From owner-hexagram-8-digest@apocalypse.org Sat Nov 4 15:11:28 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA14726 for hexagram-8-digest-outgoing; Sat, 4 Nov 2000 15:11:28 -0500 Date: Sat, 4 Nov 2000 15:11:28 -0500 Message-Id: <200011042011.PAA14726@apocalypse.org> X-Authentication-Warning: apocalypse.org: majordom set sender to owner-hexagram-8-digest@apocalypse.org using -f From: owner-hexagram-8-digest@apocalypse.org (hexagram-8-digest) To: hexagram-8-digest@apocalypse.org Subject: hexagram-8-digest V1 #191 Reply-To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Sender: owner-hexagram-8-digest@apocalypse.org Errors-To: owner-hexagram-8-digest@apocalypse.org Precedence: bulk hexagram-8-digest Saturday, November 4 2000 Volume 01 : Number 191 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 29 Oct 2000 19:13:58 EST From: FKegan@aol.com Subject: Re: HEX8: Diff. trans. & diff. methods Hi Monica, Your insistence that whatever you heard from teachers must be the Truth for all, is most cute, but misses the point totally. You made no response to my comments on the fundamental equations of probability that disappear when the sample is one. The rest is of little importance, you are talking about school stuff and thinking there is no more knowledge than that in the Universe. Statistics are a voting technique, finding the representative number for a population of data devised mostly by the French scientists (and generals) of the Napoleonic era. They share the problems of that era, and again, they deal only with large numbers. Or as Koestler said in Darkness At Noon-- they think of an individual only as the millionth part of a population of one million. So, you may say I must accept your teachers notions because they are all you know, but to me, having long ago argued similar teachers to admit their limits and then moved on to find through my own research where their notions came from and the limits and errors involved, I must reject your comments. The rest is personal opinion, and as yours is based upon theological beliefs (the root of the science and math you use) I must refrain from comment out of respect for freedom of religion. Frank ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2000 12:17:35 -0000 From: "Hilary Barrett" Subject: HEX8: online I Ching resource, at last Dear everyone, I've got the bare skeleton of a site up at www.ichingresources.co.uk. (I'm not arguing with the person who said pinyin was the future, by the way; I just chose the name on the basis of what people mostly search for now.) The idea is to collect and publish as many accounts of real divination experiences as I can - contributions welcome! Send straight to me, or via the site, such as it is. I know not everyone on the list thinks that this approach will be useful. But the site will also have a links page, where you can point visitors to whatever I Ching resources you feel will be more helpful to them! One other thing - I would like to link each page of experiences (sorted by hexagram) to a translation of the text. Wilhelm is an obvious possibility, but what else is available? Thanks! All best wishes, Hilary ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2000 08:26:29 +0100 From: "LiSe" Subject: RE: HEX8: Diff. trans. & diff. methods - -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- Van: owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org [mailto:owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org]Namens omei shan Verzonden: zondag 29 oktober 2000 20:55 Aan: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Onderwerp: Re: HEX8: Diff. trans. & diff. methods If you are wearing a particular item of clothing when you have a particularly good day, do you believe that article of clothing carries luck in it? Monica I do. I do. Not because of any probability or universal power or lack of free will, but because it will give me a good feeling. And good feelings trigger your own luck. Something you do yourself but which is difficult to do intentionally. I throw coins because 'believing' in a higher power makes all rational thinking go nuts. Great to get your intuition working. LiSe I Ching, Book of the Moon www.aheyboer.com webmaster@aheyboer.com ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2000 22:59:32 EST From: Aglie@aol.com Subject: HEX8: Re: Good news for I Ching bibliophiles Hello all! Last week I was in Boston for a medical meeting and as soon as I had a free moment made my way to Cambridge to comb the bookstores. The meeting was about sex and it is no doubt a sign of my own perversity that I was more interested in looking for books on I Ching and China than the meeting. I found a rather small and obscure shop, run by Chinese, called East Meets West. They have a variety of items and a small selection of books which includes two highly sought after and not easily available: Z. D. Sung The Text of Yi King. This seems to have been originally published in China in 1935. There is no bibliographic information about the reprint. The book is important because it includes the Chinese text printed very clearly together with Legge's translation, slightly modified to include line #s (6,7,8,9). Legge's ugly transliteration is unchanged however. This seems indispensible for those, like me, who want to learn to read the I in Chinese. The only other I know of is one published in Shandong which I found in a bookstore in Brussels and have seen nowhere else. It is translated into modern Chinese however. The other hard to find book they have is the I Ching version by Rudolf Ritsema and Stephen Karcher, usually referred to as the Eranos I Ching. Each is less than $20. The tel # is 617 354-9496 and they will do mail order. address is 934 Massachusetts Ave. Cambridge, MA 02138 I don't get a commission but wanted to pass the news along. While on books, just started reading Francois Jullien: Detour and Access: Strategies of Meaning in China and Greece. Some may know his Propensity of Things. The book anayzes why the Chinese express themselves indirectly. (In my experience, Chinese can also be very direct but that is another subject). Jullien shows how the Book of Songs (Shi Jing) was quoted out of context by Confucians to criticize those whom they could not speak directly to. A few phrases in a song would make the point. It seems to me this is how the Yijing was - and is - used also. A phrase is made to have a divinatory meaning unrelated to the context. Some may find it helpful in approaching the Yi. May all sentient beings be happy! Geoffrey ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2000 08:38:29 +0100 From: "LiSe" Subject: RE: HEX8: Diff. trans. & diff. methods Some mails say a lot about the sender but nothing at all about the person they are addressed to LiSe I Ching, Book of the Moon www.aheyboer.com webmaster@aheyboer.com - -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- Van: owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org [mailto:owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org]Namens FKegan@aol.com Verzonden: maandag 30 oktober 2000 1:14 Aan: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Onderwerp: Re: HEX8: Diff. trans. & diff. methods Hi Monica, Your insistence that whatever you heard from teachers must be the Truth for all, is most cute, but misses the point totally. You made no response to my comments on the fundamental equations of probability that disappear when the sample is one. The rest is of little importance, you are talking about school stuff and thinking there is no more knowledge than that in the Universe. Statistics are a voting technique, finding the representative number for a population of data devised mostly by the French scientists (and generals) of the Napoleonic era. They share the problems of that era, and again, they deal only with large numbers. Or as Koestler said in Darkness At Noon-- they think of an individual only as the millionth part of a population of one million. So, you may say I must accept your teachers notions because they are all you know, but to me, having long ago argued similar teachers to admit their limits and then moved on to find through my own research where their notions came from and the limits and errors involved, I must reject your comments. The rest is personal opinion, and as yours is based upon theological beliefs (the root of the science and math you use) I must refrain from comment out of respect for freedom of religion. Frank ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2000 00:34:11 -0800 From: Ron Hale-Evans Subject: RE: HEX8: Diff. trans. & diff. methods Folks, things seem to be heading in a risky direction here. Frank and Lise, please don't be so snarky. We're all here to study a source of wisdom, not spark a flamewar; perhaps you guys should consult the Yi before going any further down this conversational dead-end. Apologising to each other isn't a bad idea either. We all make mistakes. :-) Ron >Some mails say a lot about the sender but nothing at all about the person >they are addressed to > >LiSe >I Ching, Book of the Moon >www.aheyboer.com >webmaster@aheyboer.com > >-----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- >Van: owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org >[mailto:owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org]Namens FKegan@aol.com >Verzonden: maandag 30 oktober 2000 1:14 >Aan: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org >Onderwerp: Re: HEX8: Diff. trans. & diff. methods > >Hi Monica, > Your insistence that whatever you heard from teachers must be the Truth >for all, is most cute, but misses the point totally. You made no response to >my comments on the fundamental equations of probability that disappear when >the sample is one. The rest is of little importance, you are talking about >school stuff and thinking there is no more knowledge than that in the >Universe. > Statistics are a voting technique, finding the representative number for >a population of data devised mostly by the French scientists (and generals) >of the Napoleonic era. They share the problems of that era, and again, they >deal only with large numbers. Or as Koestler said in Darkness At Noon-- they >think of an individual only as the millionth part of a population of one >million. > So, you may say I must accept your teachers notions because they are >all >you know, but to me, having long ago argued similar teachers to admit their >limits and then moved on to find through my own research where their notions >came from and the limits and errors involved, I must reject your comments. > The rest is personal opinion, and as yours is based upon theological >beliefs (the root of the science and math you use) I must refrain from >comment out of respect for freedom of religion. >Frank > > >===== >To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org >from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. > > > >===== >To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org >from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. - -- Ron's Info Closet: Center for Ludic Synergy, Kennexions Glass Bead Game, Positive Revolution FAQ, Hexagram-8 I Ching Mailing List, and links... Ron Hale-Evans ... rwhe@ludism.org ... Further up and further in! fnord ... rwhe@apocalypse.org ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2000 13:03:28 EST From: FKegan@aol.com Subject: HEX8: Re:snarky is in the eye of the beholder - --part1_2f.c82ba27.273457f0_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Ron, My apologies if my reply to a post (not quoted by you) which seemed to order me to accept a belief I found unacceptable (and factually erroneous much more) was not to your taste. Always interesting to see what PC sensors get triggered by open discussion. If the conclusion to your remarks was an apology to me for your remarks I graciously accept it. Beyond that, the discussion you refer to was over a while ago, until of course, you brought it up again. Notions of probability, which were the cause of my remarks you found unPC have little direct connection to the text of the Yi or traditional commentary upon its oracle. The intrusion of probability into science was a matter critiqued by Polyani, the eminent Physical Chemist of Oxford back in the '20's and later in life a philosopher (Cf. his book Personal Knowledge). The assumption that this splinter notion of late 20th century Western thought is controlling in matters of the Yi is a bit of an imposition on the discussion here. Perhaps necessary given the medium and the context, but objecting to the response without noting the cause is also rather an imposition of form over substance. Perhaps it would be beneficial for everyone to review hexagram 6 and its lines. It is particularly fresh in my mind having just completed an Email discussion privately of that hexagram, its associations to the corresponding degrees of the zodiac and to its place in the water cycle by sequence number of trigrams of water under heaven or rain falling. Frank - --part1_2f.c82ba27.273457f0_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Ron,
   My apologies if my reply to a post (not quoted by you) which seemed to
order me to accept a belief I found unacceptable (and factually erroneous
much more) was not to your taste.
    Always interesting to see what PC sensors get triggered by open
discussion.
  If the conclusion to your remarks was an apology to me for your remarks I
graciously accept it.
   Beyond that, the discussion you refer to was over a while ago, until of
course, you brought it up again.
   Notions of probability, which were the cause of my remarks you found unPC
have little direct connection to the text of the Yi or traditional commentary
upon its oracle. The intrusion of probability into science was a matter
critiqued by Polyani, the eminent Physical Chemist of Oxford back in the
'20's and later in life a philosopher (Cf. his book Personal Knowledge). The
assumption that this splinter notion of late 20th century Western thought is
controlling in matters of the Yi  is a bit of an imposition on the discussion
here. Perhaps necessary given the medium and the context, but objecting to
the response without noting the cause is also rather an imposition of form
over substance.
   Perhaps it would be beneficial for everyone to review hexagram 6 and its
lines. It is particularly fresh in my mind having just completed an Email
discussion privately of that hexagram, its associations to the corresponding
degrees of the zodiac and to its place in the water cycle by sequence number
of trigrams of water under heaven or rain falling.
Frank - --part1_2f.c82ba27.273457f0_boundary-- ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2000 13:18:22 -0500 From: "Dr R. Butler" Subject: HEX8: Celestial stems, Earthly branches Hi all, There are a number of references in the oldest (ZhouYi) layers of the Yi to the system of time used by the ancients: the 10 celestial stems and 12 earthly branches. [This is not an complete search, but some examples. I have quoted from Wu's text]. For instance, Hex 18 "Before the start, three days; after the start, three days", here "start" is jia, the first celestial stem. In Hex 49, "One's own day, thus confidence", here "One's own" is yi/ji/si depending on how you interpret the present character from the ancient forms. The yi form is also the sixth celestial stem, the si form is the sixth early branch. In Hex 57 line 5, there is "Before the change, three days, after the change three days", here "change" is geng, the seventh celestial stem.. The name of Hex 38, Kui, is composed of two characters. The left part is eye or sun, the right part is the 10th celestial stem. This ancient system is time was recorded in the oracle bones as well, so is at least of Shang age. The questions I have regards interpreting these particular passages and others in terms of this system of time. Does anyone know if/how this system is still used today? Do you have any views on this interpretation of time in the Yi? How do you use it? All the best, Rhett ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2000 19:27:02 +0100 From: "LiSe" Subject: Re: HEX8: Diff. trans. & diff. methods Ron, of course you are right, I was too sharp. I wanted Monica to know that I did not agree with this mail. And the whole list fell silent because the fun was away, and then I got a bit angry. Frank, I am sorry. I usually like your mails, they are intelligent and you know a lot, so I appreciate them. :-) :-) :-) :-) LiSe Book of the moon www.aheyboer.com webmaster@aheyboer.com - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ron Hale-Evans" To: Sent: Friday, November 03, 2000 9:34 AM Subject: RE: HEX8: Diff. trans. & diff. methods Folks, things seem to be heading in a risky direction here. Frank and Lise, please don't be so snarky. We're all here to study a source of wisdom, not spark a flamewar; perhaps you guys should consult the Yi before going any further down this conversational dead-end. Apologising to each other isn't a bad idea either. We all make mistakes. :-) Ron >Some mails say a lot about the sender but nothing at all about the person >they are addressed to > >LiSe >I Ching, Book of the Moon >www.aheyboer.com >webmaster@aheyboer.com > >-----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- >Van: owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org >[mailto:owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org]Namens FKegan@aol.com >Verzonden: maandag 30 oktober 2000 1:14 >Aan: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org >Onderwerp: Re: HEX8: Diff. trans. & diff. methods > >Hi Monica, > Your insistence that whatever you heard from teachers must be the Truth >for all, is most cute, but misses the point totally. You made no response to >my comments on the fundamental equations of probability that disappear when >the sample is one. The rest is of little importance, you are talking about >school stuff and thinking there is no more knowledge than that in the >Universe. > Statistics are a voting technique, finding the representative number for >a population of data devised mostly by the French scientists (and generals) >of the Napoleonic era. They share the problems of that era, and again, they >deal only with large numbers. Or as Koestler said in Darkness At Noon-- they >think of an individual only as the millionth part of a population of one >million. > So, you may say I must accept your teachers notions because they are >all >you know, but to me, having long ago argued similar teachers to admit their >limits and then moved on to find through my own research where their notions >came from and the limits and errors involved, I must reject your comments. > The rest is personal opinion, and as yours is based upon theological >beliefs (the root of the science and math you use) I must refrain from >comment out of respect for freedom of religion. >Frank > > >===== >To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org >from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. > > > >===== >To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org >from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. - -- Ron's Info Closet: Center for Ludic Synergy, Kennexions Glass Bead Game, Positive Revolution FAQ, Hexagram-8 I Ching Mailing List, and links... Ron Hale-Evans ... rwhe@ludism.org ... Further up and further in! fnord ... rwhe@apocalypse.org ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Jul 2000 19:06:30 +0100 From: "Hilary Barrett" Subject: HEX8: online I Ching resource Anyone who has been sending me contributions for www.ichingresources.co.uk and wondering what's become of them - there may be a problem with the form on site. (Well, it went wrong for LiSe, but won't misbehave for me when I test it.) So if you sent something via the site (and, come to think of it, even if you didn't :-)), please could you email it to me? (Sorry for the inconvenience!) I will start uploading things within the next day or two. Yours optimistically... Hilary. ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Jul 2000 19:01:10 +0100 From: "Hilary Barrett" Subject: Re: HEX8: Diff. trans. & diff. methods Before things took a wrong turning, I think we might have been on an interesting subject (well, I'm interested in it :-). Do probabilities matter in our choice of method, and if so, why? My own thought (just one...) on this - if you believe that probability is the only 'influence' (OK, not an influence, you know what I mean) on how the oracle comes out, then the odds in the method you use might be especially important. Is the assumption that the I Ching is somehow designed to give the right balance of answers (or something) provided it is consulted through a method with the right probabilities? Like I said, I think there's more going on than that, so in theory I'm not that bothered about odds (after all, we've no way of knowing what the original odds were - have we??). (In practice I use marbles - yarrow odds.) Anyone else have any thoughts on this? All best wishes, Hilary. - ----- Original Message ----- From: Ron Hale-Evans To: Sent: Friday, November 03, 2000 9:34 AM Subject: RE: HEX8: Diff. trans. & diff. methods > Folks, things seem to be heading in a risky direction here. Frank and > Lise, please don't be so snarky. We're all here to study a source of > wisdom, not spark a flamewar; perhaps you guys should consult the Yi > before going any further down this conversational dead-end. > > Apologising to each other isn't a bad idea either. We all make mistakes. :-) > > Ron > > >Some mails say a lot about the sender but nothing at all about the person > >they are addressed to > > > >LiSe > >I Ching, Book of the Moon > >www.aheyboer.com > >webmaster@aheyboer.com > > > >-----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- > >Van: owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org > >[mailto:owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org]Namens FKegan@aol.com > >Verzonden: maandag 30 oktober 2000 1:14 > >Aan: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org > >Onderwerp: Re: HEX8: Diff. trans. & diff. methods > > > >Hi Monica, > > Your insistence that whatever you heard from teachers must be the Truth > >for all, is most cute, but misses the point totally. You made no response to > >my comments on the fundamental equations of probability that disappear when > >the sample is one. The rest is of little importance, you are talking about > >school stuff and thinking there is no more knowledge than that in the > >Universe. > > Statistics are a voting technique, finding the representative number for > >a population of data devised mostly by the French scientists (and generals) > >of the Napoleonic era. They share the problems of that era, and again, they > >deal only with large numbers. Or as Koestler said in Darkness At Noon-- they > >think of an individual only as the millionth part of a population of one > >million. > > So, you may say I must accept your teachers notions because they are > >all > >you know, but to me, having long ago argued similar teachers to admit their > >limits and then moved on to find through my own research where their notions > >came from and the limits and errors involved, I must reject your comments. > > The rest is personal opinion, and as yours is based upon theological > >beliefs (the root of the science and math you use) I must refrain from > >comment out of respect for freedom of religion. > >Frank > > > > > >===== > >To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org > >from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. > > > > > > > >===== > >To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org > >from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. > > -- > Ron's Info Closet: Center for Ludic Synergy, Kennexions Glass Bead Game, > Positive Revolution FAQ, Hexagram-8 I Ching Mailing List, and links... > Ron Hale-Evans ... > rwhe@ludism.org ... Further up and further in! fnord ... rwhe@apocalypse.org > > > ===== > To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org > from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. > ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2000 14:50:26 EST From: Aglie@aol.com Subject: Re: HEX8: Probabilites and hexagram selection In a message dated 11/3/00 2:29:49 PM Eastern Standard Time, hj-barrett@lineone.net writes: << Before things took a wrong turning, I think we might have been on an interesting subject (well, I'm interested in it :-). Do probabilities matter in our choice of method, and if so, why? My own thought (just one...) on this - if you believe that probability is the only 'influence' (OK, not an influence, you know what I mean) on how the oracle comes out, then the odds in the method you use might be especially important. Is the assumption that the I Ching is somehow designed to give the right balance of answers (or something) provided it is consulted through a method with the right probabilities? Like I said, I think there's more going on than that, so in theory I'm not that bothered about odds (after all, we've no way of knowing what the original odds were - have we??). (In practice I use marbles - yarrow odds.) Anyone else have any thoughts on this? >> THis is an issue I find very troublesome. The different methods produce different probabilities, especially the yarrow method. There are also a variety of new gadget methods. I have one consisting of 6 bars; each is 4 sided and so the probability of fixed vs moving line is the same - this does not occur in any of the traditional methods. I also have a set of I Ching dice which are 8 sided so each yields a trigram. There are no moving lines this way although one could use an ordinary 6 side die to pick one line as moving. There are other methods such as those described by Huang in I Ching Numerology in which one divides #s by 8 or 6 and the remainder gives the trigram or moving line. I did this on a taxi ride home from the taxi meter and got peaceful homecoming, which it was. But here too you decide consciously how many lines will be moving. I suppose one could work out a random method for this too, perhaps if the next light is red lines are fixed and if green, one is moving. Now, here's my concern. If the 64 gua designate life situations, it is plausible that not all are equally frequent. Let us assume that the "ancient sages: knew this and the early methods took this into account in establishing the yarrow method. Then a single divination might be ok but over time the distribution would be skewed, depending on the choice of method. Having said this, I have switched from yarrow to coins because then I can consult more often. Alternatively, one could assume that the I knows the method and the universe gives you an answer "knowing" what method you have selected. Tarot, which is the other method I use, is completely random, assuming a complete shuffle. However the choice of what spread to use will determine the position of the cards and hence their meaning. BUt for some reason, I don't worry about it with Tarot. Anyone else worry over this issue? May all sentient beings be happy! Geoffrey ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2000 18:29:37 EST From: FKegan@aol.com Subject: Re: HEX8: Diff. trans. & diff. methods - --part1_51.2fbcdb0.2734a461_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi LiSe, I appreciate your remarks though I am not clear what the problem was to begin with or why replies were a problem when the original post which caused the replies got lost in the shuffle. The question of probabilities only makes sense in terms of the math and philosophy (and theology) involved. An alternative is to note that if you take the question seriously and the oracle as the only answer right now, it is a unique event and probabilities or the odds that a coin will fall heads on average or that the dividing of a bundle of yarrow odd or even on average - -- do not apply. Experience with the oracle tends to indicate that you get the answer you need and the ingenuity of the oracle to find a way to express what you need to hear through whatever format or technique or probability or odds are placed in the way is a source of constant wonderment to those open to this. If you must believe odds and probability run everything and casting the oracle is just a variant of playing the slots, then you will find that the search for the perfect medium will require vast research and special equipment -- but the oracles won't be any better. Frank - --part1_51.2fbcdb0.2734a461_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi LiSe,
   I appreciate your remarks though I am not clear what the problem was to
begin with or why replies were a problem when the original post which caused
the replies got lost in the shuffle.
  The question of probabilities only makes sense in terms of the math and
philosophy (and theology) involved.  An alternative is to note that if you
take the question seriously and the oracle as the only answer right now, it
is a unique event and probabilities or the odds that a coin will fall heads
on average or that the dividing of a bundle of yarrow odd or even on average
-- do not apply.
     Experience with the oracle tends to indicate that you get the answer
you need and the ingenuity of the oracle to find a way to express what you
need to hear through whatever format or technique or probability or odds are
placed in the way is a source of constant wonderment to those open to this.
 If you must believe odds and probability run everything and casting the
oracle is just a variant of playing the slots, then you will find that the
search for the perfect medium will require vast research and special
equipment -- but the oracles won't be any better.
   Frank
- --part1_51.2fbcdb0.2734a461_boundary-- ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2000 13:42:19 -0000 From: "Hilary Barrett" Subject: Re: HEX8: Probabilites and hexagram selection I wouldn't worry about it! Without saying probability somehow doesn't apply, I still find I get good, sensible answers regardless of the method chosen. I actually used the 'wrong' odds for some months and the answers I received weren't noticeably skewed in the direction the probabilities would have implied. The only time odds have 'got to me' was trying to use a computer program whose authors had decided there should be an equal chance of getting moving or unmoving lines. Result - so many moving lines that relating to the answers was very hard. But if you used one of the methods for dealing with multiple moving lines, this wouldn't be a problem. (Come to think of it, I wouldn't be happy with a method that could only produce one moving line, because I often learn a lot from the contrast between two. Perhaps the choice of method depends to a great extent on how you relate to the answers.) Btw, I like the yarrow odds very much, but they're a reconstruction, and - I think - about the same age as the three-coin method. So there's no reason I know of to assume they're the odds the oracle was originally 'meant' to be used with. (You can get the same odds, if you prefer them, with a two-coin or 16-marble method which are quick & easy to use.) I like the idea of divination from taxi meter, though I doubt my mental arithmetic would be up to it :-). How do you do this? Best wishes, Hilary. - ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Friday, November 03, 2000 7:50 PM Subject: Re: HEX8: Probabilites and hexagram selection > In a message dated 11/3/00 2:29:49 PM Eastern Standard Time, > hj-barrett@lineone.net writes: > > << > Before things took a wrong turning, I think we might have been on an > interesting subject (well, I'm interested in it :-). Do probabilities matter > in our choice of method, and if so, why? > My own thought (just one...) on this - if you believe that probability is > the only 'influence' (OK, not an influence, you know what I mean) on how the > oracle comes out, then the odds in the method you use might be especially > important. Is the assumption that the I Ching is somehow designed to give > the right balance of answers (or something) provided it is consulted through > a method with the right probabilities? > Like I said, I think there's more going on than that, so in theory I'm not > that bothered about odds (after all, we've no way of knowing what the > original odds were - have we??). (In practice I use marbles - yarrow odds.) > > Anyone else have any thoughts on this? >> > THis is an issue I find very troublesome. The different methods produce > different probabilities, especially the yarrow method. There are also a > variety of new gadget methods. I have one consisting of 6 bars; each is 4 > sided and so the probability of fixed vs moving line is the same - this does > not occur in any of the traditional methods. I also have a set of I Ching > dice which are 8 sided so each yields a trigram. There are no moving lines > this way although one could use an ordinary 6 side die to pick one line as > moving. There are other methods such as those described by Huang in I Ching > Numerology in which one divides #s by 8 or 6 and the remainder gives the > trigram or moving line. I did this on a taxi ride home from the taxi meter > and got peaceful homecoming, which it was. But here too you decide > consciously how many lines will be moving. I suppose one could work out a > random method for this too, perhaps if the next light is red lines are fixed > and if green, one is moving. > Now, here's my concern. If the 64 gua designate life situations, it is > plausible that not all are equally frequent. Let us assume that the "ancient > sages: knew this and the early methods took this into account in establishing > the yarrow method. Then a single divination might be ok but over time the > distribution would be skewed, depending on the choice of method. > Having said this, I have switched from yarrow to coins because then I can > consult more often. > Alternatively, one could assume that the I knows the method and the > universe gives you an answer "knowing" what method you have selected. > Tarot, which is the other method I use, is completely random, assuming a > complete shuffle. However the choice of what spread to use will determine the > position of the cards and hence their meaning. BUt for some reason, I don't > worry about it with Tarot. > Anyone else worry over this issue? > > May all sentient beings be happy! > Geoffrey > > > ===== > To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org > from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. > ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 4 Nov 2000 21:10:19 +0100 From: "Lise Heyboer" Subject: HEX8: Re: Celestial stems, Earthly branches I know the Celestial Stems were used during Shang. I do not know about the Earthly Branches, but I guess they used them too. Together they make the Chinese calendar of 60 days and 60 years. Personally I think that the Yi was originally a moon-calendar (or almanac), made up of 60 descriptions of days: together a yang and a yin moon. And four hexagrams which were not a special day but 'old yang', 'old yin', 'young yang' and 'young yin'. Later it was used for the sun-months too, because that was easier to handle, with fixed periods in the year. The moon-months were always different. (This is all IMO!) It works for both cycles because they have the same structure: new moon/winter, first quarter/spring, full moon/summer and last quarter/autumn. Nowadays in Western and in Chinese astrology the successive moons are still alternating a yang and a yin one. Aquarius is a positive sign or month, and the corresponding Tiger (which always starts at new moon in Aquarius) is a yang moon. Pisces is negative, and the Chinese Rabbit is yin. More below, between Rhett's text. LiSe Book of the moon www.aheyboer.com webmaster@aheyboer.com - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dr R. Butler" To: Sent: Friday, November 03, 2000 7:18 PM Subject: HEX8: Celestial stems, Earthly branches > Hi all, > > There are a number of references in the oldest (ZhouYi) layers of the Yi > to the system of time used by the ancients: the 10 celestial stems and 12 > earthly branches. [This is not an complete search, but some examples. I > have quoted from Wu's text]. > > For instance, Hex 18 "Before the start, three days; after the start, three > days", here "start" is jia, the first celestial stem. Jia is a carapace or helmet or armor, and it is the Celestial Stem of yang wood, the first one of the cycle (of 10 days and of 10 years). That is why it means 'start'. I have no idea if it has anything to do with turtle's carapaces. > In Hex 49, "One's own day, thus confidence", here "One's own" is yi/ji/si > depending on how you interpret the present character from the ancient > forms. The yi form is also the sixth celestial stem, the si form is the > sixth early branch. The 6th Earthly Branch is Sì, it means embryo or fetus. The animal of the 6th Branch is the snake, and I think here it is used because of the snake: the symbol of change and revolution and renewal. It sheds its skin. Yí is to stop, cease, end, used up. Probably a picture of an exhalation or an outcry. I don't see a reason for its use here, at least not a clear as the snake. And Jì is maybe a picture of thread on a loom, one of its meanings was 'unravel threads'. Later it was used for the word 'self'. For this one I also don't see a good reason for its use. So I'm betting on the snake. But of course nobody knows which one is the original one. They all three look so much alike that a writing error was almost inevitable. > In Hex 57 line 5, there is "Before the change, three days, after the change > three days", here "change" is geng, the seventh celestial stem.. Geng is a thresher, and it was used for indicating an age or a period of time or a constellation. In the Heavenly Stems it is yang metal. Metal is malleable and can be changed, and then after cooling down it will keep its shape. Three days before and after Geng means (IMO) think well before ending a period and beginning a new one, do everything necessary, do not rush. (It changes to hex.18: about repairing and correcting things, and there also it says not to rush: three days before and after Jia). > The name of Hex 38, Kui, is composed of two characters. The left part is > eye or sun, the right part is the 10th celestial stem. The old character Gui looks like a sorcerers symbol, if you want to know how it looks: it is on my website at hex.38. It is a picture of a grass mat, used for pouring libations on it or presenting offerings. In the Celestial Stems it is 'yin water', the offering of liquids or liquors? > This ancient system is time was recorded in the oracle bones as well, so is > at least of Shang age. > > The questions I have regards interpreting these particular passages and > others in terms of this system of time. Does anyone know if/how this system > is still used today? Do you have any views on this interpretation of time > in the Yi? How do you use it? > > All the best, > > Rhett > > > > > > ===== > To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org > from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. > ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ End of hexagram-8-digest V1 #191 ******************************** From owner-hexagram-8-digest@apocalypse.org Wed Nov 15 10:28:33 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA22144 for hexagram-8-digest-outgoing; Wed, 15 Nov 2000 10:28:33 -0500 Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 10:28:33 -0500 Message-Id: <200011151528.KAA22144@apocalypse.org> X-Authentication-Warning: apocalypse.org: majordom set sender to owner-hexagram-8-digest@apocalypse.org using -f From: owner-hexagram-8-digest@apocalypse.org (hexagram-8-digest) To: hexagram-8-digest@apocalypse.org Subject: hexagram-8-digest V1 #192 Reply-To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Sender: owner-hexagram-8-digest@apocalypse.org Errors-To: owner-hexagram-8-digest@apocalypse.org Precedence: bulk hexagram-8-digest Wednesday, November 15 2000 Volume 01 : Number 192 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 4 Nov 2000 20:01:04 EST From: FKegan@aol.com Subject: Re: HEX8: Re: Celestial stems, Earthly branches - --part1_6c.48b46d9.27360b50_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi LiSe, The structure of the hexagrams will work for any cyclic system, all circles are similar (Euclid). The traditional commentary translated in tiny bits in Wilhelm notes that the sequence is purely philosophical, 3 sets of 10 in the first half, the rest in the second. The total of 6 sets of 10 and 4 corners follows from the fundamental math involved, which also neatly falls into line with just about any other explanation one would care to use instead. What is truly remarkable about the Yi structure is that its elegant simplicity, truly the absolute minimalist rendering of any and all possible cycles corresponded together. A few years ago I researched the Chinese calendar a bit. The initial question had to do with modern claims the Yi was related to solar year calculations based upon a factor of 13 (13*4*7= 364). Turns out that although the Chinese lunar calendar uses a 13th month at times, it is always seen in Chinese terms as a 12 month calendar with just an extra month thrown in to balance the solar year. Also there have been apparently many, many corrections made to return the calendar as used to celestial mechanics. One interesting note-- JPL in doing their computer research discovered an astronomical event, a very great conjunction of many planets together which could well have been the marker used to start the year counting which is noted in traditional commentary on the first year of the calendar. Frank - --part1_6c.48b46d9.27360b50_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi LiSe,
   The structure of the hexagrams will work for any cyclic system, all
circles are similar (Euclid). The traditional commentary translated in tiny
bits in Wilhelm notes that the sequence is purely philosophical, 3 sets of 10
in the first half, the rest in the second. The total of 6 sets of 10 and 4
corners follows from the fundamental math involved, which also neatly falls
into line with just about any other explanation one would care to use instead.
    What is truly remarkable about the Yi structure is that its elegant
simplicity, truly the absolute minimalist rendering of any and all possible
cycles corresponded together.
    A few years ago I researched the Chinese calendar a bit. The initial
question had to do with modern claims the Yi was related to solar year
calculations based upon a factor of 13 (13*4*7= 364). Turns out that although
the Chinese lunar calendar uses a 13th month at times, it is always seen in
Chinese terms as a 12 month calendar with just an extra month thrown in to
balance the solar year. Also there have been apparently many, many
corrections made to return the calendar as used to celestial mechanics.
  One interesting note-- JPL in doing their computer research discovered an
astronomical event, a very great conjunction of many planets together which
could well have been the marker used to start the year counting which is
noted in traditional commentary on the first year of the calendar.
Frank - --part1_6c.48b46d9.27360b50_boundary-- ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 4 Nov 2000 23:12:08 -0500 From: "Dr R. Butler" Subject: Re: HEX8: Re: Celestial stems, Earthly branches Hi LiSe, I know that in some other contexts, Jia, the first celestial stem is used for "first", the ordinal number one, and the second celestial stem is used for "second", etc. I do not know how high this might go, but one could conceive that to its logical conculsion, yi/ji/si in Hex 49 could mean, "sixth", referring to the sixth day. Thus, "Sixth day, thus confidence" to paraphrase Wu. Similarly, Hex 57.5 could be read, "Before the Seventh, three days, after the Seventh three days". For Hex 38, the Eye and the tenth (last) celestial stem, could be interpreted as "looking to the end of the cycle". Are these celestial stem contexts simply ordinal numbers? Or are they referential to specific phases of time? In Hex 19, To arrive or approach, it states "Reaching the eighth month, there will be misfortune". Here ba, translated as eighth is the normal cardinal ba, 8. Not the eighth celestial stem referring to the ordinal, eighth. Hence is this "eight moons (months)", not "eighth month"? I wonder when these celestial cycles started? Did they start with the lunar new year? All the best, Rhett >I know the Celestial Stems were used during Shang. I do not know about the >Earthly Branches, but I guess they used them too. >Together they make the Chinese calendar of 60 days and 60 years. >Personally I think that the Yi was originally a moon-calendar (or >almanac), made up of 60 descriptions of days: together a yang and >a yin moon. And four hexagrams which were not a special day but 'old >yang', 'old yin', 'young yang' and 'young yin'. >Later it was used for the sun-months too, because that was easier to >handle, with fixed periods in the year. The moon-months were >always different. (This is all IMO!) >It works for both cycles because they have the same structure: new >moon/winter, first quarter/spring, full moon/summer and last >quarter/autumn. >Nowadays in Western and in Chinese astrology the successive moons are >still alternating a yang and a yin one. Aquarius is a positive >sign or month, and the corresponding Tiger (which always starts at new >moon in Aquarius) is a yang moon. Pisces is negative, and the >Chinese Rabbit is yin. >More below, between Rhett's text. > >LiSe >Book of the moon >www.aheyboer.com >webmaster@aheyboer.com > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Dr R. Butler" >To: >Sent: Friday, November 03, 2000 7:18 PM >Subject: HEX8: Celestial stems, Earthly branches > > >> Hi all, >> >> There are a number of references in the oldest (ZhouYi) layers of the Yi >> to the system of time used by the ancients: the 10 celestial stems and 12 >> earthly branches. [This is not an complete search, but some examples. I >> have quoted from Wu's text]. >> >> For instance, Hex 18 "Before the start, three days; after the start, three >> days", here "start" is jia, the first celestial stem. > >Jia is a carapace or helmet or armor, and it is the Celestial Stem of yang >wood, the first one of the cycle (of 10 days and of 10 >years). That is why it means 'start'. I have no idea if it has anything to >do with turtle's carapaces. > >> In Hex 49, "One's own day, thus confidence", here "One's own" is yi/ji/si >> depending on how you interpret the present character from the ancient >> forms. The yi form is also the sixth celestial stem, the si form is the >> sixth early branch. > >The 6th Earthly Branch is Sì, it means embryo or fetus. The animal of the >6th Branch is the snake, and I think here it is used >because of the snake: the symbol of change and revolution and renewal. It >sheds its skin. >Yí is to stop, cease, end, used up. Probably a picture of an exhalation or >an outcry. I don't see a reason for its use here, at >least not a clear as the snake. >And Jì is maybe a picture of thread on a loom, one of its meanings was >'unravel threads'. Later it was used for the word 'self'. For >this one I also don't see a good reason for its use. So I'm betting on the >snake. But of course nobody knows which one is the >original one. They all three look so much alike that a writing error was >almost inevitable. > >> In Hex 57 line 5, there is "Before the change, three days, after the change >> three days", here "change" is geng, the seventh celestial stem.. > >Geng is a thresher, and it was used for indicating an age or a period of >time or a constellation. In the Heavenly Stems it is yang >metal. Metal is malleable and can be changed, and then after cooling down >it will keep its shape. Three days before and after Geng >means (IMO) think well before ending a period and beginning a new one, do >everything necessary, do not rush. (It changes to hex.18: >about repairing and correcting things, and there also it says not to rush: >three days before and after Jia). > >> The name of Hex 38, Kui, is composed of two characters. The left part is >> eye or sun, the right part is the 10th celestial stem. > >The old character Gui looks like a sorcerers symbol, if you want to know >how it looks: it is on my website at hex.38. It is a >picture of a grass mat, used for pouring libations on it or presenting >offerings. In the Celestial Stems it is 'yin water', the >offering of liquids or liquors? > >> This ancient system is time was recorded in the oracle bones as well, so is >> at least of Shang age. >> >> The questions I have regards interpreting these particular passages and >> others in terms of this system of time. Does anyone know if/how this system >> is still used today? Do you have any views on this interpretation of time >> in the Yi? How do you use it? >> >> All the best, >> >> Rhett >> >> >> >> >> >> ===== >> To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org >> from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. >> > > > >===== >To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org >from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2000 10:30:59 EST From: Aglie@aol.com Subject: HEX8: Re: Taxi meter hexagrams In a message dated 11/4/00 8:41:46 AM Eastern Standard Time, hj-barrett@lineone.net writes: << I like the idea of divination from taxi meter, though I doubt my mental arithmetic would be up to it :-). How do you do this? >> The method of generating trigrams and moving lines from a number is described in The Numerology of the I Ching by Master Alfred Huang who also is the author of "The Complete I Ching" on pp170-1 and 175. Briefly, one takes any number and divides it by 8 (the number of trigrams). Then the remainder is the number of the trigram except that a zero remainder is trigram # 8. There is a way to count of the trigrams n the fingers using the King Wen sequence described on p 175. I have found this very useful. I wrote them on my fingers in ball point while I was memorizing them. I should say I was visiting San Francisco when I did this - the odd trigram written on one's body hardly attracts attention there. Here's an example: Let's suppose that at the moment one gets the idea of consulting the oracle, the taxi meter reads $19.60. divided by 8, the remainder is 5. Counting around the King Wen sequence clockwise, starting at heaven, one gets wind. This is the lower trigram. One picks another number to derive the upper one. To get the moving line one picks a third number and the remainder is the moving line with zero being line 6. This is easier than it sounds because if you are doing the division in your head, you do not need to keep track of the whole answer, just the remainder. And if you make a mistake, perhaps you were meant to in order to get the foredestined hexagram. If you try if a few times with pencil and paper, you''ll see it is fairly easy. I like this method very much because you can do it on the move and it is dynamic, like taking auguries from the environment. May all sentient beings be happy! Geoffrey ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2000 19:23:33 +0100 From: "Lise Heyboer" Subject: Re: HEX8: Re: Celestial stems, Earthly branches - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dr R. Butler" To: Sent: Sunday, November 05, 2000 5:12 AM Subject: Re: HEX8: Re: Celestial stems, Earthly branches > Hi LiSe, > > I know that in some other contexts, Jia, the first celestial stem is used > for "first", the ordinal number one, and the second celestial stem is used > for "second", etc. I do not know how high this might go, but one could > conceive that to its logical conculsion, yi/ji/si in Hex 49 could mean, > "sixth", referring to the sixth day. Thus, "Sixth day, thus confidence" to > paraphrase Wu. Similarly, Hex 57.5 could be read, "Before the Seventh, > three days, after the Seventh three days". For Hex 38, the Eye and the > tenth (last) celestial stem, could be interpreted as "looking to the end of > the cycle". > Are these celestial stem contexts simply ordinal numbers? Or are they > referential to specific phases of time? I don't know. But my own guess is, that they are used for indicating the first, second - or number one, number two etc. Yuan-Heng-Li-Zhen are also used in this way. Some people even call their children Yuan, Heng etc. > In Hex 19, To arrive or approach, it states "Reaching the eighth month, > there will be misfortune". Here ba, translated as eighth is the normal > cardinal ba, 8. Not the eighth celestial stem referring to the ordinal, > eighth. Hence is this "eight moons (months)", not "eighth month"? I never saw a Chinese dictiomary make any difference between eight and eighth. > I wonder when these celestial cycles started? Did they start with the lunar > new year? Maybe originally, this too I don't know. But now there is no connection anymore. They count on and on in a straight sequence of stems, not reckoning with any moons. Today, Nov.7, is yi3-si4 day. Coincidence? > All the best, > > Rhett > ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2000 20:17:04 +0100 From: "Lise Heyboer" Subject: Re: HEX8: Re: Celestial stems, Earthly branches - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lise Heyboer" To: Sent: Tuesday, November 07, 2000 7:23 PM Subject: Re: HEX8: Re: Celestial stems, Earthly branches > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Dr R. Butler" > To: > Sent: Sunday, November 05, 2000 5:12 AM > Subject: Re: HEX8: Re: Celestial stems, Earthly branches > > > > Hi LiSe, > > > > I know that in some other contexts, Jia, the first celestial stem is used > > for "first", the ordinal number one, and the second celestial stem is used > > for "second", etc. I do not know how high this might go, but one could > > conceive that to its logical conculsion, yi/ji/si in Hex 49 could mean, > > "sixth", referring to the sixth day. Thus, "Sixth day, thus confidence" to > > paraphrase Wu. Similarly, Hex 57.5 could be read, "Before the Seventh, > > three days, after the Seventh three days". For Hex 38, the Eye and the > > tenth (last) celestial stem, could be interpreted as "looking to the end of > > the cycle". > > > Are these celestial stem contexts simply ordinal numbers? Or are they > > referential to specific phases of time? > I don't know. But my own guess is, that they are used for indicating the first, second - or number one, number two etc. ****Answering my own mail.... Must have been late at night when I wrote this! They are much more than just numbers. Each one has a specific meaning, and I think this was derived from the day or the calendar. But again it is late. Not going to write dumb things again. LiSe ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2000 22:50:01 -0500 From: "Dr R. Butler" Subject: Re: HEX8: Re: Celestial stems, Earthly branches Hi LiSe, Whether in the middle of a cloudy night or the brightness of the day, it is good to hear from you, LiSe. ... >> >> > Hi LiSe, >> > >> > I know that in some other contexts, Jia, the first celestial stem is used >> > for "first", the ordinal number one, and the second celestial stem is used >> > for "second", etc. I do not know how high this might go, but one could >> > conceive that to its logical conculsion, yi/ji/si in Hex 49 could mean, >> > "sixth", referring to the sixth day. Thus, "Sixth day, thus confidence" to >> > paraphrase Wu. Similarly, Hex 57.5 could be read, "Before the Seventh, >> > three days, after the Seventh three days". For Hex 38, the Eye and the >> > tenth (last) celestial stem, could be interpreted as "looking to the >>end of >> > the cycle". >> >> > Are these celestial stem contexts simply ordinal numbers? Or are they >> > referential to specific phases of time? > >> I don't know. But my own guess is, that they are used for indicating the >>first, second - or number one, number two etc. >****Answering my own mail.... >Must have been late at night when I wrote this! They are much more than >just numbers. Each one has a specific meaning, and I think >this was derived from the day or the calendar. >But again it is late. Not going to write dumb things again. >LiSe > I was looking in Mathew's dictionary on the Shang dynastic Kings (pg 1166, Appendix A Table 3). Twenty-five of 28 Kings had an appended "Celestial Stem" designation as a part of their Dynastic Name. For instance, Wu Ding or Wu the 4th. In no case is a regular cardinal number used. Aloha, Rhett ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2000 08:49:13 EST From: Frankelmick@aol.com Subject: HEX8: Organizations as Hexagrams I've been interested in the I Ching for a couple of years now and I recently came across Cheng Yi's "I Ching, The Tao of Organization" translated by Thomas Cleary. I was intrigued by the idea of building a hexagram or hexagrams to represent an organisation. For example, line 1 could mean rank and file workers, line 2 skilled workers, line 3 lower and middle management and so on. I tried to apply this to my current work situation - where this is no middle management - and ended up with hx 29. As ever, it would be hard to imagine a more accurate description of the way things are at my work at the moment. I be interested to know if anyone else uses the I Ching in this way ? Thanks and every best wish for the future, Mick ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2000 23:18:10 EST From: FKegan@aol.com Subject: Re: HEX8: Organizations as Hexagrams - --part1_39.c886511.273cd102_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Mick, since the lines of the hexagram describe 6 stages of process organized in terms of a hierarchy of management you very well could use the I Ching commentary to explain your company abstracted as a hexagram. In one workshop with folks who had no prior experience with the I Ching, only an interest in learning about it, I declined to lecture about the actual hexagrams for the first hours, rather described the lines and the places and after the first half of the workshop had the participants each describe themselves by a hexagram pattern which they each took turns explaining to the group. After each one finished, we then read the Wilhelm commentary on the hexagram they had chosen for themselves. Although their reasoning for choosing the pattern was quite different, they found the traditional commentary also fit them very well. Any consistent mapping of personal perception of any situation into a hexagram will work and will be also explained by traditional commentary. Frank - --part1_39.c886511.273cd102_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Mick,
   since the lines of the hexagram describe 6 stages of process organized in
terms of a hierarchy of management you very well could use the I Ching
commentary to explain your company abstracted as a hexagram.
   In one workshop with folks who had no prior experience with the I Ching,
only an interest in learning about it, I declined to lecture about the actual
hexagrams for the first hours, rather described the lines and the places and
after the first half of the workshop had the participants each describe
themselves by a hexagram pattern which they each took turns explaining to the
group. After each one finished, we then read the Wilhelm commentary on the
hexagram they had chosen for themselves. Although their reasoning for
choosing the pattern was quite different, they found the traditional
commentary also fit them very well.
    Any consistent mapping of personal perception of any situation into a
hexagram will work and will be also explained by traditional commentary.
Frank - --part1_39.c886511.273cd102_boundary-- ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 09:20:41 -0500 From: "Dr R. Butler" Subject: Re: HEX8: Re: Celestial stems, Earthly branches ...the west south furthers... My first reading from the Yi was Hex2, the Receptive, no moving lines. "It is favorable to find friends in the west and south" evoked many things to me at the time where I was living in LA, in the southwest US. There is other symbolism of course, but let me simply consider direction at this time. This thought was stimulated by my look into the Celestial stems, Earthly branches. The name of Hex2, Kun, is composed of two characters. At the left is Tu, which means earth, soil, ground [which also looks like shih, a thing, affair, by extension a sage]. At the right in Kun is the character shen, which is the Ninth Earthly Branch [among other meanings]. Looking in Matthews' dictionary recently, I noticed that the Earthly Branches have directional significance. In particular, the Ninth Earthly Branch refers to the "west southwest". This is interesting since the favorability of the "west south" figures prominently in the judgement of Kun. Now, did the directionality of the Ninth Earthly Branch come from Kun, or vice versa, or is it all just coincidence? I do not know of any specific references to the Earthly Branches referring to directions in Shang or early Zhou times. Whatever the actual or symbolic relationship of Kun - Shen with the West-southwest, one can use the perspective of King Wen to see significance in the west-south direction. The Zhou lived in westernmost civilized China. Seeking friends in the west south, would have meant the uncivilized region. Let us, however, consider this from the perspective of King Wen in the Shang capitol, or from Yew-le where he imprisoned (and supposedly wrote the Yi). From this point of view, the west south is his homeland and the Zhou people, as the Zhou capitol Feng lies west-south of Anyang, the Shang capitol. Seeking friends in the west south, in this context would refer to the Zhou people. The judgement text suggests, "seek your friends among the Zhou, lose your friends among the Shang." The concept of the favorable West-South and not favorable East-North is found not only in the judgement texts of Kun, Hex2, but also in the judgement texts of Hex39 and 40. Interestingly, this directional advice is not found in the Lines. I have to admit some personal context here as well. I now live in Washington DC, the heart of the empire, but my home is in Honolulu. I very much see these contexts of the Southwest and Northeast as real. All the best, Rhett ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2000 18:57:37 -0700 From: bradford Subject: HEX8: finding humor in the changes Hi everybody- golly, is this list getting sleepy again? I wanted to suggest another thread. I'm starting to write an article entitled "Finding Humor in the Changes" and am feeling strangely alone here. I haven't seen the subject discussed even once in the 140 Yi books that I've studied in English. I'm talking about something little more radical than the lighthearted and good humored use of metaphor (which I hope is visible to most readers) - more like statements which would have cracked the authors up, and often statements a little too subtle to have ever been noticed by western translators, and even by later Chinese readers. I'll be developing a dozen or so line texts where the failure to see humor has led to the cumulative misunderstanding of these texts. Does anyone have any experiences or insights to share? Credit where due - gotta get some footnotes for this. Sincerely, Bradford ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2000 21:42:25 EST From: Aglie@aol.com Subject: Re: HEX8: finding humor in the changes In a message dated 11/13/00 9:01:16 PM Eastern Standard Time, bradford@independence.net writes: << I'll be developing a dozen or so line texts where the failure to see humor has led to the cumulative misunderstanding of these texts. >> I'll be interested to see this. Confucianism is not known for its humor and that has been the mainstream approach to I Ching. Still, in contrast to Zhuangzi who is one of the most humorous writers of all time and Laozi who enjoys pulling the readers leg, the I has never seemed to have humor, to me. I look forward to your posting. May all sentient beings be happy! Geoffrey ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 18:35:15 +0100 From: "Lise Heyboer" Subject: HEX8: Re: finding humor in the changes I don't know if hex.51.6, about the shock not being any trouble if it reaches your neighbor and not you fits in? I would not call it the highest quality of humor, rather insight in human nature. LiSe Book of the moon www.aheyboer.com webmaster@aheyboer.com - ----- Original Message ----- From: "bradford" To: Sent: Tuesday, November 14, 2000 2:57 AM Subject: HEX8: finding humor in the changes I'm starting to write an article > entitled "Finding Humor in the Changes" and am feeling strangely alone > here. I haven't seen the subject discussed even once in the 140 Yi > books that I've studied in English. > I'm talking about something little more radical than the lighthearted > and good humored use of metaphor (which I hope is visible to most > readers) - more like statements which would have cracked the authors up, > and often statements a little too subtle to have ever been noticed by > western translators, and even by later Chinese readers. I'll be > developing a dozen or so line texts where the failure to see humor has > led to the cumulative misunderstanding of these texts. > Does anyone have any experiences or insights to share? Credit where > due - gotta get some footnotes for this. > Sincerely, > > Bradford > > > ===== > To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org > from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. > ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 13:18:15 -0700 From: bradford Subject: HEX8: Re: finding humor @ 51.6 Good catch LiSe! >Lise Heyboer wrote: > > I don't know if hex.51.6, about the shock not being any trouble if it reaches your neighbor and not you fits in? I would not call it > the highest quality of humor, rather insight in human nature. > LiSe I think lot of the Zhouyi humor is a little dark. The comic force of this one escaped me for a long time, until after I started to write a footnote on the use of the Marital Suitor at the end. These apparent non-sequiturs are often the main clues to humor's presence. From my last translation draft: 51.6 The shock startles (and) confuses Searching (in) wild-eyed panic To go boldly (is) ominous The shock is not in one’s being (Merely) in one’s neighborhood Make no mistakes (Even) the marital suitor* (might) have something to say * 51.6 The poor marital suitor, with his elaborate costume and one-track mind, figures several times as a Clown or Fool figure in the Zhou Yi. In his simple-minded innocence he is often the blank screen upon which the fantasies of others are projected. This Gua is about what Carlos Castaneda calls “being a hunter of power.” Zhi Gua, 21, Biting Through, suggests objectivity, or not taking the thunder personally. Fan Yao 21.6 warns against the perils of ignorance, the consequence of ignoring information, which might here be found even in the least likely place. Now I'm thinking that my old translation has too serious a tone. And in the next draft I should also refer to another of Castaneda's relevant ideas "Using all the event." I just love this marital suitor (just tell him "ten years, no babies"). To me he wears the face of Shino's father in Seven Samuari, and he has a little fist full of flowers which are maybe a little beaten up. Thanks, Bradford ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 20:31:21 -0500 From: "Dr R. Butler" Subject: Re: HEX8: finding humor in the changes >Hi everybody- > golly, is this list getting sleepy again? > I wanted to suggest another thread. I'm starting to write an article >entitled "Finding Humor in the Changes" and am feeling strangely alone >here. I haven't seen the subject discussed even once in the 140 Yi >books that I've studied in English. > I'm talking about something little more radical than the lighthearted >and good humored use of metaphor (which I hope is visible to most >readers) - more like statements which would have cracked the authors up, >and often statements a little too subtle to have ever been noticed by >western translators, and even by later Chinese readers. I'll be >developing a dozen or so line texts where the failure to see humor has >led to the cumulative misunderstanding of these texts. > Does anyone have any experiences or insights to share? Credit where >due - gotta get some footnotes for this. > Sincerely, > > Bradford Hi Bradford, Can't think of a particular story at the moment, but my own experiences with the Yi suggest the Universe has a great sense of humor. There have been many times I have laughed out loud at reading. This seems so natural, that I have not given it much thought. All the best, Rhett ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 10:26:56 +0100 From: "Lise Heyboer" Subject: HEX8: Re: Re: finding humor @ 51.6 Your marital suitor (thanks for the enlightening image! It gives a nice picture for many lines) made me think of hex.22.4 The name of the hex does not only mean adornment, but also energy. What looks like a cowri in the character is a pot or so in which a plant stands. I saw the picture very clear when I saw an Azalea full of buds and emerging flowers: these buds are exactly the same picture and also with both meanings. Line 4 I translate: Then energetic, then silverhaired, then a white horse roaring up. No robber but a marital suitor. Until now I did not yet find a word which comprises energy and adornment. Budding is nearest maybe. I see the guy of line 4 as an older man who is one moment like a stallion, the next feeling he is not so young after all. Trying to be something he cannot make true anymore, and confusing others by it. I don't know if this fits in your humor-search? LiSe Book of the moon www.aheyboer.com webmaster@aheyboer.com - ----- Original Message ----- From: "bradford" To: Sent: Tuesday, November 14, 2000 9:18 PM Subject: HEX8: Re: finding humor @ 51.6 > Good catch LiSe! > > >Lise Heyboer wrote: > > > > I don't know if hex.51.6, about the shock not being any trouble if it reaches your neighbor and not you fits in? I would not call it > > the highest quality of humor, rather insight in human nature. > > LiSe > > I think lot of the Zhouyi humor is a little dark. The comic force of > this one escaped me for a long time, until after I started to write a > footnote on the use of the Marital Suitor at the end. These apparent > non-sequiturs are often the main clues to humor's presence. From my > last translation draft: > > 51.6 > The shock startles (and) confuses > Searching (in) wild-eyed panic > To go boldly (is) ominous > The shock is not in one's being > (Merely) in one's neighborhood > Make no mistakes > (Even) the marital suitor* (might) have something to say > > * 51.6 The poor marital suitor, with his elaborate costume and > one-track mind, figures several times as a Clown or Fool figure in > the Zhou Yi. In his simple-minded innocence he is often the blank > screen upon which the fantasies of others are projected. This Gua is > about what Carlos Castaneda calls "being a hunter of power." Zhi > Gua, 21, Biting Through, suggests objectivity, or not taking the > thunder personally. Fan Yao 21.6 warns against the perils of > ignorance, the consequence of ignoring information, which might here be > found even in the least likely place. > > Now I'm thinking that my old translation has too serious a tone. And > in the next draft I should also refer to another of Castaneda's relevant > ideas "Using all the event." > I just love this marital suitor (just tell him "ten years, no babies"). > To me he wears the face of Shino's father in Seven Samuari, and he has > a little fist full of flowers which are maybe a little beaten up. > > Thanks, > Bradford > > > ===== > To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org > from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. > ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 12:47:31 -0000 From: "Hilary Barrett" Subject: Re: HEX8: finding humor in the changes I hadn't noticed any intrinsic humour, so I'm enjoying this topic and looking forward to more revelations... But I'd agree that the Yi is often very funny (and generally at my expense, it seems...). For example, "Where/ how should I look for my lost I Ching diary?" Answer 20 moving to 2, ie basically "By looking for it...". (There was more to the answer than that - see www.ichingresources.co.uk/hexagrams/h20.html ) (And consider contributing while you're there :-) Or "What effects will the Millennium Bug have in the first months of 2000?" 14 moving to 36. The context creates the humour here - I'd already collected a few tins and some bottled water (OK, a lot of bottled water, and matches, and candles), and you remember the general fuss from normally quite sane sources about imminent air traffic control disasters and complacent, irresponsible governments (see moving lines!). Has anyone else ever had 36 mean "Your wits are obscured"? All best wishes, Hilary - ----- Original Message ----- From: Dr R. Butler To: Sent: Wednesday, November 15, 2000 1:31 AM Subject: Re: HEX8: finding humor in the changes > >Hi everybody- > > golly, is this list getting sleepy again? > > I wanted to suggest another thread. I'm starting to write an article > >entitled "Finding Humor in the Changes" and am feeling strangely alone > >here. I haven't seen the subject discussed even once in the 140 Yi > >books that I've studied in English. > > I'm talking about something little more radical than the lighthearted > >and good humored use of metaphor (which I hope is visible to most > >readers) - more like statements which would have cracked the authors up, > >and often statements a little too subtle to have ever been noticed by > >western translators, and even by later Chinese readers. I'll be > >developing a dozen or so line texts where the failure to see humor has > >led to the cumulative misunderstanding of these texts. > > Does anyone have any experiences or insights to share? Credit where > >due - gotta get some footnotes for this. > > Sincerely, > > > > Bradford > > Hi Bradford, > > Can't think of a particular story at the moment, but my own experiences > with the Yi suggest the Universe has a great sense of humor. There have > been many times I have laughed out loud at reading. This seems so natural, > that I have not given it much thought. > > All the best, > > Rhett > > > > > ===== > To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org > from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. > ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 08:26:07 -0700 From: bradford Subject: HEX8: humor @ 57.6 Hi all- I think I want to offer a better example. Take 57.6: Subtle (things) happening under the bed. Losing some valuables (and) an axe. Constancy has (its) pitfalls. Remember we already saw at 57.2: Subtle (things) happening under the bed. Employing scribes (and) diviners, a confusion of these. Promising. No harm done. Apparently after line 2 our subject has been comforted, and laid all doubts to rest, by making generalizations from a single instance: his "wu" have assured him that it was only a couple of spooks trying to wear him down. But this time the "spooks" are really there, and run off with his money and his axe. Quick generalizations are ill suited to the shape-shifting world of the gua Sun. I think there are several lines of this type, that play with the tendency to lose sight of the subject matter of the gua as a whole, or to not relate one line to what is happening in the others. Bradford ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ End of hexagram-8-digest V1 #192 ******************************** From owner-hexagram-8-digest@apocalypse.org Tue Nov 21 16:25:27 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA29875 for hexagram-8-digest-outgoing; Tue, 21 Nov 2000 16:25:27 -0500 Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2000 16:25:27 -0500 Message-Id: <200011212125.QAA29875@apocalypse.org> X-Authentication-Warning: apocalypse.org: majordom set sender to owner-hexagram-8-digest@apocalypse.org using -f From: owner-hexagram-8-digest@apocalypse.org (hexagram-8-digest) To: hexagram-8-digest@apocalypse.org Subject: hexagram-8-digest V1 #193 Reply-To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Sender: owner-hexagram-8-digest@apocalypse.org Errors-To: owner-hexagram-8-digest@apocalypse.org Precedence: bulk hexagram-8-digest Tuesday, November 21 2000 Volume 01 : Number 193 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 08:52:08 -0700 From: bradford Subject: HEX8: humor @ 22,4 Hi LiSe, I like your jump to flowers here. Lise Heyboer wrote: > > Your marital suitor (thanks for the enlightening image! It gives a nice picture for many lines) made me think of hex.22.4 > The name of the hex does not only mean adornment, but also energy. What looks like a cowri in the character is a pot or so in which > a plant stands. I saw the picture very clear when I saw an Azalea full of buds and emerging flowers: these buds are exactly the same > picture and also with both meanings. > Line 4 I translate: Then energetic, then silverhaired, then a white horse roaring up. No robber but a marital suitor. Until now I > did not yet find a word which comprises energy and adornment. Budding is nearest maybe. > I see the guy of line 4 as an older man who is one moment like a stallion, the next feeling he is not so young after all. Trying to > be something he cannot make true anymore, and confusing others by it. > I don't know if this fits in your humor-search? I see this one a little differently with big parts the same. This gua as a whole does a lot of teasing us about our fondness for glamor, but what we have here is neither sham nor empty romanticism - this here's the mating dance. And it's no coincidence that we exchange bird feathers and plant genitals: this is the power, the energy, that drives both the plant and animal kingdoms genetically. And it's potent enough to make our little suitor larger than life, just cause it's the power of life trying to get larger. So I keep the translation conservative: So elegant looking, as if (of) pure white A white steed, as if on wings Not an adversary (but) a marital suitor. Bradford ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 13:31:59 EST From: FKegan@aol.com Subject: Re: HEX8: finding humor in the changes - --part1_59.2e636be.2744309f_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Hilary, There is a standard commentary, perhaps even Wilhelm that refers to the Chinese for hex 36 as 'the wounding of the bright' in the sense of the intelligent one is injured or disrespected. I have referred to hexagram 36 is the Sitting Son or Setting Sun to express the fluidity of the English sound meanings as a parallel to the flexibility of Chinese meanings. And hexagram 14 as True Gold or True Goaled. This the oracle would yield the phrase True Gold >> Setting Sun or True Goaled >> Sitting Son which could be taken as a humorous way to say it will be money down the drain or those fully invested in this impending disaster will be left sitting around with their inventory and nothing to do with it. It being a sixth of the 4th set of 10 makes it the expression of the end of the process ( 4-5-6 are the 3 stages of process) of the set of concrete human relationship. Or by trigram, the earth piled on top of the fire so the energy is still there but it has no outer expression or effect and is being buried rather than developing. All of which would apply in hindsight. In general, I find the oracle is usually humorous in its choice of answers, unless it is a serious question with the need of a serious reply. For me, the playfulness and human relationship of the oracle answer to me personally was always one of its most appealing and impressive aspects. Frank - --part1_59.2e636be.2744309f_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Hilary,
    There is a standard commentary, perhaps even Wilhelm that refers to the
Chinese for hex 36 as 'the wounding of the bright' in the sense of the
intelligent one is injured or disrespected.
     I have referred to hexagram 36 is the Sitting Son or Setting Sun to
express the fluidity of the English sound meanings as a parallel to the
flexibility of Chinese meanings. And hexagram 14 as True Gold or True Goaled.
This the oracle would yield the phrase True Gold >> Setting Sun or True Goaled
>> Sitting Son which could be taken as a humorous way to say it will be money
down the drain or those fully invested in this impending disaster will be
left sitting around with their inventory and nothing to do with it.
    It being a sixth of the 4th set of 10 makes it the expression of the end
of the process ( 4-5-6 are the 3 stages of process) of the set of concrete
human relationship. Or by trigram, the earth piled on top of the fire so the
energy is still there but it has no outer expression or effect and is being
buried rather than developing.
   All of which would apply in hindsight.
In general, I find the oracle is usually humorous in its choice of answers,
unless it is a serious question with the need of a serious reply. For me, the
playfulness and human relationship of the oracle answer to me personally was
always one of its most appealing and impressive aspects.
Frank - --part1_59.2e636be.2744309f_boundary-- ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 13:37:05 -0700 From: bradford Subject: HEX8: finding humor in the changes hi all- This distinction you've expressed between intrinsic humor and situational humorousness is an angle I hadn't even looked at, much less thought of exploring - but it's Really Cool. Much thanks to Hilary, LiSe, Frank and Rhett. Here's a question related to that: Do you think that the authors' phrasing of the line texts, in such a way as to leave these doors to humorous interpretation open, was in any way deliberate? It seems that a lot of lines can go either way, depending on the mood or tone and helped by context. Many, of course, are unequivocally disapproving or harsh, even though some of these start with parody or satire (e.g 54.6). But on going either way, for example, try 01.4. I don't care much for the WB's "Wavering flight over the depths. No blame." "Flight" just isn't the leap/jump yue that used to be a shamanic feather dance, a rite of passage, the "leap of faith" from aerodynamic theory to real flight. And the use of the grammatical indeterminate huo as wavering is silly. So I read instead: "Somehow to dance across the deep - with no mistakes." Well, you may be a young dragon, but standing there on the edge of that cliff for the first time, your knuckles are still really really white. Just take hold of the wind - yeah, right. This is reminiscent of the quote from David Lloyd George: "Don't be afraid to take a big step if one is indicated. You can't cross a chasm in two small jumps." But here is an example where lightening up could just the key, just the thing to do against gravity. At the same time, another querent might be ready to hear the opposite: "Look down. This is a serious jump. Rethink this whole thing." Not to bias response, but I have a view of the authors as in part filling the future roles of (psycho)therapists and counselors, as well as that of diviners on another level, and with this view I wonder if setting up potential humorous encounters wasn't intended to be therapeutic. Anyone? Bradford ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2000 12:39:56 EST From: FKegan@aol.com Subject: Re: HEX8: finding humor in the changes - --part1_34.ce4741c.274575ec_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Bradford, All humor is at least partially controlled by the context and the culture of the folks hearing the joke. In terms of the translation, that is forever and all-ways a tough set of many things. There are in the Chinese tradition both Confucian and Taoist commentaries, the former mostly for Imperial Bureaucrats and the latter for folks not in the "System" and thus having a far different perspective. Some of the examples cited are only humorous in our perspective -- they would be deadly serious in the office politics of their time. The major insight I found in corresponding the Yi to other systems was to see highlighted how much the limits of a bureaucratic job were built into the line texts -- and that I only understood after spending a cycle of life working for a major government bureaucracy in various positions. The line text is for all poetry and oracle slogans trying to express the meaning of this one line in its particular hexagram. The extent to which the lines of a hexagram all express the same process and that to which they are each independent and thus all about just themselves. Some commentary is based in the poetry and works with the words and associations they bring up for the commentator. Others try to feel or understand the dynamic or process being described and use the poetry to express a portion of their insight. As the Yi commentary has centuries of layers, both kinds of commentary from both perspectives get mixed up and sloshed together through time. The work of counsel and healing is a human universal, so it is not that the ancients of the Yi were reaching forward to be shrinks, but our shrinks are doing their current method of what has been this universal human relationship. In general, I would assume that the difference between those who see or hear of the Yi oracle and those who use it regularly is exactly a matter of the human relationship they form to it as their counselor. For myself, I was introduced to the oracle by a friend who was an early computer programmer type. My immediate experience as I read the text of the Wilhelm for an oracle was that I wasn't reading, but hearing a Chinese sage speaking to be through the pages of the text. The sense of playfulness and humor in the oracle remarks has also been a strong and constant part of my personal experience with oracles. The whole universe of what constitutes an oracle -- is it an objective pattern derived by objective means filtered through probability and the words of the translation used OR is it a personal relationship which comes to focus within the mind using the objective materials available as background--is mostly a question of personal choice or experience which is ultimately the same thing. Humor in an oracle is just a small part of the overall perspective. We find things funny as they seem extraneous to our serious expectations. The great quote on this is the remark that the awkwardness of a beginning skating student is not at all funny to the teacher, though it may be hilarious to a casual observer. So there is Taoist humor and oracle humor and commentator humor and observer humor all which may be found in the Yi in various ways. Frank - --part1_34.ce4741c.274575ec_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Bradford,
    All humor is at least partially controlled by the context and the
culture of the folks hearing the joke. In terms of the translation, that is
forever and all-ways a tough set of many things. There are in the Chinese
tradition both Confucian and Taoist commentaries, the former mostly for
Imperial Bureaucrats and the latter for folks not in the "System" and thus
having a far different perspective.  Some of the examples cited are only
humorous in our perspective -- they would be deadly serious in the office
politics of their time. The major insight I found in corresponding the Yi to
other systems was to see highlighted how much the limits of a bureaucratic
job were built into the line texts -- and that I only understood after
spending a cycle of life working for a major government bureaucracy in
various positions.
    The line text is for all poetry and oracle slogans trying to express the
meaning of this one line in its particular hexagram. The extent to which the
lines of a hexagram all express the same process and that to which they are
each independent and thus all about just themselves. Some commentary is based
in the poetry and works with the words and associations they bring up for the
commentator. Others try to feel or understand the dynamic or process being
described and use the poetry to express a portion of their insight. As the Yi
commentary has centuries of layers, both kinds of commentary from both
perspectives get mixed up and sloshed together through time.
    The work of counsel and healing is a human universal, so it is not that
the ancients of the Yi were reaching forward to be shrinks, but our shrinks
are doing their current method of what has been this universal human
relationship. In general, I would assume that the difference between those
who see or hear of the Yi oracle and those who use it regularly is exactly a
matter of the human relationship they form to it as their counselor.
     For myself, I was introduced to the oracle by a friend who was an early
computer programmer type. My immediate experience as I read the text of the
Wilhelm for an oracle was that I wasn't reading, but hearing a Chinese sage
speaking to be through the pages of the text. The sense of playfulness and
humor in the oracle remarks has also been a strong and constant part of my
personal experience with oracles.
    The whole universe of what constitutes an oracle -- is it an objective
pattern derived by objective means filtered through probability and the words
of the translation used OR is it a personal relationship which comes to focus
within the mind using the objective materials available as background--is
mostly a question of personal choice or experience which is ultimately the
same thing. Humor in an oracle is just a small part of the overall
perspective. We find things funny as they seem extraneous to our serious
expectations. The great quote on this is the remark that the awkwardness of a
beginning skating student is not at all funny to the teacher, though it may
be hilarious to a casual observer.
    So there is Taoist humor and oracle humor and commentator humor and
observer humor all which may be found in the Yi in various ways.
Frank
- --part1_34.ce4741c.274575ec_boundary-- ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2000 20:49:26 +0100 From: "Lise Heyboer" Subject: HEX8: Re: finding humor in the changes LiSe Book of the moon www.aheyboer.com webmaster@aheyboer.com - ----- Original Message ----- From: "bradford" To: Sent: Wednesday, November 15, 2000 9:37 PM Subject: HEX8: finding humor in the changes > hi all- > Here's a question related to that: Do you think that the authors' > phrasing of the line texts, in such a way as to leave these doors to > humorous interpretation open, was in any way deliberate? I think it was indeed phrased dubious (maybe the wrong expression, what I mean is close to paradoxical) in order to open many doors. The inquirer can find the one that suits him. It makes me think of the Geisha who smiles in such an indefinable way that a man can interpret it however he wants (or needs). It solves problems and gives always the right answer. There is no need for an exact or objective answer, but for one that helps you find a solution. > It seems that a lot of lines can go either way, depending on the mood or tone and > helped by context. Many, of course, are unequivocally disapproving or > harsh, .. I never see any line as positive or negative. Have you ever tried to tell a little child what to do? If you do this, then bad-bad, if you do that (the opposite) then good-good. You cannot mention both sides, he will get confused. So you choose one of the two, the easiest one to understand. > Not to bias response, but I have a view of the authors as in part > filling the future roles of (psycho)therapists and counselors, as well > as that of diviners on another level, and with this view I wonder if > setting up potential humorous encounters wasn't intended to be > therapeutic. Anyone? > Bradford I guess therapeutic is another word for awakening the intuition? LiSe ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2000 15:22:26 -0000 From: "Hilary Barrett" Subject: Re: HEX8: finding humor in the changes Hello Bradford and all, There is an idea among students of literature (of whom I'm one) that worrying about the author's original intention (those parts of it that aren't completely obvious from the text) is a blind alley - all you can really know and talk about is how the text has the effects on you that it does. Otherwise you are muddling your own subjectivity in hopelessly with the intentions you are trying to reconstruct, while simultaneously getting further and further away from the text, which is what you're actually supposed to be studying. I'm not saying this can be applied willy-nilly to the I Ching, just offering it for what it's worth. After all, this is the first book I've studied that talks back... My own experience with the I Ching is that I'm definitely encountering a conscious being with intentions - but I don't think these are necessarily the same as those of the original authors. If half of Richard Rutt's book is to be believed (eg the lines of Hexagram 52 describing the dismembering of a human sacrifice, bit by bit), the I seems to have come a long way since its origins. Humour is perhaps harder than most things to sort out in terms of intentions, let alone what is 'intrinsic' and what arises from the situation. Frank's novice ice-skater puts that perfectly well. I'm enjoying your ideas on individual lines enormously. More! Best wishes, Hilary - ----- Original Message ----- From: bradford To: Sent: Wednesday, November 15, 2000 8:37 PM Subject: HEX8: finding humor in the changes > hi all- > This distinction you've expressed between intrinsic humor and > situational humorousness is an angle I hadn't even looked at, much less > thought of exploring - but it's Really Cool. Much thanks to Hilary, > LiSe, Frank and Rhett. > Here's a question related to that: Do you think that the authors' > phrasing of the line texts, in such a way as to leave these doors to > humorous interpretation open, was in any way deliberate? It seems that > a lot of lines can go either way, depending on the mood or tone and > helped by context. Many, of course, are unequivocally disapproving or > harsh, even though some of these start with parody or satire (e.g 54.6). > But on going either way, for example, try 01.4. I don't care much for > the WB's "Wavering flight over the depths. No blame." "Flight" just > isn't the leap/jump yue that used to be a shamanic feather dance, a rite > of passage, the "leap of faith" from aerodynamic theory to real flight. > And the use of the grammatical indeterminate huo as wavering is silly. > So I read instead: "Somehow to dance across the deep - with no > mistakes." Well, you may be a young dragon, but standing there on the > edge of that cliff for the first time, your knuckles are still really > really white. Just take hold of the wind - yeah, right. This is > reminiscent of the quote from David Lloyd George: "Don't be afraid to > take a big step if one is indicated. You can't cross a chasm in two > small jumps." But here is an example where lightening up could just the > key, just the thing to do against gravity. At the same time, another > querent might be ready to hear the opposite: "Look down. This is a > serious jump. Rethink this whole thing." > Not to bias response, but I have a view of the authors as in part > filling the future roles of (psycho)therapists and counselors, as well > as that of diviners on another level, and with this view I wonder if > setting up potential humorous encounters wasn't intended to be > therapeutic. Anyone? > Bradford > > > ===== > To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org > from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. > ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2000 11:30:29 -0700 From: bradford Subject: HEX8: finding humor in the changes Hi Hilary, et al- I have to take issue with some (not all) of this > There is an idea among students of literature (of whom I'm one) that > worrying about the author's original intention (those parts of it that > aren't completely obvious from the text) is a blind alley - all you can > really know and talk about is how the text has the effects on you that it > does. Otherwise you are muddling your own subjectivity in hopelessly with > the intentions you are trying to reconstruct, while simultaneously getting > further and further away from the text, which is what you're actually > supposed to be studying. I never went to the school that teaches this. I went instead to Nietzsche's "write with blood" school, where intention is the thing. I also try to see past a woman's eyeliner and lipstick and, Di and the ancestors willing, her clothing as well. Beating hearts and thinking minds - now that's the thing. Also, my search for the authors' intentions has kept me turning the words over and over in my head until they made the kind of sense that intention could be ascribed to. Given this I could never think of stopping the search when arriving at grunting hamsters and twitching captives. This modernism just leads to postmodernism and then deconstructionism, and then we have to start over. Your point about muddling about in subjectivity is well taken, however, and that is the very reason why I have toted my humble little humor hypothesis into this noble little grove of peers. But there's a further reason for digging past the words of the text. My translation is, if not nearly done, at least almost as advanced as I'm willing to take it for now. It's time to write the commentary, and the kind of work that I'm contemplating is an expansion of the text, rather than an explanation of it, with the original embedded in the expanded material but highlighted in bold. This is pretty ambitious, and to even begin to do it I have to at least try to seek out the point of view of the creators. The humor hypothesis is a working one, and only one of many algorithms. Even when trying my hardest I can only squeeze humor (or even lightheartedness) out of a fourth of the text. And the kind of humor I'll be writing about is far less frequent, less than ten percent of the text. And I'll be concentrating only on those yao ci (line texts) where the humor hypothesis solves long standing and otherwise intractible problems of interpretation, specifically: 05.6 (uninvited guests); 10.6 (the circle's end); 13.5 xiao xiang; 27.6 (the danger); 43.5 (the unenlightened middle; 44.3 (who did this); 47.5 (the nature of the sacrifice); 50.3 (the reason for mentioning rain); 53.4 (flat branch?) and 57.6, already discussed. > I'm not saying this can be applied willy-nilly to the I Ching, just offering > it for what it's worth. After all, this is the first book I've studied that > talks back... My own experience with the I Ching is that I'm definitely > encountering a conscious being with intentions - but I don't think these are > necessarily the same as those of the original authors. If half of Richard > Rutt's book is to be believed (eg the lines of Hexagram 52 describing the > dismembering of a human sacrifice, bit by bit), the I seems to have come a > long way since its origins. Why would more than half of Richard Rutt have to be believed? He is an extremely valuable resource, like Kunst, but the work has some pretty big holes when it comes to making consistent sense. And it relies far too heavily on the notion that etymology is an exact science. The Yi has come nearly three thousand years. But if the text hasn't changed that much, then who has done the changing? The one thing that couldn't have changed is the original intentions of the long-dead authors. (Except as they have returned to continue Yixue). This to me suggests a very intriguing multi-layered intention, and at least suggests the possibility that the authors were way ahead of their time. Well, duh! But the Sufis have long held this approach explicitly: speak to each one according to the degree of comprehension. And the authors would not need to be much further ahead than, say, Lucretius with his theories of natural selection and molecular bonding. > Humour is perhaps harder than most things to sort out in terms of > intentions, let alone what is 'intrinsic' and what arises from the > situation. Again, I'm concentrating primarily of the ability of the hypothesis to solve long-standing problems of interpretation and translation. This group has already taught me to leave the rest open to adapt itself to the situation of the querents and their queries. And hopefully I have left in exchange an open door. And I'm still overstimulated by Frank's last posting. Still reaching for the minds of the authors, but now in richer contexts, like the constraints of offending the Royal Courts of the Western Zhou, and the need for subtlety, ambiguity and especially Back Doors. And yet these comments call freshly to mind the almost ubiquitous role of court jester and the great benefits to the kingdom of making the king laugh at just the right time. The authors would have seen a gradual broadening of their readership over the (2 1/2 ?) centuries of the Zhouyi's composition. Another dimension that Frank's posting has suggested is the gradual broadening of the work's appeal by the time of it's King Xuan era "final" editing, and a new wondering how the authors would have responded to this. Toward the end of this period the attachment of the authors heads would be less at stake, while ofending portions of the Zhouyi could be stricken from the text by royal decree. Having way too much fun for a scowler. Thanks. Bradford ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2000 21:35:16 -0000 From: "Hilary Barrett" Subject: Re: HEX8: finding humor (and/or hamsters) in the changes Hi Bradford, I enjoyed your post. Comments are interspersed with edited highlights... - ----- Original Message ----- From: bradford To: Sent: Friday, November 17, 2000 6:30 PM Subject: HEX8: finding humor in the changes > Hi Hilary, et al- > > I have to take issue with some (not all) of this I hoped you might! > > > There is an idea among students of literature (of whom I'm one) that > > worrying about the author's original intention (those parts of it that > > aren't completely obvious from the text) is a blind alley... > > I never went to the school that teaches this... Not a problem (I had a supervisor [translation: teacher at university] who didn't either, and we got on well.) Possible, I suppose, that students of literature might have more than one idea among them :-) >I went instead to > Nietzsche's "write with blood" school, where intention is the thing. I > also try to see past a woman's eyeliner and lipstick and, Di and the > ancestors willing, her clothing as well. Beating hearts and thinking > minds - now that's the thing. Quite. What else? But the mind and heart that are most obviously present here are those of the individual reading, or consulting, the book. That's where we start finding meanings. (I suspect any differences here are more in theory than in practice. Maybe we have different imaginative ways of approaching this - you think 'what did they mean?' and I think 'what is this book doing, how is it interacting with itself, me, the world, what its original users knew...?' etc. But I have to assume they meant something - see rant about Rutt, below - and I get the impression that you also approach this through your own relationship with the oracle.) > Also, my search for the authors' > intentions has kept me turning the words over and over in my head until > they made the kind of sense that intention could be ascribed to. Given > this I could never think of stopping the search when arriving at > grunting hamsters and twitching captives. Hooray. Nor could I. But on the subject of hamsters, which do seem to get quoted as the epitome of silly results of etymological research, it is possible to get excited about their significance as omen animals, that emerge from deep and complex burrows (aha!) and stand upright, like little people. (Not so little - 2 ft excluding tail...) Linking them up with the received meaning will be another matter. (Anyone have any inspired ideas?) > This modernism just leads to > postmodernism and then deconstructionism... God forbid! Life is too short, and real people and books too interesting. If I ever start talking about the signified sliding under the signifier, etc, shoot me humanely. > My translation is, if not nearly done, at least almost as advanced as > I'm willing to take it for now. It's time to write the commentary, and > the kind of work that I'm contemplating is an expansion of the text, > rather than an explanation of it, with the original embedded in the > expanded material but highlighted in bold. This is pretty ambitious, > and to even begin to do it I have to at least try to seek out the point > of view of the creators. Commentary as well? Wonderful! When, where and by whom will all this be published? > The humor hypothesis is a working one, and only one of many algorithms. > Even when trying my hardest I can only squeeze humor (or even > lightheartedness) out of a fourth of the text. And the kind of humor > I'll be writing about is far less frequent, less than ten percent of the > text. And I'll be concentrating only on those yao ci (line texts) where > the humor hypothesis solves long standing and otherwise intractible > problems of interpretation, specifically: > 05.6 (uninvited guests); 10.6 (the circle's end); 13.5 xiao xiang; 27.6 > (the danger); 43.5 (the unenlightened middle; 44.3 (who did this); 47.5 > (the nature of the sacrifice); 50.3 (the reason for mentioning rain); > 53.4 (flat branch?) and 57.6, already discussed. Am now re-reading all these, comprehensively tantalised. > Why would more than half of Richard Rutt have to be believed? He is an > extremely valuable resource, like Kunst, but the work has some pretty > big holes when it comes to making consistent sense. Yes. The problem is he breaks rule one (yes, this is my personal sacred rule, I admit it): assume it makes sense. (If you like, assume it is 'intended'!). Instead he says there's no spiritual significance as the original authors didn't know the meaning of a personal spiritual life (which is a fairly classic case of the 'authorial intention' trap in its own right, quite apart from being pretty implausible), the names (/'tags') have no meaning and as a rule no connection to the Judgment, etc. Legge has a similar approach. (They have a lot in common - Christians whose interest in the Yi is scholarly only.) End rant. But theories about original images (and myths, folklore, historical allusions) are endlessly fascinating. > The one thing that couldn't > have changed is the original intentions of the long-dead authors. > (Except as they have returned to continue Yixue). This to me suggests a > very intriguing multi-layered intention, and at least suggests the > possibility that the authors were way ahead of their time. Well, duh! > But the Sufis have long held this approach explicitly: speak to each > one according to the degree of comprehension. And the authors would not > need to be much further ahead than, say, Lucretius with his theories of > natural selection and molecular bonding. Multi-layered puts it pretty well. Geology Grand Canyon style! Can all these layers be attributed to the original authors' intention? Does it matter in the slightest, since they are unquestionably there? In any really good work, you can find hosts of complicated ways (allusions, structures...) in which a text has its effects on you, and depths of meaning that the author surely couldn't have *meant* to include. They were just inspired - 'breathed into' and spoken through by something more. It happens. (The point is not to say what the authors could or couldn't have known/ done, but rather to devote attention to what is there without having anyone say 'No, that can't be what was originally meant (because this was a spiritually primitive race/ because the author scribbled this poem on a wall and wouldn't have had time to think all that up/etc), so it's not legitimate material for study.' In case this gives the wrong impression, that's not what I assume you to be saying.) >... And I'm still overstimulated by Frank's last posting. Still reaching > for the minds of the authors, but now in richer contexts, like the > constraints of offending the Royal Courts of the Western Zhou, and the > need for subtlety, ambiguity and especially Back Doors. Yes, I'm also intrigued. Multiple meanings and humour as a way of getting round censorship are a very lively tradition - not one it had ever occurred to me I might find in the Yi. But then it has its ways of getting round ego-censorship... Any correspondence between these? > And yet these > comments call freshly to mind the almost ubiquitous role of court jester > and the great benefits to the kingdom of making the king laugh at just > the right time. The authors would have seen a gradual broadening of > their readership over the (2 1/2 ?) centuries of the Zhouyi's > composition. Another dimension that Frank's posting has suggested is > the gradual broadening of the work's appeal by the time of it's King > Xuan era "final" editing, and a new wondering how the authors would have > responded to this. Toward the end of this period the attachment of the > authors heads would be less at stake, while offending portions of the > Zhouyi could be stricken from the text by royal decree. Mmm - is there any evidence that bits of text were excised? Or were early meanings just commentated into obscurity by anxious Confucians? The impression I have (very woolly, this) is that the original was added to and original meanings supplemented to the point where you can lose sight of the bottom layers altogether (not necessarily a calamity?), but the book was considered of too much practical use to mess with much. (So it wasn't burned.) Am I wrong? (It can happen, so I'm told...) > Having way too much fun for a scowler. Thanks. Ditto! All best wishes, Hilary ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2000 18:45:55 -0000 From: "Hilary Barrett" Subject: HEX8: Yijing woodcuts? Help, anyone... I've been asked if I can find a copy, in English or Chinese, of 'the oldest yijing illustrations with proper references'. Not to put too fine a point on it, I can't. Can anyone help? Many thanks!! All best wishes, Hilary ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2000 12:17:36 -0700 From: bradford Subject: Re: HEX8: Yijing woodcuts? Hilary Barrett wrote: > > Help, anyone... > > I've been asked if I can find a copy, in English or Chinese, of 'the oldest > yijing illustrations with proper references'. Not to put too fine a point on > it, I can't. Can anyone help? Hi Hilary- If I had a question like this I'd ask Lorraine Patsco. Bradford ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2000 21:24:18 +0100 From: "Lise Heyboer" Subject: Re: HEX8: Yijing woodcuts? Could it be Jou Tsung Hwa? Looks like woodcuts, and looks old, but if that is true I don't know. There is a link to an example page on www.aheyboer.com, page 'sources'. The very first book mentioned. I am afraid the scan is not optimal, I will have to make a better one, but first I have to get to know Paint-shop better. LiSe Book of the moon www.aheyboer.com webmaster@aheyboer.com - ----- Original Message ----- From: "bradford" To: Sent: Monday, November 20, 2000 8:17 PM Subject: Re: HEX8: Yijing woodcuts? > > > Hilary Barrett wrote: > > > > Help, anyone... > > > > I've been asked if I can find a copy, in English or Chinese, of 'the oldest > > yijing illustrations with proper references'. Not to put too fine a point on > > it, I can't. Can anyone help? > > Hi Hilary- > If I had a question like this I'd ask Lorraine Patsco. > > Bradford > > > ===== > To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org > from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. > ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2000 15:55:00 -0500 From: "Aquel" Subject: HEX8: Talking about book titles... Here is a very flattering one... The book will be released in December... =============== Complete Idiot's Guide to I Ching by {HYPERLINK "/exec/obidos/search-handle-url/index=books&field-author=Mo ran%2C%20Elizabeth/107-3941005-1555713"}Elizabeth Moran  Our Price: $16.95 This item will be published on December 7, 2000. You may order it now and we will ship it to you when it arrives. =================== That's one am NOT buying... :-) Luis _ _ /_\ __ _ _ _ ___| | //_\\ / _` | | | |/ _ \ | / _ \ (_| | |_| | __/ | \_/ \_/\__, |\__,_|\___|_| |_| ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ End of hexagram-8-digest V1 #193 ********************************