From owner-hexagram-8-digest@apocalypse.org Thu Apr 6 12:12:45 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA03517 for hexagram-8-digest-outgoing; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 12:12:45 -0400 Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2000 12:12:45 -0400 Message-Id: <200004061612.MAA03517@apocalypse.org> X-Authentication-Warning: apocalypse.org: majordom set sender to owner-hexagram-8-digest@apocalypse.org using -f From: owner-hexagram-8-digest@apocalypse.org (hexagram-8-digest) To: hexagram-8-digest@apocalypse.org Subject: hexagram-8-digest V1 #172 Reply-To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Sender: owner-hexagram-8-digest@apocalypse.org Errors-To: owner-hexagram-8-digest@apocalypse.org Precedence: bulk hexagram-8-digest Thursday, April 6 2000 Volume 01 : Number 172 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 22:06:35 -0600 From: omei shan Subject: Re: HEX8: practical i ching Hey, Marianne - Your statements re: timing are so true! Not every thing is predestined - Sometimes I get no response to a question because the issue is still pending. In this situation, all one can get is answers based on current trends, but people are free to change their mind, and do so all the time. Monica At 11:40 PM 03/31/2000 +0200, you wrote: >Hi Monica, >hi all, > >I also used *timing* in my consultations of the I Ching and >still use it now and again (when I am very impatient or curious >about something). My experiences are such: >- the wider a time span, the more cloudy the results >- some questions using time spans are evidently (as proven >later on) answered only with regard to the present situation, i.e. >with disregard of the time span/limit indicated >- some produce undoubtable nonsensic outcomes, >- others, of course, hit clearly in the right direction. > >My results with questionning about present or near future >situations are, compared with *longer-term* questions, usually >quite clear and true. And for me, too, sensitive and exact >wording is absolutely essential for my I Ching practice. > >In my view, events etc. can only be predestined where >the *seeds* (?, I would like to use the word used in the >English Wilhelm/Baynes translation, but I don't have the book) >already exist in the present. And I don't believe that every future >happening or development is predetermined: some indeed are >so, others are not. Seeds that already lie in the earth will produce >certain results; the outcome of seeds that are not yet in the earth >cannot be predicted as yet. The I Ching works with the perception/ >realization of the *seeds* that have already sunk in the ground, i.e. >are alreday a part of the (at least: inner/subconscious) present. (- Now >the question arises about what is contained in the subconscious mind, >I know :-)). In my opinion, *fate* exists only partly - some is *fate*, >and most is not. > >So far, I have never practised with any other oracle, but the I Ching, >so I can say nothing about runes or the Tarot. Obviously, the medium in >itself makes much difference. M. McLuhan's "The medium is the >message" may apply even well for oracle systems (as well (or not) as >for anything else). > >Marianne > > >-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht----- >Von: omei shan >An: >Gesendet: Freitag, 31. März 2000 22:41 >Betreff: Re: HEX8: practical i ching > > >> Your experiences with the I Ching as an oracle are exactly why I tend to >> favor runes and the Tarot. With the I Ching, I was always getting answers >> that *hinted at* or *pointed towards* instead of just giving a straight >> answer. >> >> I'm sure there are those who will say things like: "Well, your ego just >got >> in the way," or "You weren't meant to know," etc. If ego were the cause, >I >> wouldn't get an answer no matter which oracle system I used. >> >> True, ego can and sometimes does get in the way initially, but a sincere >> student quickly learns to put ego aside in order to get to the heart of a >> matter. (Notice I didn't say "the truth of the matter." Very subtle, yet >> significant difference!) >> >> >> When it comes to figuring out timings of events, the wording of the query >> can make the difference between a clear answer and, well, something that >> doesn't make much sense at all. I try to be fairly open - I ask *what* >> will take place during a certain time period, as opposed to *when* a >> certain event will take place. This leaves me open to more possibilities. >> >> >> Finally - yes, I do get more than one response per layout - There can be >as >> many levels of meaning as one wants. >> >> >> >> Monica >> >> >> >> >> At 04:09 PM 03/30/2000 EST, you wrote: >> >Hi Monica, >> > I used to ask often about what would be happening in the near future, >> and >> >I must admit I am unable to avoid doing it still sometimes. However, I >have >> >found that whatever oracle one gets is only an instantaneous reply and >may >> >well change in the next moment. >> > I once asked the oracle about this, and it replied with its >equivalent >> of >> >"Things Change" or "Stuff Happens" >> > In terms of actually useful oracles, I find asking the meaning (to >me) >> >or what is the symbolic description of the interaction gives results that >> are >> >more satisfying over time. >> > When I ask what is happening or how will something I care about turn >> >out, the oracle tends to reply with answers that either taunt me with >their >> >very clear dual interpretation -- equally excellent or terrible depending >> >upon the connotation used -- or else they describe possibilities I need >to >> >consider rather than actual fortunetelling about the eventual results. >> >Frank >> > >> > >> >===== >> >To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to >majordomo@apocalypse.org >> >from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. >> > >> >> >> >> ===== >> To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org >> from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. >> >> > > > >===== >To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org >from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. > ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 22:13:24 -0600 From: omei shan Subject: HEX8: Monica out for a few days Hey everybody! You won't be hearing from me for a few days - Doug and I are going to west Texas for a few days. We're going to check out the "Marfa Mystery Lights," the observatory, Ft. Davis State Park, etc. I've never been to West Texas, so we'll be taking plenty of pictures. We're leaving at about 5AM (less than 7 hours from now!) and will be taking Highway 90 up, then IH10 back. Play nice! Monica ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 01 Apr 2000 01:59:44 -0800 From: Ray Langley Subject: Re: HEX8: Monica out for a few days > Hey everybody! You won't be hearing from me for a few days - Doug and I > are going to west Texas for a few days. We're going to check out the > "Marfa Mystery Lights," the observatory, Ft. Davis State Park, etc. I've > never been to West Texas, so we'll be taking plenty of pictures. > Monica Monica, have a great time. But, you will only need to take ONE picture. West Texas all looks the same. It is miles and miles of miles and miles. :-) - -- Warmest Regards, Ray Have Luo Pan, Will Travel! ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 1 Apr 2000 10:32:13 -0500 From: "Dr R. Butler" Subject: HEX8: >> A lot of the interpretation of these particular passages (and others) >> depends on how you interpret what is meant by the character >> -- > The character appears throughout the Yi, notably in the Name and text of Hex61, and has been discussed in relation to Hex9, Line 4. Kunst has translated this as "capture". If you looks at Kunst's dissertation, he states in the very first sentences of his section on : "Fu' (GSR 1233a *p'iug) is the protograph for fu' (GSR1233d *p'iug) in most, possibly, all of the 42 occurrences of the graph in the text. It has the common OC meaning of fu' , 'capture in war ( prisoners or booty),' or the normalized counterpart, 'that which is captured, captive, booty.' " [since most don't have Chinese characters in their email, and we can't use GIF's, we must use word pictures ;-] Here is the character under discussion and is a single character combined from man on the left and on the right. That means "capture" is is well noted in Schuessler's "A Dictionary of Early Zhou Chinese", where specific instances of this usage in the YiZhouShu (a text of early Western Zhou, perhaps contemporaneous with the Yi) are clear. However, the usage of for "to trust, have confidence in, verify" is not limited to the Yi, but also is evident in contemporaneous usage in the Books of History and Poetry (see Schuessler's Dictionary). The essence of Kunst's discourse is that if we replace with in the text, the translation as capture follows. This is a premise. Should it be accepted? Many years ago when I first started studying the chinese characters of the Yi to figure out what they meant, I was interested in . Like all chinese characters, it is a picture. is a picture of a hand above the head of a child. Helmut Wilhelm followed the Shuowen [circa 200AD] definition of "(brooding) eggs; derived from 'claw' and 'child' in his book. It was never clear to me how this became, "sincere", "trustworthy", "have confidence in", or "verify". However, when I was holding my own daughter just after she was born, cradling her in my arms, holding her head with my hand, I recognized the inner meaning of . I saw it further as friends came over to see her, and they would place a hand and caress her softly on her head. Such trust! Later, I pondered Kunst's work. There is much in Kunst's dissertation I enjoy and admire. Yet his own discourse on does not resonate with me. He has chosen to gloss as . Yet, there are some beautiful examples of on bronzes, pottery, and oracle bones from a Shang tomb (circa 1300BC) showing the context of of a child in a trusting environment. The pictures (and there are dozens of them) in Noel Barnard's "The Study of Clan-Sign Inscriptions of Shang" article in "Studies of Shang Archeology" show a child by a woman or between two women, with a hand or frond-shape over the child. In these images one can see an etymological foundation for that is quite separate from the militaristics tone of . Rhett ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 1 Apr 2000 07:37:35 -0800 (PST) From: Stephen Field Subject: Re: HEX8: Monica out for a few days I know you're kidding, Ray. But be careful--I'm from West Texas, and we're pretty sensitive about our roots. Not that we'd ever move back there, mind you. - --- Ray Langley wrote: > > Hey everybody! You won't be hearing from me for a > few days - Doug and I > > are going to west Texas for a few days. We're > going to check out the > > "Marfa Mystery Lights," the observatory, Ft. > Davis State Park, etc. I've > > never been to West Texas, so we'll be taking > plenty of pictures. > > Monica > > Monica, have a great time. But, you will only need > to take ONE > picture. West Texas all looks the same. It is miles > and miles of > miles and miles. :-) > -- > Warmest Regards, Ray > Have Luo Pan, Will Travel! > > > ===== > To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to > majordomo@apocalypse.org > from the address subscribed, containing just the > word UNSUBSCRIBE. > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 2 Apr 2000 12:53:36 EDT From: Autorbis@aol.com Subject: Re: HEX8: Re: Ibn Gabirol and Neoplatonists Hi Frank, I had a look at the Sabian page. As I saw, the central theme seems to be based on a channelling-process in the 20ies, in which the 360 degrees of the Zodiac got a "new", "channeled" meaning. A similar try was done by Franz Bardon in a rather complex way around the same time. It appeared in "Die Praxis der magischen Evokation", Hermann Bauer Verlag, Freiburg, 1956. In a special chapter: "Die 360 Vorsteher der Erdgürtelzone" he gives the names of the "Vorsteher" and their special qualities. 13° Aries, that's today, as an example, is called Opilon, and can help the magician in all operations, either by himself or by his servants. He is especially good in attaining knowledge in practical matters. Bardon claimed, that he is able to evocate all these "Vorsteher", also 24 others of the same region, also 28 rulers of the sphere of the moon, also 72 rulers of the mercury-sphere, 90 of the venus, 45 of the sun, 36 of the mars, 12 of the Jupiter and 49 of the saturn. Very impressive. Also he gives magical signs (paintings), by which they could be evocated. Personally I'm a little sceptical about the worth of such modern tries. I'm interested in historical systems of older age ... Well, I also detected, that the Sabians has a special love for Ibn Gabirol. I was not lucky in exploring, what these magical squares are, that you noted. Generally I think, that, if already the Sepher Yetzirah constituted a similarity of system between Jewish ideas and I-Ching, a reappearance of similarity between I-Ching and teachings of Ibn Gabirol shouldn't surprize too much. In that case he was just following older traditions, he's not the origin of this similarity. It's also not surprizing, that there are similarities between Kabbala and Tarot on one side and I-Ching on the other side: Tarot and Kabbala followed both in some details the older source of Sepher Yetzirah. Lothar ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 2 Apr 2000 14:38:45 EDT From: FKegan@aol.com Subject: HEX8: Re: First use doctrine Hi Lothar, I am intrigued by your reliance upon the first use or older traditions. For current publication and academic stuff, I well understand the interest in being able to claim personal priority, but I can only see the personal ego interest in such stuff. The history of technology seems to indicate that when there is a new breakthrough insight, it is the beginning not the highpoint of development for about 100 years (pretty much the lifetime of the original researchers and those trained directly by them). Then things tail off as hands-on understanding disappears and what remains becomes ritual and magic until some later time when a similar breakthrough insight is made and those researchers notice that under the ritual and legend is a very similar understanding. By the way, what year or century is the Sepher Yetzirah? As for the Sabian Insights (which fit well the traditional pattern of being new breakthroughs that allow a hands on understanding of what was meant by the original insights (and which are now pretty well on to the magic and legend phase with most of the traditional Sabian Students) they are instructive for their example about how these things get worked out. Marc Jones himself distrusted his Sabian Symbols greatly, and the formal I find most insightful, called the mimeo version, he specifically asked not to be used since he found them uncomfortable. OTOH, what makes one uncomfortable is often the stark truth. As a detail, Ibn Gabirol was a poet of the mid-11th century who ran more on his personal intuition than following any tradition. The Ibn Gabirol Magic Squares are actually the creation of Marc Jones, they have no direct connection to Ibn Gabirol. And their interest is more as an analogy or example of a system where a metaphysical grid is established and concepts placed in that matrix. It's relevance to the I Ching is that it is an example of using sequence in two dimensions, that is fixed sets in two independent perspectives which then fix an individual concept (or hexagram name) in position. There is always the nagging question with any of our correlations whether there is some actual relationship to the fundamental structure or merely a general symmetry which is being reflected. I find that especially relevant with Monica's use of Cartesian axes in various orientations with Western logical opposites applied to the trigrams. They certainly have no place in Chinese metaphysics, though as a well-crafted system reflecting elegant patterns, the sequence of hexagrams would be expected to return symmetrical results in all sorts of irrelevant perspectives. The ancient generally has only the advantage of being distant and thus seen only in abstract idealism. What is delightful about Marc Jones' work is that it is recent enough to actually see the process, flaws as well as brilliance, and thus it makes a good model for our own insights. Frank ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 2 Apr 2000 19:58:47 EDT From: Autorbis@aol.com Subject: Re: HEX8: Re: First use doctrine Hi Frank, I am intrigued by your reliance upon the first use or older traditions. For current publication and academic stuff, I well understand the interest in being able to claim personal priority, but I can only see the personal ego interest in such stuff. ### :-) well, I think, it has nothing to do with personal ego to ask the question, how things have "really" developed. A hypothesis like "Ibn Gabirol produced something similar to I-Ching" immediately raises the question, if there was something similar to I-Ching near to Ibn Gabirol before the time of Ibn Gabirol. In the case, that one can answer this question with "yes, there was ....", then this source is naturally of great interest, and it is a natural conclusion, that "Ibn Gabirol was - probably - influenced by this source" (much more probable then "Ibn Gabirol had a hidden teacher from China" for instance). As far I do remember, Gerschom Scholem notes, that Gabirol gives somewhere a statement about Sepher Yetzirah, so it looks like a proven fact, that "Inb Gabirol knew about the Sepher Yetzirah". ### The history of technology seems to indicate that when there is a new breakthrough insight, it is the beginning not the highpoint of development for about 100 years (pretty much the lifetime of the original researchers and those trained directly by them). Then things tail off as hands-on understanding disappears and what remains becomes ritual and magic until some later time when a similar breakthrough insight is made and those researchers notice that under the ritual and legend is a very similar understanding. By the way, what year or century is the Sepher Yetzirah? ### The appearance of the Sepher Yetzrah is estimated from 1st - 5th century AD by various scholars. There is one commentary giving relativly clear evidence of its existence around the 6th century, and there is clear evidence by a commentary of Saadiah Gaon, who wrote before Ibn Gabirol. ### Lothar ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2000 13:29:30 EDT From: Autorbis@aol.com Subject: Re: HEX8: Chinese Calendar(s), was: 13 lunar months Hi Ray, thanks for this info, I nearly overlooked it. Well, our "Western" calendar also knows a lot of diverging features, and I wonder, if it looks rather complicated to a Chinese. First, we've a "normal" solar year. Then we've an independant system of week-counting, a rather important structure of our Western world, each accompanied by an ancient god or a planet. Then we've a church-year, which was also of rather big importance in the recent past, together with a day-system, in which each day of the solar year was accompanied by a mysterious person, an holy man or a sage. Then we've a special hour measuring system (24; 60; 60), and in Astrology each of this hours is reigned by a god or planet. Then we've a rather complex astrology with a lot of minor subsystems like palmistry, face-reading, divination by letters-of-name-counting etc.. Then we've a lot of calendar differences in the past with 6 different starts of the year in Europe during the medieval times, then we've a lot of calendar-changes (the Gregorian change for instance), which weren't taken in one day, but took 200 years to become accepted in all European countries. Then we'd the French revolutionary calendar, and we've the Islamic year and the Jewish year. And so on and so on ... For instance the old Greek did use about 400 different names for their 12 monthes (only those, from which we do know, are counted), cause each city seems to have had an own calendar - an unbelievable complexity for a Chinese with the wish to understand Europrean calendar. Cause of this European complexity in this question, I can't imagine, that your info about the Chinese calendar is really complete - there should be much more, if one looks a little more precisely. And there should be some older calendar-systems, from which even the Chinese don't know, that they ever had them. Just taking the fact, that China in its history was not always a united country, one should assume a lot of earlier differences. Greetings Lothar < Hi Lothar, if we include our Western calendar, the Chinese now use three different calendar systems: In the Qing Dynasty, 1741, the first edition was called the "Wan Nian Li". This is a word-for-word translation, meaning 10,000 Year Calendar. Each edition of the "Wan Nian Li" contains somewhat less than 10,000 years. My book shows the years from 1882 - 2031. The Qing Government also issued a yearly edition to correct the inaccurate calculations in the "Wan Nian Li". In 1912, a new government formed, and announced that it was choosing the Gregorian calendar as the standard calendar. At this time, the government issued a new calendar book which it called the People's Republic of China Calendar Book. It still recorded the Chinese Lunar Calendar. After 1953, the Government in mainland China proclaimed that all calendar publishing must conform to the rules set by the calculations of the Purple Mountain Observatory because there were two editions of the calendar in mainland China during that period. One of these two versions said that the 6th lunar month was a "small month" and that the 7th lunar month was a "big month". The other stated just the opposite. Also, in 1989, the Purple Mountain Observatory calculated that the 6th lunar month was a "big month" (30 days), and that month 7 was a "small month" (29 days). But, the Taiwanese edition of the calendar said that the 6th month was small and that the 7th was big. So, be aware that there may be some differences between calendars that are published in mainland China and Taiwan. In olden times, the ancient astronomers devised a very clever method to combine the Chinese Lunar and Solar calendars into a single system. This system is called the 10,000 Year Calendar. The Solar New Year is always on either Feb. 4 or Feb. 5. This date is known as "Li Chun", or Spring Begins. Since the *Lunar New Year* did not begin until Feb 16, 1999, Li Chun occurred in the 12 Lunar Month of *1998*. So, it is not shown on the pages of the 1999 calendar. The first Lunar Month of 1999 runs from 2/16 to 3/17. The first Solar Month of 1999 runs from 2/04 to 3/05. The second Lunar Month of 1999 runs from 3/18 to 4/15. The second Solar Month of 1999 runs from 3/06 to 4/04. The Solar Calendar has 12 months. The Lunar Calendar usually has 12 months, but some years it has a 13th month (leap month). -- Warmest Regards, Ray Have Luo Pan, Will Travel! >> ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2000 20:34:13 +0200 From: "Marianne.Goeppel" Subject: Re: HEX8: re Calendar Hi, some nice calendar links that might be interesting: http://www.karl-may-stiftung.de/kalender/ewkal.htm http://search.britannica.com/bcom/search/results/1,5843,,00.html?p_query0=ca lendar (+ the Encyclopaedia Britannica is one of my best links in many ways) Marianne - -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht----- Von: An: Gesendet: Montag, 3. April 2000 19:29 Betreff: Re: HEX8: Chinese Calendar(s), was: 13 lunar months > > Hi Ray, thanks for this info, I nearly overlooked it. > > Well, our "Western" calendar also knows a lot of diverging features, and I > wonder, if it looks rather complicated to a Chinese. > > First, we've a "normal" solar year. Then we've an independant system of > week-counting, a rather important structure of our Western world, each > accompanied by an ancient god or a planet. Then we've a church-year, which > was also of rather big importance in the recent past, together with a > day-system, in which each day of the solar year was accompanied by a > mysterious person, an holy man or a sage. Then we've a special hour measuring > system (24; 60; 60), and in Astrology each of this hours is reigned by a god > or planet. Then we've a rather complex astrology with a lot of minor > subsystems like palmistry, face-reading, divination by > letters-of-name-counting etc.. > Then we've a lot of calendar differences in the past with 6 different starts > of the year in Europe during the medieval times, then we've a lot of > calendar-changes (the Gregorian change for instance), which weren't taken in > one day, but took 200 years to become accepted in all European countries. > Then we'd the French revolutionary calendar, and we've the Islamic year and > the Jewish year. And so on and so on ... > For instance the old Greek did use about 400 different names for their 12 > monthes (only those, from which we do know, are counted), cause each city > seems to have had an own calendar - an unbelievable complexity for a Chinese > with the wish to understand Europrean calendar. > > Cause of this European complexity in this question, I can't imagine, that > your info about the Chinese calendar is really complete - there should be > much more, if one looks a little more precisely. And there should be some > older calendar-systems, from which even the Chinese don't know, that they > ever had them. > Just taking the fact, that China in its history was not always a united > country, one should assume a lot of earlier differences. > > Greetings > > Lothar > > > < Hi Lothar, if we include our Western calendar, the Chinese now use > three different calendar systems: > > In the Qing Dynasty, 1741, the first edition was called the "Wan Nian > Li". This is a word-for-word translation, meaning 10,000 Year Calendar. > > Each edition of the "Wan Nian Li" contains somewhat less than 10,000 > years. My book shows the years from 1882 - 2031. The Qing Government > also issued a yearly edition to correct the inaccurate calculations > in the "Wan Nian Li". In 1912, a new government formed, and announced > that it was choosing the Gregorian calendar as the standard calendar. > > At this time, the government issued a new calendar book which it called > the People's Republic of China Calendar Book. It still recorded the > Chinese Lunar Calendar. After 1953, the Government in mainland China > proclaimed that all calendar publishing must conform to the rules set > by the calculations of the Purple Mountain Observatory because there > were two editions of the calendar in mainland China during that period. > One of these two versions said that the 6th lunar month was a "small > month" and that the 7th lunar month was a "big month". The other stated > just the opposite. Also, in 1989, the Purple Mountain Observatory > calculated that the 6th lunar month was a "big month" (30 days), and > that month 7 was a "small month" (29 days). But, the Taiwanese edition > of the calendar said that the 6th month was small and that the 7th was > big. > > So, be aware that there may be some differences between calendars that > are published in mainland China and Taiwan. > > In olden times, the ancient astronomers devised a very clever method > to combine the Chinese Lunar and Solar calendars into a single system. > This system is called the 10,000 Year Calendar. > > The Solar New Year is always on either Feb. 4 or Feb. 5. This date > is known as "Li Chun", or Spring Begins. > > Since the *Lunar New Year* did not begin until Feb 16, 1999, Li Chun > occurred in the 12 Lunar Month of *1998*. So, it is not shown on the > pages of the 1999 calendar. > > The first Lunar Month of 1999 runs from 2/16 to 3/17. > The first Solar Month of 1999 runs from 2/04 to 3/05. > > The second Lunar Month of 1999 runs from 3/18 to 4/15. > The second Solar Month of 1999 runs from 3/06 to 4/04. > > The Solar Calendar has 12 months. > > The Lunar Calendar usually has 12 months, but some years it > has a 13th month (leap month). > -- > Warmest Regards, Ray > Have Luo Pan, Will Travel! > >> > > > ===== > To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org > from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. > > ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2000 17:43:34 -0700 (PDT) From: Stephen Field Subject: Re: HEX8: - --- "Dr R. Butler" wrote: > > Yet, there are some beautiful examples of on > bronzes, pottery, and > oracle bones from a Shang tomb (circa 1300BC) > showing the context of of a > child in a trusting environment. The pictures (and > there are dozens of > them) in Noel Barnard's "The Study of Clan-Sign > Inscriptions of Shang" > article in "Studies of Shang Archeology" show a > child by a woman or between > two women, with a hand or frond-shape over the > child. In these images one > can see an etymological foundation for that is > quite separate from the > militaristics tone of . Actually, the that you see in Noel Barnard's article is not the meaning, "captive" or "trust." It is instead the of "Fu Hao," the (ritual, if not personal) name of the woman buried in the tomb where the bronze items were discovered. The "hao" of "Fu Hao" is composed of a woman and a child, and the is a "broom." Chang Ping-ch'uan, in the article just preceding Barnard's in Studies of Shang Archaeology, speculates that the is that of , "womankind" (a "broom" next to a "woman"), so that the name "Fu Hao" would be something like "Hao, the Consort." __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2000 16:25:12 -0400 From: "Dr R. Butler" Subject: Re: HEX8: >--- "Dr R. Butler" wrote: >> >> Yet, there are some beautiful examples of on >> bronzes, pottery, and >> oracle bones from a Shang tomb (circa 1300BC) >> showing the context of of a >> child in a trusting environment. The pictures (and >> there are dozens of >> them) in Noel Barnard's "The Study of Clan-Sign >> Inscriptions of Shang" >> article in "Studies of Shang Archeology" show a >> child by a woman or between >> two women, with a hand or frond-shape over the >> child. In these images one >> can see an etymological foundation for that is >> quite separate from the >> militaristics tone of . > >Actually, the that you see in Noel Barnard's >article is not the meaning, "captive" or >"trust." It is instead the of "Fu Hao," the >(ritual, if not personal) name of the woman buried in >the tomb where the bronze items were discovered. The >"hao" of "Fu Hao" is composed of a woman and a child, >and the is a "broom." Chang Ping-ch'uan, in the >article just preceding Barnard's in Studies of Shang >Archaeology, speculates that the is that of nyu3>, "womankind" (a "broom" next to a "woman"), so >that the name "Fu Hao" would be something like "Hao, >the Consort." > Hi Stephen, I am glad that there are others that look at such obscure books! The mapping from the inscriptions to modern characters in part depends upon how one parses the elements of the picture. For others in Hex8 without the book at hand, I could perhaps offer a thousand words, but a picture will suffice. In deference to Ron's desire to ascii purity :-o please point your Web browser to http://www.iris.iris.edu/rhett/fu.gif and see for yourself. All the best, Rhett ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2000 22:42:25 EDT From: FKegan@aol.com Subject: Re: HEX8: Re: First use doctrine Hi Lothar, We seem to have miscommunicated a bit. It is not that Ibn Gabirol created anything like the I Ching at all. My comment was that his work actually sums up to one or two sentences at the end of 200+ pages of medieval argument. His insights are clearly those of his person, a poet and military man with deep mystic roots. Nothing at all of any system that could be derived from another in terms of number patterns or the like. The connection to the I Ching would be that hexagram one [Ch'ien], Ibn Gabirol, and by the UN conference of indigenous people's religions of the world all find the root of religious awe is the appreciation of the symbolism connected to water cycle based upon the interaction of geography and Solar celestial mechanics. As to the scholars, they see connections in their texts which have little relation to any actual origin or influence. The fact that volumes are catalogued next to each other in a library may make them seem connected to those who only read the material in that library, but trying to actually understand, duplicate or do parallel work with the insights quickly leads to understanding things aren't quite that simple. The connection I referred to was between Marc Jones' work which he called "The Ibn Gabirol Magic Squares" which relates sequence and philosophical sets to explain and develop concepts. All of this refers to work in metaphysics that has no relation to what was published when or any claim that some set of work was derived from any other. I am aware that such is a major occupation in the History of Philosophy, which is most of what academics know about philosophy. I prefer the view that human knowledge is bounded by the structure of the human mind and all the great insights are probably available equally to folks in any time or place. Tapping into those insights happens on its own schedule and most claims to have discovered something deeper or better is probably only the result of not sufficiently appreciating other discoveries. All of that aside, I still am not clear exactly why you believe the first use was the best and therefore any subsequent work must be derived from it. I am aware that is a widespread belief. I just have never been able to find any reasonable explanation for why that should be so. Frank ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2000 10:15:18 -0600 From: "Schmidt, Walter." Subject: RE: HEX8: Re: First use doctrine FKegan@aol.com wrote: < The connection to the I Ching would be that hexagram one [Ch'ien], Ibn Gabirol, and by the UN conference of indigenous people's religions of the world all find the root of religious awe is the appreciation of the symbolism connected to water cycle based upon the interaction of geography and Solar celestial mechanics.> huh? I would suggest that the concept in the second paragraph above has direct applicability to the first. Are you sure you're not doing a little Glass Bead Game playing here? ws > -----Original Message----- > From: FKegan@aol.com [SMTP:FKegan@aol.com] > Sent: Wednesday, April 05, 2000 9:42 PM > To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org > Subject: Re: HEX8: Re: First use doctrine > > Hi Lothar, > We seem to have miscommunicated a bit. It is not that Ibn Gabirol > created anything like the I Ching at all. My comment was that his work > actually sums up to one or two sentences at the end of 200+ pages of > medieval > argument. His insights are clearly those of his person, a poet and > military > man with deep mystic roots. Nothing at all of any system that could be > derived from another in terms of number patterns or the like. The > connection > to the I Ching would be that hexagram one [Ch'ien], Ibn Gabirol, and by > the > UN conference of indigenous people's religions of the world all find the > root > of religious awe is the appreciation of the symbolism connected to water > cycle based upon the interaction of geography and Solar celestial > mechanics. > As to the scholars, they see connections in their texts which have > little relation to any actual origin or influence. The fact that volumes > are > catalogued next to each other in a library may make them seem connected to > > those who only read the material in that library, but trying to actually > understand, duplicate or do parallel work with the insights quickly leads > to > understanding things aren't quite that simple. > The connection I referred to was between Marc Jones' work which he > called "The Ibn Gabirol Magic Squares" which relates sequence and > philosophical sets to explain and develop concepts. > All of this refers to work in metaphysics that has no relation to > what > was published when or any claim that some set of work was derived from any > > other. I am aware that such is a major occupation in the History of > Philosophy, which is most of what academics know about philosophy. I > prefer > the view that human knowledge is bounded by the structure of the human > mind > and all the great insights are probably available equally to folks in any > time or place. Tapping into those insights happens on its own schedule and > > most claims to have discovered something deeper or better is probably only > > the result of not sufficiently appreciating other discoveries. > All of that aside, I still am not clear exactly why you believe the > first use was the best and therefore any subsequent work must be derived > from > it. I am aware that is a widespread belief. I just have never been able to > > find any reasonable explanation for why that should be so. > Frank > > > > ===== > To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org > from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ End of hexagram-8-digest V1 #172 ******************************** From owner-hexagram-8-digest@apocalypse.org Fri Apr 14 10:57:57 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA18632 for hexagram-8-digest-outgoing; Fri, 14 Apr 2000 10:57:57 -0400 Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2000 10:57:57 -0400 Message-Id: <200004141457.KAA18632@apocalypse.org> X-Authentication-Warning: apocalypse.org: majordom set sender to owner-hexagram-8-digest@apocalypse.org using -f From: owner-hexagram-8-digest@apocalypse.org (hexagram-8-digest) To: hexagram-8-digest@apocalypse.org Subject: hexagram-8-digest V1 #173 Reply-To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Sender: owner-hexagram-8-digest@apocalypse.org Errors-To: owner-hexagram-8-digest@apocalypse.org Precedence: bulk hexagram-8-digest Friday, April 14 2000 Volume 01 : Number 173 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2000 18:11:29 EDT From: Autorbis@aol.com Subject: Re: HEX8: Re: First use doctrine Hi Frank, << Hi Lothar, We seem to have miscommunicated a bit. It is not that Ibn Gabirol created anything like the I Ching at all. My comment was that his work actually sums up to one or two sentences at the end of 200+ pages of medieval argument. His insights are clearly those of his person, a poet and military man with deep mystic roots. Nothing at all of any system that could be derived from another in terms of number patterns or the like. The connection to the I Ching would be that hexagram one [Ch'ien], Ibn Gabirol, and by the UN conference of indigenous people's religions of the world all find the root of religious awe is the appreciation of the symbolism connected to water cycle based upon the interaction of geography and Solar celestial mechanics. As to the scholars, they see connections in their texts which have little relation to any actual origin or influence. The fact that volumes are catalogued next to each other in a library may make them seem connected to those who only read the material in that library, but trying to actually understand, duplicate or do parallel work with the insights quickly leads to understanding things aren't quite that simple. The connection I referred to was between Marc Jones' work which he called "The Ibn Gabirol Magic Squares" which relates sequence and philosophical sets to explain and develop concepts. All of this refers to work in metaphysics that has no relation to what was published when or any claim that some set of work was derived from any other. I am aware that such is a major occupation in the History of Philosophy, which is most of what academics know about philosophy. I prefer the view that human knowledge is bounded by the structure of the human mind and all the great insights are probably available equally to folks in any time or place. Tapping into those insights happens on its own schedule and most claims to have discovered something deeper or better is probably only the result of not sufficiently appreciating other discoveries. ## Well, probably I did misunderstood your words. I got from your words the imagination, that Ibn Gabirol presents himself together with "magical squares" as a forerunner of the kabbalistical systems. Then I learned from you, that these magical squares are done by somebody else in Ibn Gabirols name. Well, I misinterpreted you .... I've read, that's Fons Vitae is a poem, right, but one never knows :-). Communication is difficult and English is not my native language. ### All of that aside, I still am not clear exactly why you believe the first use was the best and therefore any subsequent work must be derived from it. I am aware that is a widespread belief. I just have never been able to find any reasonable explanation for why that should be so. ### There is not a question about quality. The first, who came up with a special idea, is just the origin of an idea, as far as history can gather the facts correctly. There may have been conditions, that someone after this "origin of the idea", got the same idea independently, however, in the case, that there are some social-historical conditions known, which guide to the conclusion, that "he got the idea from this source", then the context tells something about the development of the special idea, also something about the background of the first and second writer etc.. You simply get some more informations by observing "earlier" and "later". The question of the "best" representation of the idea isn't important in this observation. Often the second writer has the better chances to appear better because he's nearer to our time, so seems to be better understandable. ### ### My own research is about comparing various systems with some mathematical background. Questions like: "Did they follow the same structure" or "does the systems influence each other" and "are they similar, cause they influenced each other" appear very naturally. The question "who did the best representation" has only a minor importance. The systems are simply there, often you've only rudimentary informations about the background and naturally no real base to do any judgment. You've just a few informations and with some luck you get a few more to make the picture in your mind a little better. That's all. ### Lothar ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2000 12:10:05 EDT From: FKegan@aol.com Subject: Re: HEX8: Re: First use doctrine Hi WS, I am not quite clear about your reference to Hesse's Magister Ludi. You seem to have a different view of that game than did Hesse. From your "huh" remark I can only assume you find the reference in my comments outside your expected domain. It is common to relate the I Ching to events and processes in human experience in the world. Underlying such a perspective is an assumption that the symbolism of the I Ching can be related to the processes of human life. Western science assumes all can be explained from Genesis and Aristotle as interpreted by Newton and probability. Others assume there is a fundamental cyclic process which can be related to our experience of natural events. There is a shared understanding that all life and weather are the result of the interaction of solar energy, celestial dynamics of the sun and the interaction of Earth's geography. In scientific theory this is controlled by simple equations and probability. Others find a more explicit relationship which can be expressed in terms of the symbolism of the I Ching. If you had made more of an expression of your own perspective we could discuss it. As it is, I can only comment that I realize my remarks are outside your experience, but I am not clear if that is really my problem or yours. Frank ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2000 12:10:33 EDT From: FKegan@aol.com Subject: HEX8: Re: First use doctrine Hi Lothar, Ibn Gabirol was a poet and philosopher. I believe "The Crown" is the name of his major philosophical poem, mostly on the structure of the Cosmos in terms of ancient spheres upon the outermost sits the feet of God's Throne. The Fons Vitae (Living Fountain or Fountain of Life) is all philosophy, 200+ pages argument establishing that at root there is the creative integration of form and material to produce the experienced world. I guess you have explained first use doctrine as well as it can be explained. The question of how texts relate based solely upon their date of publication without any demonstration of an actual connection (like the author of the later one read the former one) remains its own issue. In our own work, there certainly feels as though there is a difference between what one has used as source material and what only others note is similar to sources they are more familiar with, especially as usually folks commenting how work "is just such and such work restated" seem to be more interested in saving themselves the trouble of considering anything besides what they are already familiar with before. I have found that particularly true for those thinking Ibn Gabirol was Neo-Platonist. Frank ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 08 Apr 2000 17:05:46 -0700 From: wayne_rebecca Subject: HEX8: slightly off topic pattern Hi, this is slightly off topic, but related. There are several Schools of Feng Shui, one being the 8 house system. The basic premise is that for each person, they have a "Personal Bagua" whose features are determined by when the were born, and the trigrams interaction with the later heaven trigram arrangement. For an article on how these are calculated, see this article written by listmember Lorraine Wilcox. http://www.geocities.com/zhen_qi/02eighthousederstars.html My question is this.... Why does the pattern stay the same "philosophically"? What is significant about the line from between south/southwest, and north/northeast, that makes it the dividing line between the eastgroup and westgroup? south good good / bad / east good / bad west / bad / good bad north This pattern stays the same for 4 of the houses, and then reverses for the other four. Does anyone know what this pattern represents? wayne - -- Wayne & Rebecca Lowry Springfield, Oregon wayne_rebecca@iname.com ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 08 Apr 2000 19:30:08 -0700 From: Ray Langley Subject: HEX8: slightly off topic pattern > this is slightly off topic, but related. There are several Schools of > Feng Shui, one being the 8 house system. > > The basic premise is that for each person, they have a "Personal Bagua" > whose features are determined by when the were born, and the trigrams > interaction with the later heaven trigram arrangement. > > For an article on how these are calculated, see this article written > by listmember Lorraine Wilcox. > http://www.geocities.com/zhen_qi/02eighthousederstars.html > > My question is this.... > Why does the pattern stay the same "philosophically"? What is > significant about the line from between south/southwest, and > north/northeast, that makes it the dividing line between the > eastgroup and westgroup? > > south > good good / bad > / > east good / bad west > / > bad / good bad > north > > This pattern stays the same for 4 of the houses, and then reverses > for the other four. > > Does anyone know what this pattern represents? > > wayne Hi Wayne. Since you posted this to at least two lists, I am answering it to two lists. This is explained in Master Larry Sang's book, "Principles of Feng Shui, Book One", in some detail. I sometimes refer to this procedure as a "transmigration" of Trigrams. It has to do with "changing lines" of a Trigram. Like many other things in Chinese metaphysics, it follows a "set" pattern or formula. - -- Warmest Regards, Ray Have Luo Pan, Will Travel! ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 09 Apr 2000 09:30:55 -0700 From: wayne_rebecca Subject: HEX8: Re: [ChineseAstrology] slightly off topic pattern Hi, I understand the trigram line derivation, but what does the fact that all of them follow this pattern mean from the I ching perspective? Not "how is it this way", but "Why". wayne Ray Langley wrote: > > My question is this.... > > Why does the pattern stay the same "philosophically"? What is > > significant about the line from between south/southwest, and > > north/northeast, that makes it the dividing line between the > > eastgroup and westgroup? > > Hi Wayne. Since you posted this to at least two lists, I am answering > it to two lists. This is explained in Master Larry Sang's book, > "Principles of Feng Shui, Book One", in some detail. > > I sometimes refer to this procedure as a "transmigration" of > Trigrams. It has to do with "changing lines" of a Trigram. Like > many other things in Chinese metaphysics, it follows a "set" > pattern or formula. - -- Wayne & Rebecca Lowry Springfield, Oregon wayne_rebecca@iname.com ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 9 Apr 2000 16:57:09 -0700 (PDT) From: Stephen Field Subject: Re: HEX8: slightly off topic pattern - --- wayne_rebecca wrote: > My question is this.... > Why does the pattern stay the same > "philosophically"? What is > significant about the line from between > south/southwest, and > north/northeast, that makes it the dividing line > between the > eastgroup and westgroup? The answer to your question is fairly complicated, and I addressed it in great detail in an article called "The Numerology of Nine Star Fengshui: A Hetu, Luoshu Resolution of the Mystery of Directional Auspice," in Journal of Chinese Religions, No. 27 (1999): 13-33. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 09 Apr 2000 23:28:59 -0700 From: Ray Langley Subject: Re: HEX8: slightly off topic pattern Wayne wrote: > > My question is this.... Why does the pattern stay the same > > "philosophically"? What is > > significant about the line from between > > south/southwest, and > > north/northeast, that makes it the dividing line > > between the eastgroup and westgroup? Stephen Field wrote: > The answer to your question is fairly complicated, and > I addressed it in great detail in an article called > "The Numerology of Nine Star Fengshui: A Hetu, Luoshu > Resolution of the Mystery of Directional Auspice," in > Journal of Chinese Religions, No. 27 (1999): 13-33. Hi Wayne and Stephen, I agree that it is a complicated explanation! There is a "quick and easy", "down and dirty" method to this problem. I have been asked not to reveal it on the internet. Wayne, the next time you come to visit, I will teach you the complete method, in person. In the meantime, here is the "Rosetta Stone": 2 3 1 8 4 6 7 9 Place the Trigram Number of the "House" in the Center. Add it to each of the other numbers.... this is all I can say at this time. Here is one tip... anytime the center number (Trigram) and the other number is either 1-6, 2-7, 3-8, 4-9, it is the "best" number. Good luck. Whenever the two numbers add up to 6 or 14, it is the "worst" number/palace. - -- Warmest Regards, Ray Have Luo Pan, Will Travel! ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 12:34:44 -0700 From: "dlesper or cathbell" Subject: HEX8: Above and below I believe that there are correlations between Taoism and the physical world. The I Ching is to Taoism what mathematics is to physics. Last November we started an interesting discussion about Yin/Yang and space/time. I found the ideas intriguing, and since then have been reading about the current state of physics. My readings have taken me to String Theory. String Theory postulates that all particles and forces are comprised of vibrating strings, and how they vibrate determines their nature. There’s a number of interesting ideas that come out of String Theory. As I see it, there are two basic types of forces: the binding force (the strong nuclear and gravity), and the expanding force (the weak nuclear and electromagnetic (interestingly enough, if the pressures are high enough these two forces become one.)) The expanding forces are the Yang, and the binding forces are the Yin? String Theory seems also to allow what I call the Big Bounce. If the universe started with a Big Bang, and if it is sufficiently dense, it will end with the Big Crunch. String Theory allows that as the universe gets to a minimum size, it starts to expand again. It appears that as one of the units we use to measure the universe becomes smaller, another inverse unit becomes bigger. The total mass and energy are always equal. String Theory also allows for all energies to have their opposites, and quantum mechanics has all energies in the universe being balanced. These ideas sounds very Taoist to me. There are a number of other fascinating ideas (such as the 11 dimensional universe), but with my limited knowledge of String Theory so far, I don’t see yet how they relate to Taoism or the I Ching. Does anyone know of any scholarly mailing lists that discusses physics and Taoism where I can flesh out my ideas? Does anyone here have any comments? Best Regards, Darren ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 19:23:02 EDT From: Autorbis@aol.com Subject: Re: HEX8: Re: First use doctrine << Hi Lothar, Ibn Gabirol was a poet and philosopher. I believe "The Crown" is the name of his major philosophical poem, mostly on the structure of the Cosmos in terms of ancient spheres upon the outermost sits the feet of God's Throne. The Fons Vitae (Living Fountain or Fountain of Life) is all philosophy, 200+ pages argument establishing that at root there is the creative integration of form and material to produce the experienced world. I guess you have explained first use doctrine as well as it can be explained. The question of how texts relate based solely upon their date of publication without any demonstration of an actual connection (like the author of the later one read the former one) remains its own issue. In our own work, there certainly feels as though there is a difference between what one has used as source material and what only others note is similar to sources they are more familiar with, especially as usually folks commenting how work "is just such and such work restated" seem to be more interested in saving themselves the trouble of considering anything besides what they are already familiar with before. I have found that particularly true for those thinking Ibn Gabirol was Neo-Platonist. Frank >> Hi Frank, the "throne" is a general jewish concept based upon the visions of Ezechiel. It was very popular in the early centuries after Christ. Well, perhaps you're right, that Ibn Gabirol should be seen as an outstanding thinker. I haven't read him, so I can't judge it. Most of my dictionaries don't know him, but one states, that he was rather important and got much influence on some of the great spirits in medieval time. One other knows him under the name Avicebron. Perhaps I'll have a walk to the University library to get some more informations. My CD about various texts of philosophy knows him also under Avicebron, as this he is noted in the texts of Thomas from Aquin and of Bruno. Bruno thinks, that he is an Arabic philosoph. Western philosophy is very special about special terms (in the case of Ibn Gabirol it's very special about "form" and "materia"). One has to ask, if the Chinese could have taken the same route, as they were hindered by a limited number of Chinese signs, if it was possible for them, to "emerge in words" as it was done in Western philosophy. Before you entered Hexagram-8, in autumn 1999, we had a longer discussion here, if some of the older chinese thinker could mean with "yin" and "yang" something, which in some way could be comparable to our Western definition of "time" and "space" (beside other definitions for yin + yang). Of course one could raise the alternative question, if Ibn Gabirols "form" and "materia" is ALSO comparable to the Chinese "yin+yang", perhaps as a result of their limited possibilities of language or because our limited imaginations about the subtleties of Chinese communication :-) After all I could imagine, that a medieval philosoph - with a mathematical model in the background like all these neoplatonists had - could create easily a form-materia-dualism similar to the model of I-Ching with similar intentions - to show the world, how wonderful God had created the universe. But if this is provable or at least, if it is possible to show that it is likely, might be a much more difficult task. Greetings Lothar ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 11:30:26 EDT From: FKegan@aol.com Subject: Re: HEX8: Above and below Hi Darren, As an undergraduate, decades ago, I worked in philosophy of science. I found in ancient Hindu thought much of the ideas now popular in physics as Quantum theory. There are fundamental problems with modern science which is still trying to jury rig ways to fit advanced experimental data into fundamental theory from Newton's day and earlier. One of the interesting insights is that our physics is all based upon images of electromagnetic radiation (light waves of various frequencies) and experiment indicates that solid matter can be considered light tied up in little knots (electrons, protons). Whether these are actually what makes up external reality or just what it is that we can perceive is generally considered beyond the realm of science. If a tree falls in a forrest is makes no "sound" since the scientific definition of "sound" involves acoustic energy which is perceived by humans or their instruments. Only what is perceived and recorded is the realm of science. Once the discussion moves from what is the fundamental nature of matter, reality or the Universe to what are humans able to perceive, then all cultures have an equal shot at the descriptions and insights. Eastern thought has focused more upon what can the human mind experience while Western science prefers to skip that part and focus upon the images produced which can be published for others to see. In terms of relating yang and yin to the forces of physics one way to begin would be to relate yang to what is seen as being in control and yin to what is the context which allows that perception to focus. Frank ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 11:30:25 EDT From: FKegan@aol.com Subject: HEX8: Re: philosophical words and ancient thoughts Greetings Lothar, Yes, Solomon Ben Judah Ibn Gabirol was known in medieval Europe through the Latin translation of his name (and his philosophical work, Fons Vitae) as Avicebron who was generally thought to be Muslim or Christian since he did not cite Torah or other Jewish scripture. It was a work of late 19th century scholarship to figure out that Avicebron was the Spanish translator's name for Ibn Gabirol. It is also certain that the academic experts consider him NeoPlatonist since he argues for many pages about everything being composed of material and form. Personally, I believe a better explanation is to be found through the work of Piaget. In medieval logic concepts as mental images abstracted from experience was beyond their epistemology. A concept was a concrete thing composed of "rational material" or of the stuff the mind is built with completely analogous to a sculpture done in clay. The notion that all objects were made of basically the same thing with minor variations causing the clear differences, that is our modern molecular notion of matter all made of protons, neutrons and electrons, was clearly beyond empirical verification at that time. It was not beyond imaginative experience. I knew a friend who figured out from the action of waves in the water in her bathtub at age 5 that water must be composed of tiny particles stuck together. There is a supposition that it is only our massive equipment that allows understanding of physics; however, the observations required are available without any such equipment. Bits of leaves floating upon water will show that there is an internal commotion going on, which the British (and Soviets) have named for their first scientist to publish about it, Brownian motion in English texts. Given that an object and the drawing of an object or a person and a sculpture of a person, look very much the same shows that form is a general property independent of the material which is shaped to that form. To generalize that form and material are common components of all perceived things in the Piaget epistemology of concrete operations and objects of the ancient world and early middle ages took a vast set of detailed, concrete arguments. I believe that is what Ibn Gabirol is doing in Fons Vitae. Since Piaget's work is 20th century and most of the Ibn Gabirol scholarship is established by the late 19th century, the assumption he was a NeoPlatonist was mostly a matter of assumptions that all texts had to fit into the categories already known and established. This becomes even more of an issue in the case of the concepts of yang and yin. The Chinese ideograms in Weiger, S. J. have a clear etymology from a pennant fluttering in the sun and the dark of a valley. In today's terms that is figure and ground of gestalt. It was the European translators and Sinologists who had the limited vocabulary and philosophical terminology who coming upon the concepts called Gestalt in the last 10 or 12 decades assumed the Chinese had to be behind them rather than realizing they were millennia ahead of them. A family friend, Prof. Francis Hsu, who was Chairman of the Dept. of Anthropology at Northwestern University for many years (now deceased, author of Chinese and Americans, also Clan, Caste and Club) used to ridicule the notion that language or vocabulary were prerequisite to understanding concepts. Rather he noted, when a new concept required expression, a word would be created or absorbed from some other context or language and adapted to the precise use at hand. The Chinese were well aware of the mental representation of perceptions and imagination and the insights to be achieved through meditation. It is the correlation of these mental experiences with the events perceived to be external, objective reality which is the realm of philosophy. Since Western philosophy has yet to come to grips with meditation and the nature of our personal mental machinery controlling how we experience external reality, all discussion of philosophy should begin with the realization that it is Western thought which is hamstrung from a lack of fundamental understanding, vocabulary or rigorous experience. The issues then quickly focus in terms of how one sees or respects other cultures and how well one can accept the notion that the material being studied involves superior science and understanding which is to be learned from better than being projected into the most convenient lower form in terms of what one expects to find in your own culture. It is an interesting philosophical exercise to consider how one would perceive if a text refers to new ideas to be learned rather than being whatever seems the old ideas which can be imposed upon it. In Western terms, seek and ye shall find. If you are open to finding advanced concepts, they can be found and shown to be the result of development in that culture. If you seek only to see what fraction of your knowledge "they" achieved yet, that is also what you will find. Greetings, Frank ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 18:34:06 -0500 From: Charlie Higgins Subject: HEX8: [Fwd: Questions on the I Ching] This is a multi-part message in MIME format. - --------------478854494BFE Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I received this email from a girl (high school or college class, I don't know) who is writing a research paper on the Yi. It would certainly be helpful to her if those of you who have the time to answer her questions (even partially) would do so. Charlie Higgins - --------------478854494BFE Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Received: from cupcake.seagull.net (mail@[216.163.78.129]) by mail1.crcom.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA13664 for ; Tue, 11 Apr 2000 16:37:07 -0500 (CDT) Received: (mail@localhost) by cupcake.seagull.net (8.9.3) id OAA28735 sender ama@innocent.com for chh; Tue, 11 Apr 2000 14:35:46 -0700 Received: from rmx06.iname.net (rmx06.iname.net [165.251.8.205]) by cupcake.seagull.net (8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA28727 sender ama@innocent.com for ; Tue, 11 Apr 2000 14:35:46 -0700 Received: from weba3.iname.net by rmx06.iname.net (8.9.1/8.8.0) with ESMTP id RAA05809 Received: (from root@localhost) by weba3.iname.net (8.9.1a/8.9.2.Alpha2) id RAA11758; Tue, 11 Apr 2000 17:31:53 -0400 (EDT) From: ama@innocent.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <000411173153FT.13151@weba3.iname.net> Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 17:31:53 -0400 (EDT) X-Mailer-Version: 20000329 X-Recipient: chh@mension.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: chh@mension.com Cc: ddiamond@ozemail.com.au Subject: Questions on the I Ching Content-Type: Text/Plain Hello, my name is Amanda Maestro-Scherer. I am writing a research paper on the I Ching. I visited your website, and I was wondering if you would be willing to answer several questions on the I Ching for me. If you could, it would help me tremendously. 1. Why exactly does the I Ching work? (if this question can be answered) 2. Why has it survived for thousands of years? 3. Who in China still uses the I Ching as a source of guidance? 4. What proof is there that the I Ching is more accurate than chance? 5. Have you used the I Ching? What do you think of the accuracy of the readings in providing you guidance to your questions? 6. Do you personally know of others who use the I Ching on a regular basis? What do they think of the accuracy? 7. What are the importance historical points about the I Ching? 8. Do you think that the I Ching will begin to be used by more people as a source of guidance? 9. Are there ways of proving the I Ching's validity? 10. What do you think the best source of information on the I Ching is? Thank you very much for your time. If you could reply to this email it would be very, very helpful for my paper. Thanks again! Amanda Maestro-Scherer - --------------------------------------------------- Get free personalized email at http://www.iname.com - --------------478854494BFE-- ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 19:08:48 -0500 From: Charlie Higgins Subject: Re: HEX8: [Fwd: Questions on the I Ching] In regards to the girl's question, it would be stimulating if those who do anser would cc their remarks to Hex8. Charlie ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2000 12:20:42 EDT From: FKegan@aol.com Subject: HEX8: Re: Research paper on I Ching Charlie, I am unable to decipher the original sender's Email beyond "cupcake.seagull.net" which doesn't quite seem a regular Internet address. Please forward this reply back to her for me. Thanks. Dear Amanda Maestro-Scherer. A partial answer to your questions: 1. The I Ching "works" exactly because people who ask questions of the Oracle experience the response they receive as answering their questions and explaining the process of why that question was important to them. 2. It has survived thousands of years for 2 reasons: a) It is one of the 5 Confucian Classics b) its perspective continues to be useful and relevant to those who consult it. 3. I don't know who in China uses it. However it is still used by some, as well as some in Taiwan, Hong Kong and throughout the world including the US. 4. The more exact question is how would you prove Chance exists. The physicist P. W. Bridgman came up with a science perspective called "operationalism" by which theory was replaced by the description of the actions or operations performed. Operationally, you can only demonstrate if some particular order was used or a particular formula can explain the next result in a series. Beyond that, if results are called "Chance" or "Supernatural guidance" is a matter of personal belief or opinion only. Statistical analysis can only show if one group of results differs in their average result from another. If everything is ordered by the Cosmos their could be no demonstrated difference. Again, it is finding the Chance sample control group which is the limitation to the research. 5. I use the oracle of the I Ching, I find that it "works" to supply understanding that I need, which is different from answering all questions as I expect or might wish. Others I know who use it have similar results. Those who continue to use the oracle of the I Ching find personal subjective validation of the results. 7. The traditional historical points of the I Ching are the development of hexagrams as a system of binary counters in a sine-wave pattern 2200 BC The current sequence and oracle text about 1100 BC the modern commentary on the text with Confucius 600 BC and the official Imperial edition of the commentaries AD 1716. There are far more precise records of what details were used in texts or objects found in archeological sites. Interpretation of the materials depends mostly upon whether it is conceivable for another culture to have discovered millennia ago things ours came to in the last century or two. 8. The American interest in the I Ching varies over time. At some point in the future it will definitely be used by more folks, at least for a while. Personally, I have great hope that in another 900 years or so Western Science will catch up with the mathematics of the I Ching. 9. Proving validity is always a difficult experimental question. The simplest method for a classroom research paper such as yours would be to have a group of students in class all think of their own individual questions and at the same time cast the oracle, each one of them, by whatever method you choose for your experiment (tossing coins will certainly be simplest for the experiment). Then you can record what oracle each student received and do your statistical study of the pattern of that result. The experiment would be completed by having each student read a text, such as The Wilhelm/Baynes translation of I Ching or Book of Changes (Bolligen Press) for their oracle and write their sense of what that oracle meant and how it seemed to them to answer their question. Devising a questionnaire about how it felt to each of them as a specific answer to their individual question, you could use the answers on that questionnaire as data for statistical analysis of validity. 10. The Wilhelm/Baynes text mentioned above is the standard academic source. Beyond that your personal experience using the Oracle would be, your best source. Other than that any library search or search of Amazon.com for "Book of Changes" or "I Ching" will return sufficient reference material to sort through. I hope these partial answers are helpful in your research, and that they are able to wend their way back through the Internet connections to you. Sincerely, Frank R. Kegan ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2000 18:03:04 -0500 From: omei shan Subject: HEX8: I'm Ba-ack! Hi, everybody! Guess who's back from West Texas! All I can say about the place is: "WOW!" The area is beautiful, beautiful, beautiful! We did Big Bend (The Chiso Basin is awesome), saw the Marfa lights two nights in a row, toured Ft. Davis, stayed at Indian Lodge, visited the McDonald Observatory (twice), and generally had a *wonderful* time! I'm ready to go back and stay a couple of weeks! I wish someone had warned me about 170 between Lajitas and Presidio - The scenery was beyond words, but those hills scared me - 15 degree grades - can you imagine! (Guess who got to drive!) Sorry I missed a couple of the emails, but I logged off as soon as I said I was going. This is the first chance I've had to read my emails (273 down, 148 to go!). Monica ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2000 06:09:09 -0500 From: Charlie Higgins Subject: Re: HEX8: [Fwd: Questions on the I Ching] Done... >> Charlie, I am unable to decipher the original sender's Email beyond "cupcake.seagull.net" which doesn't quite seem a regular Internet address. Please forward this reply back to her for me. Thanks.<< ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2000 11:01:40 EDT From: Autorbis@aol.com Subject: Re: HEX8: [Fwd: Questions on the I Ching] Some answers: << 1. Why exactly does the I Ching work? (if this question can be answered) ## There are some people, who "believe", that it works, and others, who "believe", that it doesn't work. Most people doesn't care about the whole problem. Only those people, who "believe", that it works, have eventually a theory, why it works. In any case, it's only a "believed" theory. I "believe", that any sort of divination "can" work. The result is always rather subjective as any result of communication with somebody or something. You "believe", that you've understood something when communicating. This understanding you see as a result, but there's mostly nobody, who can judge, if your understanding is "correct" or "incorrect". In human communication there are lot of examples, when communication seems to work. I say: "Give the hammer to me" and from your following action (in the case, that I really do get a hammer from you) I experience, that the world is a nice place, that "works". But occasionally I doesn't get the hammer, and I experience, that you misunderstood my demand. "Give the hammer to me" is a rather easy sentence, and in the case, that a hammer is nearby und you are aware, that I have some use for a hammer, I've a rather good chance, that you realize, what's going on, and I do get the hammer. But there are more complex sentences, and the more complex my communicated idea is, the greater becomes the probability, that I'm not understood. In the case, that I do communicate with a TV, I'm more or less receptive. Mostly I do think, that I understand, what is going on there, but there is nobody outside, who gives me any additional information, if I got the given context correctly. Well, the only action I can do, is to switch the channell or to stop the machine, and to hope, that the TV is in order and "understands" that. Generally an action of divination is rather complex. How to realize, if the action was successful or not? How to verify it in a sort of statistic? I do hope, that I do understand something .... but that's only hope. It's just an inner process like thinking, dreaming, remembering, assuming, etc. ... Nobody tells me anything about "true understanding" in this matter. Just my own feeling dictates my own confidence in that. I do declare: "I can divinate ...", there is no other base than this self-statement ... Then "it works". And then I look at the nightly heaven with all this many stars and beautiful worlds and meditate the long passing of all time, and laugh about myself and my own silly arrogance ... :-) What a funny game it is :-) ## 2. Why has it survived for thousands of years? ### It was probably from its beginning a rather important text. Important texts have a good chance to survive the changing times. Those texts, which didn't survive, we don't know :-)### 3. Who in China still uses the I Ching as a source of guidance? 4. What proof is there that the I Ching is more accurate than chance? ### There is only subjective evidence. ## 5. Have you used the I Ching? What do you think of the accuracy of the readings in providing you guidance to your questions? ### Yes, I've done the I-Ching. The results are subjective. ## 6. Do you personally know of others who use the I Ching on a regular basis? What do they think of the accuracy? ### Yes, I do know others. Their opinions are different, as usually. ### 7. What are the importance historical points about the I Ching? ### There are many. The stuff is more than 3000 years old, naturally there are a lot of historical stories around it. I think, that the most important point is, that there were similar uses of similar mathematical structures inside philosophies, divination technics, mythologies, religious ideas etc. in the past allover the world outside of China. And I think, the really striking point is, that this is not understood until nowadays. ### 8. Do you think that the I Ching will begin to be used by more people as a source of guidance? ### No, I do think, it has had its climax. Once, in the 70ies, it was new to a lot of people. The curiosity about it has gone. Perhaps it's getting another renaissance in later times.### 9. Are there ways of proving the I Ching's validity? ### Try it :-) ### 10. What do you think the best source of information on the I Ching is? ### Probably it's good to start with the Wilhelm/Baynes translation, as this is the book, that most people have read. Then you read something and there are others, who've read the same book and you've something to talk about with them. But my personal answer to this question is: "Life is the best source of information on I-Ching". ### Lothar ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ End of hexagram-8-digest V1 #173 ********************************