From owner-hexagram-8-digest@apocalypse.org Fri Jan 26 08:13:32 2001 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA00958 for hexagram-8-digest-outgoing; Fri, 26 Jan 2001 08:13:32 -0500 Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2001 08:13:32 -0500 Message-Id: <200101261313.IAA00958@apocalypse.org> X-Authentication-Warning: apocalypse.org: majordom set sender to owner-hexagram-8-digest@apocalypse.org using -f From: owner-hexagram-8-digest@apocalypse.org (hexagram-8-digest) To: hexagram-8-digest@apocalypse.org Subject: hexagram-8-digest V1 #196 Reply-To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Sender: owner-hexagram-8-digest@apocalypse.org Errors-To: owner-hexagram-8-digest@apocalypse.org Precedence: bulk hexagram-8-digest Friday, January 26 2001 Volume 01 : Number 196 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2000 16:28:10 +0100 From: "Postmaster AHeyboer" Subject: HEX8: Language thread ans Schuessler's Dictionary To solve the misunderstanding: copy = ein Exemplar LiSe Book of the moon www.aheyboer.com postmaster@aheyboer.com ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Michael Lutzeier" > To: > Sent: Thursday, December 07, 2000 11:35 PM > Subject: Re: HEX8: Language thread ans Schuessler's Dictionary > > > > > > > > FKegan@aol.com schrieb: > > > > > Hi Geoffrey, > > > I am delighted you were able to get copies of I Ching Primer and > > > Stars > > > and Dice. > > > > Here is a misunderstanding: i got the books! > > Michael > > > > > > > > ===== > > To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org > > from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. > > > ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2000 16:34:14 +0100 From: "Postmaster AHeyboer" Subject: HEX8: Language thread ans Schuessler's Dictionary Sorry for all the one-and-a-half sentences, it is because I had to send it again. LiSe > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: > Sent: Tuesday, December 05, 2000 8:02 PM > Subject: Re: HEX8: Language thread ans Schuessler's Dictionary > > > > LeSe writes: > > > > << covers many more circumstances, it is less narrowly defined. > > I get the meanings from the Far East Chin-E dict., Mathews' C-E dict., > > Wenlin (which is de Francis), and the old characters from > > Karlgren (GSR) and Wang HongYuan. There are more books I use as references, > > like Kunst, Shaugnessy, Lynn, Rutt, sometimes Cleary. > > >>LeSe's recent post was quite helpful to me. > > I wonder if LeSe or others can say more about how they use these > > dictionaries. Are most of the early Zhou (EZ) characters in Mathews? > Yes, most are. More than in Far-East dictionary. Mathews' is WadeGiles-alphabetical, but finding according to radical too. No pinyin. > > > I find > > Schuessler's dictionary extremely irritating because he subscribes to the > > extreme form of the ideology that the real language is spoken rather than > > written. To me, langauge is both. He says his dictionary is a dictionary of > > words and not graphs and it is arranged alphabetically by pinyin. He omits > > characters for which meaning is known but sound is not. (One could ask how > > sure we can be about how EZ was pronounced.) > Schuessler was a sound-man (mhm) and the rest is more or less an extra. > > > To me this means that if we find a character we do not recognize, we must > > first look it up in a dictionary with a radical index, then get the pinyin > > (not given in older dictionaries), then find it in Schuessler. > My very first character took me more than a day to find. Now it is a question of minutes. The easiest way is an YiJing with the pinyin added too. Kunst does, and he also gives the number of the entry in Karlgren 'Grammata Serica Recensa', the best one for old characters. He has a concordance too: for every character all the places where it appears in the Yi. The Wenlin program is very good: point at the character and it shows the pinyin, the meaning, often the old character-form, and it even says it aloud in a man's or woman's voice (www.wenlin.com ). Bradford gives in his book the pinyin and the Mathews' number and also a concordance (I have always a huge admiration for those people who do such a big amount of work). It is a pity that there is no Yi in ZhongWen (www.zhongwen.com ), for there too you can click on a character and you get the meaning immediately. This is a good place to find a character. Even if you know only one part of it, you can search your way through a tree structure and find it. And you can even search for an English word and find the Chinese character. If one of the parts means for example 'man', you find 'ren', then you follow the tree until you see another part of your character and so on. I tried to write to the maker, Harbauch, if he could not include an Yi, but the address did not work, and I have to find the right one yet. > > > What use is a dictionary of a spoken language which has not been spoken for > > more than 2,000 years? There may be some Chinese immortals still alive from > > the Zhou but I am not one of them. If I were, I would not need a dictionary > > or the I Ching for that matter. > > I'm venting my frustration but also asking if others have found a way to make > > this dictionary useful. > > May all sentient beings be happy! > > Geoffrey > > Schuessler is (for me) not a dictionary, but a way to see how characters were used in old texts. F.e. Lin, the name of hex.19, is approaching a valley (literally looking down), or either god or sun shining down: bestowing blessings, or an approacher (a war machine). The most modern meaning is the scientific one: nearing a point (and never actually hitting it). I combine the two. LiSe Book of the moon www.aheyboer.com postmaster@aheyboer.com ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2000 16:37:02 +0100 From: "Postmaster AHeyboer" Subject: HEX8: Language thread I ordered it already. Now I am even more curious.. LiSe Book of the moon www.aheyboer.com postmaster@aheyboer.com ----- Original Message ----- From: FKegan@aol.com To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Sent: Monday, December 04, 2000 12:35 AM Subject: Re: HEX8: Language thread In a message dated 12/3/2000 7:48:56 AM Pacific Standard Time, postmaster@aheyboer.com writes: Is this translation of GiaFu Feng still available anywhere? What I have seen of it makes me certainly curious. Hi Lise, There are very few copies of the Gia-Fu text we wrote together in 1974. Hopefully one of them will get digitalized and be available on the web. Last year I was finally able to register the copyright to it. I am told that Gia-Fu worked on his translation until his death in 1988 and some version of his later work was published in New Zealand. Frank ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2000 16:45:37 -0500 From: Lare/Mo Lei-Li Subject: Re: HEX8: Language thread ans Schuessler's Dictionary For a "hot" [clickable] YJ, go to: http://www.ns.net/~cpolish/DEFAULT.HTM > It is a pity that there is no Yi in ZhongWen > (www.zhongwen.com ), for there too you can click on a character and you get the meaning immediately. ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2000 00:53:07 +0100 From: Michael Lutzeier Subject: Re: HEX8: Language thread ans Schuessler's Dictionary Hi Lise, actually it is not that important, it's only that *I* got the books/copies and not geoffrey. Illusion seems to be a legal way of nature and e-communication. :o)) Michael Postmaster AHeyboer schrieb: > To solve the misunderstanding: copy = ein Exemplar > LiSe > Book of the moon > www.aheyboer.com > postmaster@aheyboer.com > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Michael Lutzeier" > > To: > > Sent: Thursday, December 07, 2000 11:35 PM > > Subject: Re: HEX8: Language thread ans Schuessler's Dictionary > > > > > > > > > > > > > FKegan@aol.com schrieb: > > > > > > > Hi Geoffrey, > > > > I am delighted you were able to get copies of I Ching Primer and > > > > Stars > > > > and Dice. > > > > > > Here is a misunderstanding: i got the books! > > > Michael > > > > > > > > > > > > ===== > > > To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org > > > from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. > > > > > > > ===== > To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org > from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2000 17:59:19 -0500 From: "Aquel" Subject: HEX8: Taoist exhibit in Chicago Hi all! I saw the following interesting article in CNN.COM: http://www.cnn.com/2000/STYLE/arts/12/18/taoist.art.ap/index.html I hope you enjoy it, Luis ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 13:49:06 -0500 From: "Aquel" Subject: HEX8: "I Ching Primer" et al Hi all, I was able to track down and buy a few books that are dificult to find. One is from our friend and fellow list member Frank R. Kegan, "I Ching Primer". Very, very interesting Frank! The other one is "The Nature of the I Ching", by Charles Ponce. Another fascinating point of view. Cheers, Luis ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2000 14:29:49 -0500 From: "Nakashidze" Subject: HEX8: Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2000 23:26:43 +0400 Happy New Year! Greetings to all on the occasion of New Millenium. Best wishes: successes, happiness and wisdom of White Snake! By the way, I read in one message on the list about site with half-hundred translations of hex names. But I forget where I see it and now can't find. Would anyone help me? My book on the "I Ching" will soon appear - it will be in Russian -"Vremia "Peremen" (prostranstrvo i vremia v Iczine) - that means- "Time of "Changes" (space and time in I Ching). All the best, Timur ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2000 13:33:12 -0700 From: bradford Subject: HEX8: Gua Ming (Hexagram Name) Site Hi Timur- You might be thinking about Alan Drake's site. It has a new URL: http://sites.netscape.net/kumoyamaalan/chuntzupath.htm Get workshop flyer #7, PDF format. Bradford ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2000 22:48:19 +0400 From: "Nakashidze" Subject: HEX8: HexNames Hi, Bradford! Thank you very much for your information -Drake's site appears to be very useful. Comparison of HexNames in different translations gives additional information for their understanding. Where your translation of I Ching may be found ? Once more thank you and best wishes in the New Year! Timur ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2000 23:07:43 -0700 From: bradford Subject: Re: HEX8: HexNames Timur: Nakashidze wrote: > > Hi, Bradford! > Thank you very much for your information -Drake's site appears to be very > useful. Comparison of HexNames in different translations gives additional > information for their understanding. > Where your translation of I Ching may be found ? > Once more thank you and best wishes in the New Year! > Timur Hi again. My own translation is undergoing a long revision and is temporarily unavailable in hard copy. I have information from about 30 new books and three new Chinese dictionaries to incorporate into the work. I can only share it now as an Email attachment in Microsoft Word (6 or better). The whole text is 2.5 mb (it's a little over 700 pages long). There would be no charge, but you'd have to write privately for it - I can't send it over Hex-8. Bradford ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2001 10:08:05 +0100 From: "Robert Matusan - Boyler" Subject: HEX8: Gongxi facai! Gongxi facai! Wansui! Boyler ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2001 20:42:33 +0100 From: "Marianne.Goeppel" Subject: Re: HEX8: Gongxi facai! Aaah ??? Now, what does this one mean! Please translate for the non-chinese (and non-?) speaking. Marianne - -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht----- Von: Robert Matusan - Boyler An: hexagram-8 Gesendet: Montag, 22. Januar 2001 10:08 Betreff: HEX8: Gongxi facai! > Gongxi facai! > > Wansui! > Boyler > > > > ===== > To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org > from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. > > ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2001 23:39:01 +0100 From: "Robert Matusan - Boyler" Subject: Re: HEX8: Gongxi facai! Hi Marianne. <> Gongxi facai! is one of Chinese New (Lunar) Year congratilation. Litterary "gongxi" mean "congratulation", and "facai" mean "get rich". But we could say it mean "wish you wealth and happyness". Wansui! Boyler ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 20:42:18 -0000 From: "Hilary Barrett" Subject: Re: HEX8: Gongxi facai! Thank you (for the good wishes and the translation!) A very Happy New Year to you and everyone, too! (A relief to see there's still life on this list :-) Does anyone else consult the I Ching for an annual what-to-look-out-for/ where-next kind of reading at New Year? Mine this year was 42 (unchanging) - anyone who feels like commenting is more than welcome to!) Best wishes to all, Hilary - ----- Original Message ----- From: Robert Matusan - Boyler To: Sent: Wednesday, January 24, 2001 10:39 PM Subject: Re: HEX8: Gongxi facai! > Hi Marianne. > > < Now, what does this one mean! > Please translate for the non-chinese (and non-?) speaking.>> > > Gongxi facai! is one of Chinese New (Lunar) Year congratilation. Litterary > "gongxi" mean "congratulation", and "facai" mean "get rich". But we could > say it mean "wish you wealth and happyness". > > Wansui! > Boyler > > > > ===== > To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org > from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. > ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2001 00:01:37 +0100 From: Michael Lutzeier Subject: HEX8: hx 43 line 4 - -------- Original Message -------- Betreff: Nondeliverable mail Datum: 25 Jan 2001 21:48:01 +0100 Von: postmaster@planet-interkom.de An: mlutzeier@planet-interkom.de - ------Transcript of session follows ------- Connection to apocalypse.org failed. No Ip address found from mail.vi-internet.de-192.168.128.165 hexagram-8@apocalypse.org The operation completed successfully. --------> what was that??? ml Hello everyone and good morning, I may share a private reading of myself with those who are interested. Here's the story My Palm(i.e.Visor- a little handcomputer) crashed severely a couple of days ago and nothing could be done to solve the problem. A couple of hours at night turned out fruitless. The next morning I called the hotline and made a few manoeuvres but nothing solved the problem. Finally I had to agree to give my phone number, in order that they call me In two weeks(!), when the case would be commented by their american collegues. (I'm in Germany as you might have guessed) I have to say that I came to relie on that little Computer a lot. I track all my readings there, I use it as an astrological clock, and of course adresses and dates etc. So what should I do? was the simple question. I received Hx 43 line 2 and line 4. And here is the point where I hope members of the list jump in: Line 4 says: no skin at the thighs, walking is difficult. If one would let one self lead as a sheep, no remorse. But when one hears these words, one will not believe. Wilhelm (roughly translated by myself :-) BUT: In further studies I found out I already received this Hx and lines seven years before. And I had to *struggle* to get out of this previous problem. So I read a couple of other translations (there's nothing wrong with straight wenli...) and I found: Buttocks without skin. he walks haltingly. A dragged sheep. regrets vanish. Hear the words, no belief in them. (Wu Jing-Nuan) And even more clearly: With no skin on the buttocks his walking is "T'sier-Ts'io" labored. if he leads a sheep, troubles will go away. He hears talk, but it is not reliable. (Richard Kunst) On the next morning very thoroughly, step by step, I managed to solve the problem on my computer. So I conclude, that R. Wilhelm mixed up the translation of that particular line. And a lot of writers followed him in the mist. (I have a couple of books with a translation in the same direction) The german writer Frank Fiedeler is one of the exceptions. Even Jou Tsung Hwa sort of follows Wilhelm. What do you think of that particular Hx and Line 4? Any comments would be very welcome. All the best Michael and good morning List! ;-) ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2001 00:02:07 +0100 From: Michael Lutzeier Subject: HEX8: hx 43 line 4 Hello everyone and good morning, I'd like to share a private reading of myself with those who are interested. Here's the story: My Palm(i.e.Visor- a little handcomputer) crashed severely a couple of days ago and nothing could be done to solve the problem. A couple of hours at night turned out fruitless. The next morning I called the hotline and made a few manoeuvres but nothing solved the problem. Finally I had to agree to give my phone number, in order that they call me In two weeks(!), when the case would be commented by their american collegues. (I'm in Germany as you might have guessed) I have to say that I came to relie on that little Computer a lot. I track all my readings there, I use it as an astrological clock, and of course adresses and dates etc. So what should I do? was the simple question. I received Hx 43 line 2 and line 4. And here is the point where I hope members of the list jump in: Line 4 says: no skin at the thighs, walking is difficult. If one would let one self lead as a sheep, no remorse. But when one hears these words, one will not believe. Wilhelm (roughly translated by myself :-) BUT: In further studies I found out I already received this Hx and lines seven years before. And I had to *struggle* to get out of this previous problem. So I read a couple of other translations (there's nothing wrong with straight wenli...) and I found: Buttocks without skin. he walks haltingly. A dragged sheep. regrets vanish. Hear the words, no belief in them. (Wu Jing-Nuan) And even more clearly: With no skin on the buttocks his walking is "T'sier-Ts'io" labored. if he leads a sheep, troubles will go away. He hears talk, but it is not reliable. (Richard Kunst) On the next morning very thoroughly, step by step, I managed to solve the problem on my computer. So I conclude, that R. Wilhelm mixed up the translation of that particular line. And a lot of writers followed him in the mist. (I have a couple of books with a translation in the same direction) The german writer Frank Fiedeler is one of the exceptions. Even Jou Tsung Hwa sort of follows Wilhelm. What do you think of that particular Hx and Line 4? Any comments would be very welcome. All the best Michael and good morning List! ;-) ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2001 01:12:25 -0000 From: "Hilary Barrett" Subject: Re: HEX8: hx 43 line 4 Hello Michael, Nice, graphic line, no? (Great fun when interpreting for complete strangers - 'the oracle says you have no skin on your backside - don't look at me, I didn't say it...') And if you take the two images together, it descends into farce... The skinless posterior suggests acute discomfort and restlessness - I think the line is about urgently needing to get on, but finding it awkward. As for the sheep - as far as I know, it could be a goat or ram. (Help from Chinese speakers??) I think you're bringing the creature on a halter, not being led like one, and I suspect it may be wilful, also wanting to move - or to wander off. (In this instance, wanting urgently to do something about the computer, but not knowing what - and maybe liable to waste time on useless helplines - 'words not trustworthy'?). On a halter this impulse is kept balanced - under control, but not halted altogether, so it can be put to profitable use. Quite what the animal represents would depend on what it was and how it behaves. Does anyone have personal experience with goats, rams and sheep?? (Did you ever hear of anyone leading a single sheep on a halter? But maybe the Chinese ones were nearer the wild sort, and had rather more initiative than ours?) As for Wilhelm, I think maybe he was misled by the Biblical connotations of sheep and shepherds. What did you make of line 2? BTW, when everyone has had their say, how about adding this reading to www.ichingresources.co.uk? All best wishes, Hilary - ----- Original Message ----- From: Michael Lutzeier To: Sent: Thursday, January 25, 2001 11:02 PM Subject: HEX8: hx 43 line 4 > Hello everyone and good morning, > > I'd like to share a private reading of myself with those who are > interested. > Here's the story: > My Palm(i.e.Visor- a little handcomputer) crashed severely a couple of > days ago and nothing could be done to solve the problem. A couple of > hours at night turned out fruitless. The next morning I called the > hotline and made a few manoeuvres but nothing solved the problem. > Finally I had to agree to give my phone number, in order that they call > me In two weeks(!), when the case would be commented by their american > collegues. (I'm in Germany as you might have guessed) > I have to say that I came to relie on that little Computer a lot. I > track all my readings there, I use it as an astrological clock, and of > course adresses and dates etc. > So what should I do? was the simple question. > I received Hx 43 line 2 and line 4. > And here is the point where I hope members of the list jump in: > Line 4 says: no skin at the thighs, walking is difficult. If one would > let one self lead as a sheep, no remorse. But when one hears these > words, one will not believe. Wilhelm (roughly translated by myself :-) > BUT: In further studies I found out I already received this Hx and lines > seven years before. And I had to *struggle* to get out of this previous > problem. So I read a couple of other translations (there's nothing wrong > with straight wenli...) and I found: > Buttocks without skin. he walks haltingly. A dragged sheep. regrets > vanish. Hear the words, no belief in them. (Wu Jing-Nuan) > And even more clearly: With no skin on the buttocks his walking is > "T'sier-Ts'io" labored. if he leads a sheep, troubles will go away. He > hears talk, but it is not reliable. (Richard Kunst) > On the next morning very thoroughly, step by step, I managed to solve > the problem on my computer. > So I conclude, that R. Wilhelm mixed up the translation of that > particular line. And a lot of writers followed him in the mist. (I have > a couple of books with a translation in the same direction) The german > writer Frank Fiedeler is one of the exceptions. Even Jou Tsung Hwa sort > of follows Wilhelm. > What do you think of that particular Hx and Line 4? > Any comments would be very welcome. > > All the best Michael > > and good morning List! ;-) > > > > ===== > To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org > from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. > ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 19:34:05 -0700 From: bradford Subject: Re: HEX8: hx 43 line 4 Hi Michael- for what it's worth, here's another translation: 43.4 9 4th A rump with no skin One’s progress (is) second-rate now To be led (like) a sheep, regrets (would) pass (But) to hear the words is not comprehension 43.4x One’s progress (is) second-rate now: The position (was) not appropriate o To hear the words is not comprehension: Quick to hear (but) not much clarity A draft of a commentary I wrote 15 years ago (and hope to rewrite next year) added this: He chases his accursed thing into a deep dark pit, thinking to have it cornered at last, but forgetting that accursed things thrive and fight best in deep dark pits. Even now, with rear end ruined, he still thinks of himself as the predator here. This fellow needs a new leader. The Chinese I analyzed thus: 43.4 Jiu Si , 9 4th (Zhi Gua 05: Xu, Anticipation) • tun 6602 130+1344.3(a, the) rump, buttocks, bottom, behind wu 7173 01.3 43.5 without, with no; deprived of fu 1958 21.2 44.3 skin, flesh • qi 0525 02.6 one’s xing 2754 11.2 walk(ing), advance, movement, progress ci 6980 07.4 44.3 (is) second-rate, inferior, halting qie 0803 29.3 44.3 (for) now, the time being; here • qian 0881 09.2 44.1x in tow, on a leash, to be led; * (the) tethered yang 7247 34.3 54.6 (as, like) (a, the) sheep, goat; sheep’s hui 2336 01.6 regret(s), remorse wang 7034 11.2 (will, would) pass, disappear, dissolve (s) • wen 7142 128+8 56.6x (but) to hear; listen to yan 7334 05.2 47.0 (the, this, these) words, talk, theory; said bu 5379 02.2 is not, no; (still) wants xin 2748 9+7 47.0 to believe; assurance(ing), comprehension 43.4x Xiao Xiang (Fan Yao 05.4: waiting in blood, get out of the pit) S qi one’s xing progress ci (is) second-rate qie now • wei 7116 45.5 (the) place, position, attitude, dignity bu 5379 02.2 (is, was) not, in-; im-; less than, [mal-] dang 6087 05.6x appropriate, proper, suited, [adaptive] S wen to hear yan (the, these) words bu is not xin comprehension • cong 6916 21.6x 50.T (quick at, to) hear(ing); clever(ness) bu 5379 02.2 (but) without; with no; not much; not ming 4534 17.4 clarity, light, vision, intelligence; clearly Michael Lutzeier wrote: > > Hello everyone and good morning, > > I'd like to share a private reading of myself with those who are > interested. > Here's the story: > My Palm(i.e.Visor- a little handcomputer) crashed severely a couple of > days ago and nothing could be done to solve the problem. A couple of > hours at night turned out fruitless. The next morning I called the > hotline and made a few manoeuvres but nothing solved the problem. > Finally I had to agree to give my phone number, in order that they call > me In two weeks(!), when the case would be commented by their american > collegues. (I'm in Germany as you might have guessed) > I have to say that I came to relie on that little Computer a lot. I > track all my readings there, I use it as an astrological clock, and of > course adresses and dates etc. > So what should I do? was the simple question. > I received Hx 43 line 2 and line 4. > And here is the point where I hope members of the list jump in: > Line 4 says: no skin at the thighs, walking is difficult. If one would > let one self lead as a sheep, no remorse. But when one hears these > words, one will not believe. Wilhelm (roughly translated by myself :-) > BUT: In further studies I found out I already received this Hx and lines > seven years before. And I had to *struggle* to get out of this previous > problem. So I read a couple of other translations (there's nothing wrong > with straight wenli...) and I found: > Buttocks without skin. he walks haltingly. A dragged sheep. regrets > vanish. Hear the words, no belief in them. (Wu Jing-Nuan) > And even more clearly: With no skin on the buttocks his walking is > "T'sier-Ts'io" labored. if he leads a sheep, troubles will go away. He > hears talk, but it is not reliable. (Richard Kunst) > On the next morning very thoroughly, step by step, I managed to solve > the problem on my computer. > So I conclude, that R. Wilhelm mixed up the translation of that > particular line. And a lot of writers followed him in the mist. (I have > a couple of books with a translation in the same direction) The german > writer Frank Fiedeler is one of the exceptions. Even Jou Tsung Hwa sort > of follows Wilhelm. > What do you think of that particular Hx and Line 4? > Any comments would be very welcome. > > All the best Michael > > and good morning List! ;-) > > ===== > To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org > from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2001 06:58:54 EST From: Autorbis@aol.com Subject: Re: HEX8: hx 43 line 4 Hi, hex 43, "break through", line 4, develops into hex 5, waiting. The commentary of line 4 looks plausible, as somebody, who is eager and willing to "break through", has naturally trouble to stay in a "waiting" position. hex 43, with line 2 + 4, develops in hex 63. Hex 63 has a different meaning than hex. 5, so the text of line 4 is meaningless in this situation (my humble opinion). (Imho) You have to construct a new "double line interpretation" by yourself. In this case I would suggest, that the motion-asking, but hindered 4th line, which "must wait", is helped by the "revolutionary" second line (43, 2nd line, develops in hex 49 = "revolution"), and the result of this stronger energy is neither 5, Waiting nor 49, Revolution but hex 63, Completion. Lothar ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2001 14:10:39 +0100 From: Michael Lutzeier Subject: Re: HEX8: hx 43 line 4 Hi Bradford, The two crucial points of translating this line seem to be: A) qian 0881 09.2 44.1x in tow, on a leash, to be led; is it "being led like a sheep" or "having a sheep on a leash" and B) yan 7334 05.2 47.0 (the, this, these) words, talk, theory; said bu 5379 02.2 is not, no; (still) wants xin 2748 9+7 47.0 to believe;assurance(ing),comprehension is it "(But) to hear the words is not comprehension" or "words heard are not to believe" I personally tend to both the latter translations. The whole situation described in Hx 43 is a decision. Bringing the culprit to the king, while it's not necessary to arm everybody, it's necessary to be truthfully and knowing what to do. The 4th line is not the culprit but the minister to bring the 6th to the 5th i.e. the leader/king to the have the case decided.Wu Jing-Nuan comments: The words of someone with skinned buttocks, walking hesitantly like a dragged sheep, might be difficult to be believe, since in all probability he had been flooged for criminal activity. It's like Bill Clinton begging for mercy: "No I didn't inhale" ;-) Or in my case, the Tech support: your computer problem (for which in fact *they* were responsible) will be solved, don't worry-just wait" These words are not relieable. The 4th line should look actively for leadership, but not listen to the words of the culprit who's being dragged like sheep, and makes a sheep's face. Get the picture? all the best Michael PS: Note the similiarity with Hx 44 line 3. bradford schrieb: > Hi Michael- > for what it's worth, here's another translation: > > 43.4 9 4th A rump with no skin > One’s progress (is) second-rate now > To be led (like) a sheep, regrets (would) pass > (But) to hear the words is not comprehension > > 43.4x One’s progress (is) second-rate now: > The position (was) not appropriate > o To hear the words is not comprehension: > Quick to hear (but) not much clarity > > A draft of a commentary I wrote 15 years ago (and hope to rewrite next > year) added this: > > He chases his accursed thing into a deep dark pit, thinking to have it > cornered at last, but forgetting that accursed things thrive and fight > best in deep dark pits. Even now, with rear end ruined, he still thinks > of himself as the predator here. This fellow needs a new leader. > > The Chinese I analyzed thus: > > 43.4 Jiu Si , 9 4th (Zhi Gua 05: Xu, Anticipation) > • tun 6602 130+1344.3(a, the) rump, buttocks, bottom, behind > wu 7173 01.3 43.5 without, with no; deprived of > fu 1958 21.2 44.3 skin, flesh > • qi 0525 02.6 one’s > xing 2754 11.2 walk(ing), advance, movement, progress > ci 6980 07.4 44.3 (is) second-rate, inferior, halting > qie 0803 29.3 44.3 (for) now, the time being; here > • qian 0881 09.2 44.1x in tow, on a leash, to be led; * (the) tethered > yang 7247 34.3 54.6 (as, like) (a, the) sheep, goat; sheep’s > hui 2336 01.6 regret(s), remorse > wang 7034 11.2 (will, would) pass, disappear, dissolve (s) > • wen 7142 128+8 56.6x (but) to hear; listen to > yan 7334 05.2 47.0 (the, this, these) words, talk, theory; said > bu 5379 02.2 is not, no; (still) wants > xin 2748 9+7 47.0 to believe; assurance(ing), comprehension > 43.4x Xiao Xiang (Fan Yao 05.4: waiting in blood, get out of the pit) > S qi one’s > xing progress > ci (is) second-rate > qie now > • wei 7116 45.5 (the) place, position, attitude, dignity > bu 5379 02.2 (is, was) not, in-; im-; less than, [mal-] > dang 6087 05.6x appropriate, proper, suited, [adaptive] > S wen to hear > yan (the, these) words > bu is not > xin comprehension > • cong 6916 21.6x 50.T (quick at, to) hear(ing); clever(ness) > bu 5379 02.2 (but) without; with no; not much; not > ming 4534 17.4 clarity, light, vision, intelligence; clearly > > Michael Lutzeier wrote: > > > > Hello everyone and good morning, > > > > I'd like to share a private reading of myself with those who are > > interested. > > Here's the story: > > My Palm(i.e.Visor- a little handcomputer) crashed severely a couple of > > days ago and nothing could be done to solve the problem. A couple of > > hours at night turned out fruitless. The next morning I called the > > hotline and made a few manoeuvres but nothing solved the problem. > > Finally I had to agree to give my phone number, in order that they call > > me In two weeks(!), when the case would be commented by their american > > collegues. (I'm in Germany as you might have guessed) > > I have to say that I came to relie on that little Computer a lot. I > > track all my readings there, I use it as an astrological clock, and of > > course adresses and dates etc. > > So what should I do? was the simple question. > > I received Hx 43 line 2 and line 4. > > And here is the point where I hope members of the list jump in: > > Line 4 says: no skin at the thighs, walking is difficult. If one would > > let one self lead as a sheep, no remorse. But when one hears these > > words, one will not believe. Wilhelm (roughly translated by myself :-) > > BUT: In further studies I found out I already received this Hx and lines > > seven years before. And I had to *struggle* to get out of this previous > > problem. So I read a couple of other translations (there's nothing wrong > > with straight wenli...) and I found: > > Buttocks without skin. he walks haltingly. A dragged sheep. regrets > > vanish. Hear the words, no belief in them. (Wu Jing-Nuan) > > And even more clearly: With no skin on the buttocks his walking is > > "T'sier-Ts'io" labored. if he leads a sheep, troubles will go away. He > > hears talk, but it is not reliable. (Richard Kunst) > > On the next morning very thoroughly, step by step, I managed to solve > > the problem on my computer. > > So I conclude, that R. Wilhelm mixed up the translation of that > > particular line. And a lot of writers followed him in the mist. (I have > > a couple of books with a translation in the same direction) The german > > writer Frank Fiedeler is one of the exceptions. Even Jou Tsung Hwa sort > > of follows Wilhelm. > > What do you think of that particular Hx and Line 4? > > Any comments would be very welcome. > > > > All the best Michael > > > > and good morning List! ;-) > > > > ===== > > To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org > > from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. > > ===== > To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org > from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ End of hexagram-8-digest V1 #196 ******************************** From owner-hexagram-8-digest@apocalypse.org Fri Jan 26 20:19:07 2001 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id UAA27839 for hexagram-8-digest-outgoing; Fri, 26 Jan 2001 20:19:07 -0500 Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2001 20:19:07 -0500 Message-Id: <200101270119.UAA27839@apocalypse.org> X-Authentication-Warning: apocalypse.org: majordom set sender to owner-hexagram-8-digest@apocalypse.org using -f From: owner-hexagram-8-digest@apocalypse.org (hexagram-8-digest) To: hexagram-8-digest@apocalypse.org Subject: hexagram-8-digest V1 #197 Reply-To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Sender: owner-hexagram-8-digest@apocalypse.org Errors-To: owner-hexagram-8-digest@apocalypse.org Precedence: bulk hexagram-8-digest Friday, January 26 2001 Volume 01 : Number 197 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2001 14:10:49 +0100 From: Michael Lutzeier Subject: Re: HEX8: hx 43 line 4 Hi hilary Hilary Barrett schrieb: > Hello Michael, > > Nice, graphic line, no? (Great fun when interpreting for complete > strangers - 'the oracle says you have no skin on your backside - don't look > at me, I didn't say it...') I really didn`t know where to go... > And if you take the two images together, it > descends into farce... Not really it's just different time qualities. > > The skinless posterior suggests acute discomfort and restlessness - I think > the line is about urgently needing to get on, but finding it awkward. As for > the sheep - as far as I know, it could be a goat or ram. (Help from Chinese > speakers??) It`s a sheep. Like F. Fiedeler comments: " to show one`s flesh and lead a sheep" is an expression known in the historic Chronic `Zhuochuan` meaning to subordinate in order not to face the worst. The sheep was known as a lucky animal. > I think you're bringing the creature on a halter, not being led > like one, and I suspect it may be wilful, also wanting to move - or to > wander off. (In this instance, wanting urgently to do something about the > computer, but not knowing what - and maybe liable to waste time on useless > helplines - 'words not trustworthy'?). On a halter this impulse is kept > balanced - under control, but not halted altogether, so it can be put to > profitable use. > Exactly. > > Quite what the animal represents would depend on what it was and how it > behaves. Does anyone have personal experience with goats, rams and sheep?? > (Did you ever hear of anyone leading a single sheep on a halter? But maybe > the Chinese ones were nearer the wild sort, and had rather more initiative > than ours?) See Zhuochuan mentioned above > > > As for Wilhelm, I think maybe he was misled by the Biblical connotations of > sheep and shepherds. > > What did you make of line 2? > I took it as an description of the night before I called the hotline. And as an overall insurance that things will be well again on. There`s no need to get up and fight for your life in this particular case. > > BTW, when everyone has had their say, how about adding this reading to > www.ichingresources.co.uk? Feel free to add it, you're welcome to. All the best Michael > > > All best wishes, > Hilary > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Michael Lutzeier > To: > Sent: Thursday, January 25, 2001 11:02 PM > Subject: HEX8: hx 43 line 4 > > > Hello everyone and good morning, > > > > I'd like to share a private reading of myself with those who are > > interested. > > Here's the story: > > My Palm(i.e.Visor- a little handcomputer) crashed severely a couple of > > days ago and nothing could be done to solve the problem. A couple of > > hours at night turned out fruitless. The next morning I called the > > hotline and made a few manoeuvres but nothing solved the problem. > > Finally I had to agree to give my phone number, in order that they call > > me In two weeks(!), when the case would be commented by their american > > collegues. (I'm in Germany as you might have guessed) > > I have to say that I came to relie on that little Computer a lot. I > > track all my readings there, I use it as an astrological clock, and of > > course adresses and dates etc. > > So what should I do? was the simple question. > > I received Hx 43 line 2 and line 4. > > And here is the point where I hope members of the list jump in: > > Line 4 says: no skin at the thighs, walking is difficult. If one would > > let one self lead as a sheep, no remorse. But when one hears these > > words, one will not believe. Wilhelm (roughly translated by myself :-) > > BUT: In further studies I found out I already received this Hx and lines > > seven years before. And I had to *struggle* to get out of this previous > > problem. So I read a couple of other translations (there's nothing wrong > > with straight wenli...) and I found: > > Buttocks without skin. he walks haltingly. A dragged sheep. regrets > > vanish. Hear the words, no belief in them. (Wu Jing-Nuan) > > And even more clearly: With no skin on the buttocks his walking is > > "T'sier-Ts'io" labored. if he leads a sheep, troubles will go away. He > > hears talk, but it is not reliable. (Richard Kunst) > > On the next morning very thoroughly, step by step, I managed to solve > > the problem on my computer. > > So I conclude, that R. Wilhelm mixed up the translation of that > > particular line. And a lot of writers followed him in the mist. (I have > > a couple of books with a translation in the same direction) The german > > writer Frank Fiedeler is one of the exceptions. Even Jou Tsung Hwa sort > > of follows Wilhelm. > > What do you think of that particular Hx and Line 4? > > Any comments would be very welcome. > > > > All the best Michael > > > > and good morning List! ;-) > > > > > > > > ===== > > To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org > > from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. > > > > ===== > To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org > from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2001 14:24:44 +0100 From: Michael Lutzeier Subject: Re: HEX8: hx 43 line 4 Hi Lothar, I really like your stunningly simple but effective approach. Alles Gute Michael Autorbis@aol.com schrieb: > Hi, > > hex 43, "break through", line 4, develops into hex 5, waiting. The commentary > of line 4 looks plausible, as somebody, who is eager and willing to "break > through", has naturally trouble to stay in a "waiting" position. > > hex 43, with line 2 + 4, develops in hex 63. Hex 63 has a different meaning > than hex. 5, so the text of line 4 is meaningless in this situation (my > humble opinion). (Imho) You have to construct a new "double line > interpretation" by yourself. In this case I would suggest, that the > motion-asking, but hindered 4th line, which "must wait", is helped by the > "revolutionary" second line (43, 2nd line, develops in hex 49 = > "revolution"), and the result of this stronger energy is neither 5, Waiting > nor 49, Revolution but hex 63, Completion. > > Lothar > > ===== > To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org > from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2001 14:45:41 -0000 From: "Hilary Barrett" Subject: Re: HEX8: hx 43 line 4 Hi Michael, I like your perspective on this (in your other posts, too). Who is Fiedeler? What did he write, and does it contain more useful nuggets like that one? And where can I find it? (BTW, English 'chronic' = 'chronisch'. I think the word you're looking for is 'chronicle'!) (...and thank heaven this mailing list isn't in German, so you can't see what state mine's in :-)) All best wishes, Hilary - ----- Original Message ----- From: Michael Lutzeier To: Sent: Friday, January 26, 2001 1:10 PM Subject: Re: HEX8: hx 43 line 4 > Hi hilary > > Hilary Barrett schrieb: > > > Hello Michael, > > > > Nice, graphic line, no? (Great fun when interpreting for complete > > strangers - 'the oracle says you have no skin on your backside - don't look > > at me, I didn't say it...') > > I really didn`t know where to go... > > > > > And if you take the two images together, it > > descends into farce... > > Not really it's just different time qualities. > > > > > > The skinless posterior suggests acute discomfort and restlessness - I think > > the line is about urgently needing to get on, but finding it awkward. As for > > the sheep - as far as I know, it could be a goat or ram. (Help from Chinese > > speakers??) > > It`s a sheep. Like F. Fiedeler comments: " to show one`s flesh and lead a > sheep" is an expression known in the historic Chronic `Zhuochuan` > meaning to subordinate in order not to face the worst. The sheep was known as a > lucky animal. > > > > I think you're bringing the creature on a halter, not being led > > like one, and I suspect it may be wilful, also wanting to move - or to > > wander off. (In this instance, wanting urgently to do something about the > > computer, but not knowing what - and maybe liable to waste time on useless > > helplines - 'words not trustworthy'?). On a halter this impulse is kept > > balanced - under control, but not halted altogether, so it can be put to > > profitable use. > > > > Exactly. > > > > > Quite what the animal represents would depend on what it was and how it > > behaves. Does anyone have personal experience with goats, rams and sheep?? > > (Did you ever hear of anyone leading a single sheep on a halter? But maybe > > the Chinese ones were nearer the wild sort, and had rather more initiative > > than ours?) > > See Zhuochuan mentioned above > > > > > > > As for Wilhelm, I think maybe he was misled by the Biblical connotations of > > sheep and shepherds. > > > > What did you make of line 2? > > > > I took it as an description of the night before I called the hotline. And as an > overall insurance that things will be well again on. There`s no need to get up > and fight for your life in this particular case. > > > > > BTW, when everyone has had their say, how about adding this reading to > > www.ichingresources.co.uk? > > Feel free to add it, you're welcome to. > All the best Michael > > > > > > > > All best wishes, > > Hilary > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Michael Lutzeier > > To: > > Sent: Thursday, January 25, 2001 11:02 PM > > Subject: HEX8: hx 43 line 4 > > > > > Hello everyone and good morning, > > > > > > I'd like to share a private reading of myself with those who are > > > interested. > > > Here's the story: > > > My Palm(i.e.Visor- a little handcomputer) crashed severely a couple of > > > days ago and nothing could be done to solve the problem. A couple of > > > hours at night turned out fruitless. The next morning I called the > > > hotline and made a few manoeuvres but nothing solved the problem. > > > Finally I had to agree to give my phone number, in order that they call > > > me In two weeks(!), when the case would be commented by their american > > > collegues. (I'm in Germany as you might have guessed) > > > I have to say that I came to relie on that little Computer a lot. I > > > track all my readings there, I use it as an astrological clock, and of > > > course adresses and dates etc. > > > So what should I do? was the simple question. > > > I received Hx 43 line 2 and line 4. > > > And here is the point where I hope members of the list jump in: > > > Line 4 says: no skin at the thighs, walking is difficult. If one would > > > let one self lead as a sheep, no remorse. But when one hears these > > > words, one will not believe. Wilhelm (roughly translated by myself :-) > > > BUT: In further studies I found out I already received this Hx and lines > > > seven years before. And I had to *struggle* to get out of this previous > > > problem. So I read a couple of other translations (there's nothing wrong > > > with straight wenli...) and I found: > > > Buttocks without skin. he walks haltingly. A dragged sheep. regrets > > > vanish. Hear the words, no belief in them. (Wu Jing-Nuan) > > > And even more clearly: With no skin on the buttocks his walking is > > > "T'sier-Ts'io" labored. if he leads a sheep, troubles will go away. He > > > hears talk, but it is not reliable. (Richard Kunst) > > > On the next morning very thoroughly, step by step, I managed to solve > > > the problem on my computer. > > > So I conclude, that R. Wilhelm mixed up the translation of that > > > particular line. And a lot of writers followed him in the mist. (I have > > > a couple of books with a translation in the same direction) The german > > > writer Frank Fiedeler is one of the exceptions. Even Jou Tsung Hwa sort > > > of follows Wilhelm. > > > What do you think of that particular Hx and Line 4? > > > Any comments would be very welcome. > > > > > > All the best Michael > > > > > > and good morning List! ;-) > > > > > > > > > > > > ===== > > > To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org > > > from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. > > > > > > > ===== > > To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org > > from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. > > > > ===== > To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org > from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. > ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2001 12:08:02 EST From: Aglie@aol.com Subject: Re: HEX8: hx 43 line 4 In a message dated 1/25/2001 6:07:23 PM Eastern Standard Time, mlutzeier@planet-interkom.de writes: << So I read a couple of other translations (there's nothing wrong with straight wenli...) and I found: Buttocks without skin. he walks haltingly. A dragged sheep. regrets vanish. Hear the words, no belief in them. (Wu Jing-Nuan) And even more clearly: With no skin on the buttocks his walking is "T'sier-Ts'io" labored. if he leads a sheep, troubles will go away. He hears talk, but it is not reliable. (Richard Kunst) On the next morning very thoroughly, step by step, I managed to solve the problem on my computer. So I conclude, that R. Wilhelm mixed up the translation of that particular line. And a lot of writers followed him in the mist. (I have a couple of books with a translation in the same direction) >> The variant translations raise a critical problem in Hx of I Ching interpretation. Kunst's and Rutt's translations are intended to capture the original meaning of the Zhou text without the Confucianization which occured later. Rutt translates: "No plumpness on the haunches. It staggers. If a sheep is brought, the ill is unwrought. Having complaints: not to be believed." Kunst's is closer to Wilhelm. Actually, Legge's is clearest: "The fourth line, undivided, shows one from whose buttocks the skin has been stripped, and who walks slowly and with difficulty. (If he could act) like a sheep led (after its companions) occasion for repentance would disappear. But though he hears these words, he will not believe them." Rutt, though I think his work is extremely valuable, has an at times antagonistic attitude toward the Zhouyi and finds in it matter relating to human sacrifice. He tends to feel that its original meaning is remote from us as shows in his translation. Wilhelm is a committed believer and for all his skills seems to have had no sense of the meaning of I Ching apart from its Qing interpretation. Yet Legge also was antagonistic, yet makes it coherent. What interests me is how the Zhouyi began to be interpreted in less primitive terms. Certainly it was by the time of the Great Treatise and Wang Bi. But when did this start and how? My interpretation, FWIW, would be that doing without the Palm Pilot is like walking without skin on one's buttucks and that one needs to be led along to solve the problem. However this is not what happened. I assume that line 4 was changing. Were there others and what hexagram did it change into? Last comment: walking without skin on buttocks sounds like a proverb - like modern one of "acting like he has a stick up his a__". I wonder if this is not literal but a proverb now lost - a difficult situation is like walking without skin on one's butt. May all sentient beings be happy! Geoffrey ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2001 18:19:28 +0100 From: Michael Lutzeier Subject: Re: HEX8: hx 43 line 4 Hi Hilary Hilary Barrett schrieb: > Hi Michael, > I like your perspective on this (in your other posts, too). > Who is Fiedeler? What did he write, and does it contain more useful nuggets > like that one? And where can I find it? > Frank Fiedeler is a german author, born 1939, studied sinologie (? I don`t know the english term for that, the chinese languages)and scientifically comparing religions, lived in Taipeh, there he was introduced by some taistic master into the YiJing. Since then he published a couple of writings on the Y. He lives as a freelancing author and translator in Berlin. That is what the back of the book says... I only read two books of him, one "Yin und Yang" at Dumont and "YiJing, das Buch der Wandlungen, erstmalig von Grund auf entschlüsselt und neu aus dem chinesischen Urtext übersetzt" at Diederichs. The first one is more or less included in the latter. I doubt that you can get them in english, so here's what I find remarkable: The new and nearly revolutionary thing with Fiedelers approach is the introduction of the *Moon* (hi LiSe, you know about that, don't you?). He sees the trigrams like descriptions of different moonphases, therefore the Hx's like a progression of phases. He introduces a Graph going with that. I'll try to describe it: (Best thing would be if you'd sketch it, while you're reading on)A circle with phases, exactly like the bagua of earlier heaven. So you have on top/north the trigram of earth, representing new moon; bottom/south the trigram of heaven/full moon, at the sides east/west both the half moons Tg fire/vanishing halfmoon and Tg water/growing halfmoon. The rest is in between (get on with it..) Now we take a Hx like say #42 ;-) The first Line results in( and that's the hard one to understand) Tg Dui/marsh. why that?? Because if you take the 1st line as the middle line of a Tg you'll have the 2nd of the Hx as the top of the Tg, and the 6th of the Hx as the bottom of the Tg !! So far so clear, hopefully ? Then proceeding is easy. 2nd line results in Zhen/thunder 3rd line is Kun/earth, 4th is Gen/mountain, 5th is Sun/Wind/wood, and for 6th line taken as the middle one with 5th used as bottom and 1st as top you'll get..... qian/heaven. You just have to see the Hx as an never ending circle more than 1to6 thing. The following is only clear if you had made a sketch. Because now if you connect the points of the different resulting Tg's according to their order ( 1 to 6)you'll get a Graph (like Fiedeler calls it) something like a picture, an idea in the best greek sense. In the of#42 case we have sth. like a vessel a container with an opening at the bottom-right side. Fiedeler proceeds interpreting these Graphs. There are a couple of Hx with the same Graph as #42 i.e. #11, #12,#31,#32 and of course #41.Each one them has its opening at a different side... So you can see it's quite interesting this F. Fiedeler. On the actual translation side of things (wenli as the other side of the same coin) Fiedeler has a couple of changes to announce, and in interpreting the text he always sticks close the "moon-idea" which is difficult to describe. As for single words, as far I can judge, he relies on R.Kunst a lot. You know that? Kunst's translation is available in english via UMI dissertation services www.bellhoward.inforlearning.com or 1-800-521-0600. It's excellent. (sigh, another one :-) I find the whole "moon-idea" quite intruiging, cause first things what early human beings became aware of was certainly the changing of the sky especially the day/night and in consequence the moon.So you could see the early YiJing as a *calendar*. An idea which I already discovered, when I read about the origins of chess (!) in Mesopotamia! There would be lots of to be discovered on that field... > (BTW, English 'chronic' = 'chronisch'. I think the word you're looking for > is 'chronicle'!) > (...and thank heaven this mailing list isn't in German, so you can't see > what state mine's in :-)) Lol But you seem to know a little though, may be you could even read a page of Fiedeler?! All teh best Michael > > All best wishes, > Hilary > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Michael Lutzeier > To: > Sent: Friday, January 26, 2001 1:10 PM > Subject: Re: HEX8: hx 43 line 4 > > > Hi hilary > > > > Hilary Barrett schrieb: > > > > > Hello Michael, > > > > > > Nice, graphic line, no? (Great fun when interpreting for complete > > > strangers - 'the oracle says you have no skin on your backside - don't > look > > > at me, I didn't say it...') > > > > I really didn`t know where to go... > > > > > > > > > And if you take the two images together, it > > > descends into farce... > > > > Not really it's just different time qualities. > > > > > > > > > > The skinless posterior suggests acute discomfort and restlessness - I > think > > > the line is about urgently needing to get on, but finding it awkward. As > for > > > the sheep - as far as I know, it could be a goat or ram. (Help from > Chinese > > > speakers??) > > > > It`s a sheep. Like F. Fiedeler comments: " to show one`s flesh and lead a > > sheep" is an expression known in the historic Chronic `Zhuochuan` > > meaning to subordinate in order not to face the worst. The sheep was known > as a > > lucky animal. > > > > > > > I think you're bringing the creature on a halter, not being led > > > like one, and I suspect it may be wilful, also wanting to move - or to > > > wander off. (In this instance, wanting urgently to do something about > the > > > computer, but not knowing what - and maybe liable to waste time on > useless > > > helplines - 'words not trustworthy'?). On a halter this impulse is kept > > > balanced - under control, but not halted altogether, so it can be put to > > > profitable use. > > > > > > > Exactly. > > > > > > > > Quite what the animal represents would depend on what it was and how it > > > behaves. Does anyone have personal experience with goats, rams and > sheep?? > > > (Did you ever hear of anyone leading a single sheep on a halter? But > maybe > > > the Chinese ones were nearer the wild sort, and had rather more > initiative > > > than ours?) > > > > See Zhuochuan mentioned above > > > > > > > > > > > As for Wilhelm, I think maybe he was misled by the Biblical connotations > of > > > sheep and shepherds. > > > > > > What did you make of line 2? > > > > > > > I took it as an description of the night before I called the hotline. And > as an > > overall insurance that things will be well again on. There`s no need to > get up > > and fight for your life in this particular case. > > > > > > > > BTW, when everyone has had their say, how about adding this reading to > > > www.ichingresources.co.uk? > > > > Feel free to add it, you're welcome to. > > All the best Michael > > > > > > > > > > > > > All best wishes, > > > Hilary > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: Michael Lutzeier > > > To: > > > Sent: Thursday, January 25, 2001 11:02 PM > > > Subject: HEX8: hx 43 line 4 > > > > > > > Hello everyone and good morning, > > > > > > > > I'd like to share a private reading of myself with those who are > > > > interested. > > > > Here's the story: > > > > My Palm(i.e.Visor- a little handcomputer) crashed severely a couple of > > > > days ago and nothing could be done to solve the problem. A couple of > > > > hours at night turned out fruitless. The next morning I called the > > > > hotline and made a few manoeuvres but nothing solved the problem. > > > > Finally I had to agree to give my phone number, in order that they > call > > > > me In two weeks(!), when the case would be commented by their american > > > > collegues. (I'm in Germany as you might have guessed) > > > > I have to say that I came to relie on that little Computer a lot. I > > > > track all my readings there, I use it as an astrological clock, and of > > > > course adresses and dates etc. > > > > So what should I do? was the simple question. > > > > I received Hx 43 line 2 and line 4. > > > > And here is the point where I hope members of the list jump in: > > > > Line 4 says: no skin at the thighs, walking is difficult. If one would > > > > let one self lead as a sheep, no remorse. But when one hears these > > > > words, one will not believe. Wilhelm (roughly translated by myself :-) > > > > BUT: In further studies I found out I already received this Hx and > lines > > > > seven years before. And I had to *struggle* to get out of this > previous > > > > problem. So I read a couple of other translations (there's nothing > wrong > > > > with straight wenli...) and I found: > > > > Buttocks without skin. he walks haltingly. A dragged sheep. regrets > > > > vanish. Hear the words, no belief in them. (Wu Jing-Nuan) > > > > And even more clearly: With no skin on the buttocks his walking is > > > > "T'sier-Ts'io" labored. if he leads a sheep, troubles will go away. He > > > > hears talk, but it is not reliable. (Richard Kunst) > > > > On the next morning very thoroughly, step by step, I managed to solve > > > > the problem on my computer. > > > > So I conclude, that R. Wilhelm mixed up the translation of that > > > > particular line. And a lot of writers followed him in the mist. (I > have > > > > a couple of books with a translation in the same direction) The german > > > > writer Frank Fiedeler is one of the exceptions. Even Jou Tsung Hwa > sort > > > > of follows Wilhelm. > > > > What do you think of that particular Hx and Line 4? > > > > Any comments would be very welcome. > > > > > > > > All the best Michael > > > > > > > > and good morning List! ;-) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ===== > > > > To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to > majordomo@apocalypse.org > > > > from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. > > > > > > > > > > ===== > > > To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to > majordomo@apocalypse.org > > > from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. > > > > > > > > ===== > > To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org > > from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. > > > > ===== > To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org > from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2001 18:29:59 +0100 From: Michael Lutzeier Subject: Re: HEX8: hx 43 line 4 Hi Geoffrey, Aglie@aol.com schrieb: .... > > My interpretation, FWIW, would be that doing without the Palm Pilot is like > walking without skin on one's buttucks and that one needs to be led along to > solve the problem. However this is not what happened. I assume that line 4 > was changing. Were there others and what hexagram did it change into? Yes as wrote in my first email, I received 43 lines 2 +4 resulting in 63 > > > Last comment: walking without skin on buttocks sounds like a proverb - like > modern one of "acting like he has a stick up his a__". I wonder if this is > not literal but a proverb now lost - a difficult situation is like walking > without skin on one's butt. No skin on the buttocks probably means: Having been punished/beaten. I never got #43 with only line 4 changing until now, so maybe I have back up on my comments for that particular line All the best and thx for contributing Rutt's Translation! Michael > > > May all sentient beings be happy! > > Geoffrey > > ===== > To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org > from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2001 18:43:29 +0100 From: Michael Lutzeier Subject: Re: HEX8: hx 43 line 4 And Geoffrey, Aglie@aol.com schrieb: > The variant translations raise a critical problem in Hx of I Ching > interpretation. Kunst's and Rutt's translations are intended to capture the > original meaning of the Zhou text without the Confucianization which occured > later. Rutt translates: "No plumpness on the haunches. It staggers. If a > sheep is brought, the ill is unwrought. Having complaints: not to be > believed." Kunst's is closer to Wilhelm. ???? Here is Wilhelm:There is no skin on his thighs, And walking comes hard. If a man were to let himself be led like a sheep, Remorse would disappear. But if these words are heard They will not be believed. Here is Kunst:With no skin on the buttocks his walking is "T'sier-Ts'io" labored. if he leads a sheep, troubles will go away. He hears talk, but it is not reliable. I mean, this diametral opposite! At least the 2nd half of it. There are not many places in the YiJing where translations differ so widely, are there? Actually this would be worth a thread! "widely differing text interpretations" > Actually, Legge's is clearest: "The > fourth line, undivided, shows one from whose buttocks the skin has been > stripped, and who walks slowly and with difficulty. (If he could act) like a > sheep led (after its companions) occasion for repentance would disappear. But > though he hears these words, he will not believe them." Legge Imho is on the same side as Wilhelm in that case. We're all on the same journey anyway, I might assume. All the best Michael > > ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2001 16:43:18 EST From: Aglie@aol.com Subject: Re: HEX8: hx 43 line 4 In a message dated 1/26/2001 12:35:25 PM Eastern Standard Time, mlutzeier@planet-interkom.de writes: << Last comment: walking without skin on buttocks sounds like a proverb - like > modern one of "acting like he has a stick up his a__". I wonder if this is > not literal but a proverb now lost - a difficult situation is like walking > without skin on one's butt. No skin on the buttocks probably means: Having been punished/beaten. >> This may well be what "without skin on buttocks" means. However it could simply be proverb refering to a hypothetical situation, as the modern example I gave above. Some other enigmatic lines in the I may also be proverbial. I suppose my point really is to raise question of how much I refers to unpleasant things like corporal punishment and human sacrifice. Rutt thinks it does and for a while I believed him but now am rethinking the matter. One can go farther in search of an interpretation. Thin buttocks could represent thinness due to lack of food, for example. It does seem that later versions tend to give less unpleasant interpretations. In general Chinese art does not show suffering and I wonder when this sensibility arose. Any one else have thoughts on this? May all sentient beings be happy! Geoffrey ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2001 01:11:47 -0000 From: "Hilary Barrett" Subject: Re: HEX8: hx 43 line 4 Hi Michael, Thank you for your efforts to make all that intelligible! I worry about things that are 'erstmalig von Grund auf entschlüsselt' as the I Ching seems to have its deepest secrets unlocked for the first time with alarming regularity :-). But the moon idea is certainly intriguing - also the other astronomical observations, eg H55. Lots of leaps of the imagination are called for - I made some of my own at www.onlineClarity.co.uk/book_of_changes.html (this doubles as a doorway for search engines and introduction to the site, so it may seem rather strange &/or vapid in places!). As with interpreting the menagerie of animals, the question is what role these things would have filled in people's minds, when the changing seasons, the behaviour of animals, etc, weren't just on the non-centrally-heated side of the double-glazing. (Maybe I should borrow a sheep from the farm next door and try to lead it on a halter...) Certainly I could read a page (or even a book :-) of Fiedeler. (What I couldn't do is hold a fluent conversation about it without constant recourse to a dictionary!) Sinologie= sinology, btw. Makes you wonder why you bother learning foreign languages... All best wishes, Hilary - ----- Original Message ----- From: Michael Lutzeier To: Sent: Friday, January 26, 2001 5:19 PM Subject: Re: HEX8: hx 43 line 4 > Hi Hilary > > Hilary Barrett schrieb: > > > Hi Michael, > > I like your perspective on this (in your other posts, too). > > Who is Fiedeler? What did he write, and does it contain more useful nuggets > > like that one? And where can I find it? > > > > Frank Fiedeler is a german author, born 1939, studied sinologie (? I don`t know > the english term for that, the chinese languages)and scientifically comparing > religions, lived in Taipeh, there he was introduced by some taistic master into > the YiJing. Since then he published a couple of writings on the Y. He lives as > a freelancing author and translator in Berlin. > That is what the back of the book says... > I only read two books of him, one "Yin und Yang" at Dumont and "YiJing, das > Buch der Wandlungen, erstmalig von Grund auf entschlüsselt und neu aus dem > chinesischen Urtext übersetzt" at Diederichs. The first one is more or less > included in the latter. > I doubt that you can get them in english, so here's what I find remarkable: > The new and nearly revolutionary thing with Fiedelers approach is the > introduction of the *Moon* (hi LiSe, you know about that, don't you?). He sees > the trigrams like descriptions of different moonphases, therefore the Hx's like > a progression of phases. He introduces a Graph going with that. I'll try to > describe it: (Best thing would be if you'd sketch it, while you're reading on)A > circle with phases, exactly like the bagua of earlier heaven. So you have on > top/north the trigram of earth, representing new moon; bottom/south the trigram > of heaven/full moon, at the sides east/west both the half moons Tg > fire/vanishing halfmoon and Tg water/growing halfmoon. The rest is in between > (get on with it..) > Now we take a Hx like say #42 ;-) > The first Line results in( and that's the hard one to understand) Tg Dui/marsh. > why that?? Because if you take the 1st line as the middle line of a Tg you'll > have the 2nd of the Hx as the top of the Tg, and the 6th of the Hx as the > bottom of the Tg !! So far so clear, hopefully ? Then proceeding is easy. 2nd > line results in Zhen/thunder 3rd line is Kun/earth, 4th is Gen/mountain, 5th is > Sun/Wind/wood, and for 6th line taken as the middle one with 5th used as bottom > and 1st as top you'll get..... qian/heaven. You just have to see the Hx as an > never ending circle more than 1to6 thing. The following is only clear if you > had made a sketch. Because now if you connect the points of the different > resulting Tg's according to their order ( 1 to 6)you'll get a Graph (like > Fiedeler calls it) something like a picture, an idea in the best greek sense. > In the of#42 case we have sth. like a vessel a container with an opening at the > bottom-right side. Fiedeler proceeds interpreting these Graphs. There are a > couple of Hx with the same Graph as #42 i.e. #11, #12,#31,#32 and of course > #41.Each one them has its opening at a different side... > So you can see it's quite interesting this F. Fiedeler. On the actual > translation side of things (wenli as the other side of the same coin) Fiedeler > has a couple of changes to announce, and in interpreting the text he always > sticks close the "moon-idea" which is difficult to describe. As for single > words, as far I can judge, he relies on R.Kunst a lot. You know that? Kunst's > translation is available in english via UMI dissertation services > www.bellhoward.inforlearning.com or 1-800-521-0600. It's excellent. (sigh, > another one :-) > > I find the whole "moon-idea" quite intruiging, cause first things what early > human beings became aware of was certainly the changing of the sky especially > the day/night and in consequence the moon.So you could see the early YiJing as > a *calendar*. An idea which I already discovered, when I read about the origins > of chess (!) in Mesopotamia! There would be lots of to be discovered on that > field... > > > (BTW, English 'chronic' = 'chronisch'. I think the word you're looking for > > is 'chronicle'!) > > (...and thank heaven this mailing list isn't in German, so you can't see > > what state mine's in :-)) > > Lol > But you seem to know a little though, may be you could even read a page of > Fiedeler?! > All teh best > Michael > > > > > All best wishes, > > Hilary > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Michael Lutzeier > > To: > > Sent: Friday, January 26, 2001 1:10 PM > > Subject: Re: HEX8: hx 43 line 4 > > > > > Hi hilary > > > > > > Hilary Barrett schrieb: > > > > > > > Hello Michael, > > > > > > > > Nice, graphic line, no? (Great fun when interpreting for complete > > > > strangers - 'the oracle says you have no skin on your backside - don't > > look > > > > at me, I didn't say it...') > > > > > > I really didn`t know where to go... > > > > > > > > > > > > > And if you take the two images together, it > > > > descends into farce... > > > > > > Not really it's just different time qualities. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The skinless posterior suggests acute discomfort and restlessness - I > > think > > > > the line is about urgently needing to get on, but finding it awkward. As > > for > > > > the sheep - as far as I know, it could be a goat or ram. (Help from > > Chinese > > > > speakers??) > > > > > > It`s a sheep. Like F. Fiedeler comments: " to show one`s flesh and lead a > > > sheep" is an expression known in the historic Chronic `Zhuochuan` > > > meaning to subordinate in order not to face the worst. The sheep was known > > as a > > > lucky animal. > > > > > > > > > > I think you're bringing the creature on a halter, not being led > > > > like one, and I suspect it may be wilful, also wanting to move - or to > > > > wander off. (In this instance, wanting urgently to do something about > > the > > > > computer, but not knowing what - and maybe liable to waste time on > > useless > > > > helplines - 'words not trustworthy'?). On a halter this impulse is kept > > > > balanced - under control, but not halted altogether, so it can be put to > > > > profitable use. > > > > > > > > > > Exactly. > > > > > > > > > > > Quite what the animal represents would depend on what it was and how it > > > > behaves. Does anyone have personal experience with goats, rams and > > sheep?? > > > > (Did you ever hear of anyone leading a single sheep on a halter? But > > maybe > > > > the Chinese ones were nearer the wild sort, and had rather more > > initiative > > > > than ours?) > > > > > > See Zhuochuan mentioned above > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > As for Wilhelm, I think maybe he was misled by the Biblical connotations > > of > > > > sheep and shepherds. > > > > > > > > What did you make of line 2? > > > > > > > > > > I took it as an description of the night before I called the hotline. And > > as an > > > overall insurance that things will be well again on. There`s no need to > > get up > > > and fight for your life in this particular case. > > > > > > > > > > > BTW, when everyone has had their say, how about adding this reading to > > > > www.ichingresources.co.uk? > > > > > > Feel free to add it, you're welcome to. > > > All the best Michael > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > All best wishes, > > > > Hilary > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > From: Michael Lutzeier > > > > To: > > > > Sent: Thursday, January 25, 2001 11:02 PM > > > > Subject: HEX8: hx 43 line 4 > > > > > > > > > Hello everyone and good morning, > > > > > > > > > > I'd like to share a private reading of myself with those who are > > > > > interested. > > > > > Here's the story: > > > > > My Palm(i.e.Visor- a little handcomputer) crashed severely a couple of > > > > > days ago and nothing could be done to solve the problem. A couple of > > > > > hours at night turned out fruitless. The next morning I called the > > > > > hotline and made a few manoeuvres but nothing solved the problem. > > > > > Finally I had to agree to give my phone number, in order that they > > call > > > > > me In two weeks(!), when the case would be commented by their american > > > > > collegues. (I'm in Germany as you might have guessed) > > > > > I have to say that I came to relie on that little Computer a lot. I > > > > > track all my readings there, I use it as an astrological clock, and of > > > > > course adresses and dates etc. > > > > > So what should I do? was the simple question. > > > > > I received Hx 43 line 2 and line 4. > > > > > And here is the point where I hope members of the list jump in: > > > > > Line 4 says: no skin at the thighs, walking is difficult. If one would > > > > > let one self lead as a sheep, no remorse. But when one hears these > > > > > words, one will not believe. Wilhelm (roughly translated by myself :-) > > > > > BUT: In further studies I found out I already received this Hx and > > lines > > > > > seven years before. And I had to *struggle* to get out of this > > previous > > > > > problem. So I read a couple of other translations (there's nothing > > wrong > > > > > with straight wenli...) and I found: > > > > > Buttocks without skin. he walks haltingly. A dragged sheep. regrets > > > > > vanish. Hear the words, no belief in them. (Wu Jing-Nuan) > > > > > And even more clearly: With no skin on the buttocks his walking is > > > > > "T'sier-Ts'io" labored. if he leads a sheep, troubles will go away. He > > > > > hears talk, but it is not reliable. (Richard Kunst) > > > > > On the next morning very thoroughly, step by step, I managed to solve > > > > > the problem on my computer. > > > > > So I conclude, that R. Wilhelm mixed up the translation of that > > > > > particular line. And a lot of writers followed him in the mist. (I > > have > > > > > a couple of books with a translation in the same direction) The german > > > > > writer Frank Fiedeler is one of the exceptions. Even Jou Tsung Hwa > > sort > > > > > of follows Wilhelm. > > > > > What do you think of that particular Hx and Line 4? > > > > > Any comments would be very welcome. > > > > > > > > > > All the best Michael > > > > > > > > > > and good morning List! ;-) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ===== > > > > > To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to > > majordomo@apocalypse.org > > > > > from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. > > > > > > > > > > > > > ===== > > > > To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to > > majordomo@apocalypse.org > > > > from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. > > > > > > > > > > > > ===== > > > To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org > > > from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. > > > > > > > ===== > > To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org > > from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. > > > > ===== > To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org > from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. > ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ End of hexagram-8-digest V1 #197 ********************************