot of sense considering the traditional = story of=20 how the hexagrams where revealed to King Wen. This relation between = random and=20 divine was also pointed by Frank in today's post. If the received order = reflects=20 the Tao's order, it justifies any effort in trying to grasp the meaning = involved=20 in it.
 
 
You wrote
Before you can begin to answer this question, you must begin with=20 the
Mawangdui text itself. There are actually many problems with this = text=20 that
are not well appreciated. You note the use of H59 in Shaughnessy = page=20 231.
In the Appended Statements (Shaughnessy pages 205-205), the = character=20 for
the Name of H59 is different from both Mawangdui and the Received = text
Hexagram names. I can verify this from the MAWANGDUI HAN MU=20 WENWU
photographs of the Mawangdui Yijing text and Appended = Statements. I do=20 not
have the photos of the "Properties of the Changes" text = example=20 that you
give, so cannot comment on the actual form of the written = character=20 and the
quality of the transcription.
************
 
I'm not able to read arcaic chinese and don't have = even access=20 to the manuscript photographs so I have to rely in Shoughnessy work. In = pag 204=20 H59 is named Huan (037-06) while the hexagram name, both in the received = book=20 and the manuscript itself, is Huan (085-09). Being this the case I will = assume=20 that there is a case of loan character because, except for the radical = 085 in=20 the latter, both characters are equal.
 
Anyhow, what we are dealing with is = the=20 difference between H59 (being Huan 037-06 or Huan 085-09) and H57 (Xun=20 049-09 in the received text or = Suan 118-08 in=20 the Mawangdui manuscript), three quite different characters. I think = that with=20 this in view, we still can pose the question of the substitution as an = intriging=20 problem, compounded by the fact that in the = manuscript H57=20 is called Suan, meaning: 'to count, to calculate; abacus, calculator; to = plan,=20 to estimate", a meaning quite different that of Xun "yielding, = humble" of the received text.
 
Tchau
Jorge Vulibrun
Florianopolis, Brasil
jorgevul@newsite.com.br
 
- ------=_NextPart_000_01FD_01BF9777.8037B4A0-- ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 26 Mar 2000 20:06:27 -0600 From: omei shan Subject: Re: HEX8: Re: months, moons and celestial mechanix of theAncients I am more than willing to share my calendar and anything else I think I know about the I Ching with anyone who is interested. Sorry my Web site is not up yet, but I can mail copies to anyone who's interested. Once we've got a "level-set," perhaps we can get a good discussion going. Monica At 06:00 PM 03/26/2000 -0800, you wrote: >Hi, > >Sounds fascinating... Any chance of your sharing? > >wayne > ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 26 Mar 2000 18:26:40 -0800 From: wayne_rebecca Subject: Re: HEX8: Re: months, moons and celestial mechanix oftheAncients Hi, Cool, though I suspect that there will be enough interest, you might consider "copy-pasting" them into an email to the list. Just "NOT" an attachment... :-) Either way, I'm interested. thanks, wayne omei shan wrote: > > I am more than willing to share my calendar and anything else I think I > know about the I Ching with anyone who is interested. Sorry my Web site is > not up yet, but I can mail copies to anyone who's interested. Once we've > got a "level-set," perhaps we can get a good discussion going. > > Monica > > > At 06:00 PM 03/26/2000 -0800, you wrote: > >Hi, > > > >Sounds fascinating... Any chance of your sharing? > > > >wayne > > > > ===== > To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org > from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. - -- Wayne & Rebecca Lowry Springfield, Oregon wayne_rebecca@iname.com ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 26 Mar 2000 20:31:44 -0600 From: omei shan Subject: Re: HEX8: Re: months, moons and celestial mechanix oftheAncients Hard to "copy-paste" them - It's a bunch of diagrams. That's why I remain quite on so many fronts - I understand and use the I Ching in mostly non-verbal terms - Think LOTS of pictures! Hard to describe, harder to discuss! If you know a way around this, let me know. Monica At 06:26 PM 03/26/2000 -0800, you wrote: >Hi, > >Cool, though I suspect that there will be enough interest, you >might consider "copy-pasting" them into an email to the list. >Just "NOT" an attachment... :-) > >Either way, I'm interested. > >thanks, >wayne > >omei shan wrote: >> >> I am more than willing to share my calendar and anything else I think I >> know about the I Ching with anyone who is interested. Sorry my Web site is >> not up yet, but I can mail copies to anyone who's interested. Once we've >> got a "level-set," perhaps we can get a good discussion going. >> >> Monica >> >> >> At 06:00 PM 03/26/2000 -0800, you wrote: >> >Hi, >> > >> >Sounds fascinating... Any chance of your sharing? >> > >> >wayne >> > >> >> ===== >> To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org >> from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. > > >-- >Wayne & Rebecca Lowry >Springfield, Oregon >wayne_rebecca@iname.com > > >===== >To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org >from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. > ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 26 Mar 2000 18:45:51 -0800 From: wayne_rebecca Subject: Re: HEX8: Re: months, moons and celestial mechanixoftheAncients Yep, The images would be a problem. Only way around that is private email, or a web site. wayne omei shan wrote: > > Hard to "copy-paste" them - It's a bunch of diagrams. - -- Wayne & Rebecca Lowry Springfield, Oregon wayne_rebecca@iname.com ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 26 Mar 2000 21:03:53 -0600 From: omei shan Subject: Re: HEX8: Re: months, moons and celestial mechanixoftheAncients Well - A Web site's in the works, but it's gonna take a while. Monica At 06:45 PM 03/26/2000 -0800, you wrote: >Yep, >The images would be a problem. Only way around that is private email, >or a web site. > >wayne > >omei shan wrote: >> >> Hard to "copy-paste" them - It's a bunch of diagrams. > >-- >Wayne & Rebecca Lowry >Springfield, Oregon >wayne_rebecca@iname.com > > >===== >To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org >from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. > ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 00:50:46 -0300 From: "Jorge" Subject: Re: HEX8: Mathematics and Randomness and Imperial stuff This is a multi-part message in MIME format. - ------=_NextPart_000_022C_01BF9786.7CD66360 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi all Frank What a coincidence, I'm argentinian myself, from Buenos Aires; I move to = Brasil 25 years ago. You wrote ... there is no scientific difference between Random Order and Divinely = arranged order. By Prof. Bridgman's operationalism you can either write = a formula to determine the series or you cannot. After that is purely a = personal choice if you choose to say the reason is that there is no = order (random), you are unable to write the formula (brutal honesty) or = the order is beyond human understanding being Divinely ordained = (optimistic).=20 ************ I liked that!! You stated clearly an it matches Rhett's reference to the = received order being obtained by yarrow consultations. Did you notice that what you said can be applied to the consultation = itself? It is necessary to use random methods to reach an answer (being = the Yi or any other oracle, from tarot to tea-reading) to get in touch = with what we, simplifying, call 'divine' or beyond our understanding. You wrote: The actions of European maritime trade in recent centuries has=20 generally been taken as the hallmark of Imperialism; however, Empires = seem to=20 act pretty much the same throughout history and around the Globe. = Although=20 gunboats were never the Chinese prime weapon, through the millennia they = have=20 managed Empire and Imperialism as well as any. I had a Prof. of history = of=20 technology years ago very taken with the remains of Chinese slag heaps = and=20 porcelain shards in New Guinea (trading porcelain for spices and labor = at=20 their vast steel works they established there) for about 5 centuries = during=20 the time Europe was enjoying its Dark Ages and early Medievalism. *********** I never said that the chinese were not imperialistic. Obviously they = were ... in the political sense. But, when they were invaded by a = foreign system of thoughts, like buddhism, they where more humble. They = first accepted it and learn it, and only after that, they blended it = with their local thinking and so they were able to develop Zen ... and = also killed a lot of monks because they were not useful working people = :-(( You wrote Any notion of any limitation in the Chinese ability to do any = sort of=20 mathematics also seems strange to me. *********** The Ta Chuan, chapter A-IX, shows the type of mathematics they used. = Obviously quite different from ours. You wrote: Deriving the meaning of the hexagrams from the names given them = and the etymology of the Chinese ideograms raises as many questions as = it does answers. [...] it seems that relying upon the objective meaning = of the Chinese ideograms, tends to miss the distinction between ancient = and modern and the subjective and mystical connotations. =20 ************ I thing that ANY approach to the Yi raises as many questions as it does = answers. In any language, meaning is hidden behind what was not said (Heidegger). = This problem is compounded by the fact that is impossible to translate = classical chinese to a modern language (I will bet that this is = applicable even to mandarim) because it resembles shorthand signs, so we = can only hope to have a more or less coherent version. But, at least, we = have to try to understand to a maximum those basic signs. You wrote: Also, I find all this emphasis upon specific manuscripts and museum = catalogue=20 stuff about what has been logged at what time only suitable for humor.=20 Perhaps what another commented to you as being too serious and I called = being=20 humorous refer to the same thing -- taking serious what is only of = interest=20 to European (and their former empire's) academic perspectives more=20 appropriate to the medieval monastery. *********** Maybe you feel confortable with the differences between Wilhelm, Legge, = Lynn, Kunst, Blofeld, Rutt, Cleary, et al, but i'm very dissapointed = with them because in many situations they seem to be talking of = different subjects like, for instance, line 4 of H09: "Sacrificing captives. Blood of castration. Though leaving sadly: no = misfortune" Rutt "If you are sincere, blood vanishes and fear gives way. No blame" W/B How do you choose? Or you take both? Or one day take one and the other = day another? After analizing the chinese text here is my version: "Having confidence you can detach from bloody situations and overcome = fears. No mistakes" (please, the sentence was not intended to be read with a british bias: = 'bloody' doesn't intent to mean 'bloody', it just means 'bloody' ...... = so, which 'bloody' we have to choose?) You wrote: My early work with the I Ching arose from an insight that the = meaning=20 of the hexagrams could be derived from two simple rules and the pattern = of=20 Yang and Yin line places. Rule one: there is a natural sequence from 1st = to=20 6th line. Rule 2: There is a natural flow of potential from yang to yin. = I=20 published a book in 1978 with those insights and American names for the=20 hexagrams. ********** I will be very interested in undertand those principles better. Is the = book available? Can you share with us the names you choose for the = hexagrams? You wrote: The question of the sequence has always intrigued me. The notion = of=20 its being anything but perfectly and elegantly ordered with the meanings = of=20 the hexagrams and every possible correspondence never entered my mind.=20 Everything else in traditional China is ordered with such precision, = that the=20 I Ching would have any less requires a very special attitude of mind. In = general, folks find what they expect, so for you the ordering of the=20 hexagrams may be a work of little craftsmanship, for me I find a perfect = fit=20 by several different perspectives. ************* I think you misinterpreted me. I do think that the received order is = VERY important. What I was trying to argue is that this order will be = more understandable thru the hexagram's meanings and not by any number = playing and that the division of the book in two parts is not = significative at all because it was derived form a convenient way of = present the hexagrams, that were not even numbered. You wrote: Working from the hexagram meaning as expressed in both the line=20 patterns and the sequence patterns and then exploring the words used and = their possible meaning from various texts seems to work out very well = for me,=20 but then I don't have much interest in what manuscript was claimed by = which=20 museum and given which date or academic prestige. ************ Good for you! You wrote: I wish you kind regards, I must decline to return the use of Chau since = in=20 Argentina of the early '60's it was considered impolite except amongst = family=20 and close friends. *********** Now you are showing an academic formalism. Maybe in HEX8 we are not a = family or close friends, but for sure we are people sharing common = interests, and this is enough to make us friends Tchau Jorge Vulibrun Florianopolis, Brasil jorgevul@newsite.com.br - ------=_NextPart_000_022C_01BF9786.7CD66360 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi all
 
Frank
 
What a coincidence, I'm argentinian = myself, from=20 Buenos Aires; I move to Brasil 25 years ago.
 
You wrote
... there is no scientific difference between Random Order and = Divinely=20 arranged order. By Prof. Bridgman's operationalism you can either write = a=20 formula to determine the series or you cannot. After that is purely a = personal=20 choice if you choose to say the reason is that there is no order = (random), you=20 are unable to write the formula (brutal honesty) or the order is beyond = human=20 understanding being Divinely ordained (optimistic).
************
 
I liked that!! You stated clearly an it matches = Rhett's=20 reference to the received order being obtained by yarrow=20 consultations.
 
Did you notice that what you said can be applied to = the=20 consultation itself? It is necessary to use random methods to reach an = answer=20 (being the Yi or any other oracle, from tarot to tea-reading) to get in = touch=20 with what we, simplifying, call 'divine' or beyond our=20 understanding.
 
 
 
You wrote:
        The actions of European = maritime=20 trade in recent centuries has
generally been taken as the hallmark = of=20 Imperialism; however, Empires seem to
act pretty much the same = throughout=20 history and around the Globe. Although
gunboats were never the = Chinese prime=20 weapon, through the millennia they have
managed Empire and = Imperialism as=20 well as any. I had a Prof. of history of
technology years ago very = taken=20 with the remains of Chinese slag heaps and
porcelain shards in New = Guinea=20 (trading porcelain for spices and labor at
their vast steel works = they=20 established there) for about 5 centuries during
the time Europe was = enjoying=20 its Dark Ages and early Medievalism.
***********
 
I never said that the chinese were not = imperialistic.=20 Obviously they were ... in the political sense. But, when they were = invaded by a=20 foreign system of thoughts, like buddhism, they where more humble. They = first=20 accepted it and learn it, and only after that, they blended it with = their local=20 thinking and so they were able to develop Zen ... and also killed a lot = of monks=20 because they were not useful working people :-((
 
 
 
You = wrote
       =20 Any notion of any limitation in the Chinese ability to do any sort of=20
mathematics also seems strange to me.
***********
 
The Ta Chuan, chapter A-IX, shows the type of = mathematics they=20 used. Obviously quite different from ours.
 
 
You wrote:
       Deriving the meaning of the = hexagrams=20 from the names given them and the etymology of the Chinese ideograms = raises as=20 many questions as it does answers. [...]  it seems that relying = upon the=20 objective meaning of the Chinese ideograms, tends to miss the = distinction=20 between ancient and modern and the subjective and mystical = connotations. =20
************
 
I thing that ANY approach to the Yi = raises as=20 many questions as it does answers.
 
In any language, meaning is hidden behind what was = not said=20 (Heidegger). This problem is compounded by the fact that is impossible = to=20 translate classical chinese to a modern language (I will bet that this = is=20 applicable even to mandarim) because it resembles shorthand signs, so we = can=20 only hope to have a more or less coherent version. But, at least, we = have to try=20 to understand to a maximum those basic signs.
 
 
You wrote:
Also, I find all this emphasis upon specific manuscripts and museum = catalogue
stuff about what has been logged at what time only = suitable for=20 humor.
Perhaps what another commented to you as being too serious = and I=20 called being
humorous refer to the same thing -- taking serious what = is only=20 of interest
to European (and their former empire's) academic = perspectives=20 more
appropriate to the medieval monastery.
***********
 
Maybe you feel confortable with the differences = between=20 Wilhelm, Legge, Lynn, Kunst, Blofeld, Rutt, Cleary, et al, but i'm very=20 dissapointed with them because in many situations they seem to be = talking of=20 different subjects like, for instance, line 4 of H09:
 
"Sacrificing captives. Blood of castration. = Though=20 leaving sadly: no misfortune" Rutt
"If you are sincere, blood vanishes and fear = gives way.=20 No blame" W/B
 
How do you choose? Or you take both? = Or one day=20 take one and the other day another?
 
After analizing the chinese text = here is my=20 version:
 
"Having confidence you can detach from bloody = situations=20 and overcome fears. No mistakes"
 
(please, the sentence was not intended to be read = with a=20 british bias: 'bloody' doesn't intent to mean 'bloody', it just means = 'bloody'=20 ...... so, which 'bloody' we have to choose?)
 
 
 
You = wrote:
       My=20 early work with the I Ching arose from an insight that the meaning =
of the=20 hexagrams could be derived from two simple rules and the pattern of =
Yang and=20 Yin line places. Rule one: there is a natural sequence from 1st to =
6th line.=20 Rule 2: There is a natural flow of potential from yang to yin. I =
published a=20 book in 1978 with those insights and American names for the =
hexagrams.
**********
 
 
I will be very interested in = undertand those=20 principles better. Is the book available? Can you share with us the = names you=20 choose for the hexagrams?
 
 
You = wrote:
       The=20 question of the sequence has always intrigued me. The notion of
its = being=20 anything but perfectly and elegantly ordered with the meanings of =
the=20 hexagrams and every possible correspondence never entered my mind.=20
Everything else in traditional China is ordered with such precision, = that=20 the
I Ching would have any less requires a very special attitude of = mind. In=20
general, folks find what they expect, so for you the ordering of the =
hexagrams may be a work of little craftsmanship, for me I find a = perfect fit=20
by several different perspectives.
*************
 
I think you misinterpreted me. I do think that the = received=20 order is VERY important. What I was trying to argue is that this order = will be=20 more understandable thru the hexagram's meanings and not by any number = playing=20 and that the division of the book in two parts is not significative at = all=20 because it was derived form a convenient way of present the hexagrams, = that were=20 not even numbered.
 
 
You = wrote:
      =20 Working from the hexagram meaning as expressed in both the line =
patterns and=20 the sequence patterns and then exploring the words used and
their = possible=20 meaning from various texts seems to work out very well for me,
but = then I=20 don't have much interest in what manuscript was claimed by which =
museum and=20 given which date or academic prestige.
************
 
Good for you!
 
 
You wrote:
I wish you kind regards, I must decline to = return the=20 use of Chau since in
Argentina of the early '60's it was considered = impolite=20 except amongst family
and close friends.
***********
 
Now you are showing an academic formalism. Maybe in = HEX8 we=20 are not a family or close friends, but for sure we are people sharing = common=20 interests, and this is enough to make us friends

Tchau
Jorge Vulibrun
Florianopolis, = Brasil
jorgevul@newsite.com.br

- ------=_NextPart_000_022C_01BF9786.7CD66360-- ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ End of hexagram-8-digest V1 #168 ******************************** From owner-hexagram-8-digest@apocalypse.org Tue Mar 28 15:06:05 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA14832 for hexagram-8-digest-outgoing; Tue, 28 Mar 2000 15:06:05 -0500 Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 15:06:05 -0500 Message-Id: <200003282006.PAA14832@apocalypse.org> X-Authentication-Warning: apocalypse.org: majordom set sender to owner-hexagram-8-digest@apocalypse.org using -f From: owner-hexagram-8-digest@apocalypse.org (hexagram-8-digest) To: hexagram-8-digest@apocalypse.org Subject: hexagram-8-digest V1 #169 Reply-To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Sender: owner-hexagram-8-digest@apocalypse.org Errors-To: owner-hexagram-8-digest@apocalypse.org Precedence: bulk hexagram-8-digest Tuesday, March 28 2000 Volume 01 : Number 169 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 26 Mar 2000 20:19:49 -0800 (PST) From: diane haldane Subject: Re: HEX8: practical i ching hi marianne, thanks for your thoughts. the book you mention is called _the tao of chaos_ in english, if it is the same one i have looked at. it deals with the i ching and dna, and perhaps some other things. yes, indeed, has anyone here read that? i have been trying to gear about my psychological energy to read that, but every time i look at it i just don't think i'll be comprehending it just yet.i do have a bit of a comprehension problem, and it applies to my understanding of the i ching as an oracle as well, but i don't want to give up and i think with perservance i will get through to something. diane ~~~~~~~~~ - --- "Marianne.Goeppel" wrote: > Hi Diane, hi all, > > I am new to the list and I am very happy to have found it. Living in > Germany, I use mostly the Wilhelm translation. > > I frequently use the I Ching for guidance in every-day-matters. > And it has been very helpful to me at times. It also happenend > to me that i received the same hexagrams again and again for > a longer period. Sometimes, when receiving these, i didn't understand > the meaning of it, but only later on when the *special time* of one > hexagram was over. i interpret this in the way that a specific *aspect* > of my personality is either prevailing or neglected and calling for > attention. > It also happened to me that sometimes, for longer periods of > time, I didn't get any hexagram that made any sense to me and that > I found no access at all to the oracle. Then i just quit using it for > a time. > > i love the I Ching also for its literary qualities, it is so packed > with metaphors and symbols and old songs and historical > legends, consisting of so many historical layers. Unfortunately, > my foundations of *background knowledge* are still rather superficial > (and I don't know any chinese, either). > > Lately, I have been coming back to the book of Katya Walter > (don't know the original title of it, as I read it in german) which > impresses me much. I think it is a *good try* aiming at a synthesis > of the spiritual and the scientific side of the I Ching (the differentiation > of which is of course only our own left/right hemisphere separation). > Has anybody read it? > > Marianne > > > -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht----- > Von: diane haldane > An: > Gesendet: Sonntag, 26. März 2000 19:53 > Betreff: HEX8: practical i ching > > > > > > does anyone here use the i ching for guidance in every day, or spiritual > matters? > > if so, i would be interested to hear if the > > guidance has been helpful to you. > > i have noticed that i often get the same > > hexagrams over and over for a certain period > > of time. probably there is a logical and > > scientific explanation for it, but i am > > more interested in the implications of this > > from a spiritual perspective. > > any thoughts? > > diane __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 26 Mar 2000 22:24:38 -0600 From: omei shan Subject: Re: HEX8: practical i ching >hi marianne. the >book you mention is called _the tao of chaos_ >in english, if it is the same one i have >looked at. it deals with the i ching and >dna, and perhaps some other things. >yes, indeed, has anyone here read that? > I've read it - It's a *great* book! Monica ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 01:04:00 -0800 From: Ray Langley Subject: Re: HEX8: Re: months, moons and celestial mechanix oftheAncients > Hard to "copy-paste" them - It's a bunch of diagrams. > > That's why I remain quite on so many fronts - I understand and use the I > Ching in mostly non-verbal terms - Think LOTS of pictures! Hard to > describe, harder to discuss! > > If you know a way around this, let me know. > Monica > >> I am more than willing to share my calendar and anything else I think I > >> know about the I Ching with anyone who is interested. Sorry my Web site is > >> not up yet, but I can mail copies to anyone who's interested. Once we've > >> got a "level-set," perhaps we can get a good discussion going. > >> Monica Hi Monica, if you would like to send the files to me privately, I will post them in the "Files Area" on my IChing_YiJing list on Onelist.com. I have 20 megs of storage space for situations like this. - -- Warmest Regards, Ray Have Luo Pan, Will Travel! ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 06:04:56 EST From: Autorbis@aol.com Subject: Re: HEX8: history and reality Hi Frank, << Hi Lothar, In the Wilhelm commentary for hexagrams 11, 31 and 41 are comments referring to the book being divided in half after hexagram 30 and their being sets of 10 which begin with 1, 11, etc. ## I've looked there in the German edition. I did found only a very small comment in 31. I've looked at Part I and Part III. (?) ### The Imperial Edition of 1716 was the official compilation of all the known earlier commentaries. I guess it is a personal choice whether to accept the one set of work intended to be the ultimate expression or to prefer to find the original usage on the grounds that primacy is somehow special. ### I think, the situation is as follows: Action 1: Steve stated, that the numerology of I-Ching (that means the numbers used in relation to hexagrams) were invented by Western influence, so being a rather modern invention. Action 2: I was totally astonished by this statement. Action 3: You stated, that the Imperial Edition of 1716 noted this numerology, which I wouldn't call a "modern time", but it doesn't fit with my imagination of "coming from ancient history". Action 4: I still wondered, if there were not an earlier date for this numerology. Action 5: you answered .... see above Well, it might be a compilation of older works, but still is there the question, of which older work this special numerology derived. If Steve is right with his statement about a "modern origin", then a speculation about a relationship to Pythagorean ideas seems rather meaningless .... So it be necessary, first to control this condition. How old is this numerology? What do we know about its origin? ### ### Perhaps one of our specialists in these questions knows an answer? ### Personally, I suspect all symbolism is based upon the synapse structure of the brain and the resultant patterns of the mind. Therefore, what is first or more ancient since it all relates to the same basic wiring inside our heads is not of much importance. The hexagrams of the Yi are intriguing in this context since they make it possible to generate meaning from line value or synapse pattern without requiring a coding system such as Morse code or computer language. This would also explain your binary insights, as all symbols ultimately must relate to brain synapse patterns which in their simplest form are switches on or off, that is basic binary. I thought I read your list as 1-3-7 which is the Max number you can write in a one, two or 3 digit binary system. ### Sorry, this structure was not meant in my letter. ### The 1-3- 6 is a Pythagorean set made of 1,2,3 dots in rows which make a triangle and if you take the sum of the total for each row you get 1,3,6 (and of course adding the next row of 4 you get the Tetraktys). ### Sorry, this structure was also not meant in my letter with 1-3-6. The structure that I refered to has nothing to do "taking a sum" or "dots in rows", as used in in the Pythogerean Tetraktys. ### ### Sorry :-), there is an misunderstanding. Perhaps my unperfect English did cause this trouble, but in the moment I can't see the error in my writing. Perhaps another reading of my letter might help the trouble. If not, perhaps we should try together to get out of that trap. ## ### It also has nothing to do with the "synapse structure of the brain". It's a very simple mathematical structure, which obviously could be used by the brain, but this isn't the essence of it. ### I did gave 3 examples of the 1-3-6-structure: one global (1 = total oneness; 3 = 3 lines in a trigram; 6 = 6 lines in a Trigram). Well this might be seen also in the sum of 1 + 2 + 3 dots as the results line (in a rather special way), but my real object in these letters are the "32 ways of wisdom", in which the 1-3-6 appears in two ways (double letters + mothers and 10 Sephiroth). As the hexagram objects for "double letters" refer clearly in the global view to the six lines and the total of the general hexagram (see my letters) and the hexagram objects (the double-trigram-hexagrams) for the 3 mothers clearly to the 3 lines of trigram, I added also the global aspect, but .... I feel a little unsure, if I was misunderstood. Best wishes Lothar ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 06:21:07 -0600 From: "jayem" Subject: Re: HEX8: Re: months, moons and celestial mechanix oftheAncients Hi Monica, I could add your calendar to my site, under your name of course, linked to the Path Guides section (where the I Ching stuff is). I have unlimited space so it wouldn't be a problem. ~Jay~ www.crosswinds.net/~jayem (Your URL would be the above + /guides/whatever-you-name-it.htm) Or there's X-Drive, where you can get a free 25MB file storage space on the Internet and allow others access if you want to. I have a link to them in my Computer Stuff section. > Hard to "copy-paste" them - It's a bunch of diagrams. > > That's why I remain quite on so many fronts - I understand and use the I > Ching in mostly non-verbal terms - Think LOTS of pictures! Hard to > describe, harder to discuss! > > If you know a way around this, let me know. > Monica > >> I am more than willing to share my calendar and anything else I think I > >> know about the I Ching with anyone who is interested. Sorry my Web site is > >> not up yet, but I can mail copies to anyone who's interested. Once we've > >> got a "level-set," perhaps we can get a good discussion going. > >> Monica ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 16:30:34 From: steve@fortstudy.win-uk.net (Steve Moore) Subject: Re: HEX8: history and reality Hi Lothar, Following Frank's suggestion, I've also been looking through Wilhelm's edition for the hexagrams being "sets of ten". There's some material in Book III, under Hex 42, which refers to "ten changes" between hexes 31/32 and 41/42, and a similar "ten changes" between 1/2 and 11/12. This, of course, is commentary by Wilhelm; how much of it derives from him, or how much from Chinese tradition, I have no way of judging. I haven't spotted anything else (perhaps Frank can enlighten us with page numbers?). I didn't see any reference to the Imperial Edition here, nor a clear statement that the entirety of the book is divided into groups of ten as a whole in that edition. But maybe it says that somewhere and I just haven't found it yet. To go back to the whole "did Chinese editions number the hexagrams?" question: I've been looking at the 3 volume collection, "Yixue Jinghua" which photographically reproduces numerous older Chinese texts and commentaries of the Yi. None of these editions number the hexagrams. This whole idea surprised me when I first came across it too (pointed out by Scott Davis in an article for the Oracle), as I'd never really thought before about whether the Chinese numbered the hexagrams or not. But it does seem to be the case that they didn't. All the best, Steve ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 18:22:11 From: steve@fortstudy.win-uk.net (Steve Moore) Subject: Re: HEX8: Re: Ancient and modern, Chinese and Western Hi Frank, Many thanks for the courteous response ... although not having collected any email over the weekend, it seems to me as if the discussion has rather moved on from where we left it. Yes, of course we have different perspectives ... especially as I'm one of those "European scholars" (and worse, British!) :-) So please take all this as the expression of a different viewpoint, rather than a "right/wrong argument". Of course, it's always possible that I may have misunderstood what you're trying to do here. If what you're saying is something like: "I, Frank, have found a way of 'reading' and explaining the I Ching (and I can find the following in it ...)" then I have no problem, and I'd be the first to cheer you on. If you're saying something like "I believe that my interpretation shows how the Chinese originally constructed the I Ching and its system (etc.)" ... then I'd be looking for evidence to back this up: that the Chinese thought that way at that particular historical moment, that they had the "geometric technology" (for want of a better way of putting it) at that particular time, that it correlates with what we do know about the I Ching with reasonable historical certainty, and so on. Like I said, the discussion's moved on, so let me just pick up one point from your post here. I realise that the T'ai Chi symbol probably isn't a central part of your argument, but your views on it do bring up a methodological point (sorry, I'm being "European" again!) :-). True, there MAY have been versions of this symbol before the earliest extant representations we have, from around the 10th century AD or later ... and yes, I know the old saying about "absence of evidence is not evidence of absence", and all about the possibility of oral transmission, etc. The point is, though, that we don't KNOW that it existed before the extant examples, and if we want to suggest that it did, then its existence can only be assumed. And this seems to me to be rather a large assumption, especially if you want to carry it back a couple of thousand years. Now, playing around with assumptions may be fine for group discussion ... but if gets to the point where you want to make any formal, convincing presentation, and you're using the T'ai Chi symbol as part of it, then that means that one of the building blocks in your argument is an assumption, rather than what would be looked upon in a scholarly context as evidence. I'd have to count myself as one of those people who wouldn't find the argument convincing if it included unproven assumptions ... worse, it would make me wonder if, having spotted one assumption, there were any other assumptions in the argument. And that, in the briefest form, is why I think historical context, scholarly references, etc., are important. It's also why I think that any attempt to answer questions about the I Ching that arose in a Chinese context (such as the problem of the sequence) are probably best approached from a starting point in Chinese thought, rather than starting with what are assumed to be "universal" principles, such as geometry. All the best, Steve ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 13:32:16 -0500 From: "Gait, Christopher" Subject: RE: HEX8: Book request, WAS: history and reality Steve, Could you post the BIG-5 characters for that book title "Yixue Jinghua" or email them to me? Someone who works with me is going to China and I would love to be able to ask him to bring back something for me to study in the future when my Chinese is less abysmal. That sounds like a fantastic book to own. Regards, Chris Gait P.S. I've been a lurker for the last week or two, but I'm here on the list again. > -----Original Message----- > From: steve@fortstudy.win-uk.net [mailto:steve@fortstudy.win-uk.net] > Sent: Monday, March 27, 2000 11:31 AM > To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org > Subject: Re: HEX8: history and reality > > > Hi Lothar, > > Following Frank's suggestion, I've also been looking through > Wilhelm's edition for the hexagrams being "sets of ten". There's > some material in Book III, under Hex 42, which refers to "ten > changes" between hexes 31/32 and 41/42, and a similar "ten > changes" between 1/2 and 11/12. This, of course, is commentary by > Wilhelm; how much of it derives from him, or how much from Chinese > tradition, I have no way of judging. I haven't spotted anything else > (perhaps Frank can enlighten us with page numbers?). I didn't see > any reference to the Imperial Edition here, nor a clear statement > that the entirety of the book is divided into groups of ten as a > whole in that edition. But maybe it says that somewhere and I just > haven't found it yet. > > To go back to the whole "did Chinese editions number the hexagrams?" > question: I've been looking at the 3 volume collection, "Yixue > Jinghua" which photographically reproduces numerous older Chinese > texts and commentaries of the Yi. None of these editions number the > hexagrams. > > This whole idea surprised me when I first came across it too > (pointed out by Scott Davis in an article for the Oracle), as I'd > never really thought before about whether the Chinese numbered the > hexagrams or not. But it does seem to be the case that they didn't. > > All the best, > > Steve > > > > > > > ===== > To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to > majordomo@apocalypse.org > from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. > ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 22:10:53 -0600 From: omei shan Subject: Re: HEX8: Re: months, moons and celestial mechanix oftheAncients >Hi Monica, if you would like to send the files to me privately, I >will post them in the "Files Area" on my IChing_YiJing list on >Onelist.com. I have 20 megs of storage space for situations like this. > You've got my interest - What do I have to do? Monica ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 22:23:44 -0600 From: omei shan Subject: Re: HEX8: Re: Pythagoras and Universal number >> > Hi Monica, >> > >> > ## I think, a rather common idea in older time, not bery geniously. If you >> > you take a walk through the older mythologies .... you probably meet a lot >> > of things, which are rather similar. ## >> > > >Which ones? Studying ancient cultures and religions is a hobby of mine. > ## Perhaps I'll find the time to gather some up. I'm too busy at the > moment. ## Well, Lothar, I'm patient. Monica ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 01:46:05 EST From: FKegan@aol.com Subject: HEX8: Re: practical I ching oracles Hi Diane and Marianne, The Oracle of the I Ching seems to run on a spiritual need to know basis. That is, whatever you might ask, the oracle returns the answer that you need to hear. If there is a process which is a major issue for you, the oracle may continue to reply with that hexagram with the same or similar moving lines to further focus attention on that issue. Many times that isn't what one wants to hear, and it seems that the oracle is meaningless or mistaken. One of the ways to deal with such an impasse is to make a journal of the time and situation which you are casting the oracle about, the oracle you got and what it seems to be saying or why it seems to be saying nothing. The process of writing focuses your thought, and having things down on paper allows you come back at a later date when you can compare what you were expecting with what actually happened and perhaps note that although the oracle did not respond as you expected, it did make what from a calmer perspective could be seen as a meaningful response. Casting oracles for daily guidance requires a great deal of discipline and personal calm to be effective. One's expectations and other personal demands play havoc with the calm appreciation of the oracle response. For myself, I found that the more agitate I became the more intensely I sought answers from the oracle and the less I was able to accept or even interpret them. On one level, that is one of the advantages of working on the meaning, line structure or sequence of the hexagrams, they aren't personally connected to your gut and thus not likely to cause the emotional turmoil that a simple oracle may. Frank ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 02:06:16 EST From: FKegan@aol.com Subject: HEX8: Re: ancient and universal Hi Steve, Your responses are quite British, but as individuals Brits are quite charming, even though their philosophy can be a bit trying. I make no claim about what happened in actual history. The evidence keeps piling up that none of the claims of what happened long ago are actually valid, and more importantly, it seems that what is universal is that the human minds seems to reflect mostly its own structure and the knowledge available to humans seems ever more to be the same at all times with claims that today we know more or at some prior Golden Age they knew better being more emotional that provable. The actual construction of a painted geometric symbol I would not expect to be part of ancient China. If they could do such construction why would they need to use linear hexagrams as a graphic representation of a cyclic perspective? However, that doesn't mean that the philosophical and metaphysical concepts were unknown until they could find the graphic illustrator able to do justice to the drawings. Universals are tough on Europeans, they have such bad memories of all their folks who tried to make their own notions universal rather than deal with diversity. I actually come to the connection of Chinese and Pythagorean metaphysics the other way around. Researching each separately, the both end up in sets of 10 where the meaning of the numbers can be expressed by the simple dot patterns on dice. In the greater scheme of things I could claim such an explanation of the sequence of the hexagrams and the meanings of the individual hexagrams from the line patterns was my own insight, but it seems I have only noted what has been used in many systems throughout time around the globe. The real excitement, I find at this point, is being able to see what seems like abstruse and even meaningless old poetry and commentary as being a quite rational, straightforward expression of simple principles which are more obvious than based on what happened to be executed in some particular century and then lost in some way that it was available to be dug up rather than used and replaced as most things are in the normal course of events. Frank ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 23:27:11 -0800 From: Ray Langley Subject: HEX8: Monica's special files, was: months, moons, etc. > >Hi Monica, if you would like to send the files to me privately, I > >will post them in the "Files Area" on my IChing_YiJing list on > >Onelist.com. I have 20 megs of storage space for situations like this. > > > You've got my interest - What do I have to do? Monica Hi Monica. Piece of cake. Send me the files in just about any graphic file format imaginable, and I will post them to the "Files Area" of the IChing_YiJing mailing list. Click here to register and become a member: IChing_YiJing-subscribe@onelist.com We now have 81 members. The list archives are for members only, but if you would like to post something of interest for the members of the Hex-8 list, I will make the "Files Area" open to the public for a few weeks..... Also, with Ron's permission, I will post a "Download Tutorial" on how to access, read, and download files from Onelist. The tutorial includes links for free downloadable Microsoft "readers" from the Microsoft Web Page.... for those who do not have "Word"..... - -- Warmest Regards, Ray Have Luo Pan, Will Travel! ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 06:18:21 EST From: FKegan@aol.com Subject: HEX8: loose ends Hi Jorge, Lothar, Monica, et al. The references to the I Ching being divided in half after hexagram 30 and arranged in sets of 10 with the hexagrams ending in 1 being the exemplar of the set are just tiny notes, mostly in Book III of Wilhelm. The organization of the sequence is delightfully elegant and matters not at all if the individual hexagrams are given cardinal numbers or taken as a series, which puts each hexagram at the same number, just as an ordinal, 36th not 36. The nifty part is that the meaning of the hexagram, given by the name, the line pattern, the sequence or the correlation with other systems all work together and embellish one another so that the problems of the various texts and translations can be resolved in the interplay. The names I gave the hexagrams remain a bit fluid and include other words of closely the same sound: first set: Sunshine, Homeland,Strikes, Pupal, Watering, Striving, Filling In, Open Field, Treads. Second set: Dreamland, No Exit, Love Song, True Gold (Goaled), Churning, Singing, Tracking, Ferment, Coming Together, Models. Third set: Digging In, Highlights, Fall's Down, Spring's Back, Naivete, Virgin Land, Nursing, HIgh Overhead, Deep Depths, Flaming Light. Fourth set: Moonshine, Old Faithful, Flight, Plows, Rising Sun (son), Setting Son (sun), Homing, Screens (Screams), Valley Forge, Re-lease (relax). Fifth set: Sacrifice, Blessing, Overwhelming, Lady Luck, Deep Filling (Feeling), Unfurling, Tapped Out (missing), Mine, Molten Gold (Goals). Altar. 6th set: Swooping, Peaked, Diamond Cutting, Chasing Rainbows, Total Solar Eclipse (fireworks), Just Passing, Streaks, Contents, Solution, Lining. The last four: Love's Root (Route), Razor's Edge, Morning (Mourning) After, Eve For me, the most intriguing part of correlating the Tetraktys to the sets of 10 of the I Ching is that it replaces the apparent simplicity of each even hexagram being the line-for-line inverse of the preceding odd hexagram. The apparent polarity of hexagrams 1 and 2, 11 and 12 get replaced by the 1 hexagrams being taken as the unit for the set, and the pair of 2 &3 being the polar opposite dichotomy from static structure to active energy. And then on from there in a run of three and a balanced foursome 7,8,9, 10. Quantum mechanics and relativity always struck me as rather the reductio ad absurdum of western science. It wasn't until I ran across a translation of Aquinas' commentary upon Aristotle's Physics that I was able to explain it. Aristotle was neither a philosopher nor a scientist though he may well have been trained as a physician. He taught forensic rhetoric, how to win court cases and persuade government. His law of the excluded middle was just the notion that if you can keep an argument framed as your position and negating your position you are well on your way to winning. Aristotle's rhetoric was forbidden in the Scholastic University as pagan elegance. Aquinas' translated him as the Philosopher describing how God constructed the world, and in the process created the set of academic sciences which turn out to be not Aristotle, but the views of Aquinas. What is strange is that they became established as Truth, and although everyone starts by assuming their work "overturns" Aristotle, Galileo, Newton, and even Einstein all obey Aquinas' basic outlines for what is physics? Relativity and Quantum get so complex and sound so anti-intuitive because they are the ways to fit current sophisticated observation back into medieval Scholastic theory. Jorge, since you are a Porteno, I understand your chau. Chau, che Frank ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 12:27:26 From: steve@fortstudy.win-uk.net (Steve Moore) Subject: Re: RE: HEX8: Book request, WAS: history and reality Hi Chris, Unfortunately, I'm one of the few people in the universe who still has a really antiquated email system that can't do anything except send plain text (it's not web-based, and can't handle attachments). So this would be difficult. Do you have Mathews' Chinese-English Dictionary? If you do, I can send you the numbers of the characters with reference to that. All the best, Steve >Steve, > >Could you post the BIG-5 characters for that book title "Yixue Jinghua" or >email them to me? Someone who works with me is going to China and I would >love to be able to ask him to bring back something for me to study in the >future when my Chinese is less abysmal. That sounds like a fantastic book to >own. ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 12:44:31 From: steve@fortstudy.win-uk.net (Steve Moore) Subject: Re: HEX8: Re: ancient and universal Hi Frank, About this: > I make no claim about what happened in actual history. The evidence >keeps piling up that none of the claims of what happened long ago are >actually valid, I'm sorry you seem to have a problem with orthodox scholarship, but if you think it's okay to reject what we know of the historical record, and the findings of modern scholarship in sinology, archaeology, etc., then I guess we're "speaking different languages", and probably don't have a lot to say to each other. Maybe we can have a meaningful conversation in a future life! :-) All the best, Steve ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 10:33:48 -0500 From: "Gait, Christopher" Subject: RE: RE: HEX8: Book request, WAS: history and reality That would be fine. I don't have Matthews, but there are web resources through http://www.zhongwen.com where I can get Matthews numbers. Thanks! Chris Gait > -----Original Message----- > From: steve@fortstudy.win-uk.net [mailto:steve@fortstudy.win-uk.net] > Sent: Tuesday, March 28, 2000 7:27 AM > To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org > Subject: Re: RE: HEX8: Book request, WAS: history and reality > > > Hi Chris, > > Unfortunately, I'm one of the few people in the universe who still > has a really antiquated email system that can't do anything except > send plain text (it's not web-based, and can't handle > attachments). So this would be difficult. > > Do you have Mathews' Chinese-English Dictionary? If you do, I can > send you the numbers of the characters with reference to that. > > All the best, > > Steve > > > >Steve, > > > >Could you post the BIG-5 characters for that book title > "Yixue Jinghua" or > >email them to me? Someone who works with me is going to > China and I would > >love to be able to ask him to bring back something for me to > study in the > >future when my Chinese is less abysmal. That sounds like a > fantastic book to > >own. > > > > > > ===== > To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to > majordomo@apocalypse.org > from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. > ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 13:59:47 EST From: FKegan@aol.com Subject: HEX8: let's not fight the Opium Wars again Hi Steve, You certainly are British!. No, I don't care much about archeology or its more general term grave robbing and most of what I have read of "Sinology" is more British arrogance than objective research. I do care about the I Ching and symbol systems. If you can only converse within the confines of what is accepted at British Univers