From owner-hexagram-8-digest@apocalypse.org Tue May 2 06:20:51 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id GAA29994 for hexagram-8-digest-outgoing; Tue, 2 May 2000 06:20:51 -0400 Date: Tue, 2 May 2000 06:20:51 -0400 Message-Id: <200005021020.GAA29994@apocalypse.org> X-Authentication-Warning: apocalypse.org: majordom set sender to owner-hexagram-8-digest@apocalypse.org using -f From: owner-hexagram-8-digest@apocalypse.org (hexagram-8-digest) To: hexagram-8-digest@apocalypse.org Subject: hexagram-8-digest V1 #174 Reply-To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Sender: owner-hexagram-8-digest@apocalypse.org Errors-To: owner-hexagram-8-digest@apocalypse.org Precedence: bulk hexagram-8-digest Tuesday, May 2 2000 Volume 01 : Number 174 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2000 14:29:37 +0400 From: "Nakashidze" Subject: HEX8: Questions on the I Ching Dear Amanta Maestro-Scherer Here are some answers: 1. C.G. Jung thought about this question for a long time, he hypothesised a parallelism in psychical state of a man and physical world, that is displayed in sinchronous flow of events. He devoted a special book to this question “Synchronicity”. 2. There is an information, that three “I” were in various dinasties, long before the usual “Chou I”, we all use now: “Lian Shan” in the semi-mythological dinasty Xia (about 30 century BCE) and “Gui Zan” in Shang-Yin (18 –11 c. c. BCE) and they were lost. 3. For centuries a professional divinator was very usual for market places in all towns and villages in China. It is interesting, that the book, that had been escaped ”Chin fire” in –213 BCE, was prohibited after the revolution of 1949. Ten years later the prohibition had been cancelled for 1-2 years, but then was introduced again and so strict, that many “ichingists” have been subjected to repression in the years of “cultural revolution”. It has been rehabilitated only in 80-ies. I know (not personally) one physicist Wang Hongqi, who has published a book (in Chinese) about “I Ching” and also patented playing cards with its theme, very interesting. An international center for I Ching works now works in the province Shandong (Confucius’s homeland), city Jinan. 4. Chance or probability are out of the question. 5. Yes, I used “I Ching” and it often was a great help for me and my friends. The most striking is not a sense meaning of divinations (a man can find common sense between very different things and tie very different events:-)), but a litteral coincidence of divination’s result and the existing or future situation: for example a week before an operation of appendix one girl obtained a situation with words “biting into meat” (in Russian translation: “extract a peritoneum” !). 6. 7. 8. Yes, I think, that I Ching will begin to be used by more people not only in everyday life, but also in science, as a basis of forming new scientific paradigm. It will be two-sided process: use of I Ching will help to understand it more. 9. Use it, when You have serious question, but look at it with unprejudiced, wider view, not as on scientific matter, with statistics, reproducibility of events etc. 10. The best information about “I Ching” is it itself, none commentary may be compared with it. Try to read as many translations as You can, in various languages. In sum they may create an impression about “I Ching”. Best wishes Timur ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 11:34:10 +0200 From: Dautun Subject: Re: HEX8: [Fwd: Questions on the I Ching] Here's my bunch of answers to the questions of Amanda Maestro-Scherer, as transmitted by Charlie Higgins. 1. Why exactly does the I Ching work? (if this question can be answered) Because it is an invention /discovery of the human consciousness about oneself, so that, when somebody makes it work, he sees in action when it works the most inner processes,and highest level of his own consciousness. 2. Why has it survived for thousands of years? Because the deepst and highets level of human consciousness is at once what makes humanity run and whant is still a total mystery. So that many feel that The Yi must be protected like a precious part of man himself, as long as it keeps unknown, though it remains unknown, and because it remains unknown and must be cleared out one day. 3. Who in China still uses the I Ching as a source of guidance? A lot, I hope for them. That is no important quesrtion to me. 4. What proof is there that the I Ching is more accurate than chance? No one, no more than anybody will be able to proof that what Rembrandt has painted is an accurate description of reality. Too bad if an art needs proofs (too bad for those who need proofs, i mean). Art has never any. 5. Have you used the I Ching? What do you think of the accuracy of the readings in providing you guidance to your questions? I use it everyday since 22 years by now. I Think that yis accuracy is the same that the one of a compass for a lonesome traveller. 6. Do you personally know of others who use the I Ching on a regular basis? What do they think of the accuracy? Yes I do. Some of them think like me, these are the ones I share with. The others, I listen to what they have to say, but I dont try no more to argue. Youthfull folly. 7. What are the importance historical points about the I Ching? To me : 1 : the period where in ancient China, the Yi was an emperors tool. Just to be reminded and used comparatively with today. 2 : the moment when it came to West, which is as much ilmportant than the moment when compass came to West (beginning of great travels). 3 : the intemporal fact that, in any time of history, for the Yi history matters less than the instant present. 8. Do you think that the I Ching will begin to be used by more people as a source of guidance? Certainly, as anything else : cars, polls, Beatles records covers, web, etc. It doesnt matter at all. 9. Are there ways of proving the I Ching's validity? No. 10. What do you think the best source of information on the I Ching is? Any translation of the text, and a daily practice. In a nutshell, one self. The rest is litterature. Regards to all, Jp ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2000 19:22:12 +0200 From: "Frank Coolen" Subject: HEX8: Re: Questions on the I Ching - -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- Van: ama@innocent.com Aan: chh@mension.com CC: ddiamond@ozemail.com.au Datum: dinsdag 11 april 2000 23:37 Onderwerp: Questions on the I Ching >Hello, my name is Amanda Maestro-Scherer. I am writing a research paper on the I Ching. I visited your website, and I was wondering if you would be willing to answer several questions on the I Ching for me. If you could, it would help me tremendously. > >1. Why exactly does the I Ching work? (if this question can be answered) Well that's what I call a philosophical question :-D For me I think the "why" is not that easy answered. Does it work, because it brings us to our inner consious...? Does it work because there is something between heaven and earth...? I think at least one of the reasons why the I Ching works is because somehow it gives us the oppurtinity to look at things from a different point of view. There is probably a "basic" knowledge, collected in the I Ching that can fill in all the questions you have in life. Maybe a "universal language"...? Just as we know "red" is a sign for stopping and love, the words used in the I Ching, or the symbols used inthere are the basis for every answer you could imagine. The man and women who created the I Ching are realy genius! >2. Why has it survived for thousands of years? Because it works! Simple :-D Why don't the americans no longer use the 8-track that much...? Because it did not work...:-D >3. Who in China still uses the I Ching as a source of guidance? Mao did, maybe Jiang Zemin does it too... There are groups of philosophers who still uses the I Ching, or discuss it. Frequently, especially in Hong Kong, Taiwan and Singapore (sometimes Malaysia) I Ching books are published, as in the West... We had a "Yi-Boom" in the middle 90's... Here in the Netherlands every month came a new I Ching book. That has been replaced by Feng Shui these days, although it looks like that has had it's best times too. But there will be another Chinese thing for replacement, I trust... >4. What proof is there that the I Ching is more accurate than chance? By Chance you want to know how much something is happening. The I Ching tells you what happens, and sometimes when. That's a difference. Even when you desite to use the I Ching as a phylosophical tool, the "what and when" could give you a start to go for something, unconsiously. Chance only gives numbers, and does not ring a bell what so ever... When you start something it is always closer to a accuracy, then just plain numbering, don't you think? >5. Have you used the I Ching? What do you think of the accuracy of the readings in providing you guidance to your questions? I used, and still use, the I Ching extensifly. The accuracy is amazing. Even when I disite not to follow up what it says to me, a few weeks later, when I read the answer, I'm amazed I did exacty, or something happened exactly as the I Ching told me... Just by looking out a window, and thinking on a hexagram of the I Ching, I can make a train stop (realy happened: 12 Stand Still!):-D >6. Do you personally know of others who use the I Ching on a regular basis? What do they think of the accuracy? I know there are some people in the Netherlands using it, mosty alone. I'm one of the initiators to try to get a group out of it, was a member of the editing cast of two I Ching magazines, but people probably want to live on islands, and in private as you do not hear much of them. There are a lot of other people around Europe, or the world who use the I Ching, more then you know... and there are also a lot of sites on the Internet about the subject, and at least 3 or 4 mailinglists. These answers are, besides to you, also to one of these lists (read the CC...) I told you already about the accuracy :-D... >7. What are the importance historical points about the I Ching? Acording to legend: 2852 - 2738 BC Fu Xi invents the Trigrams (parts of the symbols of the IChing) 1122 BC - King Wen writes, while in prisonment, the Judgements to the Hexagrams of the I Ching - Around the same time, his fourth son Tan, duke of Chou, writes the line-texts Acording to fact: +/- 1200 BC - On "tortoise oracle bones" sighns that looks like trigrams are shown. Comments on the sighns are written down in what seems to look like the very first froms of Chinese writing. 671 BC - The, untill these days, oldest recording of an I Ching consultation, mentioned in the Zuo Zhuan, the Zuo commentary. +/- 285 BC - Zou Yan forms the yin / yang polarity and five elements-school, atributes that became an important part of the using of the I Ching later in time. +/- 200 BC - Tian He and his disciples are writing the most famous commentary on the I Ching: the "Ten Wings". It's is not shure if they wrote them all, but probably more correct they only wrote the first of the ten wings, who are to believed to me made, these days, but that can change, between 250 BC and 100 AD +/- 100 BC - Meng Xi connects I Ching to Chinese solar calendar. His disciple Jiao Yanshou, uses the concept to make the "Forest of Change", the "Yilin" +/- 50 BC - Jing Fang, disciple of Jiao Yanshou, invents the "Eight Houses" of the I Ching. 247 AD - Wang Bi writes comment on I Ching. Standard till the middle ages +/- 700 - Yi Xing writes the "Gua Yi", "meaning of the hexagrams", and he expands Meng Xi's work by extracting smaller periods inside the connection of the I Ching and the Chinese solar calendar 1062 / 71 - Shao Yung writes his "World Ordering Principle", based (a.o.) on the works of Meng Xi +/- 1075 - Cheng Yi writes "Tao of Organisation" (translated by Thomas Cleary in 1988) +/- 1175 - Chu Xi becomes one of the greatest philosophers on the I Ching by writing comments on it, clearing again (Wang Bi was the first one) all the "rubish" from the Main sources of the I Ching. His views of dealing with the I Ching, from trowing of the coins, using the millfoil, till how to read and use the I Ching, are still used today. 18 October 1697 - Bouvet writes to Leibnitz about the I Ching. First apearance of the Yi in the West! 1876 - Canon McClatchie publishes first major translation of the I Ching in English. 1924 - Richard Wilhelm writes the first translation in German, which is translated in 19?? by Cary Baynes into English. It's THEY standard I Ching up to now still, even when there are better I Ching translations, or lay-outs... 2000 - You start to ask questions about the I Ching and I respond :-D >8. Do you think that the I Ching will begin to be used by more people as a source of guidance? I surely hope so...:-D But the edge between the regular people (work, career, car, house, kids, social life, free time, money, money, money, they just want it all...) and the alternatives (a smaller house, part time jobs, health and care instead of career and money, go by train, bus and bycicle... Freedom, sometimes NO kids...) is growing larger... Maybe we need it more, but it depends on which group will be the market leader in the 21st century... >9. Are there ways of proving the I Ching's validity? As long as you have confidence in yourself, why shouldn't you have it in the I Ching, as YOU are the one using it...? >10. What do you think the best source of information on the I Ching is? - - Richard Wilhelm - "I Ching" for the original translation in english (by Cary Baynes, Wilhelm is a german) - - Richard Lynn - "Classic of Changes" for another English translation, by an american proffesor - - Edward Hacker - "I Ching Handbook" for background information, and probably easier to get in the states then another book... - - William de Fancourt - "Warp and Weft" for the historical view (facts) >Thank you very much for your time. If you could reply to this email it would be very, very helpful for my paper. Thanks again! You're welcome. On behalve of all of us, I think :-D, I would like to thank you for these questions. Made me wander... Frank Coolen (Frank I :-D?) ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2000 07:49:31 -0700 From: danu@monitor.net Subject: HEX8: Timely New WebPage: 15 Stations Of The Cross Hi all, The excerpted description below is taken from my latest WebPage: http://www.CritPath.org/~strucky/danu/15Stations.html This is a remarkable example of hitherto unrevealed exact correspondence between a strict geometrical progression of structural transformations and a traditional account of religious metaphor for spritual transformation. The traditional planetary and mythological names and meanings from both West (Astrology) and East (I Ching Hexagrams), as well as the Northern alchemical Body Chakras, are also closely correlated and referenced in the Bold-face descriptions of each of the 15 Stations. Please note this is NOT just a seeking of the best selection from the complete list of each of the various traditions and finding the best fit to each of the 15 Stations; it is a precise correspondence of one strict and exact mathematical sequence (based upon the Jitterbug Transformation of Duals) with the other series of dramatic incidents (from scriptural accounts), as discovered inevitably by a simple application of the Syntopian ChromArcheTet of Synergetic Topology. May you Feast your I's And Feed your Head, SeaSON'S greetings, - --danu ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2000 14:37:35 EDT From: FKegan@aol.com Subject: HEX8: Re: Geodesic universals Hi all, Seems a bit quiet on Hex-8. The recent post copied here of "exact correspondence" between the Platonic solids as rendered in a Bucky Fuller perspective and one interpretation of the 15 stations of the cross reflects a long tradition of finding in the set of solid figures of increasing sides the structural secret to whatever one might be seeking. I suspect this ultimately rests upon that series tending toward a general integral function. The only part of his website which seems intelligible to those not in his cult, was his remark about the various sequences of hexagrams in traditional I Ching diagrams as being "even more random" than... He seems totally content to use only the most ancient Yi notions, that of the trigrams as binary counters and then continues his work with the numbers 0-15. Not quite as sophisticated as the Chinese patterns before the King Wen sequence, but getting there. Frank ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2000 09:42:10 EDT From: Autorbis@aol.com Subject: HEX8: Chinese language Hi Frank, sorry, I'm busy, so my answer is a little late. << Greetings Lothar, Yes, Solomon Ben Judah Ibn Gabirol was known in medieval Europe through the Latin translation of his name (and his philosophical work, Fons Vitae) as Avicebron who was generally thought to be Muslim or Christian since he did not cite Torah or other Jewish scripture. It was a work of late 19th century scholarship to figure out that Avicebron was the Spanish translator's name for Ibn Gabirol. It is also certain that the academic experts consider him NeoPlatonist since he argues for many pages about everything being composed of material and form. Personally, I believe a better explanation is to be found through the work of Piaget. In medieval logic concepts as mental images abstracted from experience was beyond their epistemology. A concept was a concrete thing composed of "rational material" or of the stuff the mind is built with completely analogous to a sculpture done in clay. The notion that all objects were made of basically the same thing with minor variations causing the clear differences, that is our modern molecular notion of matter all made of protons, neutrons and electrons, was clearly beyond empirical verification at that time. It was not beyond imaginative experience. I knew a friend who figured out from the action of waves in the water in her bathtub at age 5 that water must be composed of tiny particles stuck together. There is a supposition that it is only our massive equipment that allows understanding of physics; however, the observations required are available without any such equipment. Bits of leaves floating upon water will show that there is an internal commotion going on, which the British (and Soviets) have named for their first scientist to publish about it, Brownian motion in English texts. Given that an object and the drawing of an object or a person and a sculpture of a person, look very much the same shows that form is a general property independent of the material which is shaped to that form. To generalize that form and material are common components of all perceived things in the Piaget epistemology of concrete operations and objects of the ancient world and early middle ages took a vast set of detailed, concrete arguments. I believe that is what Ibn Gabirol is doing in Fons Vitae. Since Piaget's work is 20th century and most of the Ibn Gabirol scholarship is established by the late 19th century, the assumption he was a NeoPlatonist was mostly a matter of assumptions that all texts had to fit into the categories already known and established. ### Perhaps one should translate "Neo-Platonism" with "new idealistic ideas after the idealism of Plato". One Neo-Platonists is not like the other, anybody had and created his own "idealistic" world-view. I do see the philosophic category of "Neoplatonism" as a "wide" category. Mostly Neoplatonists like to explain, why the world is as it is, mostly they like to establish a mathematical system in their explanation and mostly they do belong to a special time and mostly they were active near to the European countries. Probably it's best to define them by that, what they are not. They are not materialists, they are not addicted to Aristototeles, they are not addicted to the idea, that one can explore the world with microscope and telescope. ### This becomes even more of an issue in the case of the concepts of yang and yin. The Chinese ideograms in Weiger, S. J. have a clear etymology from a pennant fluttering in the sun and the dark of a valley. In today's terms that is figure and ground of gestalt. It was the European translators and Sinologists who had the limited vocabulary and philosophical terminology who coming upon the concepts called Gestalt in the last 10 or 12 decades assumed the Chinese had to be behind them rather than realizing they were millennia ahead of them. A family friend, Prof. Francis Hsu, who was Chairman of the Dept. of Anthropology at Northwestern University for many years (now deceased, author of Chinese and Americans, also Clan, Caste and Club) used to ridicule the notion that language or vocabulary were prerequisite to understanding concepts. Rather he noted, when a new concept required expression, a word would be created or absorbed from some other context or language and adapted to the precise use at hand. The Chinese were well aware of the mental representation of perceptions and imagination and the insights to be achieved through meditation. It is the correlation of these mental experiences with the events perceived to be external, objective reality which is the realm of philosophy. Since Western philosophy has yet to come to grips with meditation and the nature of our personal mental machinery controlling how we experience external reality, all discussion of philosophy should begin with the realization that it is Western thought which is hamstrung from a lack of fundamental understanding, vocabulary or rigorous experience. The issues then quickly focus in terms of how one sees or respects other cultures and how well one can accept the notion that the material being studied involves superior science and understanding which is to be learned from better than being projected into the most convenient lower form in terms of what one expects to find in your own culture. It is an interesting philosophical exercise to consider how one would perceive if a text refers to new ideas to be learned rather than being whatever seems the old ideas which can be imposed upon it. In Western terms, seek and ye shall find. If you are open to finding advanced concepts, they can be found and shown to be the result of development in that culture. If you seek only to see what fraction of your knowledge "they" achieved yet, that is also what you will find. ### I think, that in the history of the Western world we've a great variety of different persons. There were mystics, there were preachers, there were eremits, there were popes, there were kings, there were generals, there were heroes, there were scientists, there were philosophs and there were people, who did invent the Jumbo-Jet etc.. Mostly the mystics were not heroes, the inventor of Jumbo-Jets were mostly not generals, kings were not scientists etc.. This same great variety I assume for the people in China. A lot of different talents. Some did like meditation, some did like to gain power, some made interesting resarches, some studied astronomy, some did like business, some prefered the life as a farmer, some were slaves, etc. A lot of differences between all these peoples in China. And the Chinese business-men were not the people used to meditation, the astronoms didn't live as farmers, and the slaves were not people with power. Because of this reason generalisations as "Western thought" or "Chinese thought" doesn't really describe reality, they are just a try to explore differences between these different regions of the world. Did the Chinese have more mystics in history than the Western people? I don't believe that. Did the Chinese have less inventors in history? No. They did invent the compass, gunpowder and a lot of other things. Did they have less farmers or slaves? I don't know, but I don't believe it. Did they have less kings, less heroes, less astronoms, less mathematicans, less .... No.No. No. Perhaps less heroes, as they had not the ideal political structure to build them. Did they invent the Jumbo-Jet? No. That's a real difference. Why was it possible to Western thought to invent the Jumbo-Jet? Why was it not possible for the Chinese thought? Cause there were an explosion of knowledge for Western thinking in history, which didn't take place in China. In most time of history Chinese thinking was superior to Western thinking, mostly they did invent things earlier than in the Western world. The reason for this probably was, that the geography of China was ideal to build and to beware one great Empire, whereas the geography of European countries was good to build a lot of comparative small independant states with different forms of government. Although China had also its historical periodes, in which it was parted in various smaller kingdoms, the time of the great Empires is much longer than the few centuries of the comparable Roman Empire. If we would imagine, what had happened to Europe, if the Roman Empire didn't break down at its time, the difference between the real development and the result of the imagination would be a great one. China had the better conditions, very simply, so their earlier higher advancement in various cultural fields is logical. China developed the printing press perhaps 1000 years before the Europeans did the same. But the Chinese couldn't use it very well, as their system of writing didn't fit with the new possibilites. So the possible "explosion of knowledge" in China didn't take place. The Europeans 1000 years later had an alphabet, which was ideal to be used together with the printing technic. They produced books, the books produced readers and the readers became persons with some knowledge. The final result of this many people with knowledge was the Jumbo-Jet, which wasn't invented in China (beside very much other "final results"). I've read in a book about the development of scripture, that Japanese pupils often already know the basics signs of their various writing systems, occasionally even also the Western alphabet, BEFORE they enter school. Then it takes them years to learn that 1800 chinese signs, which they do need for their final graduation. Necessarily they develop on this way a good sense of differentiation, a good memory intelligence etc., a lot of good, worthful operations take place in their heads. Eventually comparable to the results of the Western try to keep languages like old Greek and Latin alive in school. "Latin is good for thinking" is always an argument in the discussion, if Latin is of any greater worth in a modern society. But it takes a long time and a lot of energy for Japanese pupils to achieve the "key" to their culture, that they could read all written text in their language. Eventually this energy, which is used for this operation, is missing at another place. In Europe: In the time, when you learn Latin, you could learn something else. Japanese aren't stupid, everybody knows that. But they have very special social, geographical and cultural conditions (which are in no way identical with that of the people in China). The luck of Japan was their islands. Their historical role in East Asia was similar to that of the British Islands in Europe. Or to that of Creta 4000 years ago. As long as special technologies ruled the world, an island was ideal to defend the country against foreign influence and power. They don't need to spend to much energy for that effect. And in periodes, when the technology of ships is the deciding point in historical developments, such countries have their great time, as they do know about ships, naturally. The Minoish people were great until the other learned to build ships also. The British ruled the world in 18/19th century. The Waterloo decision could probably seen as the mark, when the leading French opposition was broken down. The Japanese became the leading country in East Asia in 20th century. They overruled the former leader, China. Historically they are a little later, as the cultural development in this region is (was) also later. The British Empire has broken, the Japanese .... nobody knows. Anyway, that's not the theme here. It's just an example, how technologies do work. China couldn't use the printing press ... because of their writing system. In times, when a new technology is available, it seems to be of great importance, if a culture can deal with the technology - or not. The writing system - beside the natural geographical conditions - is - in my humble opinion the crucial point in Chinese historical development. Chinese sages and mystics didn't have the great influence, that some do like to see in them in Western nostalgic thinking. Western worlds also had their important "sages" and "mystics" and philosophs. What about Jesus for instance? What about Pythagoras? What about Plato? What about Kant? What about all the holy men in the catholic church? How does a Chinese perceive our "holy men", which we learned to see as "normal persons" in a centuries-lasting struggle against earlier idealisations? Naturally, as you said it above in other words, the Western perception of East Asian cultures is naive and a little blue-eyed. Surely there are a lot of special social and communicative Chinese mysteries, which are nearly impossible to explore from the Western outside. Probably the exploration will take centuries .... So the current opinions about Chinese culture will present the whole scale from from under-estimation till over-estimation. But also - in a very natural way - the East Asian perception of the Western world is similar naive and similar blue-eyed. The original question in our discussion was not about general preoccupations and misunderstandings between Chinese and Western people, but if the Chinese scripture system can present the same sort of differentiation possibilities as an alphabetical scripture system or as all Western alphabetical scripture systems together. I doubt that. 1. A special feature of Chinese writing seems to be, that the same written sentence is interpretable in more different contexts than a compared alphabetical sentence in an European language. The intelligence of a reader to explore the "real meaning" in the mind of the producer of a sentence needs more context-knowledge than it is necessary in an European language. This special feature leads to the fact, that probably 50 different translators of the Tao-te-King come probably to 50 different readings of the text. 2. The function of the Chinese scripture is also, that it is a sort of international tool in East Asia. The different signs are used similar in the different countries, but the people in different regions speak them different. Naturally this leads to a simplification .... perhaps in the same way, how the original Latin terms had simplified the European languages in the past ... or perhaps in the same way, as English simplifies the other languages in the present. Internationality always means "simplification", as only that words are used, that are understood by the communication partner. And "foreigners" doesn't understand so much words ... 3. There are simply a lot of grammatical features in alphabetical languages, which raise the accuracy of the given information, which are not possible in the Chinese writing system. German language has for example (cause the more complicated grammar) more differentiation possibilities than English (and more information accuracy, for this reason it was loved by the philosophs). As a negative result all sentences have 10 - 20 % more text. Naturally the Chinese invented some "foreign looking" tricks to improve the limitations of their system. However: Look back, we've in our language background 500 years of book printing, which means increased language-development, which means collective reading, which means libraries, which means millions of books, millions of writers, and nowadays millions of Internet pages etc.. Look at China. Where are these 500 years of book printing? When the Chinese noted, that they were fallen back in cultural development, they started a revolution. This is around 100 years ago. Greetings, Lothar ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2000 11:42:42 EDT From: FKegan@aol.com Subject: Re: HEX8: Chinese language and the printing press Hi Lothar, The printing press and eye glasses are often cited as great ingredients of European development. Both can also be seen as just adaptations to the destruction of the Black Death which reduced the number of folks available with education enough to read and write. Those cultures where clerks read to the scholar don't need eye glasses and where there are many scribes machines are not required to write books. Diamond Jared studied the question of why Europe came to dominate the world while other cultures were generally more sophisticated. The answer seems to come down, not to Jumbo Jets, but to cannon on ships which were developed to supply grain to cities unable to feed themselves due to the geography of Europe. That firepower and cargo capacity made for maritime conquest, and the Ideology of Adventure which saw value as being elsewhere and only available to those who went off and took it gave the motivation. The Chinese developed great fleets, but never the interest to keep up conquest for any period of time. All of which is of only secondary interest. More important, I believe, is noticing that we tend to see things from our own expectations, and thus it is always a great effort to understand what might be understood outside the limits of our own culture. In terms of the I Ching, I am only now beginning to appreciate the aspect of its interpretation as advice to government bureaucrats since I have a temporary job with the US Federal government working on the Census. Whatever the realities of Chinese or Western culture, government bureaucracies share some remarkable similarities between ancient China and modern America. How things are interpreted in those terms is different from what the hexagrams would mean in other human relationships. There are infinite ways to interpret and describe, and general discussion is useful to all (cf. Wilhelm commentary on hex 58) Frank ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2000 08:38:58 -0700 (PDT) From: diane haldane Subject: HEX8: timing hi all, does someone have a method to ask the i ching when is the best time to undertake something, or indeed to undertake it at all? thanks, diane __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online and get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com/ ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 May 2000 06:24:50 EDT From: Autorbis@aol.com Subject: Re: HEX8: Chinese language and the printing press Hi Frank, << Hi Lothar, The printing press and eye glasses are often cited as great ingredients of European development. Both can also be seen as just adaptations to the destruction of the Black Death which reduced the number of folks available with education enough to read and write. Those cultures where clerks read to the scholar don't need eye glasses and where there are many scribes machines are not required to write books. Diamond Jared studied the question of why Europe came to dominate the world while other cultures were generally more sophisticated. The answer seems to come down, not to Jumbo Jets, but to cannon on ships which were developed to supply grain to cities unable to feed themselves due to the geography of Europe. That firepower and cargo capacity made for maritime conquest, and the Ideology of Adventure which saw value as being elsewhere and only available to those who went off and took it gave the motivation. The Chinese developed great fleets, but never the interest to keep up conquest for any period of time. ### China had its try to explore the world under the followers of Dschingis Khan in a rather excessive way. When the Mongolish dynasties had broken down, accompanied by a lot of social revolutions, this politic changed with the time (probably as a result of the inner destruction, which gave a strong desire "to return to tradition"). In the first half of 15th century the Chinese still had the greatest ships of the world and travelled as far as Africa, although it is reported, that "Chinese were not allowed to travel to foreign countries since 1371" and that even "coast-shipping was forbidden in early 15th century" (a rule, that was changed slowly since the middle of 16th century). Generally it is said, that "China lost its creativity in this time". The Chinese had historically also an interest to explore the world, but the inner structure to do so was missing at the time, when the Europeans started their development. And the Europeans started that development, when the earlier trading routes (Venezia, Genua) where blocked cause the strong Osmanian power. The weak Europeans couldn't go to the East, so they explored the West. The Osmanians caught Konstantinople in 1453 and were before Vienna at the beginning of 16th century. ### ### I doubt that the great plague of 1348 can be seen as a reason for literary development. "Reading" and "Writing" of people not connected immediately to the church depended on the development of cities. Farmers on the countryside doesn't need it, but citizens. The general city-development had also a "positive" influence on the development of Black Death, of course. Missing canalization, bathing houses, prostitution, travellers etc. However, one has to consider, that the greatest library of Europe of Charles V. (- 1380) in France had only around 1000 books (probably I've more than this), and the existing book lists show, that these were mostly books for religious matters (under them for instance around 20 versions of the apocalypse). And probably not many people had the opportunity to visit this library and to read these books. But reading and writing was used to edit the city records and all these other stuff. The development of universities was also bound to the general city development. Import of grain was always an important problem for greater cities. Rome already imported grain from Egyptia, without cannons. The Chinese also had cannons. They defended with them their cities against the nomades of the West. ### Lothar Lothar ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ End of hexagram-8-digest V1 #174 ********************************