From owner-hexagram-8-digest@apocalypse.org Sat Sep 30 07:28:54 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id HAA16534 for hexagram-8-digest-outgoing; Sat, 30 Sep 2000 07:28:54 -0400 Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2000 07:28:54 -0400 Message-Id: <200009301128.HAA16534@apocalypse.org> X-Authentication-Warning: apocalypse.org: majordom set sender to owner-hexagram-8-digest@apocalypse.org using -f From: owner-hexagram-8-digest@apocalypse.org (hexagram-8-digest) To: hexagram-8-digest@apocalypse.org Subject: hexagram-8-digest V1 #176 Reply-To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Sender: owner-hexagram-8-digest@apocalypse.org Errors-To: owner-hexagram-8-digest@apocalypse.org Precedence: bulk hexagram-8-digest Saturday, September 30 2000 Volume 01 : Number 176 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 23 Jul 2000 11:43:44 +0200 From: "Frank Coolen" Subject: Re: HEX8: In-Reply-To: <39583AB8.525C@sprintmail.com> - ----- Oorspronkelijk bericht ----- Van: Andreas Schoter Aan: Verzonden: maandag 17 juli 2000 23:36 Onderwerp: HEX8: In-Reply-To: <39583AB8.525C@sprintmail.com> > Hi Folks, Hi Andreas (and other folks :-D...) > I've recently got hold of a copy of Alfred Huang's "Complete I Ching". > > My reason for getting it was that it is touted as a Taoist approach to the > book; Huang is called a "Taoist Master" on the cover. But now I'm puzzled > - reading the introduction he seems very preoccupied with Confucious and > his commentaries. Yep, it's sounded far from complete to me too. It is based on the Confucian tradition. He even thinks Confucius wrote the full Ten Wings, which already is outdated. I like his explanation of the "characters". (of the name that is), though. It's a nice book to read, very traditional, and sometimes even out-dated (comments of Confucius) and far from complete, but there are also small details which makes it interesting, like the connection with the calendar, the opposite gua, the inverse gua and the mutual gua. You do not need this book to get all that, because it's already mentioned in other books, but it 's printed together in one book here. There should have been expplanations about these items, why he choose to print these gua's, and what you can do with them. There are just plain texts, comments (confucian, NOT taost, to me that is :-D...) and no explanations why he choose for certain items.... In the meanwhile I'm gonna unsubscribe myself because I will be back with a new e-mail adres. Regards, Frank C ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 01 Aug 2000 21:04:51 +0100 From: Andreas Schoter Subject: HEX8: Huang's Translation At 10:48 22/07/00 -0400, Glenroy Wolfsen wrote: >Do you have the Ritsema/Karcher (Eranos Foundation) version, and if so, >what do you think of it? I have it. I've not worked a lot with it. However, I like the introductory material a lot - I have found that to be very interesting and helpful. Andreas ___________________________________________________________________________ Yijing Algebra http://www.weft.telinco.co.uk/changes mailto:yi-weft@telinco.co.uk ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 01 Aug 2000 21:13:45 +0100 From: Andreas Schoter Subject: HEX8: Book Recommendation Hi Folks, I've been meaning to mention this for a while now. Let me whole heartedly recommend the following volume: "Ta Chuan: The Great Treatise" by Stephen Karcher. Published by Carroll and Brown. This is an interesting translation of one of the key works on the Yi with an insightfull commentary by Karcher himself. In particular he tries to identify those portions of the text that are Taoist in origin and those that are Confucian in origin. It's a beautifully produced book, although it does lack a bibliography (I'm given to understand this is as a result of the publisher's preferences rather than Karcher's). Enjoy. Andreas ____________________________________________________________________________ Five Winds Tai Chi Chuan http://www.weft.telinco.co.uk/taiji mailto:five-winds@telinco.co.uk ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 01 Aug 2000 21:10:53 +0100 From: Andreas Schoter Subject: Re: HEX8: RE: Master Huang's book At 22:58 21/07/00 -0400, Gait, Christopher wrote: >I, too, found that Alfred Huang's book is quite Confucianist in tone. Yes, having read a deal more of it now it very much reminds me of the commentary attributed to Cheng Yi in Cleary's work "The Tao of Organization" - that has a heavy preoccupation with structural notions such as correspondence and correctness which are typically taken to be of Confucian origin. As Frank Coolen noted in another message, Huang doesn't really explain a lot of the ideas that he uses, if I wasn't familiar with the ideas from other sources I'm not sure some of it would make sense. >very pleasing. I also enjoy the wonderful design of the book itself (I'm an >addictive bibliophile). Yes, it is a very nice book. >I've just gotten my copy of "The Numerology of the I Ching" by Master Huang >from >Barnes & Noble, but I haven't had much of a chance to get into it. I have this on order from Amazon - I'm hoping it will arrive soon. >With your interest in the patterns of the Yi I think you will find it of >interest, even if a lot of it will be familiar from other sources. Yes, I'm looking forward to reading it. All the Best Andreas > >Regards, >Chris Gait > >On 17 Jul 2000, at 22:36, Andreas Schoter wrote: > >> Hi Folks, >> >> I've recently got hold of a copy of Alfred Huang's "Complete I Ching". >> >> My reason for getting it was that it is touted as a Taoist approach to the >> book; Huang is called a "Taoist Master" on the cover. But now I'm puzzled >> - reading the introduction he seems very preoccupied with Confucious and >> his commentaries. >> >> I've not started in the renditions of the gua texts yet - I'll report back >> again when I've read it all :-) In the meantime, what have other folks >> made of this version? >> >> All the Best >> >> Andreas >> >> >___________________________________________________________________________ >> Yijing >Algebra >> >http://www.weft.telinco.co.uk/changes >> >mailto:yi-weft@telinco.co.uk > > >===== >To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org >from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. > > ___________________________________________________________________________ Yijing Algebra http://www.weft.telinco.co.uk/changes mailto:yi-weft@telinco.co.uk ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2000 10:13:00 -0400 From: "Aquel" Subject: Re: HEX8: Book Recommendation > > "Ta Chuan: The Great Treatise" by Stephen Karcher. Published by > Carroll and Brown. > > Enjoy. > > Andreas > Interesting, I just searched for that book in BN and Amazon and it says it not yet published in the US (to be released in September 2000 by St. Martin's Press). Good is just a month away..... :-) Cheers, Luis Andrade _ _ /_\ __ _ _ _ ___| | //_\\ / _` | | | |/ _ \ | / _ \ (_| | |_| | __/ | \_/ \_/\__, |\__,_|\___|_| |_| ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 12:38:04 +0200 From: "Robert Matusan - Boyler" Subject: HEX8: new one Hi there, Am I in? Is there anybody out there? Well, however...let me introduce myself. My name is Robert Matusan - Boyler. I am from Rijeka, Croatia, Europe, and I am interested in things Chinese (Chinese philosophy, religion, and metaphysics), and "Yijing" is, among these things, my first love. I've read some of Hexagram-8 archives. Is there something new in the world of "Yijing". I have heard the new issue of "Oracle" is available. If anybody is reading this, please give me some sign of life. Wansui! Boyler ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 08:35:59 -0400 From: "Dr R. Butler" Subject: HEX8: ...and the Tao Hi ! Recently this list has achieved a kind of Taoist perfection of quietness. All the best, Rhett ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 08:56:37 -0500 From: omei shan Subject: Re: HEX8: new one Welcome to HEX8! I guess everybody's been busy this summer - No one's posted anything in months! Monica At 12:38 PM 9/29/00 +0200, you wrote: >Hi there, > >Am I in? Is there anybody out there? >Well, however...let me introduce myself. My name is Robert Matusan - Boyler. >I am from Rijeka, Croatia, Europe, and I am interested in things Chinese >(Chinese philosophy, religion, and metaphysics), and "Yijing" is, among >these things, my first love. I've read some of Hexagram-8 archives. >Is there something new in the world of "Yijing". I have heard the new issue >of "Oracle" is available. >If anybody is reading this, please give me some sign of life. > >Wansui! >Boyler > > > > >===== >To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org >from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. > ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 16:00:04 +0200 From: Kirk McElhearn Subject: Re(2): HEX8: new one On 29/09/00, at 8:56, omei shan omei@express-news.net said: >Welcome to HEX8! I guess everybody's been busy this summer - No one's >posted anything in months! So that's what happened... I thought I got bumped from the list, and resubbed a few days ago... Kirk vice versa Translations - French to English, English to French | Technical Writing Traductions francais-anglais, anglais-francais | Redaction technique . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . kirk@mcelhearn.com http://www.mcelhearn.com Kirk McElhearn | Chemin de la Lauze | 05600 Guillestre | France ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 07:34:44 -0700 From: "Donna Fitzgerald" Subject: HEX8: changing lines Good morning everyone, As the moderator of another list, I always laugh when the group goes radio silent for a while and then reemerges from it's hibernation only to begin chatting about their silence. The quality of a list is directly related to the amount of on topic discussion, so I'll do my best to ask an on topic discussion. Since I joined shortly before the list when silent I apologize in advance if my question is one you've discussed before. I've always been curious about how to interpret the moving lines. Multiple lines conflict lines sometimes seem at odds with the base hexagram and may or may not be at odds with the transformed hexagram On the other time sometimes the line is the only part of the reading that makes sense. I got a reading yesterday where the line seemed to say something I was asking about wasn't going to happen. 35, with line one changing. After asking a few more question I realized that the changing line might have been referring to more future plans and not my immediate question. I'd love to hear others experience. Donna > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org > [mailto:owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org]On Behalf Of Kirk McElhearn > Sent: Friday, September 29, 2000 6:00 AM > To: I Ching list > Subject: Re(2): HEX8: new one > > > On 29/09/00, at 8:56, omei shan omei@express-news.net said: > > >Welcome to HEX8! I guess everybody's been busy this summer - No one's > >posted anything in months! > > So that's what happened... I thought I got bumped from the list, and > resubbed a few days ago... > > Kirk > > vice versa > Translations - French to English, English to French | Technical Writing > Traductions francais-anglais, anglais-francais | Redaction > technique > . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . > . . . . . > kirk@mcelhearn.com http://www.mcelhearn.com > Kirk McElhearn | Chemin de la Lauze | 05600 Guillestre | France > > > > ===== > To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org > from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. > > ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 17:26:20 +0200 From: "Cornelis van der Wal" Subject: HEX8: Re: changing lines - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Donna Fitzgerald" To: Sent: Friday, September 29, 2000 4:34 PM Subject: HEX8: changing lines > Good morning everyone, > > As the moderator of another list, I always laugh when the group goes radio > silent for a while and then reemerges from it's hibernation only to begin > chatting about their silence. The quality of a list is directly related to > the amount of on topic discussion, so I'll do my best to ask an on topic > discussion. Since I joined shortly before the list when silent I apologize > in advance if my question is one you've discussed before. > > I've always been curious about how to interpret the moving lines. > > Multiple lines conflict > lines sometimes seem at odds with the base hexagram and may or may not be at > odds with the transformed hexagram > On the other time sometimes the line is the only part of the reading that > makes sense. > > I got a reading yesterday where the line seemed to say something I was > asking about wasn't going to happen. 35, with line one changing. After > asking a few more question I realized that the changing line might have been > referring to more future plans and not my immediate question. > > I'd love to hear others experience. > > Donna > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org > > [mailto:owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org]On Behalf Of Kirk McElhearn > > Sent: Friday, September 29, 2000 6:00 AM > > To: I Ching list > > Subject: Re(2): HEX8: new one > > > > > > On 29/09/00, at 8:56, omei shan omei@express-news.net said: > > > > >Welcome to HEX8! I guess everybody's been busy this summer - No one's > > >posted anything in months! > > > > So that's what happened... I thought I got bumped from the list, and > > resubbed a few days ago... > > > > Kirk Hello Donna and the rest! I found out, in several cases, that the first hexagram was pointing to the future and that the second hexagram, the one that was created trough the changing lines, was telling me more about my present situation. Anyone out there with the same exp.? Cornelis ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 12:59:54 -0400 From: yulong@mindspring.com Subject: Re: HEX8: changing lines What does it mean to be at odds with in this passage? Ken ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 14:37:53 EDT From: FKegan@aol.com Subject: HEX8: Re: changing lines Hi All, Interpreting an oracle is a complex process, particularly if you are basing your reading on the verbal text and its translation of Ancient Chinese poetry and slogans into modern Western language. To the good, an oracle usually produces what you need to know, by whatever means necessary. A Yi hexagram as an oracle is answering your question with a process description. The oracle hexagram is the general process going on in answer to your question. Each hexagram has 6 stages represented by its lines, and an emphasis of one or more of those stages represents a process which rather than continuing on along the path of the original hexagram is tending toward a new process represented by the resultant hexagram. The set of moving lines as a whole become important as they together indicate how your unique process is in transition from one of the 64 stalwarts toward another. In interpreting a single moving line, there is a concentrated focus on the distinction between the line judgment and the overall hexagram judgment. This can be modified a bit by looking at the whole set beginning with the first hexagram (or even its nuclear for where things arose within) and moving toward the second, with the moving line and its position in the oracle hexagram as a clue to what aspect of the process is being stressed. It is always important to remember that the translated commentaries are based upon Ancient Imperial Bureaucrat's perspective, the "modern" commentary begins with Confucius over 2.5 millennia ago. When the text says misfortune, humiliation or bad luck, it means that results will be your personal responsibility and the result of your own initiative. This was certain bad news in Ancient Chinese government posts, and still tends to be dangerous for bureaucrats. Your situation might be different from that. Particularly hexagram 35 which refers to a loyal subordinate gathering forces for the benefit of his superiors in the text. This can also be referred to the Rising Sun or Son and the beginning of a new day. The unfortunate line judgments refer to situations where this new guy on the block might actually be starting something truly new and different. In Ancient Imperial terms that is very bad, but today that might be exactly what you would welcome as great encouragement. Frank R. Kegan ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 16:35:11 -0400 From: Kirk Pennak Subject: Re: HEX8: changing lines And howdy, y'all - from yet another new subscriber. Re: the following... >I've always been curious about how to interpret the moving lines. > >Multiple lines conflict >lines sometimes seem at odds with the base hexagram and may or may not be at >odds with the transformed hexagram >On the other time sometimes the line is the only part of the reading that >makes sense. This is a problem that had also bothered me for many years; I've actually been amazed, however, by a method described in Albert Huang's "Complete I Ching" (worth the bucks, by the way)... I won't go into full detail, but Huang (a Taoist Master) describes a method he uses to winnow the changing lines down to one particular line, to find the true essence of the reading. Allow me to give you an example from my own life: earlier this week, I was facing a deadline in waiting for an important decision/phone call; I had no other choice except to wait, and I didn't know what my options would be once the deadline had passed. Asking about the likelihood of this call coming, I received hexagram 48, lines 2, 4, and 5 - with 62 as the relating/future hexagram. At first, this reading made no sense whatsoever; I mean, these three lines are seriously at odds with each other... so, using the rule Huang provides for receiving three moving lines (look to the moving line in the middle of the three lines), I was able to see that events were still in preparation, and to prepare myself - with the 62 telling me to continue in my low profile. In other words: get ready, but stay out of sight for now. I continued to watch the situation evolving from a distance, and I was surprised when I noticed a shift in the situation - one that came out of the blue... Once the deadline passed, I consulted the I Ching again - but this time, I received a direct answer: 21, line 5, changing to 25 - act now: bite through the obstruction using nothing except a direct,innocent approach. This would bring great success. Now in the sensitive state things were in, I would have never thought about approaching this situation in that manner - but the next day, that's exactly what I did. And damned if it didn't work. (I'm still in shock.) There are other methods for divining the truth within your reading; for example, I also look for clues in step diagrams, and especially within the "change" pattern the moving lines generate (this reveals _how_ the change will come about), but those methods are better saved for yet another discussion. ;-) And Donna, I have the same problem sometimes, with the hexagram leading me to believe it's referring me to yet another future event (or better yet, sometimes chastising me because I pretty much know the answer to what I'm asking, so it's trying to make me think about another, more immediate problem); this is why keeping a journal of your readings is (to my mind) essential. Sometimes you only see what the I Ching was trying to tell you in hindsight; that may not help you with your immediate problem, but it _will_ help you gain insight into understanding many other cryptic readings you'll receive in the future. Finally, remember you're trying to reach into your own intuition; sometimes when you find yourself completely baffled, you need to get up from the I Ching and come back to it later. Let your unconscious mull it over. Sometimes what the I Ching was trying to tell you will pop into your head, all by itself. It's weird, but hey - it works for me. Hope this helps. kirk pennak ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2000 00:01:54 +0200 From: "Robert Matusan - Boyler" Subject: Re: HEX8: changing lines Hi Donna, and all, <> First of all I'm glad that this list still works, that I am now one of you, and, of course, that you all woke up after summer sleep (and in some parts of the world, from winter sleep :o)) I am really new here, but I've read some of messages in archive, and I think there was some talking about multiple lines interpretation. There are some explanations about such interpretations in "An Anthology of I Ching", by Sherrill & Chu, pp. 27-28, taken from "The Hidden Meanings of Yi" (I don't know the author or Chinese title of the book. If anybody knows something more about it, please let me/us know), also repeated in "Moving with Change", by Rowena Pattee, p. 33. It could also mean that the situation is complex, or/and it will take time to come to situation represented by resulting hexagram, so that each line represents one step in evolving of the situation, or processes you should pass through in your way, giving you advices and/or warnings for each step. You can also change line by line and read as many resulting hexagrams as you get (sometimes is useful to read the text of corresponding (same) line(s) in resulting hexagrams), or you can interpret an answer just by means of attributes of each primary and/or nuclear trigrams, not using "Yijing" text at all. Hope it helps. Wansui! Boyler ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 16:43:40 -0600 From: bradford Subject: HEX8: introduction Good day (& bom dia) everyone I'm a newcomer to this list & wanted to introduce myself. I've been a lone scowler of Chinese thought for about 33 years. In the last six I've produced a self-published, two volume study/translation of the Yi, also a new translation of Laozi. Am about to start Yijing Vol. 3, which will be commentary. I may be posting little pieces of this from time to time, and may soon post the whole work temporarily on a website to solicit feedback. I'm also willing to share files - for this purpose - by private Email. The files combined are about 5mb. I live alone in a tiny mountain town in Colorado & felt a need to start bustin' out of this shell & see what others are doing & bumped into Hex8 among other great contacts and finds. Have been trying to get onto the list for a couple of months now & so have had time to "lurk" at high speed through all of the archives up to Jan 2000, being forbidden to see anything after that. I suppose there's nothing recent in terms of threads to pick up. My approach to Yixue *leans* towards the scholarly & conseravtive, except that I am not especially fond of the Modernist school, which I might on occasion refer to as Grunting Hamster Disease or Twitching Captive Syndrome. I appreciate them when they make sense, but they can take their dancing elephants away. I think that The Emperor's New Clothes ought to be required reading for all scholars in the field. I've read, and own, much of what's in print (bibliography's at 138 volumes. and climbing). That includes lots of fluff, but hey - the drool washes off, and sometimes it hides a gem. I tend to look at the Yi as a manual of Psychological Attitudes (towards Change), intentionally written as such, by a group of humans under Imperial patronage, beginning in the Early Zhou. I see it as much broader than divination in intent, but using the divinatory aspects as bait. Maybe that theory comes from the sufi in me. Finally, I see this Intent to instruct as primary, with Yi Li and Xiang Shu aspects of the lore being primarily later algorithms, sometimes useful, but often distracting. I'm looking forward to participating in this group & learning more, and maybe helping someone with a puzzle or two. da ji Bradford Hatcher bradford@independence.net ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 21:09:21 -0700 From: "Luis Andrade" Subject: HEX8: Changing Lines / Sherril & Chu Welcome Robert (or is it Boyler?) and all the new faces in Hex-8!! Hey Robert, I see you have the right books! I was about to reply to Donna, book in hand, when I saw your message... :-) > I am really new here, but I've read some of messages in archive, and I > think there was some talking about multiple lines interpretation. > There are some explanations about such interpretations in "An > Anthology of I Ching", by Sherrill & Chu, pp. 27-28, taken from "The > Hidden Meanings of Yi" (I don't know the author or Chinese title of Here is what Robert is referring to and I will quote from the book from Sherril and Chu; Quote - ------- To return to the matter of the interpretation of the hexagram derived from tossing the coins, the following commentaries will be found useful and beneficial in arriving at the meaning of any oracle thus obtained. They are somewhat similar to those set forth in the Chinese book "The Hidden meaning of I": a) Read the Judgement and Image of the hexagram as a whole to get a good feel for the overall meaning of the hexagram. If the are no moving lines, use the Judgement and Image statements for your evaluation. b) One Moving Line: Make the judgement and final evaluation on the text of the one moving line. c) Two Moving Lines: Consider the text of both moving lines and give the upper line more weight in the evaluation than the lower. d) Three Moving Lines: Consider the text of all the moving lines and give the greatest weight to the text of the middle moving line, and to the text of both the present and future hexagram. e) Four Moving Lines: Read all the lines and give greatest weight to the meaning of the two unmoving lines as they are described in the future hexagram. Emphasize the meaning of the lower non-moving line as it is found in the future hexagram. f) Five Moving Lines: Read all the lines and give greatest weight to the meaning of the single non-moving line as it is described in the future hexagram along with the final outcome depicted in the future hexagram. g) Six Moving Lines: Read everything but make the evaluation on the basis of the final outcome (future) hexagram. Unquote - ----------- Although interpreting Yi's answers is a very subjective matter, I find the above quote as a good start for a person who is a beginner or is starting to seriously study the Yi. All the best, Luis Andrade ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 20:16:45 -0700 From: "Donna Fitzgerald" Subject: RE: HEX8: changing lines Ken, >From my some what myopic perspective if the base hexagram says everything is going well (hexagram 35 is gradual progress) reading line one which says progress is stopped seems to be a contradiction. When I first started with the I-Ching I tended to read the lines the way I would read the blocking rune in a six rune spread; as the process through which you needed to pass to get to the ultimate outcome or in the I-Ching the transformed hexagram. After 5 years of recording readings I haven't always found this to be true, hence my question. In my own case it occured to me that I had asked a specific question but that there was an underlying subtext behind my question, and I could see where the changing line might in fact be much more in keeping with the part of the question I didn't ask. As silly as it may sound I have occassionally gotten the feeling that the I-Ching was struggling to answer the real question in it's entirety rather than the piece I asked. Donna > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org > [mailto:owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org]On Behalf Of > yulong@mindspring.com > Sent: Friday, September 29, 2000 9:00 AM > To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org > Subject: Re: HEX8: changing lines > > > may not be at > odds with the transformed hexagram> > > What does it mean to be at odds with > in this passage? > > Ken > > > > ===== > To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org > from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. > > ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 20:28:58 -0700 From: "Donna Fitzgerald" Subject: RE: HEX8: Re: changing lines Frank, Please elucidate... I am intrigued by what you've said but not sure I understand it completely. I am considering making a move that I hope will provide me with some time so that I can pursue my real goal which is to write and develop training courses which I believe could radically change the way people in my proffession approach their jobs. My initial reading of line one was that I wouldn't get the job, but when I threw the I-Ching again asking if the line had pertained to the client I would be interviewing with I got 34 going to 11. This seemed to me to imply I should look elsewhere for what it meant. The next logical choice would be the venture I intended to start as a result of cutting my hours from 60 down to 40. If the line is in fact saying that I'm planning on starting something new and different, then I would give it an A for accuracy. Donna > Particularly hexagram 35 which refers to a loyal subordinate > gathering forces for the benefit of his superiors in the text. This can also be > referred to the Rising Sun or Son and the beginning of a new day. The > unfortunate line judgments refer to situations where this new guy on the > block might actually be starting something truly new and different. In > Ancient Imperial terms that is very bad, but today that might be > exactly what you would welcome as great encouragement. > ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2000 11:20:43 +0200 From: Jean-Pierre Dautun Subject: Re: HEX8: The bait, or the whole fish? Hi everybody, Welcome to you all newcomers, and welcome back to all others, after all this — indeed very taoist — quietness. I just drop a line (!) to react to one detail in bradford's introduction, a point I heard many times and that I never hear without an urge to reply. Here it is : " I see (the yi) as much broader than divination in intent, but using the divinatory aspects as bait. " This famous question of the divination as a "bait" for something greater, broader or more secret, — and nobler, has always made me feel itchy. Just *what * can be higher? This seems to imply that divination is just a pastime for speculative 'beginners', who need to get further their blindness, towards higher purposes — and hopefully will find out some day. To me divination is necessarily , and not only for historical, but for epistemological reasons, the very *core* of the yi, and of all the peaks of wisdom and knowledge it may aim at and reach. The bait is the whole fish."How could it be elsewise?". Is the possibility to find one's path with the help of a compass, a 'bait' towards understanding of the laws of Earth magnetic field? Of course no : first, the tool exists to fulfill a practical need, and this need is the very cause of the creation of the tool; second, the tool and the knowledge it encapsulates (unbenownst or not) make one (even if the tool has been empirically born), and third, the knwoledge implicit in the tool which can emerge further is still one with the tool. Which is, by the way, very much in the state of mind of China pragmatism. Same for Yi, divination, and 'the broads intents' supposedly hidden below. Compass is a tool for objective space, the yi is a compass for subjective time. Few intents are broader in human speculations, than the ones about time, changes, and their relations to human action and decision. That's formely and ultimately just what divination is really about, i.e, an eterrnal, constant and serious urge, as well as an everyday need, for anyone, from emperors and soldiers down to peasants, — and today Hex-8ers…And that's the ultimate reason why we care about the yi. So why imagine something further? (as lao tse says, "the further you go, the lesser yo know"). The ultimate knowledge whose divination is the 'bait' is the laws of relation between time, human time consciousness and choice — nothing else and nothing less than the laws of the mystery of divination. To wonder if divination it is a path towards any other upper level of wisdom, or, (as often, here and there), some sort of archaic draft for modern cosmic theories supposed brighter because they seem electronically sophisticated, is just off topic, — lightyears from home. Divination is not only a childish guessin game, — or in that case, Chinese emperors have been children, and chinese philosophers their nurses— nor a fool's paradise. It is a way in to speculation about time, human consciousness and conscience, but i just can't see where speculation about time could get higher and further than were divination puts it to begin with, and leads it eventually. So, to me, divination is like the center of a cercle that would be the whole circle itself. Divinatorily yours. Jp Dautun, Silent as he can. ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2000 13:26:12 +0200 From: "Robert Matusan - Boyler" Subject: Re: HEX8: The bait, or the whole fish? Hi Jp Dautun, Thank you for your warm welcoming. "Yijing" is without any doubt meant for divination, and earliest archeological data tend to confirm that. It is generally believed "Yijing" got some philosophical meaning in hands of Confucius and/or his school of thought. Since that times "Yijing" is accompanied with one of its first commentaries ('Ten Wings'), where is explained its divinatory, as well as its philosophical and/or spiritual nature. Later "Yijing" was used in daoist alchemy and fengshui too. Since it ("Yijing") contains all basic elements (heaven, earth, thunders, winds, moving waters, fires, mountains and still waters) in all their possible combinations, everything in the outer world (as well as in inner world) can be explained and elucidated by means of "Yijing". So it could be used as basis pattern for explaining, past and future, physical and psychological, mundane and spiritual, scientific and religious, etc. and in it can be seen, as in mirror, all we want to see in it. But the trick is to go behind the mirror. To reach the dao. It's good trying to explain or correlate genetic code with "Yijing", but this, in most cases, does not enrich quality of our lives, it's just a comparative technique which tell us "a=b", but to go behind the mirror, we should ask ourselves what is "a", or what is "b", not just quote the equation. Although it's good and interesting it's not of much use to our spiritual progress. Divination can be used for trivial things, or can help to bring us closer to the dao. But as an old alchemical saying is telling us: "To create gold, one must already have gold." Or as it is said in 'Ten Wings': "But if you are not right man, the meaning will not manifest itself to you." And for an conclusion here is an excerpt from Introduction from "The Complete Works of Chuang Tzu (Zhuang Zi)", translated by Burton Watson, p. 11 :"...Or, to turn from officialdom to the world of private citizens, we may note the case of a scholar named Yen Chün-ping (Yan Junping) of the region of Szechwan (Sichuan) who made his living as a diviner in the market place of Ch'eng-tu (Chengdu). He admitted that this was a rather lowly occupation, but explained that he pursued it 'because I can thereby benefit common people. When men come to me with questions about something that is evil or improper, I use the oracle as an excuse to advise them on what is right. I advise sons to be filial, younger brothers to be obedient, subjects to be loyal, utilizing whatever the circumstances may be to lead the people to what is right - and over half of them follow my advice!' So Yen Chün-ping spend his days instructing people, in this ingenious fashion, in the dictates of conventional morality. But when he made enough money for one day, "he shut up his stall, lowered the blinds, and gave instruction in Lao tzu ("Laozi")' (Han shu 72). He was the author of a work which was based on doctrines of Lao Tzu (Lao Zi) and Chuang Tzu (Zhuang Zi), and was teacher of the most eminent Confucian philosopher of the time, Yang Hsiung (Yang Xiong) (53 B.C. - A.D. 18)..." Hope it helps. Wansui! Boyler - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jean-Pierre Dautun" To: Sent: Saturday, September 30, 2000 11:20 AM Subject: Re: HEX8: The bait, or the whole fish? Hi everybody, Welcome to you all newcomers, and welcome back to all others, after all this - indeed very taoist - quietness. I just drop a line (!) to react to one detail in bradford's introduction, a point I heard many times and that I never hear without an urge to reply. Here it is : " I see (the yi) as much broader than divination in intent, but using the divinatory aspects as bait. " This famous question of the divination as a "bait" for something greater, broader or more secret, - and nobler, has always made me feel itchy. Just *what * can be higher? This seems to imply that divination is just a pastime for speculative 'beginners', who need to get further their blindness, towards higher purposes - and hopefully will find out some day. To me divination is necessarily , and not only for historical, but for epistemological reasons, the very *core* of the yi, and of all the peaks of wisdom and knowledge it may aim at and reach. The bait is the whole fish."How could it be elsewise?". Is the possibility to find one's path with the help of a compass, a 'bait' towards understanding of the laws of Earth magnetic field? Of course no : first, the tool exists to fulfill a practical need, and this need is the very cause of the creation of the tool; second, the tool and the knowledge it encapsulates (unbenownst or not) make one (even if the tool has been empirically born), and third, the knwoledge implicit in the tool which can emerge further is still one with the tool. Which is, by the way, very much in the state of mind of China pragmatism. Same for Yi, divination, and 'the broads intents' supposedly hidden below. Compass is a tool for objective space, the yi is a compass for subjective time. Few intents are broader in human speculations, than the ones about time, changes, and their relations to human action and decision. That's formely and ultimately just what divination is really about, i.e, an eterrnal, constant and serious urge, as well as an everyday need, for anyone, from emperors and soldiers down to peasants, - - and today Hex-8ers.And that's the ultimate reason why we care about the yi. So why imagine something further? (as lao tse says, "the further you go, the lesser yo know"). The ultimate knowledge whose divination is the 'bait' is the laws of relation between time, human time consciousness and choice - nothing else and nothing less than the laws of the mystery of divination. To wonder if divination it is a path towards any other upper level of wisdom, or, (as often, here and there), some sort of archaic draft for modern cosmic theories supposed brighter because they seem electronically sophisticated, is just off topic, - lightyears from home. Divination is not only a childish guessin game, - or in that case, Chinese emperors have been children, and chinese philosophers their nurses- nor a fool's paradise. It is a way in to speculation about time, human consciousness and conscience, but i just can't see where speculation about time could get higher and further than were divination puts it to begin with, and leads it eventually. So, to me, divination is like the center of a cercle that would be the whole circle itself. Divinatorily yours. Jp Dautun, Silent as he can. ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ End of hexagram-8-digest V1 #176 ********************************