From owner-hexagram-8-digest@apocalypse.org Mon Mar 13 11:09:46 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA18608 for hexagram-8-digest-outgoing; Mon, 13 Mar 2000 11:09:46 -0500 Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2000 11:09:46 -0500 Message-Id: <200003131609.LAA18608@apocalypse.org> X-Authentication-Warning: apocalypse.org: majordom set sender to owner-hexagram-8-digest@apocalypse.org using -f From: owner-hexagram-8-digest@apocalypse.org (hexagram-8-digest) To: hexagram-8-digest@apocalypse.org Subject: hexagram-8-digest V1 #158 Reply-To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Sender: owner-hexagram-8-digest@apocalypse.org Errors-To: owner-hexagram-8-digest@apocalypse.org Precedence: bulk hexagram-8-digest Monday, March 13 2000 Volume 01 : Number 158 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 13:11:14 -0800 From: Ron Hale-Evans Subject: HEX8: READ ME: Hex8 archives Hex8ers-- Because of space considerations at Apocalypse, I have taken down the old archives for the list from 1995 to 1999 at and re-uploaded them in tarred and gzipped form. Each *.tar.gz file contains all the posts for that year. In order to read the archives in their new format on a Unix or Linux computer, you will need the utilities tar and gzip. On the Macintosh, you can use StuffIt Expander and DropStuff, and on Windows you can use Aladdin Expander and DropStuff; all of these are available from at no charge (DropStuff is technically shareware). I believe you can also use MindExpander on the Mac, and there are ports of tar and gzip to both platforms if you know where to look. Some versions of PKZip on the PC may also handle *.tar.gz files. I have also deleted a few of the *.gif.uue files and so on from a member in 1995 who subsequently disappeared. The GIFs were technical and abstract, to say the least, and no one has discussed them on list since way back when, but if anyone misses them, let me know and I'll replace them. File permissions seem to have gotten screwed up recently for Hex8. I can't read the archives starting with January 2000, but I have been in contact with the maintainers at Apocalypse and that problem should be fixed shortly. If you have any problems, please let me know. Ron List admin - -- Ron Hale-Evans: rwhe@apocalypse.org ... Center for Ludic Synergy: Kennexions GBG artgame: Hexagram-8 I Ching Mailing List: Positive Revolution FAQ: ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 16:48:51 -0500 From: Kevin M Renaud Subject: Re: HEX8: Silk Route Namaste. Just some thoughts. Probably of no interest, but..... By the time the Greeks got info on Polarity Theory, it was so corrupt as to be unrecognizable. To find anything meaningful, I have had to go back to Egypt. The philo-wars in Greece were political, not philosophical, having much more to do with where the power would originate, and their use of Yijing related materials would have been used in much the same way as the Yi was used in later years to bolster failing empires. Any reading of the texts of the Yin/Yang School reflects the growing interest in governing issues like Population Management and Freedoms Suppression. It is unlikely that older texts of purer format exist, as it is well know that the Chinese have no problem burning history. From a Greek point of view, if you must, try out The Stone Monkey by Bruce Holbrook (out-of-print, as far as I know) which covers the material nicely, or any of the books in his bibliography. I imagine you will quickly come to the same point I did, though, this material is far too late and corrupt to be of any interest. I suggest the Vedic Texts, they are incredibly difficult to understand to the Western Mind, and the commentaries are useless, but with effort, they reveal glimpses of a much older Polarity Theory that is used as a technology source. The info sources much earlier, IMHO, to the time of about -25,000 or so, so any journeys made would have ended in the Egyptian Empire, since Greece would have been very primitive at this time (much as the Greeks found in Europe with the Celts a score of millennium later). The original Yi Jing info probably came from the area in and around Tibet and Central India, spreading from there east and west. There is no doubt the initial contacts between the originators of the Yi and the proto-human species occurred here (read the Vedic Histories, or the oral tradition of the Aussie Abbies, both contain the story). The information was intact in Egypt by -25,000, and was probably much the same in China, although if there is anything that old in China, the govt is keeping it under wraps, much the way the Egyptians closed the Sphinx as soon as it became widely known that it was most likely dated to this period. As to interaction between the two cultures, it is quite likely on several levels, there is a distinct similarity between written languages, and, as anyone who has activated the Yi knows, time/space is an irrelevant crutch that supports continued political enslavement of consciousness (opps, did I say that?). So Fu Xi would not have needed to go by silk route, he would have much more likely just "gone" in the same way that all immortals do (more on this, see materials on the most current research into the immortals, the work of Baird Spaulding, and the growing material on the Sai Baba come to mind, although there are many more I have seen). Of more interest to me on this matter, and perhaps I can get your feedback on this, is the Gaia concept which becomes so obvious when one looks at this in a world view way. If we look at Mother Gaia with Tibet and Central India as the middle of Her most beautiful face, then Egypt become right side/left brained and China resides in the left hand/right brain. Consider that if this info was passed centrally, as all information is, how it was absorbed on each "side" of her body/mind. BTW, I am looking for any info on Coral Castle in Homestead Fl, and it's builder. This is very Yi related, since the only way he could have built it would be with Polarity Theory Technology (the yijing). Also info on Wihelm Reich, particularly his connection to Jung (Jung was working with The Secret of The Golden Flower and the Yijing). His orgone technology, and any applications of it. Ankh On Sun, 6 Feb 2000 17:31:03 EST RCol547987@aol.com writes: > I would like to know if anyone here has any information in regards to > the oral > transmission of knowledge via the Silk Route PRIOR to Zhang Qian's > travels > (139 > BCE.) Although I am particularly interested in the similarities of > the > yin/yang-type of dialectic shared by both Chinese and Greek > philosophers > during the timespan of 600 BCE to 500 BCE, I would also be > interested in > hearing about other possible > contacts -- (someone here said earlier that the Egyptian Geb and Fu > Xi may be > one and the same person, for instance.) > > If Fu Xi was a real flesh and blood person who supposedly lived in > the > Tienshui > region of China (just off the Silk Route) do you think it was > possible for him > to traverse the hazardous terrain that might have ended at the > Mediterrian > Ocean? If not Fu Xi, can a strong case be built in favor of the > Yang Shao > (and/or other local tribes) trading with cultures to its west? > Nearly one > hundred > mumified human remains have be dug from the sands of the Taklimakan > desert -- > some cabon-dated to pre-2000 BCE (bearing Indo-Europen features -- > one whose > face was painted with Indo-Iranian sunray symbol ) but so far no > concrete > links > from the scientific community. > > Also is it possible that an even more ancient Silk Route existed, > along which > culural exchanges were made but then, over time, was erased by the > constantly > shifting desert sands? I would like to hear from anyone with ideas > or > information > about these possibilities. > > In peace, Roy > > > ===== > To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to > majordomo@apocalypse.org > from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 18:29:15 EST From: RCol547987@aol.com Subject: Re: HEX8: Silk Route Thank you for your reply re the Silk Route. I have gotten in touch with Victor Mair (translator of the Mawangdui Tao Te Ching) who I was referred to by the China Archareology site at upenn. Mair directed me to an article he wrote in Early China (1990) that deals with the oral transmission of knowledge along the Silk Route that predates the Shang. It is titled Old Sinitic Myag, Old Persian Magus and English Magician. >From what I gather so far, it appears that Persian magicians were responsible for much of the oral transmission of philosophic and magico-religious teachings across much of the near and far east. These magicians are the same people discussed in the Oracle Bone Script (the ones who were hired by the kings to do the divination) as well as the same magicians in royal courts across the continent. According to Mair, these Magi were not restricted to any one place but were hired out in Mesopotamia, Parthia, Bactria, Chorasmia, Aria, Media, Arabia, Egypt, Ethopia and Asia Minor. The Greeks were well aquainted with the Magi as well (according to the writings of Herodotus -- Some Greek and Latin sources believe that the Magi were followers of Zarathustra. The apparent route taken by the Magi appears to be via the northern steppes and along the eastern edges of the Gobi Desert to Anyang (during the Shang period.) During the Zhou period the route seems to have been along the foothills of the Altai and the western Celestial Mountains down to Shensi. The term Magi or Myag appears to be of Iranian origin. This information appears to be supported by additional archaeological evidence discovered by Sir Aurel Stein at Niya in the 1900's. Among his finds were hundreds of wooden documents written in Kharoschthi script ( Indian alphabet of 5th Century BCE) often used for Silk Road transactions. There is a wonderful article titled The Silk Road's Lost World in National Geographic (vol 189, March 1996) In peace, Roy ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 20:52:04 -0600 From: omei shan Subject: Re: HEX8: Silk Route >Also info on >Wihelm Reich, particularly his connection to Jung (Jung was working with >The Secret of The Golden Flower and the Yijing). His orgone technology, >and any applications of it. > Wilhelm Reich wrote a (BOR-ING) book titled "The Function of the Orgasm." John Conger wrote a book titled "Jung and Reich: The Body as Shadow," a specualtive conversation between Jung and Reich. Monica ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 18:17:45 -0800 From: Ray Langley Subject: HEX8: Review, East-West Calendar REVIEW, "The East-West Calendar, Year of the Dragon, 2000" This review of the above product is being presented to the Feng Shui, Chinese Astrology, and I Ching/Yi Jing communities by Ray Langley. All comments and statements are purely the opinion of the reviewer. I have no commercial interests or affiliation with the organization producing this calendar. First Look: It is big! It cost $3.20 USD to send this package about 100 miles via U.S. Priority Mail. The calendar is approximately 11 X 17 inches in size. There is a large wood-cut print of a dragon on the front cover. The Back Cover: shows small thumbnail sketches of the 13 exquisite watercolor prints that appear on the inside. The back cover also contains a description of the calendar: "The East-West Calendar combines the artistic talents of Master Y. C. Chiang and Professor Hui Liu. It also contains traditional information from the Chinese Almanac (Ray: Tong Shu), which in turn was based on the Chou Yi (Ray: Zhouyi), the fabled Book of Changes, from the dawn of China's civilization. Information from the Almanac has assisted wise people for centuries in the selection of dates and times for auspicious and inauspicious actions. By observing the black dates one can avoid misfortune; by consulting the red dates, one can maximize Nature's invisible support for favorable outcomes." The calendar gives lunar dates as well as Buddhist observances and other national and cultural holidays. The black and red dates refer to the fact that auspicious events are printed in red ink. On the inside: The calendar contains 13 months from January 2000 to January 2001. Each month contains a lovely watercolor print that is suitable for framing. Most of the artwork contains such tranquil subjects as flowers in bloom, birds, bamboo, and kittens. Unfortunately, a print of the Golden Dragon is conspicuously missing. Each piece of artwork contains an inspirational quote in both Chinese and English. The quote for January is "When personal virtue is valued, the right Tao will flourish." The quote for February is, "Ask much of yourself, be compassionate with others." The actual calendar: contains translations from the Tong Shu for the most auspicious times and days for many events and actions. It also contains the four phases of the moon, and the 24 Seasonal Points of the Solar Calendar. Here is a sample from the calendar for the next few days (February 17-20). Rather than writing the words auspicious and inauspicious over and over, I will just say good and bad in the interest of brevity. Thursday - February 17. This is a good day to repair the road and to set the stove. The best times are 3-7 am, and 3-7 pm. This is a bad day for a burial or setting the door. Friday - February 18. This is a good day for marriage, moving, or for a grand opening. The best times are 9-1 pm, and 5-9 pm. This is a bad day to set the stove, or for building. Saturday - February 19. This day is highlighted in red ink. In general, this is a "good day". Also noted is that today is "Yu Shui" or "Rains Begin" in the Chinese Solar Calendar. The Full Moon Symbol also shows us that this is the 15th day of the Lunar Month. This is a good day for moving, setting the door, setting the bed, and for making offerings. The best times are 5-7 am, 9-1 pm, and 5-7 pm. This is a bad day for setting the stove, or for conducting a grand opening. Sunday - February 20. This is a good day to make offerings, see the doctor, and to pacify evil. The best times are 1-3 am, and 7-1 pm. This is a bad day to have a celebration. If you want more, I guess you'll just have to buy this calendar. In this reviewers opinion, this is a quality product at a fair price. For Feng Shui practitioners this calendar will help you answer some of your client's questions, such as: When is the best day to open my business? When is a good time to set the foundation for my new house? When should I move into my new house? What is a good day to plant my roses? When should I get married? (Ray: The answer is *NEVER*!!!) There are several other methods for choosing auspicious dates and times, but unless you can read Chinese, you probably don't know any of them. Millions of Chinese throughout the world rely upon the advice in the Tong Shu. This advice is now available to the millions of English speaking peoples on this planet. There are other English translations available but this reviewer doesn't know of any at this low price. Bottom Line: Highly Recommended. I will use this. For more information, or to order, contact: Wen Wu School 10124 San Pablo Avenue El Cerrito, CA 94530 USA Email Contact: Loc Huynh everythingisok@mindspring.com Price: $15.00 USD - -- Warmest Regards, Ray Have Luo Pan, Will Travel! ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 10:05:30 -0300 From: "Ely Britto" Subject: Re: HEX8: Review, East-West Calendar Hi Ray, Thanks for the calendar's Review, I will tell interested people about it. It seems a beautiful piece! Love Ely ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 07:47:44 -0800 From: Ray Langley Subject: Re: HEX8: Review, East-West Calendar > Hi Ray, > Thanks for the calendar's Review, I will tell interested people > about it. > It seems a beautiful piece! > Love > Ely Thanks Ely! In this group, we would simply consult the Yi to know the best "time" for a particular action. :-) In retrospect, I installed a new front door on a day that was "bad to set door". I caught the worst flu I've ever had! Monday is not a good day to get married, so leave that guy standing at the altar!!! LOL - -- Warmest Regards, Ray Have Luo Pan, Will Travel! ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 15:31:09 -0800 From: wayne_rebecca Subject: HEX8: book available Hi, If anyone's looking for this book... http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=265752308 wayne - -- Wayne & Rebecca Lowry Springfield, Oregon wayne_rebecca@iname.com ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2000 14:07:31 +0000 From: Andreas Schoter Subject: HEX8: Review of Omei I Ching Hi Folks, For those who don't get Steve Moore's excellent paper journal "The Oracle" I've just put my review of Monica Salyer's "Omei I Ching" on-line at my web site. Interested parties should surf over to: http://www.weft.telinco.co.uk/changes/reviews/omei.html All the Best Andreas ________________________________________________________________________ Dr Andreas Schöter Weft mailto:andreas@telinco.co.uk http://www.weft.telinco.co.uk ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2000 23:27:51 -0600 From: omei shan Subject: Re: HEX8: Review of Omei I Ching Andreas! You are just TOO kind! You put the review on-line! I feel so honored, since mine is only the second review you've placed on your Web site! Thank you! Monica At 02:07 PM 02/28/2000 +0000, you wrote: >Hi Folks, > >For those who don't get Steve Moore's excellent paper journal "The Oracle" >I've just put my review of Monica Salyer's "Omei I Ching" on-line at my web >site. Interested parties should surf over to: > >http://www.weft.telinco.co.uk/changes/reviews/omei.html > >All the Best > >Andreas > >________________________________________________________________________ > Dr Andreas Schöter >Weft mailto:andreas@telinco.co.uk > http://www.weft.telinco.co.uk > > >===== >To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org >from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. > ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 05 Mar 2000 23:08:43 +0000 From: Ian Greely Subject: HEX8: Off topic. Mailing lists... Sorry to post this to the list. Someone mentioned in a post to the list a site on the net which will run a mailing list. Alas due to yet another crash I no longer have that e-mail and find myself currently wanting to run a small mailing list. Anyone remember the name of the site? regards, Ian ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 05 Mar 2000 14:07:42 -0800 From: Ray Langley Subject: Re: HEX8: Off topic. Mailing lists... > Sorry to post this to the list. Someone mentioned in a post to the > list a site on the net which will run a mailing list. Alas due to yet > another crash I no longer have that e-mail and find myself currently > wanting to run a small mailing list. > > Anyone remember the name of the site? > > regards, > Ian Hi Ian. Onelist/eGroups hosts thousands of mailing lists. I have one on chineseastrology, ChineseFengShui, and IChing_Yijing. http://www.onelist.com/ - -- Warmest Regards, Ray Have Luo Pan, Will Travel! ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 5 Mar 2000 18:23:35 -0500 From: "pattique" Subject: Re: HEX8: Off topic. Mailing lists... You can try www.topica.com, I believe they have what you are looking for. Sincerely Pat Q - ----- Original Message ----- From: Ian Greely To: Sent: Sunday, March 05, 2000 6:08 PM Subject: HEX8: Off topic. Mailing lists... > Sorry to post this to the list. Someone mentioned in a post to the > list a site on the net which will run a mailing list. Alas due to yet > another crash I no longer have that e-mail and find myself currently > wanting to run a small mailing list. > > Anyone remember the name of the site? > > regards, > Ian > > > ===== > To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org > from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. > ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 12 Mar 2000 21:35:43 -0800 (PST) From: diane haldane Subject: HEX8: hi and i ching's personality hi ron, thanks for letting me join in, and hello everybody. i am looking forward to talking to others about their knowledge and experiences with the i ching. i keep going back to it, but i find i keep having a "personality clash" with all the interpretations i have found, or maybe i am having a clash with the i ching itself which seems to have its own personality. anyone else sense that, that it has a personality, or is that a personal quirk of mine? i keep coming back to it, though, so i am drawn. any recommendations on translations that anyone prefers? looking forward to more discussion. diane __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2000 00:02:37 -0800 From: "K" Subject: HEX8: Re: hi and i ching's personality Yes thank you Ron. Hello everyone. I have also found some translations to 'clash' with me as you have described. I think this is due primarily to the translator. Although if you really can't handle it, it may indeed signal a weakness of yours. The most friendly translation I have yet found is by Brian Browne Walker. If there is a friendlier translation, I would like to know about it! - ----- Original Message ----- From: "diane haldane" To: Sent: Sunday, March 12, 2000 9:35 PM Subject: HEX8: hi and i ching's personality > > hi ron, thanks for letting me join in, and > hello everybody. > i am looking forward to talking to others > about their knowledge and experiences with > the i ching. > i keep going back to it, but i find i keep > having a "personality clash" with all the > interpretations i have found, or maybe > i am having a clash with the i ching itself > which seems to have its own personality. > anyone else sense that, that it has a personality, or is that a personal quirk of mine? i keep > coming back to it, though, so i am drawn. any recommendations on translations that anyone prefers? > looking forward to more discussion. diane ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2000 08:07:26 +0000 From: Ian J Greely Subject: Re: HEX8: Re: hi and i ching's personality Hmm, Yes I've found the damn thing irritating and intractable at times. Or is that me? *frown* As to more friendly translations the translation used by Talis for thier talis I-Ching program (www.resonate.org) seems to be rather "PC" if you will. Personaly I prefer the more blunt translations of the I Ching that I've found. regards, Ian On Mon, 13 Mar 2000 00:02:37 -0800, you wrote: >Yes thank you Ron. Hello everyone. > >I have also found some translations to 'clash' with me as you have >described. I think this is due primarily to the translator. Although if you >really can't handle it, it may indeed signal a weakness of yours. > >The most friendly translation I have yet found is by Brian Browne Walker. If >there is a friendlier translation, I would like to know about it! > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "diane haldane" >To: >Sent: Sunday, March 12, 2000 9:35 PM >Subject: HEX8: hi and i ching's personality > > >> >> hi ron, thanks for letting me join in, and >> hello everybody. >> i am looking forward to talking to others >> about their knowledge and experiences with >> the i ching. >> i keep going back to it, but i find i keep >> having a "personality clash" with all the >> interpretations i have found, or maybe >> i am having a clash with the i ching itself >> which seems to have its own personality. >> anyone else sense that, that it has a personality, or is that a personal >quirk of mine? i keep >> coming back to it, though, so i am drawn. any recommendations on >translations that anyone prefers? >> looking forward to more discussion. diane > > > > >===== >To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org >from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2000 06:45:43 EST From: Autorbis@aol.com Subject: HEX8: I-Ching-pages Hi all, I'm on the way to create my own homepage and wish to include a page with the best links to I-Ching-pages or best sources of information about chinese history and literature. Does anybody knows or has opinions about the "MUSTs" in this field? Thanks Lothar ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2000 04:52:48 -0800 (PST) From: diane haldane Subject: Re: HEX8: Re: hi and i ching's personality hi k, thanks for your recommendation. could you elaborate on what you mean by my "clash" with the i ching being a weakness of mine? you've piqued my curiousity! thanks, diane ~~~~~~~ - --- K wrote: > I have also found some translations to 'clash' with me as you have > described. I think this is due primarily to the translator. Although if you > really can't handle it, it may indeed signal a weakness of yours. > > The most friendly translation I have yet found is by Brian Browne Walker. If > there is a friendlier translation, I would like to know about it! > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "diane haldane" > > i keep going back to it, but i find i keep > > having a "personality clash" with all the > > interpretations i have found, or maybe > > i am having a clash with the i ching itself > > which seems to have its own personality. > > anyone else sense that, that it has a personality, or is that a personal > quirk of mine? __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2000 10:28:10 -0300 From: "Ely Britto" Subject: Re: HEX8: Re: hi and i ching's personality - ->hi k, thanks for your recommendation. could >you elaborate on what you mean by my "clash" >with the i ching being a weakness of mine? >you've piqued my curiousity! thanks, diane Hi Daine, I am an old member of this list, my name is Ely, (and i am a woman). I am from Brazil, I am a writer, I Ching's teacher and Instructor of Chinese Inner Alchemy. I've been teaching people for mre then 15 years. My experience about what you are feeling is that this is a normal phase of the study of the I Ching. The crash of the personality must happens so you can build up a new way to see reality, life and changes. Unless you will use the I Ching like a dead tool to just to add more concepts to yours already full mind, this crash is the most healthy thing that could happens to you and it is very good. Just take the example of a house, you have al old house and if you want to rebuild it many things must be firstly crashed. In the I Ching this "crash and rebuilding" is well represented in the meaning of the two hexagrams, 23 and 24. This is a law of change and never weakness. If you want to look at it thinking it is weakness, I would say that weakness is the Yin part of nature, the one we do not want to feel but at the same time the only one that can freed us from the domain of concepts, intellect and common mind. The pure mind that will give you a pure perception and new perspective of the world can only be installed by the "crash"of the old patterns that have being guiding your life do far. No probelm with translations, trey to understand the structure of the book, the combination of the Yin and yang lines and what make them move to another situation and you will be able to *read* the lines and do your own perception fo the laws acting in nature and your life. I am finishing the translation of my homepage to English language, you can take a look at the graphics and meditate upon them. www.healing-tao.com.br Try to find a xerox copy of Steve Moore book "The Trigrams of Han" or a very cute and ease illustrated book named "The I Ching - an illustraded guide of the Chinese Art of Divination" and you will be able to learn the structure of the I Ching. Think about the lines and its combination, study them using more your own inner feeling then your mind and you will be able to "feel" the structure acting in all the thousands things around you and in the hexagrams. You are in the right path, don't fear, let it go, don't listen to critics about your own perception of lofe, just keep in touch with the movements of change, in everything that moves and do not moves around you. learn about changes not about books. You will find out soon, what this incredible book is talking about. Be welcome and be brave Ely Britto www.healing-tao.com.br >~~~~~~~ >--- K wrote: >> I have also found some translations to 'clash' with me as you have >> described. I think this is due primarily to the translator. Although if you >> really can't handle it, it may indeed signal a weakness of yours. >> >> The most friendly translation I have yet found is by Brian Browne Walker. If >> there is a friendlier translation, I would like to know about it! >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "diane haldane" >> > i keep going back to it, but i find i keep >> > having a "personality clash" with all the >> > interpretations i have found, or maybe >> > i am having a clash with the i ching itself >> > which seems to have its own personality. >> > anyone else sense that, that it has a personality, or is that a personal >> quirk of mine? >__________________________________________________ >Do You Yahoo!? >Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. >http://im.yahoo.com > > >===== >To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org >from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2000 10:30:32 -0300 From: "Ely Britto" Subject: Re: HEX8: Re: hi and i ching's personality - ->hi k, thanks for your recommendation. could >you elaborate on what you mean by my "clash" >with the i ching being a weakness of mine? >you've piqued my curiousity! thanks, diane Hi Daine, I am an old member of this list, my name is Ely, (and i am a woman). I am from Brazil, I am a writer, I Ching's teacher and Instructor of Chinese Inner Alchemy. I've been teaching people for mre then 15 years. My experience about what you are feeling is that this is a normal phase of the study of the I Ching. The crash of the personality must happens so you can build up a new way to see reality, life and changes. Unless you will use the I Ching like a dead tool to just to add more concepts to yours already full mind, this crash is the most healthy thing that could happens to you and it is very good. Personality os not your real being, the world persona from where this world cames means "mask". It is that mask that is *crashing*. Just take the example of a house, you have al old house and if you want to rebuild it many things must be firstly crashed. In the I Ching this "crash and rebuilding" is well represented in the meaning of the two hexagrams, 23 and 24. This is a law of change and never weakness. If you want to look at it thinking it is weakness, I would say that weakness is the Yin part of nature, the one we do not want to feel but at the same time the only one that can freed us from the domain of concepts, intellect and common mind. The pure mind that will give you a pure perception and new perspective of the world can only be installed by the "crash"of the old patterns that have being guiding your life do far. No probelm with translations, trey to understand the structure of the book, the combination of the Yin and yang lines and what make them move to another situation and you will be able to *read* the lines and do your own perception fo the laws acting in nature and your life. I am finishing the translation of my homepage to English language, you can take a look at the graphics and meditate upon them. www.healing-tao.com.br Try to find a xerox copy of Steve Moore book "The Trigrams of Han" or a very cute and ease illustrated book named "The I Ching - an illustraded guide of the Chinese Art of Divination" and you will be able to learn the structure of the I Ching. Think about the lines and its combination, study them using more your own inner feeling then your mind and you will be able to "feel" the structure acting in all the thousands things around you and in the hexagrams. You are in the right path, don't fear, let it go, don't listen to critics about your own perception of lofe, just keep in touch with the movements of change, in everything that moves and do not moves around you. learn about changes not about books. You will find out soon, what this incredible book is talking about. Be welcome and be brave Ely Britto www.healing-tao.com.br >~~~~~~~ >--- K wrote: >> I have also found some translations to 'clash' with me as you have >> described. I think this is due primarily to the translator. Although if you >> really can't handle it, it may indeed signal a weakness of yours. >> >> The most friendly translation I have yet found is by Brian Browne Walker. If >> there is a friendlier translation, I would like to know about it! >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "diane haldane" >> > i keep going back to it, but i find i keep >> > having a "personality clash" with all the >> > interpretations i have found, or maybe >> > i am having a clash with the i ching itself >> > which seems to have its own personality. >> > anyone else sense that, that it has a personality, or is that a personal >> quirk of mine? >__________________________________________________ >Do You Yahoo!? >Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. >http://im.yahoo.com > > >===== >To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org >from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2000 10:38:37 -0300 From: "Ely Britto" Subject: Re: HEX8: Re: hi and i ching's personality Sorry for my English mistakes and the erro in typing your name Diane. Light Ely ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2000 08:17:45 -0800 From: "K" Subject: Re: HEX8: Re: hi and i ching's personality Forgive me I misspoke myself I think. I merely meant that if some aspect of a perceived 'personality' of the translation left one feeling 'clashed' upon it might either be a weakness of the translation in conveying the meaning of the lines or a weakness in one's ability to comprehend that meaning. In either case, there is no weak without a strong, so clearly all translations have value. When I was carrying the book around with me everywhere I went, I carried at least two copies; one comfortable and familiar, and another as obscure and as impenetrable as I knew of. Worked for me, your mileage may vary. ^-^ - ----- Original Message ----- From: "diane haldane" To: Sent: Monday, March 13, 2000 4:52 AM Subject: Re: HEX8: Re: hi and i ching's personality > > hi k, thanks for your recommendation. could > you elaborate on what you mean by my "clash" > with the i ching being a weakness of mine? > you've piqued my curiousity! thanks, diane ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ End of hexagram-8-digest V1 #158 ******************************** From owner-hexagram-8-digest@apocalypse.org Sat Mar 18 11:41:07 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA00924 for hexagram-8-digest-outgoing; Sat, 18 Mar 2000 11:41:07 -0500 Date: Sat, 18 Mar 2000 11:41:07 -0500 Message-Id: <200003181641.LAA00924@apocalypse.org> X-Authentication-Warning: apocalypse.org: majordom set sender to owner-hexagram-8-digest@apocalypse.org using -f From: owner-hexagram-8-digest@apocalypse.org (hexagram-8-digest) To: hexagram-8-digest@apocalypse.org Subject: hexagram-8-digest V1 #159 Reply-To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Sender: owner-hexagram-8-digest@apocalypse.org Errors-To: owner-hexagram-8-digest@apocalypse.org Precedence: bulk hexagram-8-digest Saturday, March 18 2000 Volume 01 : Number 159 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2000 08:34:19 -0800 (PST) From: diane haldane Subject: Re: HEX8: Re: hi and i ching's personality k, thanks for the clarification of what you meant by weakness. thanks also to ely for your thoughts and informations. this "clash" reminds me of the shock i went through when i first encountered the concept of "maya" in hinduism. i was very depressed and confused, but once i understood the concept better, it was actually a relief! i recently have gone through the same thing in my current studies of gnosticism. the ideas are so different it has been difficult to grasp. but i think i have made a breakthrough there too. so i will persist with the i ching. it does make sense that i have to destroy some ideas in order to make room for others. thanks to both of you for the encouragement! regards, diane - --- K wrote: > Forgive me I misspoke myself I think. I merely meant that if some aspect of > a perceived 'personality' of the translation left one feeling 'clashed' upon > it might either be a weakness of the translation in conveying the meaning of > the lines or a weakness in one's ability to comprehend that meaning. > > In either case, there is no weak without a strong, so clearly all > translations have value. When I was carrying the book around with me > everywhere I went, I carried at least two copies; one comfortable and > familiar, and another as obscure and as impenetrable as I knew of. Worked > for me, your mileage may vary. ^-^ > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "diane haldane" > > > > hi k, thanks for your recommendation. could > > you elaborate on what you mean by my "clash" > > with the i ching being a weakness of mine? > > you've piqued my curiousity! thanks, diane > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2000 15:57:34 -0600 From: Charlie Higgins Subject: HEX8: Re: Cyrille Javery's history of the YJ A while back an aquaintance of mine through email sent me an addendum to the concordance of R&K he made up which with his permission I offered to Hex8. Today I got the following email from him. I though you might be interested in it. Kirk, you will especially be interested in it since it is a synoposis on Javery's book. I would be interested in your remarks to him, as probably would others from Hex8 if you would care to cc it to us. He is not a member of Hex8 but hopefully will be in the future. Charlie Higgins Below is the email I received: - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Subject: Cyrille Javery's history of the YJ Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2000 16:44:26 -0500 From: Lare / Mo Lei-Li ( =?big5?B?svYguXAgsno=?= ) Organization: formerly c61819@gdi.net To: Charlie Higgins Hello, Charlie-- Long time no email. In case you haven't read it, thought you might be interested in a synoposis of Javery's book: http://home.att.net/~mo4/Javery.htm Thanks again for the Legge, - --Larry Moore / Mo Lei-Li ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2000 08:58:25 +0100 From: Kirk McElhearn Subject: Re: HEX8: Re: Cyrille Javery's history of the YJ On 13/03/00 22:57, Charlie Higgins chh@crcom.net is reported to have said: >A while back an aquaintance of mine through email sent me an addendum to >the concordance of R&K he made up which with his permission I offered to >Hex8. Today I got the following email from him. I though you might be >interested in it. > >Kirk, you will especially be interested in it since it is a synoposis on >Javery's book. Thanks for the info. Note that his name is spelled Javary. Kirk vice | versa Translations from French to English, English to French Traductions francais-anglais, anglais-francais kirk@mcelhearn.com http://www.mcelhearn.com Kirk McElhearn | Chemin de la Lauze | 05600 Guillestre | France O=c=O O=c=O O=c=O O=c=O O=c=O O=c=O O=c=O O=c=O FOSSIL FUELS = HEAVY WEATHER O=c=O O=c=O O=c=O O=c=O O=c=O O=c=O O=c=O O=c=O ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2000 12:01:25 EST From: FKegan@aol.com Subject: Re: HEX8: Re: hi and i ching's personality Hi Diane and Ely, The question of translations, of any book, and especially the I Ching is that you are getting the translator's slant. The Ancient Greeks called translators traitors, probably the American idiom would be to say translator is trashsayer. The I Ching is not a work of poetry, its essence is in the geometry of cycles described in number patterns. The imagery used to express or explain its patterns is always a bit of a tangent from the actual symbolism. The more a translation feels comfortable to a reader, the more it has taken off on a verbal tangent from the essential geometry. One pays for the comfort by the gap that develops between the words of the translation and the exact fit of an oracle to your situation. At some point you will find the words of the translation speaking of their interests and saying nothing to your oracle. The actual text of the I Ching is quite staccato, standard phrases of imagery and slogans. Gia-Fu Feng did a Taoist translation in the '70's (which I helped with the English phrasing, and finally got the copyright registered last year) which has a general content much like the Wilhelm/Baynes in specific translation only the four Chinese slogans they render as "Supreme Success Perseverance Furthers" Gia-Fu used "Primal Bliss Fruitful to Have Zest." Gia-Fu didn't write further commentary, and the original manuscript was rejected by his publisher at the time. The imagery of the I Ching is accessible through most translations, however, the meaning of that imagery in terms of the actual geometrical symbolism of the I Ching is only available through the ancient number patterns. Fortunately, they are basically the same in Pythagorean or astrological metaphysics; however, they are still very different from modern analytical geometry. The import of each hexagram can be felt in the simple dynamics of the focus in yang and background in yin taking their place in the first to sixth stages of universal cycle. The meaning of the hexagram which is trying to be described in their names is contained in their sequence, which number from the unit to 10 of which set from the simple water cycle of hexagrams 1-10 to the cosmic symbols of the set from 51 to 60 and then the all encompassing abstract symbolism of the last 4 hexagrams. Each of us constructs our own mix of personal relationship and technical infrastructure to frame our work with the I Ching. How much is to be gained by fighting with a translation that feels that it "clashes" and how much from taking comfort in one that doesn't is a decision having more to do with your own growth issues than with the text of the I Ching. Frank R. Kegan ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2000 19:32:31 +0100 From: "Thomas" Subject: Re: HEX8: Re: Cyrille Javery's history of the YJ Hi, I'm new to Hexagram-8, and live in Belgium. I use the I Ching in a rather psychological sense, I mean I don't believe that anything magic happens, but rather that the random phrases act on the mind to stimuate thinking, decision making and intuition like Zen koans. I love Chinese philosophy specially, and the later 10 Wings commentary of the I Ching is a very fine work of Chinese thought. I like Wang Bi's commentary too, as translated by Richard Lynn. I have a few ideas on: http://home.att.net/~mo4/Javery.htm ,it's an interesting and probably accurate summary of the history of the I Ching. I've actually had the opportunity to meet Cirylle Javary in Brussels. What's amazing in the chronology is that the "yin/yang broken/full" line visual hexagrams were invented some 500 years after the divination sayings. The graphic hexagrams came from the ideas of the Yin-Yang school around 300 BC. Yet the divination sayings came in groups of 6 from the very start in the Zhou period (800 BC): each line was associated with a number, similar to the system of 6,7;8;9 still used for the coin tossing. (There is evidence of this on Zhou bronze vessels). But there were no visual hexagram images then. Still later, during the Han dyansty, the trigrams were invented. (All this is explained in a French book edited by Cyrille: Les mutations du Yi King). Still there is a contradiction here because Cyrille Javary seems to date the Great Commentary (from the 10 Wings) to 400-300 BC, and the trigrams to 200BC or later, yet the trigrams are mentioned already in the Great Commetary. Angus Graham (in Disputers of the Tao) probably more correctly dates the Ten Wings to 200 BC, about the time of the discovery of the trigrams. And those later Han Taoist-Confucian inspired philosophers who wrote the ten Wings rewrote the whole I Ching history backwards, saying the order of discovery was: 1. the trigrams 2. the hexagrams 3. the line texts. Those ancient Chinese weren't so worried about historical accuracy...but about making the best cosmolgical sense. Thomas Visit my Confucius page: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Bridge/8744 ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2000 20:00:01 EST From: Autorbis@aol.com Subject: Re: HEX8: Re: Cyrille Javery's history of the YJ << Hi, I'm new to Hexagram-8, and live in Belgium. I use the I Ching in a rather psychological sense, I mean I don't believe that anything magic happens, but rather that the random phrases act on the mind to stimuate thinking, decision making and intuition like Zen koans. I love Chinese philosophy specially, and the later 10 Wings commentary of the I Ching is a very fine work of Chinese thought. I like Wang Bi's commentary too, as translated by Richard Lynn. I have a few ideas on: http://home.att.net/~mo4/Javery.htm ,it's an interesting and probably accurate summary of the history of the I Ching. I've actually had the opportunity to meet Cirylle Javary in Brussels. What's amazing in the chronology is that the "yin/yang broken/full" line visual hexagrams were invented some 500 years after the divination sayings. The graphic hexagrams came from the ideas of the Yin-Yang school around 300 BC. Yet the divination sayings came in groups of 6 from the very start in the Zhou period (800 BC): each line was associated with a number, similar to the system of 6,7;8;9 still used for the coin tossing. (There is evidence of this on Zhou bronze vessels). But there were no visual hexagram images then. Still later, during the Han dyansty, the trigrams were invented. (All this is explained in a French book edited by Cyrille: Les mutations du Yi King). Still there is a contradiction here because Cyrille Javary seems to date the Great Commentary (from the 10 Wings) to 400-300 BC, and the trigrams to 200BC or later, yet the trigrams are mentioned already in the Great Commetary. Angus Graham (in Disputers of the Tao) probably more correctly dates the Ten Wings to 200 BC, about the time of the discovery of the trigrams. And those later Han Taoist-Confucian inspired philosophers who wrote the ten Wings rewrote the whole I Ching history backwards, saying the order of discovery was: 1. the trigrams 2. the hexagrams 3. the line texts. Those ancient Chinese weren't so worried about historical accuracy...but about making the best cosmolgical sense. Thomas Visit my Confucius page: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Bridge/8744 >> Hi Thomas, nice to have you here. Actually the situation with these few old chinese documents doesn't allow any sure conclusion, if the trigram-idea was earlier or later than the hexagram-idea. You didn't mention, that there are various documents, which indicate, that in earlier time some other numbers are used than 6-7-8-9 to form an oracle result. Lothar ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2000 19:59:46 EST From: Autorbis@aol.com Subject: Re: HEX8: Re: hi and i ching's personality << The meaning of the hexagram which is trying to be described in their names is contained in their sequence, which number from the unit to 10 of which set from the simple water cycle of hexagrams 1-10 to the cosmic symbols of the set from 51 to 60 and then the all encompassing abstract symbolism of the last 4 hexagrams. Each of us constructs our own mix of personal relationship and technical infrastructure to frame our work with the I Ching. How much is to be gained by fighting with a translation that feels that it "clashes" and how much from taking comfort in one that doesn't is a decision having more to do with your own growth issues than with the text of the I Ching. Frank R. Kegan >> Hello Frank, The last part of your letter sounds, as if you've a rather special theory about the mysterious numerology of I-Ching. Could you tell a little more about it? Lothar ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2000 09:46:49 -0300 From: "Ely Britto" Subject: Re: HEX8: Re: hi and i ching's personality Dear Frank, Welcome to the list! We needed new people here to warm up our discussions. Thank you for saying in good English what I am not able to say with my poor English! Sorry about that. I would love to improve my writing but have no time free to learn properly. Let me try to communicate using the poor English I know. I almost agreed with your thoughts but there are two things that you said I would like to talk to you about. First, this: *The I Ching is not a work of poetry, its essence is in the geometry of cycles described in number patterns. * And this: *The imagery of the I Ching is accessible through most translations, however, the meaning of that imagery in >terms of the actual geometrical symbolism of the I Ching is only available >through the ancient number patterns. Fortunately, they are basically the same in Pythagorean or astrological metaphysics; however, they are still very different from modern analytical geometry. There is an old Chinese text written by Wang Fu-chih that states: "Between Heaven and Earth there exists nothing but law and energy. The energy carries the law and the law regulates the energy. Law does not manifest itself (has no form); it is only through energy that the image is formed, and the image yields the number. If this law becomes blurred the image is not right and the number is not clear. This reveals itself in great things and expresses itself in small things. Thus only a man of the highest integrity can understand this law; basing himself on its revelation he can grasp the symbols, and observing its small expressions, he can understand the auguries." As you can see, according to that ancient tex,t numbers were not the special base of the I Ching symbology, you have first the law and afterwards the energy that gives birth to numbers. There are a lot of people here working with numbers. I think you will enjoy talking to them. My work is more with the law and energy. About poetry: It is all made with numbers (see the classics), like music, like the beautiful paintings of Leonardo Da Vinci and all the Gothic architecture of the ancient churches. I look at the I Ching as the most beautiful poem I ever read, because it is life and life is made of beauty and harmony. Think how much poetry sings around us which we do not see because we are busy with our concrete mind. All the great men whose work changed the evolution of science talk about the poetry of the universe. They can see the poetry in numbers, in mathematics, and in the laws of life. I think we need more yin energy to perceive what they could see. Would you open your heart to see the poetry of the I Ching? Love Ely ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2000 17:14:06 +0100 From: "Thomas" Subject: Re: HEX8: Re: Cyrille Javery's history of the YJ > Actually the situation with these few old chinese documents doesn't allow any > sure conclusion, if the trigram-idea was earlier or later than the > hexagram-idea. Yes, you're probably right. I rechecked my I Ching books: there is a French one "Les Signes et les Mutations" by Wang Dongliang: he quotes Zhang Zhenglang who was the Chinese scholar who discovered those "bagua" numerals coded on the Zhou bronze vessels. (You are of course right to point out that there were more of them than the 6,7,8,9 that we still know.) And in his opinion, the only first hard evidence we have of graphic full/broken line hexagrams is the silk Mawangdui manuscript dated 168 BC. Before that hard date, everything is more or less good guessing. For the trigrams, Richard Rutt's remarkable book "Zhouyi" includes a translation of the "Zuo Commentary" with the earliest practical I Ching readings known: that "Zuo Commentary" is thought to have been compiled in the 3d century BC. In that text the trigrams have the symbolism we know: wind, mountain... But this is still 500 years after the writing of the divination formulas. There must have been a gradual evolution, starting with formulas grouped in batches of 6 and identied by numbers only (like or 6,7,8,9). Imagine using the I Ching with coins to get the numbers 6-9 and not drawing the hexagram: that's how it probably started. Then gradually the lines were drawn, maybe after several hundred years, and still later the trigrams were thought of. But, as you say, it can't be dated with much precision. Hello from Thomas Visit my Confucius page: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Bridge/8744 ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2000 12:50:00 EST From: Autorbis@aol.com Subject: Re: HEX8: Re: Cyrille Javery's history of the YJ Hi Thomas, << > Actually the situation with these few old chinese documents doesn't allow any > sure conclusion, if the trigram-idea was earlier or later than the > hexagram-idea. Yes, you're probably right. I rechecked my I Ching books: there is a French one "Les Signes et les Mutations" by Wang Dongliang: he quotes Zhang Zhenglang who was the Chinese scholar who discovered those "bagua" numerals coded on the Zhou bronze vessels. (You are of course right to point out that there were more of them than the 6,7,8,9 that we still know.) And in his opinion, the only first hard evidence we have of graphic full/broken line hexagrams is the silk Mawangdui manuscript dated 168 BC. Before that hard date, everything is more or less good guessing. For the trigrams, Richard Rutt's remarkable book "Zhouyi" includes a translation of the "Zuo Commentary" with the earliest practical I Ching readings known: that "Zuo Commentary" is thought to have been compiled in the 3d century BC. In that text the trigrams have the symbolism we know: wind, mountain... But this is still 500 years after the writing of the divination formulas. There must have been a gradual evolution, starting with formulas grouped in batches of 6 and identied by numbers only (like or 6,7,8,9). Imagine using the I Ching with coins to get the numbers 6-9 and not drawing the hexagram: that's how it probably started. Then gradually the lines were drawn, maybe after several hundred years, and still later the trigrams were thought of. But, as you say, it can't be dated with much precision. Hello from Thomas Visit my Confucius page: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Bridge/8744 >> ### I had my own ideas about the use of different numbers in earlier time and wrote some letters about "the lost 5th change". I'll send them to you privately, as I already published them in hex-8. Anyway, I'm glad to meet somebody with interest to order these developments of I-Ching in the common time-table. Why do you think, that the original text of I-Ching (without commentaries, you call it "divination formulas") developed around 800 BC? If we follow the legend, that it is a production of the early Chou-kings, then we've to look at a time around 1050 BC. Lothar ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2000 20:18:43 +0100 From: "Thomas" Subject: Re: HEX8: Re: Cyrille Javery's history of the YJ Why do you think, that the original text > of I-Ching (without commentaries, you call it "divination formulas") > developed around 800 BC? If we follow the legend, that it is a production of > the early Chou-kings, then we've to look at a time around 1050 BC. > > Lothar Another tough question. Those bronze vases with the 6 number codes engraved on the inside surface are, according to Richard Rutt in his "Zhouyi, The Book of Changes", Shang and early Zhou, so that could point to a date like 1050 BC. But there were many other divination formulas around, and nothing says that those codes refer to the I Ching. Scholars look at the language of the I Ching too, and find many similarities in style with the Book of Odes (a Zhou book of poetry): the oldest of these Odes are dated 8th century BC. Edward Shaughnessy from Chicago, perhaps the leading scholar on the Zhou period, dates the I Ching to the late 9th century BC. Richard Lynn, in the introduction to his "Wang Bi" I Ching translation, suggests the same 9th century. Lynn writes too that "the hexagrams themselves may be much older"! Which fits with the 6 coded numbers on the earlier bronze vases. So there was a lot of divination by sixes going on before the I Ching, and in that sense, the traditional record is right! The numbers did come first. (Although not the graphic yin-yang hexagrams that came much later). (I'll answer your number letters later because I need to read them carefully.) Hello from Thomas Looking for Confucius: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Bridge/8744 ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2000 16:48:42 EST From: Autorbis@aol.com Subject: Re: HEX8: Re: Cyrille Javery's history of the YJ In einer eMail vom 15.03.2000 20:22:27, schreiben Sie: << Why do you think, that the original text > of I-Ching (without commentaries, you call it "divination formulas") > developed around 800 BC? If we follow the legend, that it is a production of > the early Chou-kings, then we've to look at a time around 1050 BC. > > Lothar Another tough question. Those bronze vases with the 6 number codes engraved on the inside surface are, according to Richard Rutt in his "Zhouyi, The Book of Changes", Shang and early Zhou, so that could point to a date like 1050 BC. But there were many other divination formulas around, and nothing says that those codes refer to the I Ching. Scholars look at the language of the I Ching too, and find many similarities in style with the Book of Odes (a Zhou book of poetry): the oldest of these Odes are dated 8th century BC. Edward Shaughnessy from Chicago, perhaps the leading scholar on the Zhou period, dates the I Ching to the late 9th century BC. Richard Lynn, in the introduction to his "Wang Bi" I Ching translation, suggests the same 9th century. Lynn writes too that "the hexagrams themselves may be much older"! Which fits with the 6 coded numbers on the earlier bronze vases. So there was a lot of divination by sixes going on before the I Ching, and in that sense, the traditional record is right! The numbers did come first. (Although not the graphic yin-yang hexagrams that came much later). (I'll answer your number letters later because I need to read them carefully.) Hello from Thomas >> Hi Thomas, in the case, that there are realistical arguments, that the style of the early texts of the divination formulas points towards 8th + 9th century, one has to request the logical conditions of such a statement. 1. there are not many texts as early as the 8th + 9th century or earlier (perhaps my knowledge about this should be refreshed). How should the analysts have enough material to compare and to give such a statement? 2. The text of 8th century might have been modernized at that time or earlier, which is somehow probable, as one should assume, that the chinese scripture and language did probably have some development in the first centuries of the Chou-reignment (cause the Chou were a foreign element, which mixed with the earlier Shang-people, such a mixing always is accompanied by change in various aspects). Then any stylish sign wouldn't say nothing about the real origin. For instance: if you read Defoes "Robinson" in the original or in a modernized form, makes also a huge difference. In the modernized form you couldn't identify it as a work of 17th century. So any argument about the real age stays (naturally) doubtful, I guess. Greetings Lothar ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2000 02:24:25 EST From: FKegan@aol.com Subject: HEX8: Re: poetry and geometry Hi Ely, I am working these days with our Government Census, helping folks who think better in Spanish answer questionnaires written in English. The issues of translation are their own unique area of understanding. One of the things I noted about being bilingual is that meaning is not stored in words since if one is with other bilingual folks you can't easily remember what language things were said in, but can easily render the meanings in either language. I thank you for the quote from the text about law and energy, it is a nice expression of ancient Chinese physics. I can appreciate the poetry and the text, what changes is also being familiar with the geometrical constructions involved so I have very different associations to the passage you quote. That a text uses the word "text" isn't really authority, it is the meaning being expressed (and translated) that I care about. The passage you quote, mixes what would be called "numeral" and "number pattern" with very general (and quite poetic) descriptions of fundamental notions of physics -- that is universal principles or laws and empirical process or energy. The I Ching involves poetry and number and geometrical patterns and imagery from Ancient China and the eternal government bureaucracy as well as the personal input of each person reading and responding to its text, names, images, patterns, etc. None of that detracts from the I Ching as also a system of geometrical number patterns and cyclic symbolism quite parallel to those developed in other cultures through the centuries. Geometry is a universal language and absolute science which is shared around the world over centuries. There is great poetry and the symbolism of life in it as well as in the interpretative texts, whether I Ching or astrology or Pythagorean metaphysics. There are many perspectives, some each of us knows about and others each of us does not. It is not that my heart is not open to poetry--- I write poetic descriptions of the hexagrams and their meaning. Rather I have a different perspective based upon my experience with the oracle, with translations and with the correspondences between symbol systems. As your text quote notes, there is an integration of law and energy, and from Ancient Times geometry has been the royal road to understand both. I am trying to figure out how to explain the beauty and poetry of geometry to those who know only text words. It is a very difficult concept since it is like a universal language of all poetry rather than just the poetic wisps available with mere letters. Perhaps in time we can all open to the experience of one another and see the poetry and the organization of each perspective. Frank ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2000 10:12:17 -0300 From: "Ely Britto" Subject: Re: HEX8: Re: poetry and geometry > The I Ching involves poetry and number and geometrical patterns and >imagery from Ancient China and the eternal government bureaucracy as well as >the personal input of each person reading and responding to its text, names, >images, patterns, etc. None of that detracts from the I Ching as also a >system of geometrical number patterns and cyclic symbolism quite parallel to >those developed in other cultures through the centuries. Geometry is a >universal language and absolute science which is shared around the world over >centuries. There is great poetry and the symbolism of life in it as well as >in the interpretative texts, whether I Ching or astrology or Pythagorean >metaphysics. Thanks Frank and.... > I am trying to figure out how to explain the beauty and poetry of >geometry to those who know only text words. It is a very difficult concept >since it is like a universal language of all poetry rather than just the >poetic wisps available with mere letters. I can understand, this is the reason the ancient sages taught without words, using just the energy and feelings. > Perhaps in time we can all open to the experience of one another and see >the poetry and the organization of each perspective. In Hexagram-8 we are working on this...but sometimes with no success. I am an optmist woman, as you I hope that *in time we can open to the experience of one another and see the poetry and the organization of each perspective.* It would be lovely!! Thanks Ely >Frank > > >===== >To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org >from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2000 22:43:49 -0800 (PST) From: diane haldane Subject: HEX8: eric's i ching does anyone know what translation is used on 'eric's i ching" page? http://www.homebrew.net/ching that one really speaks to me, it is truly amazing how direct it has been, in very uncanny ways, and is actually the one that got me back into studying the i ching. thanks, diane __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2000 17:52:10 -0500 From: "Dr R. Butler" Subject: Re: HEX8: eric's i ching Hi Diane, Based on the one hexagram I received when checking it, the text is derived from the Wilhelm/Baynes version. This particular abridgement of the W/B was widely distributed as "/usr/games/ching" in early versions on the UNIX operating system. All the best, Rhett >does anyone know what translation is used >on 'eric's i ching" page? >http://www.homebrew.net/ching >that one really speaks to me, it is truly >amazing how direct it has been, in very >uncanny ways, and is actually the one that >got me back into studying the i ching. >thanks, diane > >__________________________________________________ >Do You Yahoo!? >Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. >http://im.yahoo.com > > >===== >To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org >from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2000 18:41:32 -0500 From: "Dr R. Butler" Subject: HEX8: King Wen's authorship Hi All, I am wondering if there is *any* evidence that contradicts ascribing the primary authorship of the Names and Judgements of the Hexagrams to the literary King Wen? By primary authorship, I accept that the Duke of Zhou may have amended the text in Hexagram 35, in reference to his younger brother, Kang. Any ideas? All the best, Rhett ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2000 20:04:49 EST From: FKegan@aol.com Subject: Re: HEX8: eric's i ching Hi Diane, The translation on "eric's i ching" is certainly the Wilhelm/Baynes. Perhaps more intriguing would be the random number generation routine used to produce the oracle in response to your question. Of course, it is not just objective details which are usually behind having an oracle or set of oracle particularly call to your spirit. When a friend of mine who was an early computer programmer first showed me the oracle of the I Ching and the Wilhelm/Baynes-- Bollingen Press translation I found myself impressed not with the actual text, but rather with the sense I had when reading it that I was being addressed by a living sage spirit. The experience you had with the oracle's from the Internet was much more the I Ching reaching out to you than anything special about the text. However, the Wilhelm is the standard English translation and it will do you in great stead. Frank ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2000 21:45:08 -0600 From: omei shan Subject: HEX8: A Chi Kung exercise I know it's not *exactly* the I Ching, but... Has anyone ever heard of a Chi Kung practice sometimes called "The Egg Exercise?" Monica ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Mar 2000 02:35:18 -0300 From: "Ely Britto" Subject: Re: HEX8: A Chi Kung exercise Hello Monica, This exercise is part of the Chinese Inner Alchemy as taught by Mantak Chia. It is not *exactly* the I Ching as we know it, it is about energy. It is used to strenght some inner muscle so you can build up the creative energy, transform it and use it to develop spiritual goals. Hope it helps Ely ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2000 21:44:14 -0800 (PST) From: diane haldane Subject: Re: HEX8: eric's i ching hi rhett, thanks for the info. i'm surprised it is wilhelm/baynes, as i didn't really like that translation when i first became interested in the i ching. but, i've changed! this eric never finished his homepage, but i'm sure glad that i ching is still on the net! thanks again, diane ~~~~~~~ - --- "Dr R. Butler" wrote: > Hi Diane, > > Based on the one hexagram I received when checking it, the text is derived > from the Wilhelm/Baynes version. This particular abridgement of the W/B was > widely distributed as "/usr/games/ching" in early versions on the UNIX > operating system. > > All the best, > > Rhett > > > >does anyone know what translation is used > >on 'eric's i ching" page? > >http://www.homebrew.net/ching > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Mar 2000 08:41:49 -0800 From: "carolynne" Subject: Re: HEX8: eric's i ching I can't even imagine using an I Ching translation other than the Wilhelm/Baynes book. The clear and concise vocabulary knocks my socks off every time. Reading and consulting the I Ching has been a study of mine since 1968 and I still feel like a student. It has been an excellent guide for all my questions. There is a good little companion to that edition put out late last year by Jill Richards which may be helpful to some. All the major book stores carry it. carolynne - ----- Original Message ----- From: diane haldane To: Sent: Friday, March 17, 2000 9:44 PM Subject: Re: HEX8: eric's i ching > > > hi rhett, thanks for the info. i'm surprised > it is wilhelm/baynes, as i didn't really like > that translation when i first became interested in the i ching. but, i've changed! > this eric never finished his homepage, but > i'm sure glad that i ching is still on the > net! thanks again, diane > ~~~~~~~ > --- "Dr R. Butler" wrote: > > Hi Diane, > > > > Based on the one hexagram I received when checking it, the text is derived > > from the Wilhelm/Baynes version. This particular abridgement of the W/B was > > widely distributed as "/usr/games/ching" in early versions on the UNIX > > operating system. > > > > All the best, > > > > Rhett > > > > > > >does anyone know what translation is used > > >on 'eric's i ching" page? > > >http://www.homebrew.net/ching > > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. > http://im.yahoo.com > > > ===== > To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org > from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ End of hexagram-8-digest V1 #159 ******************************** From owner-hexagram-8-digest@apocalypse.org Sun Mar 19 15:01:26 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA25355 for hexagram-8-digest-outgoing; Sun, 19 Mar 2000 15:01:26 -0500 Date: Sun, 19 Mar 2000 15:01:26 -0500 Message-Id: <200003192001.PAA25355@apocalypse.org> X-Authentication-Warning: apocalypse.org: majordom set sender to owner-hexagram-8-digest@apocalypse.org using -f From: owner-hexagram-8-digest@apocalypse.org (hexagram-8-digest) To: hexagram-8-digest@apocalypse.org Subject: hexagram-8-digest V1 #160 Reply-To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Sender: owner-hexagram-8-digest@apocalypse.org Errors-To: owner-hexagram-8-digest@apocalypse.org Precedence: bulk hexagram-8-digest Sunday, March 19 2000 Volume 01 : Number 160 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 18 Mar 2000 09:29:32 -0800 From: "carolynne" Subject: Re: HEX8: eric's i ching Sorry, I forgot to give the title of the book I mentioned. It is: The I Ching Companion, An Answer for Every Question by Jill Richards and published by Samuel Weiser, Inc. York Beach, Maine. carolynne - ----- Original Message ----- From: carolynne To: Sent: Saturday, March 18, 2000 8:41 AM Subject: Re: HEX8: eric's i ching > I can't even imagine using an I Ching translation other than the > Wilhelm/Baynes book. The clear and concise vocabulary knocks my socks off > every time. Reading and consulting the I Ching has been a study of mine > since 1968 and I still feel like a student. It has been an excellent guide > for all my questions. There is a good little companion to that edition put > out late last year by Jill Richards which may be helpful to some. All the > major book stores carry it. > carolynne > ----- Original Message ----- > From: diane haldane > To: > Sent: Friday, March 17, 2000 9:44 PM > Subject: Re: HEX8: eric's i ching > > > > > > > > hi rhett, thanks for the info. i'm surprised > > it is wilhelm/baynes, as i didn't really like > > that translation when i first became interested in the i ching. but, i've > changed! > > this eric never finished his homepage, but > > i'm sure glad that i ching is still on the > > net! thanks again, diane > > ~~~~~~~ > > --- "Dr R. Butler" wrote: > > > Hi Diane, > > > > > > Based on the one hexagram I received when checking it, the text is > derived > > > from the Wilhelm/Baynes version. This particular abridgement of the W/B > was > > > widely distributed as "/usr/games/ching" in early versions on the UNIX > > > operating system. > > > > > > All the best, > > > > > > Rhett > > > > > > > > > >does anyone know what translation is used > > > >on 'eric's i ching" page? > > > >http://www.homebrew.net/ching > > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > > Do You Yahoo!? > > Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. > > http://im.yahoo.com > > > > > > ===== > > To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org > > from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. > > > > ===== > To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org > from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Mar 2000 07:52:51 -0500 From: "Dr R. Butler" Subject: Re: HEX8: eric's i ching Hi Diane, The nice thing about this particular abridgement of W/B is just that, the commentary is left out. Rhett >hi rhett, thanks for the info. i'm surprised >it is wilhelm/baynes, as i didn't really like >that translation when i first became interested in the i ching. but, i've >changed! >this eric never finished his homepage, but >i'm sure glad that i ching is still on the >net! thanks again, diane >~~~~~~~ >--- "Dr R. Butler" wrote: >> Hi Diane, >> >> Based on the one hexagram I received when checking it, the text is derived >> from the Wilhelm/Baynes version. This particular abridgement of the W/B was >> widely distributed as "/usr/games/ching" in early versions on the UNIX >> operating system. >> >> All the best, >> >> Rhett >> >> >> >does anyone know what translation is used >> >on 'eric's i ching" page? >> >http://www.homebrew.net/ching >> > >__________________________________________________ >Do You Yahoo!? >Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. >http://im.yahoo.com > > >===== >To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org >from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Mar 2000 12:25:22 -0500 From: "Dr R. Butler" Subject: HEX8: mandate of heaven = Yi ? Hi All, Chronologies of the Zhou indicate that their dynasty is dated not to their conquest of the Shang, but rather about 12 years earlier, when King Wen was acknowledged to have the "mandate of heaven" (tianming). This event apparently occurred shortly after his release from imprisonment at Youli. It is legendary that King Wen [Wen literally mean Literary] devised the Yi while imprisoned at Youli. I submit an idea I have been thinking about for some time. When Wen left Youli with the Yi, he shared it with his Zhou kinsmen, the Many Lords. The Shang are known for divination by tortoise shell; and a military campaign against the Shang, who had recourse to tortoise, may have seemed to be challenging heaven's authority at the time. The Yi was something new, it was easy, and it didn't require a tortoise. Yet in the eyes of those who experienced it, it may have been seen as a gift from heaven. It had come to King Wen, therefore King Wen had heaven's mandate. Hence, the bestowal of heaven's mandate was King Wen's creation of the Yi. Any thoughts? Rhett Reference: Edward L. Shaughnessy Sources of Western Zhou History: Inscribed Bronze Vessels University of California Press, 1991 ISBN 0-520-07028-3 ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Mar 2000 10:52:27 -0800 From: "dlesper or cathbell" Subject: HEX8: i ching and tai chi This is a multi-part message in MIME format. - ------=_NextPart_000_005D_01BF90C8.0D14F740 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable A few months ago I joined our local Taoist Tai Chi society. We've = recently completed the basic set, and I was playing around with the = numberings of the moves the other day.=20 I feel that if a Tai Chi form calls itself Taoist, then there may be a = numerological connection in some form between itself and the I Ching. So = far I haven't discovered anything, but I'll continue searching. Has anyone else had a similar thought? Any experience? Regards, Darren - ------=_NextPart_000_005D_01BF90C8.0D14F740 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
A few months ago I joined our local Taoist = Tai Chi=20 society. We've recently completed the basic set, and I was playing = around with=20 the numberings of the moves the other day.
 
I feel that if a Tai Chi form calls itself = Taoist, then=20 there may be a numerological connection in some form between itself and = the I=20 Ching. So far I haven't discovered anything, but I'll continue=20 searching.
 
Has anyone else had a similar thought? Any experience?
 
Regards,
Darren
 
- ------=_NextPart_000_005D_01BF90C8.0D14F740-- ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Mar 2000 20:11:37 +0000 From: Andreas Schoter Subject: Re: HEX8: i ching and tai chi Hi Darren, At 10:52 18/03/00 -0800, dlesper or cathbell wrote: > A few months ago I joined our local Taoist Tai Chi society. We've >recently completed the basic set, and I was playing around with the >numberings of the moves the other day. I feel that if a Tai Chi form >calls itself Taoist, then there may be a numerological connection in some >form between itself and the I Ching. Historically, whether Taiji is a taoist art is open to debate. Although most styles would say that it was (for example, Wu style, the style I practice traces its origin back to the taoist Chang San Feng) there is some disagreement; Chen style, which many people now acknowledge is the original style from which others developed is not particularly taoist. That said, many of the principles within the art certainly are taoist. If you're interested in a correlation between the Taiji forms and the Yi then you should find yourself a copy of Da Liu's "Tai Chi Chuan and I Ching". The form he uses is essentialy a Yang style form and he provides a gua for each move. >So far I haven't discovered anything, >but I'll continue searching. Has anyone else had a similar thought? Any >experience? In the style I practice, originally from the Wu family, via Cheng Tin Hung in Hong Kong, we don't have a gua for each move. However, we have eight basic "powers" from which all postures and applications can be derived. Each of these powers is associated with one of the trigrams. Specifically: Peng - an upward force - chien, heaven. Li - a sideways diversion - kun, earth. Tsai - a forward thrust - k'an, water. On - a downward force - li, fire. Tsoi - uprooting - sun, wind. Lit - spiralling - chen, lighting. Tsou - use of power through the torso - tui, marsh. Kou - use of the elbow - ken, mountain. Of course, the obvious martial art to check out if you're specifically interested in connections with the Yi is Bagua. All the Best Andreas ____________________________________________________________________________ Five Winds Tai Chi Chuan http://www.weft.telinco.co.uk/taiji mailto:five-winds@telinco.co.uk ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Mar 2000 21:25:21 EST From: Autorbis@aol.com Subject: Re: HEX8: mandate of heaven = Yi ? Hi Rhett, << Hi All, Chronologies of the Zhou indicate that their dynasty is dated not to their conquest of the Shang, but rather about 12 years earlier, when King Wen was acknowledged to have the "mandate of heaven" (tianming). This event apparently occurred shortly after his release from imprisonment at Youli. It is legendary that King Wen [Wen literally mean Literary] devised the Yi while imprisoned at Youli. I submit an idea I have been thinking about for some time. When Wen left Youli with the Yi, he shared it with his Zhou kinsmen, the Many Lords. The Shang are known for divination by tortoise shell; and a military campaign against the Shang, who had recourse to tortoise, may have seemed to be challenging heaven's authority at the time. The Yi was something new, it was easy, and it didn't require a tortoise. Yet in the eyes of those who experienced it, it may have been seen as a gift from heaven. It had come to King Wen, therefore King Wen had heaven's mandate. Hence, the bestowal of heaven's mandate was King Wen's creation of the Yi. Any thoughts? Rhett >> I think, it was Wu, after the death of Wen, who did win against the Shang. And it was the Duke of Chou, who is credited to have written the greater part of I-Ching. The essential thing about King Wen was, that he reigned rather long (about 50 years). So it was difficult to King Wu and the Duke of Chou to overcome the "shadow of the father". And it was normal, that this long-reigning father was credited with "having invented with something". I think, the Duke of Chou as author is much more probable than King Wen. After Wu's death he was a sort of chancellor and educator of the new young king. As an educator he had a rather good chance to be active as a man of literature (which mostly kings are not, as history proves; there are only few writing kings - the "first sons" become rulers and the second and third have a good chance to become intellectual - bishop, pope or something similar; and the people in the second row become the writers). That the Duke of Chou embedded teachings of his father (= King Wen) in the text, looks plausible to me. Somehow he probably had some talking with him. Anyway, the 64 "names" of hexagrams, which are credited to King Wen, are the most unstable part of the text, as the Mawangdui proves (about 30 names are different there). And the head lines of the hexagrams (also credited to Wen) is the most stupid part of the text, definitely another style than the line text, full of repeatings, rather unclear in their meaning. What I could imagine as "historical true": There was a stupid, rather mechanistical reading of oracles in the style of I-Ching before the win of Chou against the Shang. Probably it was common for the Western part of China, whereas the better-living people in the east of China prefered the cultural high-standing tortoise-ritual. The duke of Chou transformed it and gave it a little more elegance. As the Chou were new kings after conquering the Shang (and barbarians in the West), they naturally became in the course of time a little "educated" by the cultural high-standing Shang of the West, with whom they mixed. When the Duke of Chou transformed the older I-Ching, he didn't feel strong enough to change the older and longer existing divination tradition totally. So he took names and head-lines of older sources (which were not necessarily worked out by his father, but might have been believed by his father, who eventually had influenced his son to "believe" in the same way). However, in the line-text he could develop a little more phantasy and creativity. Although this - in the literary sense - is also a "poor" and primitive text (unbelievable poor in the comparition to Homers Ilias and its possibilities of expression, which is of a similar "early" time), it shows much "more" content than this headline stuff. The success of the I-Ching didn't depend on its literary qualities, but on the fact, that its inventors became historically rather successful men. The Chou reigned 800 years about China, that's the I-Ching-success. Nobody would know Romulus and Remus, when the Roman Empire would be missing in history. The Bible wouldn't be a bestseller without King David. Without the victory of Marathon Homer would be unknown. Without the Chou the I-Ching wouldn't exist anymore. Probably then there would be another important book :-) ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Mar 2000 22:11:23 -0600 From: omei shan Subject: Re: HEX8: i ching and tai chi My two cents on an I Ching/Tai Chi Chuan connection. According to my former instructor, there are five major styles of instruction in China: - - Shao Lin, which specialized in animal-based fighting styles - - Hai Nam, which developed the use of fishing implements as fighting tools to a very high degree. According to more than one legend, the Hai Nam eventually evolved into the Ninja. - - Fu Kien. Short, straight, direct. Wing Chun is the best example of a Fu Kien style. - - Wu Dong specialized in coiling, spiraling movements of the spine. Tai Chi Chuan is part of the Wu Dong school. - - Omei specializes in the analysis of human-based movements. Its forte is the I Ching and Baguazhang. So, I guess this is a round-about way of saying that Tai Chi Chuan and the I Ching probably don't derive from the same source (according to whichever legends your school subscribes), but that doesn't mean one cannot use the I Ching to understand Tai Chi. Monica At 08:11 PM 03/18/2000 +0000, you wrote: >Hi Darren, > >At 10:52 18/03/00 -0800, dlesper or cathbell wrote: >> A few months ago I joined our local Taoist Tai Chi society. We've >>recently completed the basic set, and I was playing around with the >>numberings of the moves the other day. I feel that if a Tai Chi form >>calls itself Taoist, then there may be a numerological connection in some >>form between itself and the I Ching. > >Historically, whether Taiji is a taoist art is open to debate. Although >most styles would say that it was (for example, Wu style, the style I >practice traces its origin back to the taoist Chang San Feng) there is some >disagreement; Chen style, which many people now acknowledge is the original >style from which others developed is not particularly taoist. > >That said, many of the principles within the art certainly are taoist. > >If you're interested in a correlation between the Taiji forms and the Yi >then you should find yourself a copy of Da Liu's "Tai Chi Chuan and I >Ching". The form he uses is essentialy a Yang style form and he provides a >gua for each move. > >>So far I haven't discovered anything, >>but I'll continue searching. Has anyone else had a similar thought? Any >>experience? > >In the style I practice, originally from the Wu family, via Cheng Tin Hung >in Hong Kong, we don't have a gua for each move. However, we have eight >basic "powers" from which all postures and applications can be derived. >Each of these powers is associated with one of the trigrams. > >Specifically: > >Peng - an upward force - chien, heaven. >Li - a sideways diversion - kun, earth. >Tsai - a forward thrust - k'an, water. >On - a downward force - li, fire. >Tsoi - uprooting - sun, wind. >Lit - spiralling - chen, lighting. >Tsou - use of power through the torso - tui, marsh. >Kou - use of the elbow - ken, mountain. > >Of course, the obvious martial art to check out if you're specifically >interested in connections with the Yi is Bagua. > >All the Best > >Andreas > >____________________________________________________________________________ >Five Winds Tai Chi Chuan >http://www.weft.telinco.co.uk/taiji >mailto:five-winds@telinco.co.uk > > >===== >To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org >from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. > ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 19 Mar 2000 02:25:46 -0300 From: "Jorge" Subject: Re: HEX8: mandate of heaven = Yi ? Hi, Lothar I think I have to desagree with you. My opinion is that the Yi Jing is still alive between us because it works as an oracle. Many generations of people tried it and founded that it worked, so they valued it, they studied it and so it was not forgotten, independently of its literary qualities (always a problem for the readers, being or not chinese) or historical background. Jorge Vulibrun Florianopolis, Brasil jorgevul@newsite.com.br - -----Mensagem original----- De: Autorbis@aol.com Para: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Data: Sábado, 18 de Março de 2000 23:37 Assunto: Re: HEX8: mandate of heaven = Yi ? >Hi Rhett, > ><< Hi All, > > Chronologies of the Zhou indicate that their dynasty is dated not to their > conquest of the Shang, but rather about 12 years earlier, when King Wen was > acknowledged to have the "mandate of heaven" (tianming). This event > apparently occurred shortly after his release from imprisonment at Youli. > It is legendary that King Wen [Wen literally mean Literary] devised the Yi > while imprisoned at Youli. > > I submit an idea I have been thinking about for some time. When Wen left > Youli with the Yi, he shared it with his Zhou kinsmen, the Many Lords. The > Shang are known for divination by tortoise shell; and a military campaign > against the Shang, who had recourse to tortoise, may have seemed to be > challenging heaven's authority at the time. The Yi was something new, it > was easy, and it didn't require a tortoise. Yet in the eyes of those who > experienced it, it may have been seen as a gift from heaven. It had come to > King Wen, therefore King Wen had heaven's mandate. Hence, the bestowal of > heaven's mandate was King Wen's creation of the Yi. > > Any thoughts? > > Rhett >> > >I think, it was Wu, after the death of Wen, who did win against the Shang. >And it was the Duke of Chou, who is credited to have written the greater part >of I-Ching. >The essential thing about King Wen was, that he reigned rather long (about 50 >years). So it was difficult to King Wu and the Duke of Chou to overcome the >"shadow of the father". And it was normal, that this long-reigning father was >credited with "having invented with something". >I think, the Duke of Chou as author is much more probable than King Wen. >After Wu's death he was a sort of chancellor and educator of the new young >king. As an educator he had a rather good chance to be active as a man of >literature (which mostly kings are not, as history proves; there are only few >writing kings - the "first sons" become rulers and the second and third have >a good chance to become intellectual - bishop, pope or something similar; and >the people in the second row become the writers). That the Duke of Chou >embedded teachings of his father (= King Wen) in the text, looks plausible to >me. Somehow he probably had some talking with him. Anyway, the 64 "names" of >hexagrams, which are credited to King Wen, are the most unstable part of the >text, as the Mawangdui proves (about 30 names are different there). >And the head lines of the hexagrams (also credited to Wen) is the most stupid >part of the text, definitely another style than the line text, full of >repeatings, rather unclear in their meaning. > >What I could imagine as "historical true": There was a stupid, rather >mechanistical reading of oracles in the style of I-Ching before the win of >Chou against the Shang. Probably it was common for the Western part of China, >whereas the better-living people in the east of China prefered the cultural >high-standing tortoise-ritual. The duke of Chou transformed it and gave it a >little more elegance. As the Chou were new kings after conquering the Shang >(and barbarians in the West), they naturally became in the course of time a >little "educated" by the cultural high-standing Shang of the West, with whom >they mixed. >When the Duke of Chou transformed the older I-Ching, he didn't feel strong >enough to change the older and longer existing divination tradition totally. >So he took names and head-lines of older sources (which were not necessarily >worked out by his father, but might have been believed by his father, who >eventually had influenced his son to "believe" in the same way). However, in >the line-text he could develop a little more phantasy and creativity. >Although this - in the literary sense - is also a "poor" and primitive text >(unbelievable poor in the comparition to Homers Ilias and its possibilities >of expression, which is of a similar "early" time), it shows much "more" >content than this headline stuff. > >The success of the I-Ching didn't depend on its literary qualities, but on >the fact, that its inventors became historically rather successful men. The >Chou reigned 800 years about China, that's the I-Ching-success. >Nobody would know Romulus and Remus, when the Roman Empire would be missing >in history. >The Bible wouldn't be a bestseller without King David. >Without the victory of Marathon Homer would be unknown. >Without the Chou the I-Ching wouldn't exist anymore. Probably then there >would be another important book :-) > > >===== >To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org >from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. > ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 19 Mar 2000 03:35:12 -0300 From: "Ely Britto" Subject: Re: HEX8: mandate of heaven = Yi ? >I submit an idea I have been thinking about for some time. When Wen left >Youli with the Yi, he shared it with his Zhou kinsmen, the Many Lords. The >Shang are known for divination by tortoise shell; and a military campaign >against the Shang, who had recourse to tortoise, may have seemed to be >challenging heaven's authority at the time. The Yi was something new, it >was easy, and it didn't require a tortoise. Yet in the eyes of those who >experienced it, it may have been seen as a gift from heaven. It had come to >King Wen, therefore King Wen had heaven's mandate. Hence, the bestowal of >heaven's mandate was King Wen's creation of the Yi. Hi Rhett! Nice thoughts! I think it could be, King Wen seems to be a very special King for his wisdom and benevolence. In ancient times, not only in China, Kings were considered to be the son's of God or the voice of Heaven. I think its possible that the bestowal of heaven's mandate was King Wen's creation of the Yi. Do you think this tittle could means that he got the inspiration from heaven or that the I Ching is talking about the power of heaven? About history: - I prefer to accept the oral transmission history, that states that he created the sequence and the hexagrams and his son the text of the lines. How can we surely know what happened 3000 years ago if sometimes we are not able to affirm what happened 50 years ago in our history? We have many examples of people manipulating historical datas and make they serve their interest and believes in the serious modern history , So I prefer to stay with the words of the wise men from the past. Its nice to see all the interesting things synologues discover about the I Ching, but for me the interest is more in how they come to their conclusion then to change my ideas about the I Ching. The system is here, so let's gets the benefits we can get from it. Love Ely ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 19 Mar 2000 07:59:13 EST From: Autorbis@aol.com Subject: Re: HEX8: mandate of heaven = Yi ? Hi Jorge, nicve to meet you again << Hi, Lothar I think I have to desagree with you. My opinion is that the Yi Jing is still alive between us because it works as an oracle. Many generations of people tried it and founded that it worked, so they valued it, they studied it and so it was not forgotten, independently of its literary qualities (always a problem for the readers, being or not chinese) or historical background. Jorge Vulibrun >> Jorge, I think, the I-Ching approached you as a book of sages of old China and with 3000 years history. Such it could open your heart. Also it came in being connected to a very nice mathematical background. This "literary trick" created the imagination of an "order of the universe", which had been explored by this "old sages" until its very ends. It came in with the approach to "speak the truth". You was impressed. You're not "objective", Jorge :-) The text is poor, written in a archaic scripture, which had only poor ways to express something. But this "archaical thinking" is also impressive, when you're used to use languages mit much more possibilities to express something. It gives a "romantic feeling". Also there are and had been lots of other divination technics, who couldn't claim to be 3000 years old, couldn't claim, to be made by "wise men", which aren't connected to nice mathematical systems (although a lot of them are or had been), which are gone with the wind. Perhaps they also had spoken the truth .... and you doesn't look to them. The primary success of I-Ching might have been that it was ordered or written by kings, which became very successful as person themselves and gave start to a dynasty, that lasted 800 years. Lue-Bu-We, who "gathered" the historical material of China around 250 BC, included a lot of "historical anecdotes" about King Wen, King Wu, the Duke of Chou etc., not to much about the use of divination technics. The historical persons were important to him, not the book, that looks as being of such big importance to us. Lothar Lothar ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 19 Mar 2000 13:00:29 -0300 From: "Jorge" Subject: Re: HEX8: mandate of heaven = Yi ? Hi all I'm back after some personal turmoil; seems that the winds are calmer now ... for a while. Facts of life! Lothar, let me give you my personal opinion: 1) I agree with you that the Zhou Yi HAS "a poor text, written in an archaic scripture, which had only poor ways to express something and has 3000 (+ - 500) years", but 2) the Yi Jing IS a "book of sages of old China" that accumulates the experiences, opinions and efforts of thousands of sages that devoted their time to study, use, value and teach the meanings that they were able to grasp from that poor text and its mathematical background, not always being able to agree between them in their findings. Quoting Shchutskii: "thus the literature on the Book of Changes is an entire library of rather impressive size. It is impossible to deal with it in every detail even in specialized works, but it is also impossible to ignore this truly voluminous literature". All this accumulated meaning is what we receive and should be the basis for an objective view of the book; we cannot think as men of Central China in the XII or X century b.c. so we never will be able to understand the Zhou Yi. 3) Zhu Xi (Chu Hsi, aprox. 1200 a.d. ), one of the biggest landmarks of chinese philosophy, defended the use of the Yi as an oracle, finding in this use a tool for human development. Obviously, there are two levels to use it: the common people looking for an easy way to 'know the future' (whatever that means) and people as you, I and the rest of the HEX8 group that were, in a way or another, hooked by the book, the comentaries, the images and the open meaning they carry, that push us to go deeper and deeper in it. 4) Yes, there are many other divination technics, (here, in Brazil, is very popular one called 'buzios', born in Africa, that uses small mollusk shells) but none of them were so exaustively studied and commented as the Yi. This is what makes the book different from the others. Yes, maybe the Tarot, for example, works well, but depends of the reader, that have to be based only in his/hers intuition and few other parameters. I have to clarify that I think that randomness plays a key role in structuring the world as we see, and live, it, so it's not a surprise that random technics can give us some grasp of that world in which we found living. 5) THERE IS an "order of the Universe", otherwise it would be a chaos instead of a cosmos. (I agree that reading newspapers, sometimes I have to doubt of my own opinion) 6) So, Lothar, I dont care much of King Wen, King Wu, the Duke of Chou, etc., whether they existed or not or if their where powerful or not (although is a nice story, as Ely pointed), but I think that I'm really "objective" ;-) because I sit with the book in front of me, with some (very few!) of its commentaries and some (very very few!) of the other books written in the last 3000 years (in China, India, Europe, etc.) at hand, and pushing my hair trying to grasp the meaning of the Yi, meaning making sense to me and in this moment, living in Brazil in the last minutes of the XX century. Uff!!! to much english for me Tchau Jorge Vulibrun Florianopolis, Brasil jorgevul@newsite.com.br - -----Mensagem original----- De: Autorbis@aol.com Para: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Data: Domingo, 19 de Março de 2000 10:11 Assunto: Re: HEX8: mandate of heaven = Yi ? >Hi Jorge, > >nicve to meet you again > ><< Hi, Lothar > > I think I have to desagree with you. My opinion is that the Yi Jing is still > alive between us because it works as an oracle. Many generations of people > tried it and founded that it worked, so they valued it, they studied it and > so it was not forgotten, independently of its literary qualities (always a > problem for the readers, being or not chinese) or historical background. > > > Jorge Vulibrun >> > >Jorge, I think, the I-Ching approached you as a book of sages of old China >and with 3000 years history. Such it could open your heart. Also it came in >being connected to a very nice mathematical background. This "literary trick" >created the imagination of an "order of the universe", which had been >explored by this "old sages" until its very ends. >It came in with the approach to "speak the truth". You was impressed. > >You're not "objective", Jorge :-) The text is poor, written in a archaic >scripture, which had only poor ways to express something. > >But this "archaical thinking" is also impressive, when you're used to use >languages mit much more possibilities to express something. It gives a >"romantic feeling". > >Also there are and had been lots of other divination technics, who couldn't >claim to be 3000 years old, couldn't claim, to be made by "wise men", which >aren't connected to nice mathematical systems (although a lot of them are or >had been), which are gone with the wind. Perhaps they also had spoken the >truth .... and you doesn't look to them. > >The primary success of I-Ching might have been that it was ordered or written >by kings, which became very successful as person themselves and gave start to >a dynasty, that lasted 800 years. > >Lue-Bu-We, who "gathered" the historical material of China around 250 BC, >included a lot of "historical anecdotes" about King Wen, King Wu, the Duke of >Chou etc., not to much about the use of divination technics. The historical >persons were important to him, not the book, that looks as being of such big >importance to us. > >Lothar > > >Lothar > > >===== >To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org >from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. > ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 19 Mar 2000 08:07:32 -0800 From: "dlesper or cathbell" Subject: Re: HEX8: i ching and tai chi - --- >Historically, whether Taiji is a taoist art is open to debate. Although >most styles would say that it was (for example, Wu style, the style I >practice traces its origin back to the taoist Chang San Feng) there is some >disagreement; Chen style, which many people now acknowledge is the original >style from which others developed is not particularly taoist. The organization I joined is called the "Taoist Tai Chi Society of Canada." The info I have on it says it was founded in 1970 by Moy Lin-shin, a Taoist monk of the Earlier Heaven Wu-chi sect of the Hua Shan school. The society does, however, practice other taoists arts, such as meditation and chi-kung. Through its sister organization, the "Fung Lok Institute of Taoism," one explores more the world of internal alchemy and the Taoist Canon. Our particular centre is co-located with a Taoist temple, though I don't think that's the case with most centres. There's some 500 centres in Canada (in a country with only 3 cities over 1 million people that's a lot of centres!), so I can go just about anywhere for a practise session. I think there's another 200 others around the world. >If you're interested in a correlation between the Taiji forms and the Yi >then you should find yourself a copy of Da Liu's "Tai Chi Chuan and I >Ching". The form he uses is essentialy a Yang style form and he provides a >gua for each move. Thank you Andreas! Thank was exactly the type of thing I was looking for! >Of course, the obvious martial art to check out if you're specifically >interested in connections with the Yi is Bagua. I've never heard of that. I'll have to keep my eyes open for a practioner. I think that would be very interesting! Regards, Darren ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 19 Mar 2000 09:16:09 -0800 From: Ray Langley Subject: HEX8: BaGua/Paqua, was: i ching and tai chi > >Of course, the obvious martial art to check out if you're specifically > >interested in connections with the Yi is Bagua. > > I've never heard of that. I'll have to keep my eyes open for a practioner. I > think that would be very interesting! > > Regards, Darren Hi Darren, here is one site: http://www.geocities.com/Tokyo/Fuji/9797/ Also, because of the many different spoken dialects and forms of romanization, this art may go by the name(s) of: PaKua, Pa Qua, PaQua, Ba Gua, BaGua, Ba Gwa, or BaGwa. - -- Warmest Regards, Ray Have Luo Pan, Will Travel! ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 19 Mar 2000 09:34:40 -0800 From: Ray Langley Subject: Re: HEX8: mandate of heaven = Yi ? > 6) So, Lothar, I dont care much of King Wen, King Wu, the Duke of Chou, > etc., whether they existed or not or if their where powerful or not > (although is a nice story, as Ely pointed), but I think that I'm really > "objective" ;-) because I sit with the book in front of me, with some (very > few!) of its commentaries and some (very very few!) of the other books > written in the last 3000 years (in China, India, Europe, etc.) at hand, and > pushing my hair trying to grasp the meaning of the Yi, meaning making sense > to me and in this moment, living in Brazil in the last minutes of the XX > century. > > Uff!!! to much english for me > Tchau, Jorge Vulibrun > Florianopolis, Brasil Hello Jorge, there is a new I Ching list in Portuguese: "Esta lista pretende unir as pessoas que querem estudar e discutir seriamente o I Ching. Serão Bem Vindos todos aqueles que querem discutir sua história- sua relação com a ciência ocidental, a psicologia, a matemática, a Física Quantica e o papel do I Ching na transformação e aperfeiçoamento do ser humano." Click here to join: http://www.onelist.com/subscribe/OIching - -- Warmest Regards, Ray Have Luo Pan, Will Travel! ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 19 Mar 2000 14:54:39 -0500 From: "Dr R. Butler" Subject: Re: HEX8: mandate of heaven = Yi ? Hi Lothar and Jorge, > >nicve to meet you again > ><< Hi, Lothar > > I think I have to desagree with you. My opinion is that the Yi Jing is still > alive between us because it works as an oracle. Many generations of people > tried it and founded that it worked, so they valued it, they studied it and > so it was not forgotten, independently of its literary qualities (always a > problem for the readers, being or not chinese) or historical background. > > > Jorge Vulibrun >> > >Jorge, I think, the I-Ching approached you as a book of sages of old China >and with 3000 years history. Such it could open your heart. Also it came in >being connected to a very nice mathematical background. This "literary trick" >created the imagination of an "order of the universe", which had been >explored by this "old sages" until its very ends. >It came in with the approach to "speak the truth". You was impressed. When I first looked into the Yi, I knew nothing of its history, the Sages and Kings, or its traditions. Coming from a rational, scientific background, the very concept of it could not seem to make sense. Yet, experience is a great teacher. > >You're not "objective", Jorge :-) The text is poor, written in a archaic >scripture, which had only poor ways to express something. > >But this "archaical thinking" is also impressive, when you're used to use >languages mit much more possibilities to express something. It gives a >"romantic feeling". Perhaps. Yet a haiku can express as deep a feeling of a moment than thousands of words of allegory. > >Also there are and had been lots of other divination technics, who couldn't >claim to be 3000 years old, couldn't claim, to be made by "wise men", which >aren't connected to nice mathematical systems (although a lot of them are or >had been), which are gone with the wind. Perhaps they also had spoken the >truth .... and you doesn't look to them. "There is to my knowledge no nation, no matter how cultivated and learned or rude and barbaric, which does not believe that future events are discernible and that they can be understood and predicted by certain people." - Cicero from De Divinatione > >The primary success of I-Ching might have been that it was ordered or written >by kings, which became very successful as person themselves and gave start to >a dynasty, that lasted 800 years. > >Lue-Bu-We, who "gathered" the historical material of China around 250 BC, >included a lot of "historical anecdotes" about King Wen, King Wu, the Duke of >Chou etc., not to much about the use of divination technics. The historical >persons were important to him, not the book, that looks as being of such big >importance to us. > There are clearly many perspectives on the success of the Yi and its place in the history of China. I very much enjoy these discussions. All the best, Rhett ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ End of hexagram-8-digest V1 #160 ******************************** From owner-hexagram-8-digest@apocalypse.org Sun Mar 19 21:53:18 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id VAA13336 for hexagram-8-digest-outgoing; Sun, 19 Mar 2000 21:53:18 -0500 Date: Sun, 19 Mar 2000 21:53:18 -0500 Message-Id: <200003200253.VAA13336@apocalypse.org> X-Authentication-Warning: apocalypse.org: majordom set sender to owner-hexagram-8-digest@apocalypse.org using -f From: owner-hexagram-8-digest@apocalypse.org (hexagram-8-digest) To: hexagram-8-digest@apocalypse.org Subject: hexagram-8-digest V1 #161 Reply-To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Sender: owner-hexagram-8-digest@apocalypse.org Errors-To: owner-hexagram-8-digest@apocalypse.org Precedence: bulk hexagram-8-digest Sunday, March 19 2000 Volume 01 : Number 161 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 19 Mar 2000 14:53:27 -0500 From: "Dr R. Butler" Subject: Re: HEX8: mandate of heaven = Yi ? Hi Ely, I always enjoy your positive vibrations... > >Hi Rhett! >Nice thoughts! I think it could be, King Wen seems to be a very special King >for his wisdom and benevolence. In ancient times, not only in China, Kings >were considered to be the son's of God or the voice of Heaven. I think its >possible that the bestowal of heaven's mandate was King Wen's creation of >the Yi. Do you think this tittle could means that he got the inspiration >from heaven or that the I Ching is talking about the power of heaven? The character "heaven" here is Tian, which is also sky or high. Tian is where dragons fly, as in Hexagram 1, Line 5. > >About history: - I prefer to accept the oral transmission history, that >states that he created the sequence and the hexagrams and his son the text >of the lines. How can we surely know what happened 3000 years ago if >sometimes we are not able to affirm what happened 50 years ago in our >history? We have many examples of people manipulating historical datas and >make they serve their interest and believes in the serious modern history , >So I prefer to stay with the words of the wise men from the past. Its nice >to see all the interesting things synologues discover about the I Ching, but >for me the interest is more in how they come to their conclusion then to >change my ideas about the I Ching. The system is here, so let's gets the >benefits we can get from it. > >Love >Ely > I too love the ancient tradition. Yet the Tao shows us things in this life, and I enjoy seeing how the pieces and ideas fit and complement, since all is One. 3,000 years of history are met with oracle bones that tell us more of this marvelous past. Archeology is a like moment of chance, for that which survives history's storms and may at last or never be uncovered is as a roll of the dice. Such events resonate with the Yi. Love Rhett ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 19 Mar 2000 15:00:29 -0500 From: "Dr R. Butler" Subject: Re: HEX8: mandate of heaven = Yi ? Hi Lothar, I appreciated your comments & offer a few in reply... > >I think, it was Wu, after the death of Wen, who did win against the Shang. >And it was the Duke of Chou, who is credited to have written the greater part >of I-Ching. Yes. According to Shaugnessy's discussion of Sima Qian's relative chronology of events King Wu [which mean "military"] who defeated the Shang in Year 12. King Wen died in year 7. The acknowledgement of the mandate was year 1. Wen is said to have had 10 primary sons. His oldest, Kao, pre-deceased him, Fa who became King Wu was Wen's second son, Dan [Duke of Zhou] was fourth, and Kang [of Hexagram 35 fame] was ninth. The Duke of Zhou is credited with writing most of the Line text. [of course since there are 6 per Hexagram, this is the largest textual part of the ZhouYi part of the Yi] >The essential thing about King Wen was, that he reigned rather long (about 50 >years). So it was difficult to King Wu and the Duke of Chou to overcome the >"shadow of the father". And it was normal, that this long-reigning father was >credited with "having invented with something". Wen was the head of the house of Zhou, under the Shang. Perhaps the credit was deserved in that he did invent it? >I think, the Duke of Chou as author is much more probable than King Wen. >After Wu's death he was a sort of chancellor and educator of the new young >king. As an educator he had a rather good chance to be active as a man of >literature (which mostly kings are not, as history proves; there are only few >writing kings - the "first sons" become rulers and the second and third have >a good chance to become intellectual - bishop, pope or something similar; and >the people in the second row become the writers). Wu died just two years after the conquest. The Duke of Zhou, acted as regent for seven years for his nephew, Wu's eldest son, Song [who became King Cheng]. During this time he had to put down a Shang rebellion, and extended and consolidated Zhou control throughout all of eastern China. >That the Duke of Chou >embedded teachings of his father (= King Wen) in the text, looks plausible to >me. Somehow he probably had some talking with him. Anyway, the 64 "names" of >hexagrams, which are credited to King Wen, are the most unstable part of the >text, as the Mawangdui proves (about 30 names are different there). Thirty-three of the sixty-four Names in the Mawangdui text differ in some degree from the received text. Many of these are phonetic loan character (possible scribal error in transcription from a verbal tradition) and simple graphical variation. In some significant cases, the silk text is damaged or unreadable, and the Names have been extrapolated (guessed). Even within the Mawangdui material, there are commentaries which allude to the received text. Shaugnessy notes historical references indicated that the received text existed in its current form prior to the Mawangdui ms. Is the glass a little empty of nearly full? For me the most compelling information from the Mawangdui ms is the overall stability of the YiJing text, based upon this exciting archeological find. The glass is nearly full. >And the head lines of the hexagrams (also credited to W