From owner-hexagram-8-digest@apocalypse.org Mon Oct 2 01:10:38 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA04663 for hexagram-8-digest-outgoing; Mon, 2 Oct 2000 01:10:38 -0400 Date: Mon, 2 Oct 2000 01:10:38 -0400 Message-Id: <200010020510.BAA04663@apocalypse.org> X-Authentication-Warning: apocalypse.org: majordom set sender to owner-hexagram-8-digest@apocalypse.org using -f From: owner-hexagram-8-digest@apocalypse.org (hexagram-8-digest) To: hexagram-8-digest@apocalypse.org Subject: hexagram-8-digest V1 #177 Reply-To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Sender: owner-hexagram-8-digest@apocalypse.org Errors-To: owner-hexagram-8-digest@apocalypse.org Precedence: bulk hexagram-8-digest Monday, October 2 2000 Volume 01 : Number 177 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2000 14:04:14 +0200 From: "LiSe" Subject: RE: HEX8: changing lines When two things do not match or agree. English is not my native language either, but I found this in the dictionary. LiSe I Ching, Book of the Moon www.aheyboer.com webmaster@aheyboer.com - -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- Van: owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org [mailto:owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org]Namens yulong@mindspring.com Verzonden: vrijdag 29 september 2000 19:00 Aan: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Onderwerp: Re: HEX8: changing lines What does it mean to be at odds with in this passage? Ken ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2000 14:04:15 +0200 From: "LiSe" Subject: RE: HEX8: changing lines Hello everybody, (Another new one! Nice to meet you all. I have been here before, but when my computer went down and moreover my server changed his name, Apocalypse could not find my e-mail address anymore. In March I re-subscribed, and then at last a week ago, I got my subscription. Was sure a long hibernation). I have quite a different idea about lines, but it works extremely well for me. If you imagine a child asking his mother if he can go play outside, the mother says "Yes, if you look very carefully before you cross the street, because a car might run you over" - bad fortune. Or she says "If you look carefully before you cross over, then you will be safe" - good fortune. It is exactly the same advice, only put in different words. If she mentioned both possibilities, she would only confuse the child. So she picks the one that is easiest to explain. I think every line has this same quality: if you do it like this, then good (or bad) fortune. An example: 16.3, a 'bad' line in a 'good' hexagram. "Enthusiasm that looks upward creates remorse. Hesitation brings remorse". Enthusiasm (the name of the hexagram) is an elephant, with two hands 'handing over' or maybe a shuttle (weaving). Elephant means 'image'. So Yu is literally 'handing over or weaving images'. Enthusiasm is contagious, but also inspiration. 'In advance or foreseeing' is getting an image of the future. Yu has other meanings too: 'to cheat' is handing over a wrong image, 'to travel or sightseeing' is also getting images. Line 3 says: if you follow images 'looking upward', without any scepticism or judgment, you will do things you regret. It changes to 62.3 which also says: be careful, look around you. So 16.3 is not bad, it is advice. If you listen to the advice, the outcome will be good, no remorse at all. LiSe I Ching, Book of the Moon www.aheyboer.com webmaster@aheyboer.com - -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- Van: owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org [mailto:owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org]Namens Donna Fitzgerald Verzonden: vrijdag 29 september 2000 16:35 Aan: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Onderwerp: HEX8: changing lines I've always been curious about how to interpret the moving lines. Multiple lines conflict lines sometimes seem at odds with the base hexagram and may or may not be at odds with the transformed hexagram On the other time sometimes the line is the only part of the reading that makes sense. I got a reading yesterday where the line seemed to say something I was asking about wasn't going to happen. 35, with line one changing. After asking a few more question I realized that the changing line might have been referring to more future plans and not my immediate question. I'd love to hear others experience. Donna ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2000 14:13:32 +0200 From: "LiSe" Subject: RE: HEX8: The bait, or the whole fish? I hope you will break your silence more often! LiSe I Ching, Book of the Moon www.aheyboer.com webmaster@aheyboer.com - -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- Van: owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org [mailto:owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org]Namens Jean-Pierre Dautun Verzonden: zaterdag 30 september 2000 11:21 Aan: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Onderwerp: Re: HEX8: The bait, or the whole fish? Hi everybody, Welcome to you all newcomers, and welcome back to all others, after all this - indeed very taoist - quietness. ...Just *what * can be higher?. ...The bait is the whole fish."How could it be elsewise?". Is the possibility to find one's path with the help of a compass, a 'bait' towards understanding of the laws of Earth magnetic field? Of course no Divinatorily yours. Jp Dautun, Silent as he can. ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 09:47:36 -0400 From: jeffrey e zweig Subject: Re: HEX8: ...and the Tao Dear Rhett & Robert, I'm a new member who believes that the Tao Te Ching cannot be translated. The same problem seems to manifest in the I Ching which uses 30 ideograms (approximately) to deliver its message. When translated into english, there are paragraph after paragraph to deliver the same? information. I use the I in Chinese fashion which means I throw my coins & only consider those lines which came up 3 heads or 3 tails. Bob, sorry to shatter your silence. Cheers, Jeff Enlightenment means taking full responsibility for your life.--William Blake ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2000 10:08:47 -0300 From: "Marcus Braga" Subject: Re: HEX8: changing lines Hi, everybody! After 15 years listening to my inner Master, I learned that the changing lines, also may be interpreted as other ways to get a different future. For example: If I got the hexagram 1 (Criative) with three changing lines (1, 3 and 5), I can understand that I have seven ways to follow: 1) If I consider and obey only the advise of the first line, it leads me to the hexagram 44; 2) Otherwise, If I only consider (and obey) the advice of the second changing line (the third), the situation will leads me to the hexagram 10; 3) If I prefer to listen (and obey) the advise for the third changing line (line 5), now it will leads me to the hexagram 14; 4) But, if I prefer to act considering the advices of the lines 1 and 3, then the situation wiil changes to the hexagram 6! 5) If I decide to hear the advices of the lines 1 and 5, now the situation will leads me to the hexagram 50; 6) If I consider the lines 3 and 5, I will get the hexagram 38; 7) Finally, if I consider all the changing lines, it leads me to the hexagram 64. Then, I asked to myself what future do I prefer? I believe that life has so many ways to follow. So, interpreting that all the lines will always change and the situation will result in only a future is a big restriction. If you think this way, you are losing all the possibilities of choice in your destiny. The I Ching is a wise book. I would like to know the opnion of the others... (Forgive me for my bad english.) Marcus Braga Ultreya y Suseya! ("Forward and Upward!" in the language of Pilgrims...) ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2000 09:35:40 -0400 From: jeffrey e zweig Subject: HEX8: Projections The I is very projective. Everyone has their own favorite translation of it; that's part of the projection. I first heard of the I from a lecture of Timothy Leary's. He said the guests at Milbrook were using the I to decide how much milk to group needed. This is also projection. Jeff Nothing ever becomes real till it is experienced -- even a proverb is no proverb till your life has illustrated it. -- John Keats ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2000 10:28:26 EDT From: SaadEYKI@aol.com Subject: HEX8: Projections and facts Dans un courrier daté du 30/09/00 15:31:11, hungryghost1@juno.com a écrit : << The I is very projective. Everyone has their own favorite translation of it; that's part of the projection. I first heard of the I from a lecture of Timothy Leary's. He said the guests at Milbrook were using the I to decide how much milk to group needed. This is also projection. Jeff Nothing ever becomes real till it is experienced -- even a proverb is no proverb till your life has illustrated it. -- John Keats>> Maybe, can we look for a more scientific approach of Yi ? A kind of method where lines explain the meaning of the situation and give us the conviction by the facts… The answer of the hexagram must meet facts… and facts the meaning of your own way of hexagramms How many can and are using Yi like this ? Thank you, for J. Keats quotation. Ezéchiel web pages : www.yiking.org (full presented only in french for the moment) ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2000 10:33:22 -0600 From: bradford Subject: HEX8: changing lines hi all- There's a newer method for interpreting multiple changing lines that "seems" to have arisen spontaneously in the early to mid seventies. Mondo Secter refers to the method as "Transitional Hexagrams." Others (including myself) have mentioned just starting to do it this way around the same time. Nobody's ever taken credit for inventing or discovering it - a good thing cuz no doubt someone in China saw it first: Start with the Ben (Original) Gua. Then read and change only the lowest moving line. Go to that Zhi (Resultant) Gua and treat that as the next stage Ben Gua. Read the next changing line there, and then change it. And so on, to the final Zhi Gua. There is a reason that this longer process provides clearer answers. It involves opening up a new topic though - that *one* of the sources of imagery for the Yao Ci texts was an interpolation in meaning between Ben and Zhi Gua. Maybe not many are ready to grant this, though. Anyway, I've found the method to be at least worth recommending for testing. Bradford ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2000 10:14:12 -0700 From: "Bobby & Sarah" Subject: Re: HEX8: new one Yes I read this and I am also interested in the same things as you but I think this e-mail should have gone somewhere else. - ----- Original Message ----- From: Robert Matusan - Boyler To: Sent: Friday, September 29, 2000 3:38 AM Subject: HEX8: new one > Hi there, > > Am I in? Is there anybody out there? > Well, however...let me introduce myself. My name is Robert Matusan - Boyler. > I am from Rijeka, Croatia, Europe, and I am interested in things Chinese > (Chinese philosophy, religion, and metaphysics), and "Yijing" is, among > these things, my first love. I've read some of Hexagram-8 archives. > Is there something new in the world of "Yijing". I have heard the new issue > of "Oracle" is available. > If anybody is reading this, please give me some sign of life. > > Wansui! > Boyler > > > > > ===== > To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org > from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. > ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2000 13:43:05 -0400 From: yulong@mindspring.com Subject: Re: RE: HEX8: changing lines hexagram-8@apocalypse.org wrote: > When two things do not match or agree. English is not my native language either, but I found this in the dictionary. Ah. So if we're pointing out that lines are at odds, i.e. the do not match or agree, then we reveal a presumption that lines somehow should match or agree. After all, if we didn't presume that they should match or agree, then it would hardly be noteworthy that they do not. Where does this presumption come from? Ken ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2000 13:53:51 -0400 From: yulong@mindspring.com Subject: Re: RE: HEX8: changing lines Donna, >From my some what myopic perspective if the base hexagram says everything is going well (hexagram 35 is gradual progress) reading line one which says progress is stopped seems to be a contradiction. I think what I'm asking is, without at all intending to be rude, "So what?" So what that it seems to be a contradiction? Isn't life full of contradictions? It seems to me that the truly curious thing would be to find in a book that has survived as long as the Yi Jing, a situation in which such contradictions were absent. Just a thought, really, that you managed to pique with your earlier post. Ken ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2000 20:56:36 +0100 From: Michael Lutzeier Subject: HEX8: multiple changing lines Hi everybody I'm new on the list and I'm very happy finding it busy again. Happy with the high standard of contributions, too. If I'm in the position to say so. As regarding multiple changing lines, which maybe at odds to each other or the actual Hx's: We all know the lines we are talking of have certain positions (so called places). The six places have several possibilities of distinction: Distinction of Time as they coming into the Hx from "the bottom" and leaving at the "Top". So we might conclude, different lines refer to a chronological outcome/happening. Furthermore, Distinction of realms in the trigram as well as in the Hx. For example: Bottom line(s): - Earth, ; Middle Line(s): - Human, Upper line(s): - Heaven, Some of the associations that might come with that are: Bottom line(s): material world, basics, instincts; Middle Line(s): human world, moral, law and similar things; Upper line(s): Idea(l)s. It would be a good task to find out a list of apropriate asociations for this. This also helps with finding out which line is conferring to which part of the complex situation the YiJing is answering. The confucian way of thinking in hierarchic way might also be helpful for divining: there is nothing wrong of seeing any system (even your own "Leib", which is not translateable, there is no english word for body&soul as an actual unity, in chinese philosophy the path of having unity was never really left, see also the concept of "qi") as a unit of "saint, outer ruler, minister, soldier, inner ruler,worker". There are still other systems like the psychological system including "ego", "impuls" or nature-based systems like "fruit" "branch" "root" and more. Experimenting with these or similiar approaches according to the actual question leads to surprising answer or new horizons. And yet the fact that the lines correspond to each other, will say the 1st to 4th, the 2nd to 5th, the 3rd to the 6th, is important. I think that has to be a topic. Not as an overall truth though, because each Hx is built differentely. That's also why I can't find the "recipe" of sherrill/chu always right, as a general idea yes, but not always. There is a difference between let's say, Hx 41 and Hx 42, Hx 11 and Hx 12. So it might just be the other, the more lower line or the third line of three moving lines, which is the most important one. More often if one of the moving lines is the ruler of the Hx, this gives some extra weight. But in general one can give even stress to all lines, they are only referring to different realm, time, or space. The following Hx, often called the "result", is according to my experience not so much pointing to the future, but combining the moving lines of the first Hx. It's like "the same island seen by a different view" one of my teachers said. As it was mentioned by a member of the list, the answer of the oracle has to be thoroughly interpreted. Sometimes it is neccessary finding the "real" question bothering one just as thoroughly before one is asking. As for Hx 35, line 1 is not so much in odds with the overall meaning of the Hx. Imagine someone putting some branch of wood into a fire. The fire is warm and securing, but he can't get too near to it, and if he continues putting branches in it, the fire may be out of control soon. Greetings to everyone and thank you Donna for bringing up the topic. Greetings to jp dautun, I agree with you. As you said chinese pragmatism, i would say chinese sense of unity. What's the meaning of "wan sui", boyler? So stay awake all you seekers of truth and happiness :-) and I'm looking forward to participating in this group & learning more. Michael Lutzeier mlutzeier@planet-interkom.de ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2000 21:23:33 +0200 From: "Robert Matusan - Boyler" Subject: HEX8: Re: multiple changing lines Hi Michael, > What's the meaning of "wan sui", boyler? It means: "(May you live for) ten thousand years!" Wansui! Boyler ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Jul 2000 21:30:56 +0100 From: "Hilary Barrett" Subject: HEX8: changing lines (and another newcomer) Hello everyone, I'm new to the list, and completely overwhelmed by the richness and depth of comment that Donna has provoked. Can't decide which to reply to! Anyway, here are a few thoughts for what they're worth. I think the question of apparent internal contradictions in answers is an important one, not just a matter of life being full of contradictions. People ask the I Ching 'what if I did this?' and need to be able to understand the answer! (Sorry to state the obvious.) I've found that the applications of the lines and the relating/ 2nd hexagram depend very much on the question. For example, two contradictory lines often represent a choice - 'if you tackle it in the way described by this line, this is what you are letting yourself in for.' I would agree that you can't apply any one formula to all answers - the relations between lines and hexagrams vary endlessly. I'm glad that someone else has also found that the second hexagram can represent the present! I think this often happens with a 'what about doing this?' type question. The primary hexagram and its moving lines answer the question directly, so tend to talk about the future; the second hexagram describes where you stand in relation to the whole issue, so describes the present. Thank you to everyone for giving me so much food for thought! Best wishes, Hilary. ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2000 17:03:34 EDT From: FKegan@aol.com Subject: HEX8: Re: specific oracle of hex 35 Hi Donna, Personally, I generally either limit an oracle to ONE specific question, or ask the Oracle to answer in general about "things" and further, it tends to work out better to ask the oracle about how things feel or what is their meaning than simply what will happen next as the complications which can arise make what one perceives as the oracle and the history very hard to relate to one another. All that proviso and disclaimer aside, you asked the Oracle about you intended move and it replied with Hexagram 35, first line moving, if I understand you correctly. This is the Hexagram of the Rising Sun (Son) changing at the root stage toward the Hexagram of (21) Biting Through or Digging In. Let me forego all the details of my own work, and focus just on Wilhelm. There is nothing bad in the commentary on line one. It is stated as a forward movement, only with a bit of personal doubt and the suggestion is to remain calm and move ahead sensibly. Hexagram 21 is also not "bad" it refers to the need to meet obstacles and work them through, but there is every indication that they can and will be worked through. The oracle 34 becoming 11 with the fourth line moving is also very favorable, speaking about success through the development of a new "vehicle" which will be useful for many things. In general, I would suggest a bit more calm when you approach the Oracle. It also helps to focus and phrase your question so that you are exactly clear about what you are asking. If you react to an oracle by imagining perhaps it refers to something else, you complicate your interpretation task tremendously. The Oracle will answer you quite precisely, and even very clearly (at times too clearly and simply) if that is what you need. Assuming it will be unclear, and therefore you need to think of another alternative instead of taking that time to calm and focus only encourages casting more oracles and avoiding clear answers. You are describing a life situation for you where many things are in the works for you. The Oracle answered, the root stage of the Rising Sun hexagram, you are just at the very beginning and focusing so much on these new options that you are letting your worry interfere with the necessary development of your new process. You weren't content with that answer, so the second oracle was made simpler. You are plowing ahead, with most of your focus upon the feeling in your heart/soul (fourth line) so that you are slipping away from your activities toward imaginative dreams (hex 11) however, things are still going well, and if you can calm down and attend to the tasks you have chosen you still have the ability to make things turn out the way you wish. I hope these more specific comments upon your oracles are more understandable to you. Peace and Power, Frank ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 00:28:48 +0100 From: "Hilary Barrett" Subject: HEX8: Re: specific oracle of hex 35 Hi Frank (and all) I agree wholeheartedly with your style of questioning and interpreting - especially the bit about taking time to interpret the answer before concluding it was about something else. But - haven't you ever found that the I Ching was in fact talking about something more important than what you'd asked about? (Who else has had this experience?) It's happened to me just once, I think. What more frequently happens is that my question is answered and in addition I'm told something more important or profound, or confronted with an issue I'd been hiding from. A couple of other questions: you mention your 'own work' - what have you done? (And where can I find it??) - Do you generally think of Hexagram 11 as representing 'imaginative dreams'? (For me it is about realities - unhindered communication, a free flow between human and spirit.) Or did this reading arise from the context? Best wishes, Hilary ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 01 Oct 2000 03:49:02 +0100 From: Michael Lutzeier Subject: Re: HEX8: Re: specific oracle of hex 35 Hilary Barrett wrote: > ..... But - haven't you ever found that > the I Ching was in fact talking about something more important than what > you'd asked about? (Who else has had this experience?) It's happened to me > just once, I think. .... Hello Hilary and all, Revising my personal records I found out, I tended to think this more often than it actually happened. But it did happen now and then, even if the "superficial" situation is always involved in as you say too. ".....I'm told something more important or profound, or confronted with an issue I'd been hiding from....." I agree with you, the book is a friend and friends are welcome to unveil weakness. All the best, Michael ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2000 20:33:52 -0700 From: "Donna Fitzgerald" Subject: RE: HEX8: Re: specific oracle of hex 35 Hilary, I would say I find this about 5% of the total readings, which means definitely more than once. So 1 out of every 20 times I ask a question I get a reading that I think answers the question I really wanted to ask or the question I should have asked. The interesting thing about this is that it's a completely subjective process, but it's the primary reason I work with the I-Ching. I want to know what it is I'm not seeing... Donna > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org > [mailto:owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org]On Behalf Of Michael Lutzeier > Sent: Saturday, September 30, 2000 6:49 PM > To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org > Subject: Re: HEX8: Re: specific oracle of hex 35 > > > > > Hilary Barrett wrote: > > > ..... But - haven't you ever found that > > the I Ching was in fact talking about something more important than what > > you'd asked about? (Who else has had this experience?) It's > happened to me > > just once, I think. .... > > Hello Hilary and all, > > Revising my personal records I found out, I tended to think this > more often > than it actually happened. But it did happen now and then, even if the > "superficial" situation is always involved in as you say too. > ".....I'm told something more important or profound, or > confronted with an issue I'd been hiding from....." > I agree with you, the book is a friend and friends are welcome to unveil > weakness. > > > > > All the best, > > Michael > > > > > > > ===== > To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org > from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. > > ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 1 Oct 2000 01:22:25 EDT From: FKegan@aol.com Subject: HEX8: Re: hex 11 Hi Hilary, I generally find the Yi answers whatever one needs to know, and that may well be a more general statement than the question asked. As to my work, it is still in process, though a version of it, in terms of the correspondence of the 360 degrees of the Zodiac, and especially the Sabian Symbols for the degrees, to the lines of the 60 hexagrams 3-62 was published for a while a few years ago on the Internet. There are a number of my earlier books which The Aries Press published and I have seen at least some of them on Amazon. Com awhile back. And my current interest is relating the hexagrams in terms of sets of 10 to the Pythagorean Monad, Dyad, Triad and Tetrad, which for the first 10 hexagrams works out to give a very concrete description of the water cycle. It explains the sequence, that is why hexagram line pattern has a specific hexagram sequence number, though it involves rather abstract philosophy beyond the first set of 10. As to Hexagram 11 I call it Dream Land. It is the first hexagram of the second set of 10, thus the Monad of the set at the level of society or the ideal and energy of relationship in society. My first reaction to your positing: "'imaginative dreams'? (For me it is about realities - unhindered communication, a free flow between human and spirit.)" is to ask what is the difference, the free flow of unhindered communication tends to be an ideal state which is all that imaginative dreams are as well. One can make one's hopes and dreams tangible relationships or physical realities, and usually such things are easier to accomplish the fewer other folks have to be integrated into the situation. Best wishes, Frank ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 1 Oct 2000 01:28:46 EDT From: FKegan@aol.com Subject: HEX8: Re: hexagram 35 Hi Donna, There is nothing gradual about hexagram 35, gradual progress is generally associated with 53 the tree growing upon the mountain. 35 is the sun rising over the Earth, a process which is quick and decisive. The first line says nothing about any obstruction to that progress, only that if you feel turned back, stay calm and keep going. It is the first stage of the rising sun, things are initiated but there has not yet been any response or support. That is not resistance, just that it takes time to establish a position and get support to that position. Seeing the lack of immediate success as a contradiction to a hexagram you term gradual progress leaves open the question of why would things be gradual if they had such immediate response and support without doubt? An oracle can always be interpreted as the answer to some other question as well, the tough part is deciding when it is that we need that other answer and when are we just being so impatient that we move on to the next option. Frank ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 01 Oct 2000 12:03:35 +0100 From: Michael Lutzeier Subject: Re: HEX8: Re: hex 11 Hi Frank, I am very curious about your work connecting the zodiac with the Hx's. Can one still find it, somewhere, what is the title of the book or the website? I remember a dutch website by ? working on similiar subject. All the best Michael ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 1 Oct 2000 05:21:49 -0700 From: "Donna Fitzgerald" Subject: RE: HEX8: Re: hexagram 35 Frank, Thanks for your input. Actually all of this was for nothing. I'm simply terminally impatient and didn't want to see that there was resistance where I thought I had support. I sometimes tend to take people at their word. Especially if they're close to me and their word has always been good. The problem arises when fear of change and new ventures gets in the way of a desire to support. The I-Ching struggles to answer and depending on the interpretation that answer can be straightforward or somewhat arcane. By the way my book describes 35 as "a time of RAPID progress" and 53 as a time pointing "to a careful and natural unfolding of events" Rapid progress means rapid progress to my literal mind. "you are restrained from advancing because others lack confidence in you" is diametrically opposed to rapid progress. Now with that said, in my case the error I appear to have made is assuming progress translated into results. #35 seems to have the connotation of the 8 of wands. Rapid movement of events, which based on the moving line will then be slammed to a screeching halt. With any divinatory device I've found I need to keep a record so I can understand how the hexagram tends to manifest in my life. Thanks for you comments, Donna > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org > [mailto:owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org]On Behalf Of FKegan@aol.com > Sent: Saturday, September 30, 2000 9:29 PM > To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org > Subject: HEX8: Re: hexagram 35 > > > Hi Donna, > There is nothing gradual about hexagram 35, gradual progress > is generally > associated with 53 the tree growing upon the mountain. 35 is the > sun rising > over the Earth, a process which is quick and decisive. The first > line says > nothing about any obstruction to that progress, only that if you > feel turned > back, stay calm and keep going. It is the first stage of the rising sun, > things are initiated but there has not yet been any response or > support. That > is not resistance, just that it takes time to establish a > position and get > support to that position. Seeing the lack of immediate success as a > contradiction to a hexagram you term gradual progress leaves open the > question of why would things be gradual if they had such > immediate response > and support without doubt? > An oracle can always be interpreted as the answer to some other > question as well, the tough part is deciding when it is that we need that > other answer and when are we just being so impatient that we move > on to the > next option. > Frank > > > ===== > To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org > from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. > > ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 01 Oct 2000 17:52:35 +0100 From: Michael Lutzeier Subject: Re: HEX8: changing lines Hello Lise, Just found your website (again) on sabian symbols in relation to the Hx's. hello Frank Could not find your book on amazon,though. Would be pleased to find out more on this subject. (Where do sabian symbols origins lie?) If there's any further books too, please recommend books or links . Thanks. De groeten Regards Michael ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 1 Oct 2000 10:41:33 -0700 (PDT) From: diane haldane Subject: Re: HEX8: Projections hi jeff, by projective you mean the I just has the meaning we give to it? do you consider this good,bad,or indifferent? i'd love to hear more about how you use the I ching... as for me,it constantly frustrates me,but i also know that something is there because it's very uncanny! diane __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos - 35mm Quality Prints, Now Get 15 Free! http://photos.yahoo.com/ ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 1 Oct 2000 21:39:56 +0200 From: "LiSe" Subject: RE: RE: HEX8: changing lines I like your way of thinking. Personally I have no problems with it, because I don't think the Yi decides about good or bad, your own actions do. He only warns, gives advice, or shows things. LiSe I Ching, Book of the Moon www.aheyboer.com webmaster@aheyboer.com - -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- Van: owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org [mailto:owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org]Namens yulong@mindspring.com Verzonden: zaterdag 30 september 2000 19:54 Aan: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Onderwerp: Re: RE: HEX8: changing lines Donna, >From my some what myopic perspective if the base hexagram says everything is going well (hexagram 35 is gradual progress) reading line one which says progress is stopped seems to be a contradiction. I think what I'm asking is, without at all intending to be rude, "So what?" So what that it seems to be a contradiction? Isn't life full of contradictions? It seems to me that the truly curious thing would be to find in a book that has survived as long as the Yi Jing, a situation in which such contradictions were absent. Just a thought, really, that you managed to pique with your earlier post. Ken ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 1 Oct 2000 21:44:01 +0200 From: "LiSe" Subject: RE: HEX8: Re: hex 11 Well - I know my own Dutch website where I combine astrology with the Yi, but I have no idea if that is the one. LiSe I Ching, Book of the Moon www.aheyboer.com webmaster@aheyboer.com - -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- Van: owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org [mailto:owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org]Namens Michael Lutzeier Verzonden: zondag 1 oktober 2000 13:04 Aan: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Onderwerp: Re: HEX8: Re: hex 11 Hi Frank, I am very curious about your work connecting the zodiac with the Hx's. Can one still find it, somewhere, what is the title of the book or the website? I remember a dutch website by ? working on similiar subject. All the best Michael ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 2 Oct 2000 01:08:47 EDT From: FKegan@aol.com Subject: HEX8: Sabian Symbols Hi Michael, I haven't checked if it is still with them. The Aries Press is now run out of upstate New York, I have their local phone number and address. The Sabian Symbols are the creation of Marc Jones, his books on them are published and there are a number of current books based on the poetry of some of his symbols by Lynda Hill and others by current Sabian Students ( http://www.sabian.org/). The correspondence of the zodiac to the lines of the Yi is my own insight. Frank ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ End of hexagram-8-digest V1 #177 ******************************** From owner-hexagram-8-digest@apocalypse.org Wed Oct 4 21:01:11 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id VAA07995 for hexagram-8-digest-outgoing; Wed, 4 Oct 2000 21:01:11 -0400 Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2000 21:01:11 -0400 Message-Id: <200010050101.VAA07995@apocalypse.org> X-Authentication-Warning: apocalypse.org: majordom set sender to owner-hexagram-8-digest@apocalypse.org using -f From: owner-hexagram-8-digest@apocalypse.org (hexagram-8-digest) To: hexagram-8-digest@apocalypse.org Subject: hexagram-8-digest V1 #178 Reply-To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Sender: owner-hexagram-8-digest@apocalypse.org Errors-To: owner-hexagram-8-digest@apocalypse.org Precedence: bulk hexagram-8-digest Wednesday, October 4 2000 Volume 01 : Number 178 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 2 Oct 2000 01:16:05 EDT From: FKegan@aol.com Subject: HEX8: hexagram 35 Hi Donna, Thanks for the appreciation. The basic image of 35 is simply the rising sun, which progresses day from night real quick, but again as you note, there are no great results or even support from that. It is the light that is progressing rapidly, everything else takes its own sweet time. The 8 of wands (at least in Pamela C. Smith's painting) are on their way down, but still flying through the air, a very good equivalent to the rising sun. The conclusion this has to the failure "will then be slammed to a screeching halt." seems a bit harsh or at least impatient. Things are up in the air but flying, what happens next is a matter of further interactions. And again, nothing about the first line of 35 says failure, only that the lack of immediate response or support is to be taken calmly and without so much anxiety. Perhaps, this is all beating a dead horse, but as I would say, if its dead it won't hurt it much. Frank ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 2 Oct 2000 01:21:24 EDT From: FKegan@aol.com Subject: HEX8: Yi Astrology correspondence Hi Michael, I am again working on my manuscript, actually in Email with a Flemish astrologer. It doesn't now exist anywhere outside my computer. It was published on the web for a while but not any more. The insight starts simply with the correspondence of 1 cancer to the first line of hexagram 3, and on around with 1 Aries to the first line of hex 48 and then on to 62 where the 6th line is 30 Gemini. The rest is based in Pythagorean patterns, basically those of the faces of the dice cube for the lines one to six. And then the poetry of the Sabian Symbols. The rest is just commentary. All the Best Frank ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 2 Oct 2000 08:37:27 -0400 From: jeffrey e zweig Subject: Re: HEX8: Projections Dear Diane, I feel that the I is not a seperate entiity removed from the rest of the world. It's intimately connected to us as is everything else. Therefore, when we use the I, we are in effect using ourselves. It's hard putting it into words, but I hope this helps. Sure, we've all had great experiences with the I, just as we've had great experiences with ourselves. Jeff Nothing ever becomes real till it is experienced -- even a proverb is no proverb till your life has illustrated it. -- John Keats ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 2 Oct 2000 17:29:21 -0500 From: "r2d2" Subject: RE: HEX8: Yi Astrology correspondence Hi Frank, I am quite a beginner in the I Ching but have been very interested in finding a correlation between it and astrology / Zodiac either Helio or Geo . Also active in using the Pythagorean Square of 9 and Hexagon Chart . Can the I Ching be used with such precision aside from the philosophical side about oracles . I recently downloaded a German software on trial for 30 days Astrology of the I Ching by ? Norbert but have not installed it till I know a bit more what to look for. I would appreciate a brief explanation of what Sabian Symbols are. Regards, Serge. - -----Original Message----- From: owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org [mailto:owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org] On Behalf Of FKegan@aol.com Sent: Monday, 2 October 2000 0:21 To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Subject: HEX8: Yi Astrology correspondence Hi Michael, I am again working on my manuscript, actually in Email with a Flemish astrologer. It doesn't now exist anywhere outside my computer. It was published on the web for a while but not any more. The insight starts simply with the correspondence of 1 cancer to the first line of hexagram 3, and on around with 1 Aries to the first line of hex 48 and then on to 62 where the 6th line is 30 Gemini. The rest is based in Pythagorean patterns, basically those of the faces of the dice cube for the lines one to six. And then the poetry of the Sabian Symbols. The rest is just commentary. All the Best Frank ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 2 Oct 2000 13:49:51 EDT From: FKegan@aol.com Subject: Re: HEX8: Yi Astrology correspondence Hi Serge, The Sabian Symbols are imaginative images associated with each degree of the Zodiac. They were developed in 1923 by the famous astrologer Marc E. Jones. From there everything is a matter of opinion and debate. In terms of general correspondence, I would suggest that the key insight is that statement in Euclid that all circles are similar. Thus anything that can be symbolized as a cycle or patterned as a circle can be related one to another. How exact or how detailed the correspondence is a matter of personal effort. Mathematics is precise and detailed, reality is more fuzzy and inexact. There is always the central doubt in any correspondence -- Is this a real relationship of the Essence of these systems or just my personal pattern? It is possible to do any work with the Yi as exactly as you wish, the Yi and the Zodiac are symbolisms that can be related to cycles, although the Zodiac is purely a geometrical circle based concept and the Yi is fundamentally organized as a rectangle of 6 sets of 10 plus 4. 6 sets of 10 hexagrams is also 360 lines so the correspondence to the circle can be simply established. Again, everything beyond that is a matter of personal choice. I do not know anything of the German software you mention, however, I assume it could be a useful starting point for your own investigations. Best of luck in your work! Frank ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 2 Oct 2000 13:58:49 EDT From: FKegan@aol.com Subject: Re: HEX8: Yi Astrology correspondence Hi Serge, The Sabian Symbols are imaginative images associated with each degree of the Zodiac. They were developed in 1923 by the famous astrologer Marc E. Jones. From there everything is a matter of opinion and debate. In terms of general correspondence, I would suggest that the key insight is that statement in Euclid that all circles are similar. Thus anything that can be symbolized as a cycle or patterned as a circle can be related one to another. How exact or how detailed the correspondence is a matter of personal effort. Mathematics is precise and detailed, reality is more fuzzy and inexact. There is always the central doubt in any correspondence -- Is this a real relationship of the Essence of these systems or just my personal pattern? It is possible to do any work with the Yi as exactly as you wish, the Yi and the Zodiac are symbolisms that can be related to cycles, although the Zodiac is purely a geometrical circle based concept and the Yi is fundamentally organized as a rectangle of 6 sets of 10 plus 4. 6 sets of 10 hexagrams is also 360 lines so the correspondence to the circle can be simply established. Again, everything beyond that is a matter of personal choice. I do not know anything of the German software you mention, however, I assume it could be a useful starting point for your own investigations. Best of luck in your work! Frank ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 2 Oct 2000 21:17:23 +0200 From: "LiSe" Subject: RE: HEX8: changing lines-Sabian Hallo Michael, The Sabian Society has a beautiful website at www.sabian.org With material on Marc Edmund Jones (the founder), the Sabian Symbols, a database with 30.000 nativities. And more. In 1924 Marc Jones took Elsie Wheeler, who was a medium specialized in seeing things as images, to a park in Balboa. He had prepared 360 cards with the zodiacal degrees on them. Shuffling them all the time, he handed them one by one to Elsie, and she described what she saw. He wrote it down on the card. In one day they made all 360 images. In 'The Sabian Symbols' by Diana Roche all these original cards are printed. Usually I am not fond of clearsightedness, because there are innumerable worthless things done with it. But this proved to be genuine. Frank Kegan has a different way of combining them with the hexagrams, but the basic idea is the same, as far as I could see in his description. Some combinations are like this: 47.2 One is oppressed while at meat and drink = a group of people who have overeaten .. but many others are difficult to find out. Since I translate from the Chinese myself though, there are only few problematic ones left. In the Chinese one finds many meanings which are not, or only very time-determined, present in most translations. I am using the Sabians together with the Yi since 1978 or so. In the beginning, with Wilhelm as my only Yi, it was often a riddle, but also in many instances it gave the meaning which I could not find in Wilhelm. I have a complete (printable) list on my website of all the Symbols in their original formulation, and another one in combination with the Hx. Most books about them changed them to fit their own ideas, and I think you cannot do that with symbols. Then you turn them into pictures. LiSe I Ching, Book of the Moon www.aheyboer.com webmaster@aheyboer.com - -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- Van: owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org [mailto:owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org]Namens Michael Lutzeier Verzonden: zondag 1 oktober 2000 18:53 Aan: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Onderwerp: Re: HEX8: changing lines Hello Lise, Just found your website (again) on sabian symbols in relation to the Hx's. hello Frank Could not find your book on amazon,though. Would be pleased to find out more on this subject. (Where do sabian symbols origins lie?) If there's any further books too, please recommend books or links . Thanks. De groeten Regards Michael ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 2 Oct 2000 21:17:21 +0200 From: "LiSe" Subject: RE: HEX8: changing lines I think this an excellent way of consulting the Yi. I don't think its (his?) purpose is to tell anybody what to do, but rather to make your own decisions. Well, you do. And your English is fine. I did the consulting always like you do, but only partially, line by line and all lines. But this opens new perspectives. LiSe I Ching, Book of the Moon www.aheyboer.com webmaster@aheyboer.com - -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- Van: owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org [mailto:owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org]Namens Marcus Braga Verzonden: zaterdag 30 september 2000 15:09 Aan: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Onderwerp: Re: HEX8: changing lines Hi, everybody! After 15 years listening to my inner Master, I learned that the changing lines, also may be interpreted as other ways to get a different future. For example: If I got the hexagram 1 (Criative) with three changing lines (1, 3 and 5), I can understand that I have seven ways to follow: 1) If I consider and obey only the advise of the first line, it leads me to the hexagram 44; 2) Otherwise, If I only consider (and obey) the advice of the second changing line (the third), the situation will leads me to the hexagram 10; 3) If I prefer to listen (and obey) the advise for the third changing line (line 5), now it will leads me to the hexagram 14; 4) But, if I prefer to act considering the advices of the lines 1 and 3, then the situation wiil changes to the hexagram 6! 5) If I decide to hear the advices of the lines 1 and 5, now the situation will leads me to the hexagram 50; 6) If I consider the lines 3 and 5, I will get the hexagram 38; 7) Finally, if I consider all the changing lines, it leads me to the hexagram 64. Then, I asked to myself what future do I prefer? I believe that life has so many ways to follow. So, interpreting that all the lines will always change and the situation will result in only a future is a big restriction. If you think this way, you are losing all the possibilities of choice in your destiny. The I Ching is a wise book. I would like to know the opnion of the others... (Forgive me for my bad english.) Marcus Braga Ultreya y Suseya! ("Forward and Upward!" in the language of Pilgrims...) ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 2 Oct 2000 21:17:22 +0200 From: "LiSe" Subject: RE: HEX8: Re: specific oracle of hex 35 Happens so often that I usually do not ask very specific anymore. Something like 'he knows better than I what I need to know'. But you have to stop thinking or expecting to get the real valuable answers. When I want an answer on a specific question, I also try to listen without any ideas of my own. LiSe I Ching, Book of the Moon www.aheyboer.com webmaster@aheyboer.com - -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- Van: owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org [mailto:owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org]Namens Hilary Barrett Verzonden: maandag 31 juli 2000 1:29 Aan: hexagram-8 Onderwerp: HEX8: Re: specific oracle of hex 35 . But - haven't you ever found that the I Ching was in fact talking about something more important than what you'd asked about? (Who else has had this experience?) It's happened to me just once, I think. ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 2 Oct 2000 21:17:21 +0200 From: "LiSe" Subject: HEX8: Time in the Yi Time is usually seen as past, present and future, but is time in the Yi not primarily ‘different’ time? So a first hexagram is a different time than a second hexagram. Not earlier or later, although that might be, but in the first place other possibilities, other feelings, etc. LiSe I Ching, Book of the Moon www.aheyboer.com webmaster@aheyboer.com ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 2 Oct 2000 17:20:35 EDT From: FKegan@aol.com Subject: Re: HEX8: changing lines-Sabian Hi LiSe, The imagery of the Sabian Symbols has been a matter of differing opinions. I find the version written as shorthand by Marc and then published as the book Sabian Symbols in Astrology are not nearly as useful as the longer version which only exists as mimeo lessons since they weren't to Marc's liking and so he avoided them. The poetry of the Symbols, like that of the Chinese text of the Yi are an attempt to describe the underlying process in terms more accessible to the folks of some milieu. I find that it is only when several sets of corresponding symbols can be related to their underlying geometry that the process comes through and the poetry (as well as its limitations) stands out. Using the Rudhyar version of the Sabian Symbols (An Astrological Mandala) and Wilhelm line judgments brought forth the intriguing note that what was described "humiliation" "misfortune" and "disaster" in the Wilhelm corresponded to comments of great new opportunities and personal triumphs of self-expression in the New Age Rudhyar. Then it sunk in that the ancient commentary was done for Imperial bureaucrats who avoided personal responsibility like the plague and found the notion of having the results clearly bear their fingerprints to be a terrible disaster. My familiarity with the Chinese text is limited to the translation manuscript I worked on with Gia-Fu Feng in the summer of 1974 (and finally got copyrighted last year), which shows similar play in its meanings as between the various versions of the Sabian Symbols. It is very difficult to move from poetry to underlying process, the words easily distract and one's assumptions and context are forever bedeviling the effort. However, that is my bias, I find in plane geometry the essence of metaphysics, and thus taking various techniques to their underlying Euclidean patterns makes the poetry easier to understand and new commentary simpler to express. Frank ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Oct 2000 02:15:17 +0200 From: "Robert Matusan - Boyler" Subject: Re: HEX8: changing lines Hi LiSe and all, > I think this an excellent way of consulting the Yi. I don't think its (his?) > purpose is to tell anybody what to do, but rather to make your own > decisions. Well, you do. > And your English is fine. > I did the consulting always like you do, but only partially, line by line > and all lines. But this opens new perspectives. > > LiSe > I Ching, Book of the Moon > www.aheyboer.com > webmaster@aheyboer.com Once, when I was much younger, two friends of mine arguing bitterly about "Yijing" in my presence, one defending role of "Yijing" in human life, and the other attacking it. Although I learned by then not to engage in such fruitless debates, when there is no chance to conciliate such a firm and different opinions, I couldn't stand not to tell them: "Who knows, maybe behind the book there is an separate and autonomous intelligence, which is using its followers for some different (its own) purpose, manipulating with their emotions, way of thinking, decisions, and of course, everything else that can evolve from human actions." (In fact in western occultism supposedly there really is an intelligence responsible for secrets of "Yijing") Then they persuaded me to ask "Yijing" the question. I was telling them that such a question has no sense because if it's a separate and autonomous intelligence which is manipulating humans, it will not admit it, of course. I was suggesting them to ask a key question which would inevitable lead to truth (There is a puzzle about two gates, and two gatekeepers. Each gatekeeper stand in front his gate. One gate leads us to freedom and life, and the other to death. One of gatekeepers is always lying, and the other one always speaks the truth. We don't know who is who. We can ask only one of them only one question, and from received answer we can find the way out.). Although we couldn't think of the right question, they persuaded me to ask the normal question in normal way. I reluctantly did it, and answer was gua 59 with changing line at third place. In Wilhelm version it states: "He dissolves his self. No remorse." It was pretty clear and satisfying answer to both of my friends. But the resultant gua was gua 57, and I decided (besides normal traditional procedure) to read the same line in this gua which stated: "Repeated penetration. Humiliation." Few hours later my friends again argued about the same thing, and I was telling them this is what "Yijing" said by "Repeated penetration. Humiliation." And they both realized it. Although it was an interesting "experiment" (seen from my standpoint) it was almost without value because we couldn't think of the key question from the puzzle. In fact I still can't think of it :o). Anybody? :o) Wansui! Boyler ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 03 Oct 2000 03:15:46 +0100 From: Ian J Greely Subject: Re: HEX8: changing lines The question in the story is "which gate would the other gatekeeper tell me to use if I want to live. And the answer is always the gate to death..." Interesting idea though. To formulate a question in such a way as to find out the intent of the intelligence behind the IChing. >From my experience though it's a rather more difficult concept. Not only does the book not always tell the "truth" it has a sense of humor and a sense of it's own, and our, ridiculousness... In Christianity the presence of these "aids" is recognized but the capricious nature of the entities behind them is said to negate use. For myself whilst I like to use the book as an oracle it's thetheir symmetry of thought in the main hex and the rigidity of right and wrong (so absent in our modern world) that are the main attraction. It may not be *right* but it gives me a grid by which I can at least chart. regards, Ian On Tue, 3 Oct 2000 02:15:17 +0200, you wrote: >Hi LiSe and all, > >> I think this an excellent way of consulting the Yi. I don't think its >(his?) >> purpose is to tell anybody what to do, but rather to make your own >> decisions. Well, you do. >> And your English is fine. >> I did the consulting always like you do, but only partially, line by line >> and all lines. But this opens new perspectives. >> >> LiSe >> I Ching, Book of the Moon >> www.aheyboer.com >> webmaster@aheyboer.com > >Once, when I was much younger, two friends of mine arguing bitterly about >"Yijing" in my presence, one defending role of "Yijing" in human life, and >the other attacking it. Although I learned by then not to engage in such >fruitless debates, when there is no chance to conciliate such a firm and >different opinions, I couldn't stand not to tell them: "Who knows, maybe >behind the book there is an separate and autonomous intelligence, which is >using its followers for some different (its own) purpose, manipulating with >their emotions, way of thinking, decisions, and of course, everything else >that can evolve from human actions." (In fact in western occultism >supposedly there really is an intelligence responsible for secrets of >"Yijing") Then they persuaded me to ask "Yijing" the question. I was telling >them that such a question has no sense because if it's a separate and >autonomous intelligence which is manipulating humans, it will not admit it, >of course. I was suggesting them to ask a key question which would >inevitable lead to truth (There is a puzzle about two gates, and two >gatekeepers. Each gatekeeper stand in front his gate. One gate leads us to >freedom and life, and the other to death. One of gatekeepers is always >lying, and the other one always speaks the truth. We don't know who is who. >We can ask only one of them only one question, and from received answer we >can find the way out.). Although we couldn't think of the right question, >they persuaded me to ask the normal question in normal way. I reluctantly >did it, and answer was gua 59 with changing line at third place. In Wilhelm >version it states: "He dissolves his self. No remorse." It was pretty clear >and satisfying answer to both of my friends. But the resultant gua was gua >57, and I decided (besides normal traditional procedure) to read the same >line in this gua which stated: "Repeated penetration. Humiliation." Few >hours later my friends again argued about the same thing, and I was telling >them this is what "Yijing" said by "Repeated penetration. Humiliation." And >they both realized it. > >Although it was an interesting "experiment" (seen from my standpoint) it was >almost without value because we couldn't think of the key question from the >puzzle. In fact I still can't think of it :o). Anybody? :o) > >Wansui! >Boyler > > > > > >===== >To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org >from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 03 Oct 2000 13:59:32 -0400 From: yulong@mindspring.com Subject: Re: HEX8: Time in the Yi This is what I was trying to get at, at least part of what I was trying to get at, by asking about the appearance of contradictions? What is contradicting what? or Who is contradicting whom? Ken > Time is usually seen as past, present and future, but is time in the Yi not primarily ‘different’ time? So a first hexagram is a different time than a second hexagram. Not earlier or later, although that might be, but in the first place other possibilities, other feelings, etc. LiSe I Ching, Book of the Moon www.aheyboer.com webmaster@aheyboer.com ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 03 Oct 2000 21:00:06 +0100 From: Michael Lutzeier Subject: Re: HEX8: Time in the Yi Hello LiSe, hello Robert , hi all! Thank you (heel erg bedankt) for your informations on the origin of sabian symbols. I downloaded your list and will try them out with my record and my future oracles. LiSe wrote: > Time is usually seen as past, present and future, but is time in the Yi not > primarily ëdifferentí time? So a first hexagram is a different time than a > second hexagram. Not earlier or later, although that might be, but in the > first place other possibilities, other feelings, etc. > I can not really understand this, because I always thought (still do) the YiJing is relying on "time" as a concept of constant flow and therefore change !? As a mean to see everything from its beginning stadium (corn, semen) "sprouting" to its final development (a tree, to remain in the picture). Since every lifeform is under the influence of past, present and future, wasn't the YiJing developed to find the formulas of change in this irreversable string of time? The origins seem to lie in astronomic and geomantic investigation. In my opinion every time can bear different emotions and sure different possibilities, that is corresponding to the different places of the lines. I personally use the first Hx and its lines more than the second, and i quit from seeing the second as lying in the future. But I do see the first as sort of a "base",so connecting it with the present or near past. I also see the transitional or "via"-Hx lines happening, both the one "coming in" and the line "moving on", as it was explained recently (by ?). One can also see the very present by changing the lines in the nucleusHx and then reading the lines of the resulting Hx. A. Olivier calls this "focus" and I think it works. The one thing I'm not so sure about and often tends too confuse me is the the topic R. Boyler brought up: reading the resulting Hx's line as an outcome! Richard Wilhelm strongly denies reading them... Can somebody contribute to that? Interpreting line 3 of Hx 59: dissolving oneself in order to follow whatever furthers the work (ca.Jou tsung hwa) means the YiJing is capable of giving everybody the answer he/she needs. And takes no harm by that. And doesn't not show any personality or tries to influence, because its person is dissolved. If it has one... I think this was an excellent answer to quiet your friends, Robert. By the way: Personare in latin means sth like "to sound through". Finding the key question reminds me of douglas adams's machine finding the answer - it was some 2digit-number- but it took some generations to find it and so the question itself got lost somehow, and so they started all over again to find the question ... :-)) all the best michael ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2000 07:23:30 -0700 From: "Donna Fitzgerald" Subject: RE: RE: HEX8: changing lines Ken, life is full of contridictions as well as cognitive dissonance. I'm sure the answer is that the I-Ching is still shrouded in language and thoughts that date from far in the past and a very different culture than 21C high tech Anerica. It's strange that I've never found the tarot to contradict.. Part of what I was hoping to gain by participating in this list was to be able to increase my level of knowledge and understanding about the I-Ching. After reading and studying the tarot for 14 years I understand shades of meaning and when and how to interpret most cards and readings. I quite obviously don't have that level of knowledge about the I-Ching and the structure of a reading which seemed to be hexagram through changing line to new hexagram seemed to be a linear process that didn't always hold true. What I've been hearing people on this list say is that it isn't linear, that sometimes one changing line will take you here, sometimes you read things in reverse, etc, and that was the level of input I had been seeking. Thanks, Donna > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org > [mailto:owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org]On Behalf Of LiSe > Sent: Sunday, October 01, 2000 11:40 AM > To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org > Subject: RE: RE: HEX8: changing lines > > > I like your way of thinking. Personally I have no problems with > it, because > I don't think the Yi decides about good or bad, your own actions > do. He only > warns, gives advice, or shows things. > > LiSe > I Ching, Book of the Moon > www.aheyboer.com > webmaster@aheyboer.com > > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- > Van: owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org > [mailto:owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org]Namens yulong@mindspring.com > Verzonden: zaterdag 30 september 2000 19:54 > Aan: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org > Onderwerp: Re: RE: HEX8: changing lines > > Donna, > > From my some what myopic perspective if the base hexagram says > everything is > going well (hexagram 35 is gradual progress) reading line one which says > progress is stopped seems to be a contradiction. > > I think what I'm asking is, without at all intending > to be rude, "So what?" So what that it seems to > be a contradiction? Isn't life full of contradictions? > It seems to me that the truly curious thing would > be to find in a book that has survived as long > as the Yi Jing, a situation in which such > contradictions were absent. > > Just a thought, really, that you managed to > pique with your earlier post. > > Ken > > > ===== > To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org > from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. > > > > ===== > To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org > from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. > > ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2000 08:03:55 -0700 From: "Donna Fitzgerald" Subject: HEX8: interpreting number 7 the army Dear list, Of all the hexagrams number 7 baffles me for how to apply it to a personal situation. I'd love to hear what others do with it when they receive it in a ready. Thanks, Donna ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2000 12:14:03 -0400 From: "Aquel" Subject: Re: HEX8: interpreting number 7 the army > Dear list, > > Of all the hexagrams number 7 baffles me for how to apply it to a personal > situation. I'd love to hear what others do with it when they receive it in > a ready. > > Thanks, > > Donna > Hi Donna, If you allow me, I've been connecting some dots on your comments and questions and you had mentioned, among other things, you number of years of experience in the Tarot. Maybe I am incorrect in my assumption that that same experience is biasing your judgement and attitude towards the Yi and make you look at it as a somewhat similar tool for divination/advise purposes. If am incorrect, please disregard this note. However, if there is some truth in my assumption, I can tell you from experience that the two systems are very different and require a completely different approach when it comes to interpreting answers. In the Tarot you have a set of 78 cards with a more or less fix set of attributes related to each card, the interpretation of which, in the combination of the cards of any given reading, will give you the sought after answer. In the I Ching, obviously, you have a set of 64 Hexagrams with also a set of more or less fixed attributes, if taken individualy, but, it doesn't stop there. You must also consider quite a few other variables. For example, in the I Ching you have a total of 384 individual lines, that in the context of an "asked question/answer given" have the weight, in my humble opinion, of any card of the Tarot. This alone, and the potential of getting any one of those lines (be it none, one or more), in any given cast of an Hexagram, gives you a richness of data that is, again IMHO, impossible to approach in the same way the Tarot is. I could go on and on listing other variables but, I think that for the point am trying to make, this is enough. This is why, I believe, the consultation of the I Ching is more geared to individual use and serious study as opposed to the Tarot, which I personally see as a more "popular" tool for divination and its marketability. Now, am not debating and/or comparing here the accuracy of any of these systems or the level of difficulty needed for their interpretation. I could have saved you the pain of boring you with all of the above by just saying: It is impossible to interpret ANY Hexagram outside the context of an specific question or situation. Furthermore, since "a personal situation" is such a broad definition, nobody but yourself can honestly provide you with an answer to your question. Of course, I (or anyone, for that matter) can give you MY interpretation of the image of the hexagram, but, it would be completely hollow for your purposes. This, of course, is my very subjective opinion. However, I hope you find some help in it. Cheers! Luis Andrade _ _ /_\ __ _ _ _ ___| | //_\\ / _` | | | |/ _ \ | / _ \ (_| | |_| | __/ | \_/ \_/\__, |\__,_|\___|_| |_| ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 04 Oct 2000 10:15:43 -0600 From: bradford Subject: Re: HEX8: interpreting number 7 the army Donna- The modern associations we have for [standing] armies really get in the way of understanding this Gua. It might help to use the term Militia or Reserves instead, or to think of the Swiss Army, complete with the Swiss policy of neutrality. Then you're looking at the health of the population as its chief strength, and personally, at the readiness of your reserves to meet the situation's exigencies. B > Of all the hexagrams number 7 baffles me for how to apply it to a personal > situation. I'd love to hear what others do with it when they receive it in > a reading. ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Aug 2000 21:31:51 +0100 From: "Hilary Barrett" Subject: HEX8: Re interpreting number 7 Dear Donna, In your library of I Ching books, do you have Alfred Huang's 'complete I Ching'? (It's quite new, and very good.) He calls Hexagram 7 'Multitude', and says: 'In ancient China, there was no special group of people maintained as an army, nor a specific class called soldiers. At any time, peasants and soldiers were combined into one group. In ordinary times, peasants worked in the fields, and in the slack farming season they were given military training. Only during wartime were they called to defend their country. The ancients thought that keeping an army would cause trouble.' So the constituent trigrams indicate 'that military strength should not be stored in the army but in the multitude of people, as water is stored in the earth.' Personally, I've rarely received this one - when I have, I think it's been about strength and preparedness rather than aggression. And it's also about your capacity to lead. It really depends - as with any hexagram - on what question it's answering. All best wishes, Hilary ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2000 17:58:55 -0700 From: "Bobby & Sarah" Subject: Re: HEX8: interpreting number 7 the army Hello Luis, I just read your input to Donna and wanted to compliment you or your analysis or interpretation. I actually agree strongly with you. I agree that it is in the eye of the user using the I-Ching to be able to fully interpret their answer and to be able to understand and apply it to their situation...Actually not everyone will always preceive the answer the same. Sarah - ----- Original Message ----- From: Aquel To: Sent: Wednesday, October 04, 2000 9:14 AM Subject: Re: HEX8: interpreting number 7 the army > > Dear list, > > > > Of all the hexagrams number 7 baffles me for how to apply it to a personal > > situation. I'd love to hear what others do with it when they receive it in > > a ready. > > > > Thanks, > > > > Donna > > > > Hi Donna, > > If you allow me, I've been connecting some dots on your comments and > questions and you had mentioned, among other things, you number of > years of experience in the Tarot. Maybe I am incorrect in my > assumption that that same experience is biasing your judgement and > attitude towards the Yi and make you look at it as a somewhat similar > tool for divination/advise purposes. If am incorrect, please > disregard this note. > > However, if there is some truth in my assumption, I can tell you from > experience that the two systems are very different and require a > completely different approach when it comes to interpreting answers. > > In the Tarot you have a set of 78 cards with a more or less fix set > of attributes related to each card, the interpretation of which, in > the combination of the cards of any given reading, will give you the > sought after answer. > > In the I Ching, obviously, you have a set of 64 Hexagrams with also a > set of more or less fixed attributes, if taken individualy, but, it > doesn't stop there. You must also consider quite a few other > variables. For example, in the I Ching you have a total of 384 > individual lines, that in the context of an "asked question/answer > given" have the weight, in my humble opinion, of any card of the > Tarot. This alone, and the potential of getting any one of those > lines (be it none, one or more), in any given cast of an Hexagram, > gives you a richness of data that is, again IMHO, impossible to > approach in the same way the Tarot is. I could go on and on listing > other variables but, I think that for the point am trying to make, > this is enough. > > This is why, I believe, the consultation of the I Ching is more > geared to individual use and serious study as opposed to the Tarot, > which I personally see as a more "popular" tool for divination and > its marketability. Now, am not debating and/or comparing here the > accuracy of any of these systems or the level of difficulty needed > for their interpretation. > > I could have saved you the pain of boring you with all of the above > by just saying: > > It is impossible to interpret ANY Hexagram outside the context of an > specific question or situation. Furthermore, since "a personal > situation" is such a broad definition, nobody but yourself can > honestly provide you with an answer to your question. Of course, I > (or anyone, for that matter) can give you MY interpretation of the > image of the hexagram, but, it would be completely hollow for your > purposes. > > This, of course, is my very subjective opinion. However, I hope you > find some help in it. > > Cheers! > > Luis Andrade > > > _ _ > /_\ __ _ _ _ ___| | > file://_\\ / _` | | | |/ _ \ | > / _ \ (_| | |_| | __/ | > \_/ \_/\__, |\__,_|\___|_| > |_| > > > ===== > To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org > from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. > ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ End of hexagram-8-digest V1 #178 ******************************** From owner-hexagram-8-digest@apocalypse.org Fri Oct 6 11:35:46 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA00994 for hexagram-8-digest-outgoing; Fri, 6 Oct 2000 11:35:46 -0400 Date: Fri, 6 Oct 2000 11:35:46 -0400 Message-Id: <200010061535.LAA00994@apocalypse.org> X-Authentication-Warning: apocalypse.org: majordom set sender to owner-hexagram-8-digest@apocalypse.org using -f From: owner-hexagram-8-digest@apocalypse.org (hexagram-8-digest) To: hexagram-8-digest@apocalypse.org Subject: hexagram-8-digest V1 #179 Reply-To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Sender: owner-hexagram-8-digest@apocalypse.org Errors-To: owner-hexagram-8-digest@apocalypse.org Precedence: bulk hexagram-8-digest Friday, October 6 2000 Volume 01 : Number 179 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2000 19:11:12 -0700 From: "Donna Fitzgerald" Subject: RE: HEX8: Re interpreting number 7 Hilary, I don't have the book you mentioned in my collection, though I will definitely pick it up (what's one more added to the 10 I already own :-). I've always had the feeling that the reason I get this one so often is that so much of my work revolves around my role as leader, within my projects and within my professional community, but some nuance has always escaped me. 'that military strength should not be stored in the army but in the multitude of people, as water is stored in the earth.' I love that line since it can be rewritten to say "the strength of the organization resides not in the company itself but in it's employees" I could also make some interesting parallels with number 7 being an even closer fit with a community of practice which is a group of people who come together voluntarily for a purpose. Thanks for your on-target input as always Hilary. Donna > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org > [mailto:owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org]On Behalf Of Hilary Barrett > Sent: Thursday, August 03, 2000 12:32 PM > To: hexagram-8 > Subject: HEX8: Re interpreting number 7 > > > Dear Donna, > In your library of I Ching books, do you have Alfred Huang's 'complete I > Ching'? (It's quite new, and very good.) He calls Hexagram 7 'Multitude', > and says: > 'In ancient China, there was no special group of people maintained as an > army, nor a specific class called soldiers. At any time, peasants and > soldiers were combined into one group. In ordinary times, > peasants worked in > the fields, and in the slack farming season they were given military > training. Only during wartime were they called to defend their > country. The > ancients thought that keeping an army would cause trouble.' So the > constituent trigrams indicate 'that military strength should not be stored > in the army but in the multitude of people, as water is stored in the > earth.' > Personally, I've rarely received this one - when I have, I think it's been > about > strength and preparedness rather than aggression. And it's also > about your capacity to lead. It really depends - as with any hexagram - on > what question it's answering. > All best wishes, > Hilary > > > > > ===== > To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org > from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. > > ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Oct 2000 08:28:52 +0200 From: "LiSe" Subject: HEX8: Fw: interpreting number 7 the army It seems that Outlook express sent this to Donna personally instead of the list, so I send it again. LiSe Book of the moon www.aheyboer.com webmaster@aheyboer.com - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Postmaster AHeyboer" To: "Donna Fitzgerald" Sent: Wednesday, October 04, 2000 8:07 PM Subject: Re: interpreting number 7 the army > Hex.7 is not only an army but also 'organizing', especially talents and > assets. The character Shi means army, teacher, to teach, master, tutor, a > model or example, to pattern of model after another, and a specialist > (especially music, painting, divining or medicine). For becoming a > specialist, one has to organize knowledge and specialize like the divisions > of an army, one has to be a good leader of one's own legion, which consists > of knowledge, intelligence, talent and so on. > Bottom line: act with discipline, or organize with structure. > Line 2: live in the center of what you do or make (being 'one' with a > business or whatever is the best way of making it great) > Line 3: Be critical of what you use or learn etc., like outdated > information, bad material. > Line 4: A (or your) army needs relaxation too. Discipline cannot endure > without pause, make an balance. > Line 5: Do not act rigid, take chances when they appear, do not depend too > much on rules, stay versatile. > Top line: the things you accomplish have the same value you have. If you are > great, you can accomplish great things, if you are small, you achieve only > small things. > > Luis Andrade was right when he said one cannot interpretate an answer for > someone else. But if you know all the things a hexagram stands for, you can > choose what bears reference to your question. > It is not that different from Tarot: when you see the whole image, your > intuition reacts to it. > > LiSe > Book of the moon > www.aheyboer.com > webmaster@aheyboer.com > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Donna Fitzgerald" > To: > Sent: Wednesday, October 04, 2000 5:03 PM > Subject: HEX8: interpreting number 7 the army > > > Dear list, > > Of all the hexagrams number 7 baffles me for how to apply it to a personal > situation. I'd love to hear what others do with it when they receive it in > a ready. > > Thanks, > > Donna > > > > ===== > To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org > from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. > > > ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Oct 2000 08:31:07 +0200 From: "LiSe" Subject: Fw: HEX8: Time in the Yi This one was sent by mistake to Michael instead of the list, so I send it again. I will have to check all my mails, if Outlook Express did this often. LiSe Book of the moon www.aheyboer.com webmaster@aheyboer.com - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Postmaster AHeyboer" To: "Michael Lutzeier" Sent: Wednesday, October 04, 2000 8:44 PM Subject: Re: HEX8: Time in the Yi > When the Yi talks about time, he uses a character which means *season*. For farmers, like the Zhou people of King Wen, the most > important *time*. Every year has its seasons, every day too: morning, midday etc. I do not think the Yi is interested in first - > earlier - later - future and such things. If one does something, the *season* is the important thing. Sow when it is the time for > sowing, rest when it is the time for rest. Nature does not think about sowing coming before harvest. She sows when it is the right > time, she harvests ditto. > The Yi tries to make you like nature, living instead of thinking linear. > Living is round, in cycles and seasons. Animals do not know *today and tomorrow*, they only know *now*. To become circular (at least > as much as we moderns can) is the big value the Yi can give you. Your intuition is circular (or uses seasons), it is not linear. > Linear thinking can solve many problems, but the Yi is especially for the problems one cannot solve linear. > > LiSe > Book of the moon > www.aheyboer.com > webmaster@aheyboer.com > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Michael Lutzeier" > To: > Sent: Tuesday, October 03, 2000 10:00 PM > Subject: Re: HEX8: Time in the Yi > > Hello LiSe, hello Robert , hi all! > LiSe wrote: > > Time is usually seen as past, present and future, but is time in the Yi > not > > primarily *different* time? So a first hexagram is a different time than a > > second hexagram. Not earlier or later, although that might be, but in the > > first place other possibilities, other feelings, etc. > > > I can not really understand this, because I always thought (still do) the > YiJing is relying on "time" as a concept of constant flow and therefore > change!? As a mean to see everything from its beginning stadium (corn, > semen) > "sprouting" to its final development (a tree, to remain in the picture). > Since every lifeform is under the influence of past, present and future, > wasn't > the YiJing developed to find the formulas of change in this irreversable > string > of time? The origins seem to lie in astronomic and geomantic investigation. > In my opinion every time can bear different emotions and sure different > possibilities, that is corresponding to the different places of the lines. > > > ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 05 Oct 2000 11:14:18 From: steve@fortstudy.win-uk.net (Steve Moore) Subject: HEX8: I Ching Questionnaire Hi All, Recently I've been helping Stephen Karcher (co-translator with Rudolf Ritsema of the Eranos I Ching, author of "How to Use the I Ching", etc.) in compiling a questionnaire intended to find out more about what sort of people use the I Ching in the West, how they use it, what they feel about it, and so on. Over the next few months this will be posted on various email lists, distributed at conferences and lectures, with journals, and so on (the Questionnaire's already appeared on Ray Langley's I Ching list, so apologies to anyone who's already seen it there). It's a long questionnaire, and all the questions are optional, but we'd very much appreciate seeing answers from anyone who'd care to take the time to fill it in. Please read the introduction below before starting to answer. WHERE TO SEND THE ANSWERS: While I'd be happy to see discussion of the form of the Questionnaire on the list, some of the questions (all of which, as I said, are optional) do ask for private information you may not care to share in public. PLEASE SEND ANSWERS TO THE QUESTIONNAIRE DIRECTLY TO ME, NOT TO THE LIST, at: steve@fortstudy.win-uk.net I'll then forward responses to Stephen Karcher. All responses would be very greatly appreciated. Thanks from both Stephen and myself for your time and interest. All the best, Steve Moore ****************************************************************** Change in the West I Ching User Survey This is an in-depth survey conducted under the auspices of the Scientific-Medical Network by a group of people who use, think about, write about, interpret, teach or study the I Ching (Yijing), usually called Change or the Classic of Change. We would like to know how Change is moving in the west, the sorts of people who use it, how they use it, how they think about what they do and the effect it has on them. All questions are optional, and there's no obligation to answer everything. Answer only those you wish to, at whatever length seems appropriate, and feel free to add your own comments, opinions and insights. If you choose to answer our questions, thank you. Your response is greatly appreciated. A NOTE ON PRIVACY. All responses to this survey will be treated with complete confidentiality. A summary of the results of this survey will be made public, but this will include neither names nor personal details. The survey is neither market research nor a profit-making venture, and no details will be passed to outside businesses or organizations. A. ABOUT YOU 1. Name? 2. Gender? 3. Country and city/town where you live? 4. Age? 5. Sexual preferences? 6. Occupation/Work? 7. Education (formal and alternative)? 8. Are you involved in the arts? If so, please mention your major interests. 9. Are you or were you a follower of an organized religion? If so, please specify. 10. Are you involved in other spiritual practices (e.g, yoga, meditation, etc.)? If so, please specify. 11. Do you speak/read any languages other than English? If so, please list. 12. Have you travelled in other countries? If so, please list. 13. Have you ever been involved in psychotherapies? If so, which? 14. Have you ever had a near-death experience, spiritual crisis or conversion-experience? 15. Do you or have you used psychotropic substances? 16. Is your life: Happy? Troubled? In transition? Are you mourning? Are there great events pending? Other? B. HOW DID YOU LEARN ABOUT THE I CHING? 1. Approximately how long have you used or studied the I Ching? 2. How did you first learn about the I Ching as a divinatory method you could use? 3. What were the circumstances in which you first used the I Ching? 4. What was the impact on you of your first use of the I Ching? 5. What was the question and answer of the most impressive reading you can remember receiving from the I Ching? 6. Did you take classes or did you learn by yourself? 7. Did anyone mentor you in learning to use the I Ching? If so, what was your relationship with that person? 8. What did the I Ching connect with in your own experience? 9. What kind of difficulties did you have understanding the I Ching? 10. What kinds of western (and eastern) thought helped you to understand the I Ching? 11. At this point, what would be helpful to you in furthering your understanding and ability to use the I Ching? C. HOW DO YOU USE THE I CHING? 1. On average, how often do you consult the I Ching? 2. Does the frequency of your use notably vary? If so, can you discern any pattern or significance in these variations? 3. About which area of your life do you most frequently consult the I Ching? Personal Relationships and Conflicts Business Health Spiritual/personal development Creative work Predicting the future Other 4. What is your preferred medium of consulting the I Ching (e.g., stalks, coins, marbles, stick dice, computer program, ba qian)? 5. Do you engage in any ritual procedures as part of using the I Ching? If so, what are they? What do you believe the role of these rituals to be? 6. Do you or have you ever used the I Ching as a regular spiritual practice? If so, how? 7. Which translations or versions of the I Ching do you prefer? 8. Do you use any other texts to help you interpret a reading? If so, please specify. 9. Do you consider using and interpreting the I Ching: Easy Difficult Somewhere in between Other 10. Do you consider the I Ching to be right: All of the time Most of the time Occasionally Rarely 11. Do you prefer to interpret the answer yourself or to have someone else work with you? 12. Have you ever consulted a professional I Ching diviner/interpreter? 13. Do other people know that you consult the I Ching? 14. Do you use the I Ching professionally (consultation, lectures, teaching)? 15. Do you use the I Ching in your creative work? How? 16. Do you use any other form of divination in addition to the I Ching? If so, please specify. 17. Do you use the I Ching more or less frequently than other divinatory tools? 18. If you use other forms of divination, do you consider the I Ching: Better Worse Just different D. WHAT DO YOU FEEL ABOUT THE I CHING? 1. How important is the I Ching to you? 2. In general, how seriously do you take the answers you receive from the I Ching? 3. Do you think the I Ching 'works': Always Usually Sometimes Never 4. What does it, or would it, mean for you to say that the I Ching 'works'? 5. What are you looking for when you consult the I Ching? 6. What/who do you imagine to be answering your questions? 7. Do you have a responsibility to the answers? If so, please describe it. 8. When you are confused about an answer what do you do? 9. What do you think the I Ching was made for? 10. Where do you think the I Ching came from? 11. Who knows you use the I Ching? How do they feel about it? 12. Do others in your circle of friends and relations use the I Ching? 13. What role does the I Ching play in your relational, work, or family life? 14. Do you ever use the I Ching to help or guide in a relationship? 15. Does your use of the I Ching ever cause problems for you in your relationships? 16. Do you feel: That you control the events in your life? That your life is controlled by outside events? Somewhere in between E. HAS THE I CHING CHANGED YOUR LIFE? 1. Has the I Ching affected your life? If so, how? 2. How do you apply the I Ching in your life? 3. Have you been healed through using the I Ching? How? 4. Do you have any experiences in using the I Ching to educate or to heal people? 5. Do you have any experience in using the I Ching to predict future events? Did it work? 6. How can the I Ching help western people? 7. How do you think the I Ching affects the western mind? 8. If you wish, please describe some interesting experience/s you had using the I Ching. F. WHAT ABOUT THE I CHING? 1. What do you feel is the basic effect of the I Ching on you? 2. Do you (choose one or several): Trust the I Ching? Believe the I Ching? Talk with the I Ching? Personify the I Ching? Follow the I Ching? Argue with the I Ching? Love the I Ching? Reverence the I Ching? Worship the I Ching? Honour the I Ching? Live with the I Ching? Keep the I Ching on the shelf for important decisions? 3. Does the I Ching give you specific advice? What happens when you follow this advice? What happens when you don't? 4. Is the I Ching always objective and impartial? 5. Are your feelings for/about the I Ching ever ambivalent? If so, how? 6. Can you overuse or misuse the I Ching? How? 7. Can the I Ching harm you? 8. Can the I Ching be used in an evil way, or for a bad end? If so, how? 9. Have you ever been angry at the I Ching? 10. What do you NOT like about the I Ching? 11. Is there anything missing from the I Ching? 12. Would you choose the I Ching as one of three books to take: To a desert island? On a dangerous journey? In a spiritual retreat? If so, why? G. STUDYING THE I CHING 1. Apart from divination, which other aspects of the I Ching interest you? History of the I Ching? Philosophy of the I Ching? Cosmology of the I Ching? Relation of the I Ching to other Chinese systems (e.g., Taoism, Confucianism)? Relation of the I Ching to western thought and systems? Using the I Ching as a spiritual practice? Other? 2. Do you feel that these other aspects are more or less important than divination? 3. Do you feel that studying these other aspects helps you understand the answers you receive from the I Ching? 4. Have you attended lectures or courses on the I Ching? If so, how did you evaluate them? 4. Do you feel that the I Ching is more: A Chinese system? A universal system? 5. Approximately how many books on the I Ching do you own? F. FINALLY 1. Any further comments or thoughts? Thank you for your response! ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 05 Oct 2000 09:21:31 -0400 From: yulong@mindspring.com Subject: Re: Fw: HEX8: Time in the Yi LiSe, Are you familiar with a little volume of speeches given by Joseph Needham at the Chinese University of Hong Kong in 1981 entitled Science in Traditional China? The last piece in the book is about attitudes related to time. You might find it of interest. Best, Ken hexagram-8@apocalypse.org wrote: > This one was sent by mistake to Michael instead of the list, so I send it again. I will have to check all my mails, if Outlook Express did this often. LiSe Book of the moon www.aheyboer.com webmaster@aheyboer.com - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Postmaster AHeyboer" To: "Michael Lutzeier" Sent: Wednesday, October 04, 2000 8:44 PM Subject: Re: HEX8: Time in the Yi > When the Yi talks about time, he uses a character which means *season*. For farmers, like the Zhou people of King Wen, the most > important *time*. Every year has its seasons, every day too: morning, midday etc. I do not think the Yi is interested in first - > earlier - later - future and such things. If one does something, the *season* is the important thing. Sow when it is the time for > sowing, rest when it is the time for rest. Nature does not think about sowing coming before harvest. She sows when it is the right > time, she harvests ditto. > The Yi tries to make you like nature, living instead of thinking linear. > Living is round, in cycles and seasons. Animals do not know *today and tomorrow*, they only know *now*. To become circular (at least > as much as we moderns can) is the big value the Yi can give you. Your intuition is circular (or uses seasons), it is not linear. > Linear thinking can solve many problems, but the Yi is especially for the problems one cannot solve linear. > > LiSe > Book of the moon > www.aheyboer.com > webmaster@aheyboer.com > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Michael Lutzeier" > To: > Sent: Tuesday, October 03, 2000 10:00 PM > Subject: Re: HEX8: Time in the Yi > > Hello LiSe, hello Robert , hi all! > LiSe wrote: > > Time is usually seen as past, present and future, but is time in the Yi > not > > primarily *different* time? So a first hexagram is a different time than a > > second hexagram. Not earlier or later, although that might be, but in the > > first place other possibilities, other feelings, etc. > > > I can not really understand this, because I always thought (still do) the > YiJing is relying on "time" as a concept of constant flow and therefore > change!? As a mean to see everything from its beginning stadium (corn, > semen) > "sprouting" to its final development (a tree, to remain in the picture). > Since every lifeform is under the influence of past, present and future, > wasn't > the YiJing developed to find the formulas of change in this irreversable > string > of time? The origins seem to lie in astronomic and geomantic investigation. > In my opinion every time can bear different emotions and sure different > possibilities, that is corresponding to the different places of the lines. > > > ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Oct 2000 17:27:05 EDT From: Aglie@aol.com Subject: Re: HEX8: changing lines In a message dated 10/4/00 10:25:27 AM Eastern Daylight Time, dfitz@newgrange.org writes: << After reading and studying the tarot for 14 years I understand shades of meaning and when and how to interpret most cards and readings. I quite obviously don't have that level of knowledge about the I-Ching and the structure of a reading which seemed to be hexagram through changing line to new hexagram seemed to be a linear process that didn't always hold true. What I've been hearing people on this list say is that it isn't linear, that sometimes one changing line will take you here, sometimes you read things in reverse, etc, and that was the level of input I had been seeking. >> I wonder if others who have experience of both Tarot and I Ching would comment on their experiences. I have been studying Chinese philosophy for more than 20 years but have always had trouble getting meaningful answers from the I. Lately I have been studying it more seriously and getting better results. But the Tarot still speaks more clearly and gives fuller answers. And this despite not being particularly enthused by western occultism. What do others find using Tarot and I Ching? ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Oct 2000 10:42:57 +0530 From: "Danny Van den Berghe" Subject: Re: HEX8: interpreting number 7 the army > > Of all the hexagrams number 7 baffles me for how to apply it to a personal > situation. I'd love to hear what others do with it when they receive it in > a ready. > > Thanks, > Hi Donna, As with any hexagram it can mean many things, depending on your question. It is certainly not to do with your capacity to lead as somebody is suggesting, rather it has to do with your capacity to be led by others. The issue of leadership is the theme of the next hexagram, nr 8. Nr 7 is the ordinary soldier, who obeys the orders. It is even more humble than hexagram nr 15 which is very similar to nr 7. So, if you get nr 7 in a reading it may mean you should listen to others in the matter at hand. Moving on your own authority will mean dead, as is indicated in a few of the moving lines. On a more personal level it has to do with your centering, your grounding in the body. Hex 7 has only one yang line in the second position. So it has to do with being present in your second chakra, the navel or hara. In the Eastern martial arts warriors were always taught to be in their hara. If you are fighting from the head, your defeat is certain. So, if you get nr 7 in a reading it may also indicate that you have lost touch with your being, that you are out of center.. All the best, Danny http://www.ping.be/icrea ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 5 Aug 2000 11:38:47 +0100 From: "Hilary Barrett" Subject: HEX8: Re: interpreting number 7 (and 8) Hi Danny and all, Well, at least we agree that hexagrams' meanings depend on the question! I'm the one who mentioned that Hexagram 7 was associated with the capacity to lead. I rather think we have very different views of Hexagram 8 as well, which for me is to do with choosing where you belong. But I'm not the only one who thinks Hexagram 7 is to do with the capacity for leadership (amongst other things, of course). So do Alfred Huang, Richard Wilhelm, Stephen Karcher - and the author of the Commentary on the Judgements (T'uan Chuan), who was presumably looking at the reference to a 'person of noble spirit' in the Judgment itself - or the actual Name of the hexagram, which has the connotations of model, master, leader, teacher. So I think that saying it's 'certainly not to do with your capacity to lead' is a bit strong... . IMHO, the words of the I Ching itself take precedence over the chakra system in interpreting it. I don't mean that the I Ching's correspondences with other cultures aren't relevant, just that its texts should not be ignored in order to make it fit with another system. Conclusions drawn from the positions of the lines also need to be tested against the texts - the interrelationships of the lines are quite complex, and their significance isn't always what you'd expect. (By the way, my background is in literary interpretation - this probably explains why I get hot under the collar in defence of original texts. Please make allowances!) I don't know much about chakras or martial arts, but it seems to me that what you say about these doesn't actually contradict the standard reading of the hexagram. The leadership and the resources that follow can both be part of the same individual - it is possible to receive this hexagram without being called on to lead other people. Like other hexagrams dealing with relationships, it can apply to relationships within a person as well as between people. The moving lines you receive will help you to determine precisely where you are in this broader situation: at the extremes, line 1 isn't leading, line 6 is. (The message of individual lines is not to be conflated with the message of the hexagram itself.) What does anyone else think - about this hexagram, and the usefulness of other systems of thought in understanding the I Ching? If there is an authority, is it in all the original texts, or just the oldest ones, or outside the book altogether? (I would include systems of interpreting line positions that don't fit with the original names & texts in 'outside the book'.) You know what I think about this by now ;-) - so I'll try not to speak unless spoken to for a while. All the best, Hilary. ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 06 Oct 2000 16:27:42 +0100 From: Michael Lutzeier Subject: Re: Fw: HEX8: Time in the Yi May be of interest: The english word "Time" the german word "Zeit", the dutch word "tijd", the swedish word "timme" (= hour) share some of their roots in indogermanic and greek languages. The indogermanic root is "da(i)" meaning "seperated row"- "casted off"- "measured" also oldind "dati" = "cut off"-"divide", further oldind "diti-h" = "spreading, dividing". In greek one can also find "daiesthai" meaning "spread,divide" and "demos" meaning "section of people". In armenien languages one finds "ti" meaning "lifetime", "age", "years". More obvious there is a connection with "tide" which evenly exists in English, Dutch and German. All above according to my Etymologic Lexikon. In my humble opinion that gives a nice spotlight how even the western world used to comprehend "Time" more as a certain specified quality where to do something special - very similiar to "season". "season" by the way is a french word "saison" oldfrench "seison" and is supposed to go back to lat. "satio" = "sow" "time of sowing"! So first there is sowing, then there is need to cultivate and may be (re)trim, after that there is harvest, always connected with later sowing again. Very linear-very circular at the same time. In my humble opinion the YiJing seems to be connecting linear with circular thinking/approach. We all know, people of the time the YiJing came to existance had a strong tradition of rituals concerning their ancestors, the Son of heaven 's most important task was to make the calendar. Isn't that hints to say people were striving to find their right place and attitude towards "time", realizing there is past-present-future, finding the right balance with the help of circular and linear approach (another dichotomic "creative-receptiveness"). And we are still busy learning by doing. All the best Michael yulong@mindspring.com wrote: > LiSe, > > Are you familiar with a little volume of speeches > given by Joseph Needham at the Chinese University > of Hong Kong in 1981 entitled Science in Traditional > China? The last piece in the book is about attitudes > related to time. You might find it of interest. > > Best, > > Ken > hexagram-8@apocalypse.org wrote: > > This one was sent by mistake to Michael instead of the list, so I send it again. > I will have to check all my mails, if Outlook Express did this often. > LiSe > Book of the moon > www.aheyboer.com > webmaster@aheyboer.com > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Postmaster AHeyboer" > To: "Michael Lutzeier" > Sent: Wednesday, October 04, 2000 8:44 PM > Subject: Re: HEX8: Time in the Yi > > > When the Yi talks about time, he uses a character which means *season*. For farmers, like the Zhou people of King Wen, the most > > important *time*. Every year has its seasons, every day too: morning, midday etc. I do not think the Yi is interested in first - > > earlier - later - future and such things. If one does something, the *season* is the important thing. Sow when it is the time for > > sowing, rest when it is the time for rest. Nature does not think about sowing coming before harvest. She sows when it is the right > > time, she harvests ditto. > > The Yi tries to make you like nature, living instead of thinking linear. > > Living is round, in cycles and seasons. Animals do not know *today and tomorrow*, they only know *now*. To become circular (at > least > > as much as we moderns can) is the big value the Yi can give you. Your intuition is circular (or uses seasons), it is not linear. > > Linear thinking can solve many problems, but the Yi is especially for the problems one cannot solve linear. > > > > LiSe > > Book of the moon > > www.aheyboer.com > > webmaster@aheyboer.com > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Michael Lutzeier" > > To: > > Sent: Tuesday, October 03, 2000 10:00 PM > > Subject: Re: HEX8: Time in the Yi > > > > Hello LiSe, hello Robert , hi all! > > LiSe wrote: > > > Time is usually seen as past, present and future, but is time in the Yi > > not > > > primarily *different* time? So a first hexagram is a different time than a > > > second hexagram. Not earlier or later, although that might be, but in the > > > first place other possibilities, other feelings, etc. > > > > > I can not really understand this, because I always thought (still do) the > > YiJing is relying on "time" as a concept of constant flow and therefore > > change!? As a mean to see everything from its beginning stadium (corn, > > semen) > > "sprouting" to its final development (a tree, to remain in the picture). > > Since every lifeform is under the influence of past, present and future, > > wasn't > > the YiJing developed to find the formulas of change in this irreversable > > string > > of time? The origins seem to lie in astronomic and geomantic investigation. > > In my opinion every time can bear different emotions and sure different > > possibilities, that is corresponding to the different places of the lines. > > > > > > > > ===== > To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org > from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. > > ===== > To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org > from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Oct 2000 10:53:08 -0400 From: "Aquel" Subject: Re: Fw: HEX8: Time in the Yi > thinking/approach. > We all know, people of the time the YiJing came to existance had a strong tradition of rituals concerning their ancestors, the Son of > heaven 's most important task was to make the calendar. Isn't that hints to say people were striving to find their right place and > attitude towards "time", realizing there is past-present-future, finding the right balance with the help of circular and linear > approach (another dichotomic "creative-receptiveness"). > Hmmm, there are some very interesting, very recent, scientific books on quantum mechanics and physics that claim that time, as we visualize it, does not exists. It is only our perception of "change" in our surroundings and situations that give us the illusion of "linear time". Of course, whoever invented the I Ching, a few millenia ago, knew this already... :-) Luis Andrade ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Oct 2000 11:29:05 EDT From: FKegan@aol.com Subject: Re: HEX8: Re: interpreting number 7 (and 8) Hi Hilary, The associations we make to the hexagrams become our commentary, which when written become written commentaries. All text right down to the lines in the published editions of the traditional Imperial collections of commentaries are basically more of these personal associations then written down, and now interpreted by those of us reading them. The correspondences with other texts are also are own imaginative associations, and the question of what is our imagination and what is truly related to the Yi is always a doubt that remains one of the Pillars of faith to be wrestled with in our personal work with the Yi. Each of us decides what is to us fundamental. For me it is the line patterns, and the more I delve deeply into the metaphysics of the Yi, the more I find that it works on ALL levels simultaneously. The more concrete analysis of the trigrams or the simple relationship of line type to line place work exactly as do correspondence with the abstract poetry of other systems like the Sabian Symbols. As to the specifics of Hexagram 7 and 8 which are both a line pattern of all yin lines with a single yang line, and that pattern either reversed or turned upside down from 7 to 8, the one yang line in the whole hexagram at the center of a trigram is pretty clearly focal, although surrounded by all yin lines it is a focus dependent upon the support around it. 7 is associated to the commander of an army who gets to issue the orders, but it is the army that must carry them out, fighting and dying for the general's orders which still are only a subordinate part of the King's rule. Hexagram 8's yang line is in the Crown position, yet this command emphasizes that all the other positions are yin, and thus it is how well the King holds together with his people which is the end result of the pattern. In the most concrete form of the trigrams, there are the two sets of the water cycle, after the rain falling from heaven of hexagram 6, the water enters the earth in 7 and what the local ground doesn't absorb runs off to form the rivers and streams in hexagram 8. The water absorbed (hex 7) is the local watering of the fields and the ground water stored. The water that runs off is the basis for the streams flowing and the great rivers that form the major geographic dynamics of the nation. The patterns work at all levels, and the application of these patterns and the processes they represent to any specific oracle depends upon what was asked, who asked it, what was the timing of the immediate situation and what was the need of the whole reality. Frank ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Oct 2000 11:35:05 EDT From: FKegan@aol.com Subject: Re: HEX8: changing lines and tarot. Hi, Tarot has pictures and specific cards that stay the same and their meaning in a reading is determined by the position they take in a spread. It is a far more concrete and visual process that the Oracle of the Yi. Everything one does with the Tarot can be done with the Yi, however, the imagery and the spread and all that has to be done in your imagination by your own system of interpretation. I suspect as you use the Yi oracle you will develop your own technique and it will be as meaningful to you as you need it to be and will demand the effort to develop that is important to your own process of growth. Frank ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ End of hexagram-8-digest V1 #179 ******************************** From owner-hexagram-8-digest@apocalypse.org Sat Oct 7 13:58:30 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA20795 for hexagram-8-digest-outgoing; Sat, 7 Oct 2000 13:58:30 -0400 Date: Sat, 7 Oct 2000 13:58:30 -0400 Message-Id: <200010071758.NAA20795@apocalypse.org> X-Authentication-Warning: apocalypse.org: majordom set sender to owner-hexagram-8-digest@apocalypse.org using -f From: owner-hexagram-8-digest@apocalypse.org (hexagram-8-digest) To: hexagram-8-digest@apocalypse.org Subject: hexagram-8-digest V1 #180 Reply-To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Sender: owner-hexagram-8-digest@apocalypse.org Errors-To: owner-hexagram-8-digest@apocalypse.org Precedence: bulk hexagram-8-digest Saturday, October 7 2000 Volume 01 : Number 180 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 6 Oct 2000 23:34:18 +0530 From: "Danny Van den Berghe" Subject: HEX8: Announcement: I Ching News Dear friends, I will soon start a free newsletter which will bring news, announcements and more about I Ching. This newsletters will appear irregularly, about 4 times a year. It is not an email discussion list, so your mailbox will not be full with messages every day. Another irregular newsletter will be dedicated to Four Pillars and Feng Shui. I invite you to join according to your interests. I Ching News: The contents will include : News about new articles on the Icrea website I Ching predictions Questions and answers Announcements Interesting links ... To join, go to: http://www.egoups.com/group/ichingnews or send email to: ichingnews-subscribe@egroups.com - -------------------------------------------------------- Four Pillars & Feng Shui News. The contents will include : Tips and tricks for using the Four Pillars & Feng Shui software News about upgrades and new versions Tidbits and predictions Questions and answers Announcements Interesting links ... To join, go to: http://www.egoups.com/group/fourpillarsnews or send email to: fourpillarsnews-subscribe@egroups.com - ------------------------------------------------------ All the best, Danny http://www.ping.be/icrea ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Oct 2000 21:31:53 +0100 From: "Marianne.Goeppel" Subject: Re: HEX8: Re: interpreting number 7 (and 8) Hi Hilary (and all), for me Hex7 means, among other, discipline, "law&order", self- organisation, even fellowship, with the inherent danger of losing touch with one's inner self and the necessity to meet this danger and take measures against it. As to the question if/how this hexagram is related to leadership, I find it helpful to read the "Commentary on the Decision" by Wilhelm: "This hexagram consists of a mass of yielding lines in the midst of which, in a central although subordinate place, is a single strong line. As a general, not as a ruler, it holds the others under control. From this arises the idea of the mass (the many yielding lines) and of the army - a disciplined multitude." And then: "The firm line in the second place finds support, because of correspondence in the yielding line in the fifth place, the place of the ruler...." Also: "The rulers of the hexagram are the nine in the second place and the six in the fifth. The former, positioned below, is the strong man, while the latter, being above has capacity to employ the strong man." All this, I think, does not point to a clear leader position of line 2 (which, if the hexagram is about leadership, would have to be the line representing this leadership). Maybe the role of the general" (2nd line) could be better described as that of an intermediary? Line 2, the dominant line in this hexagram is also a yang line on a yin place (2), hence no strong position. Hex8, however, as described in Wilhelm/Baynes, First Wing: "This hexagram is the inverse of the proceeding one. In the latter the general, the nine in the second place, is the center while here the center is the nine in the fifth place, the strong, central and correct prince. All the other lines are yielding, hence the relationship of mutual supplementation and assistance. The yielding lines are the subordinates who obey. Thus the name of the hexagram is explained through its structure." Hex8 is imho, among other, about the relationship between the "the masses (Hex7) and the ruler" (the 5th line, yang line on a yang place) and the responsibility of this ruler to cooperate for non-ego purposes and leave aside any rude claims to power (maybe the ideal of "primus inter pares" would fit here to describe the attitude required). As Wilhelm's translation and commentaries (though "ancient-confucian-oriented") are the ones I know best, I took my quotations from there, but I think the mere structure of the hexagram speaks for itself. There are, of course, other aspects in these hexagrams, this ist just my view on the leadership question. And, as you say, the message of individual lines is different again and not to be conflated with the message of the hexagrams themselves. In the past, I sometimes received this hexagram when I asked too much of myself or was about to overestimate my resources. Curious about still other opinions (experiences?) concerning these hexagrams, All the best, Marianne - -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht----- Von: Hilary Barrett An: hexagram-8 Gesendet: Samstag, 5. August 2000 11:38 Betreff: HEX8: Re: interpreting number 7 (and 8) > Hi Danny and all, > Well, at least we agree that hexagrams' meanings depend on the question! > I'm the one who mentioned that Hexagram 7 was associated with the capacity > to lead. I rather think we have very different views of Hexagram 8 as well, > which for me is to do with choosing where you belong. > But I'm not the only one who thinks Hexagram 7 is to do with the > capacity > for leadership (amongst other things, of course). So do Alfred Huang, > Richard Wilhelm, Stephen Karcher - and the author of the Commentary on the > Judgements (T'uan Chuan), who was presumably looking at the reference to a > 'person of noble spirit' in the Judgment itself - or the actual Name of the > hexagram, which has the connotations of model, master, leader, teacher. So I > think that saying it's 'certainly not to do with your capacity to lead' is a > bit strong... . > IMHO, the words of the I Ching itself take precedence over the chakra > system in interpreting it. I don't mean that the I Ching's correspondences > with other cultures aren't relevant, just that its texts should not be > ignored in order to make it fit wi