From owner-hexagram-8-digest@apocalypse.org Thu Apr 5 00:19:31 2001 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by apocalypse.org (8.11.2/8.11.0) id f354JVX30528 for hexagram-8-digest-outgoing; Thu, 5 Apr 2001 00:19:31 -0400 Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2001 00:19:31 -0400 Message-Id: <200104050419.f354JVX30528@apocalypse.org> X-Authentication-Warning: apocalypse.org: majordom set sender to owner-hexagram-8-digest@apocalypse.org using -f From: owner-hexagram-8-digest@apocalypse.org (hexagram-8-digest) To: hexagram-8-digest@apocalypse.org Subject: hexagram-8-digest V1 #198 Reply-To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Sender: owner-hexagram-8-digest@apocalypse.org Errors-To: owner-hexagram-8-digest@apocalypse.org Precedence: bulk hexagram-8-digest Thursday, April 5 2001 Volume 01 : Number 198 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2001 16:18:28 -0700 From: bradford Subject: HEX8: hx 43 line 4 Sorry, but I still think it's no more complicated than simply getting your ass whipped. And if you look at 44.3, and remember at the same time the subject of the gua, the ass whipping is delivered by none other than the powerful maiden. Regrets, but a night to remember. Aglie@aol.com wrote: > > In a message dated 1/26/2001 12:35:25 PM Eastern Standard Time, > mlutzeier@planet-interkom.de writes: > > << Last comment: walking without skin on buttocks sounds like a proverb - > like > > modern one of "acting like he has a stick up his a__". I wonder if this is > > not literal but a proverb now lost - a difficult situation is like walking > > without skin on one's butt. > > No skin on the buttocks probably means: Having been punished/beaten. > >> > This may well be what "without skin on buttocks" means. However it could > simply be proverb refering to a hypothetical situation, as the modern > example I gave above. Some other enigmatic lines in the I may also be > proverbial. I suppose my point really is to raise question of how much I > refers to unpleasant things like corporal punishment and human sacrifice. > Rutt thinks it does and for a while I believed him but now am rethinking the > matter. > One can go farther in search of an interpretation. Thin buttocks could > represent thinness due to lack of food, for example. It does seem that later > versions tend to give less unpleasant interpretations. In general Chinese art > does not show suffering and I wonder when this sensibility arose. > > Any one else have thoughts on this? > > May all sentient beings be happy! > Geoffrey > > ===== > To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org > from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2001 09:44:45 +0100 From: "Marianne.Goeppel" Subject: Re: HEX8: Gongxi facai! And Gongxi facai for you, Boyler! - -----Ursprngliche Nachricht----- Von: Robert Matusan - Boyler An: Gesendet: Mittwoch, 24. Januar 2001 23:39 Betreff: Re: HEX8: Gongxi facai! > Hi Marianne. > > < Now, what does this one mean! > Please translate for the non-chinese (and non-?) speaking.>> > > Gongxi facai! is one of Chinese New (Lunar) Year congratilation. Litterary > "gongxi" mean "congratulation", and "facai" mean "get rich". But we could > say it mean "wish you wealth and happyness". > > Wansui! > Boyler > > > > ===== > To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org > from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. > > ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2001 13:52:06 EST From: Aglie@aol.com Subject: Re: HEX8: hx 43 line 4 In a message dated 1/26/2001 10:20:45 PM Eastern Standard Time, bradford@independence.net writes: << Sorry, but I still think it's no more complicated than simply getting your ass whipped. And if you look at 44.3, and remember at the same time the subject of the gua, the ass whipping is delivered by none other than the powerful maiden. Regrets, but a night to remember. >> You are onto something important. The first documented instance of S&M in the early Western Zhou. ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2001 08:36:36 +0100 From: "Postmaster AHeyboer" Subject: Re: HEX8: hx 43 line 4 Hi everybody, (and wishing Robert's gongxi facai to everyone), I have been so busy that I could not even read mails. But here I am falling right in the middle of new Yi-possibilities. And handcomputer possibilities! They all say their product has 'power', if they described it as the power of a SM lady, I guess the handheld-sales would soar! And the same with the Yi-copies, just imagine the beautiful cover, with a lady in (a tiny bit of) leather with a whip. I like Fiedeler a lot. I was convinced for a long time that Bi (name of hex. 22) was a flower and had nothing to do with cowries, and in Fiedeler I found the original character. I was right! Later I found it in Schuessler too, but Fiedeler had won my heart. I have those Sabian Symbols, and for 43.4 it says "a drowning man rescued", that looks like being led like a sheep, rather than leading it. But I guess old Chinese proverbs are more proof, and what Fiedeler says is very convincing, 'subordinate in order not to face the worst'. Sheep in a flock all follow the others, but leading one is difficult, they are very stubborn and difficult to 'tame' (however tame they look). I think it describes what Michael did, mending his computer slowly and 'step by step '. It is not like hex.5, but if you look at hex.5 line 4, it fits: do not wait in the trouble but get out. 43.2 to 49.2: No use to get up in the middle of the night, but the next day was maybe a Si-day (snake-day, day of renewal and revolution)? Would be interesting to find out. January 18 was one. But Si-day can also mean it was the right moment for change and renewal for you and the computer, regardless of Snake-days. And about German, I am of Swiss origin, reading German books and talking something like it for years, but writing does not 'flow', I have to think about every word. So Hilary: reading it without having any such background is already quite an accomplishment . LiSe Book of the moon www.aheyboer.com postmaster@aheyboer.com - ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Saturday, January 27, 2001 7:52 PM Subject: Re: HEX8: hx 43 line 4 > In a message dated 1/26/2001 10:20:45 PM Eastern Standard Time, > bradford@independence.net writes: > > << > Sorry, but I still think it's no more complicated than simply getting > your ass whipped. And if you look at 44.3, and remember at the same > time the subject of the gua, the ass whipping is delivered by none other > than the powerful maiden. Regrets, but a night to remember. > >> > You are onto something important. The first documented instance of S&M in the > early Western Zhou. > > > ===== > To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org > from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. > ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2001 23:15:05 -0500 From: "Dr R. Butler" Subject: Re: HEX8: Wangjiatai Hi All, Late last year Harmen offered a .pdf version of Edward Shaughnessy's Wangjiatai Guizang article. For anyone who asked for a copy, it was quite interesting. I got in touch with Ed for a couple of questions, and asked for a copy of one of the references listing the Hexagram names for Zhou Yi, Mawangdui, and Guizang. Its quite interesting, if you study the Names. I have magnified (x2)and scanned it as 3 .gif images. If you are interested, I'd be happy to forward them by email. Let me know by private email. All the best, Rhett >Hi everyone, > ... >And now for something completely different: > >Are you all familiar with the article of Edward Shaughnessy about the >Wangjiatai Guizang, published last year? I find it quite exciting that the >Guizang really seems te have existed. Maybe the Lianshan will be dug up too >someday. For those who don't have the article, please let me know (by private >mail, not through the H-8 list), and I'll send you a PDF-file version of it. > >All the best, > >Harmen. >------------------------------------------------------- >Visit my Yi Jing Page at > >http://home.wanadoo.nl/harmen.mesker! > >With: >- Links to interesting Yi Jing sites >- pictures of Richard Wilhelm and James Legge >- 22(!) fonts with the Chinese characters of the > hexagram names >- nice Yi Jing backgrounds for your desktop >- een Nederlandse I Tjing pagina (a Dutch Yi Jing page) >- recommended books >- more, more, more! >------------------------------------------------------- ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 12:10:57 -0500 From: "Dr R. Butler" Subject: HEX8: Hexagram Names and Trigrams Hexagram Names and Trigrams By Dr Rhett Butler 2001 "It's a perfect ponder" -Toots and the Maytals, Sweet and Dandy "O, that record could with a backward look, Even of five hundred courses of the sun, Show me your image in some antique book, Since mind at first in character was done! That I might see what the old world could say To this composed wonder of your frame." -William Shakespeare, Sonnet 59 For many years after first encountering the Yi, I accepted the legendary beginnings of the Hexagram as being doubled from the Trigrams. This story is told in the Wilhelm/Baynes version, based upon Sima Qian, the greatest historian of ancient China, who wrote in his Shiji: "The Western Earl, (i.e., King Wen) was probably in power for fifty years. When he was imprisoned at Youli, he probably increased the eight trigrams of the Yi into sixty-four hexagram." from E. Shaughnessy, The Composition of Zhou Yi The invention of the Trigrams is first ascribed to the legendary Emperor Bao Xi (or Fu Xi) in the Xici Zhuan, one of the "Ten Wings", of the Yi Jing: "In ancient times when Bao Xi (the Holder of the Sacrifices) ruled all under heaven, he looked up and contemplated the images in the sky he looked down and contemplated the patterns on earth, he contemplated the markings of birds and beasts and the appropriateness of the soil, from near at hand in his body and at a distance for things in general. From this he invented the eight diagrams in order to communicate with the virtues of the bright spirits and in order to classify the nature of the myriad things." from N.-J. Wu, Yi Jing In Hermann Hesse's classic, The Glass Bead Game, the Trigram images are among the first instances of the Yi in western literature. The youthful Joseph Knecht, the future Game Master, is introduced to Chinese thought by Elder Brother, who consults the Yi Jing with yarrow stalks on Knecht's request to study with him as his disciple. "The sage sat crosslegged on the floor of reed matting, for a long time silently examining the result of the augury on the sheet of paper. 'It is the sign Meng,' he said. 'This sign bears the name: youthful folly. Above the mountain, below the water; above Gan, below Kan. At the foot of the mountain a spring bubbles forth, the symbol of youth.'" These Trigram images are a wonderfully evocative way to symbolize the situations presented by the Hexagrams. My own studies of the Yi led me to the Chinese language and its ancient pictorial beginnings. Chinese words are composed of picture elements, and the basis of their etymology is now founded upon thousands of remnants of "dragon bones." The dragon bones are the ancient Shang inscriptions of divinations recorded on turtle shell (see Sources of Shang History: The Oracle-Bone Inscriptions of Bronze Age China by David N. Keightley). Each Hexagram name is a pictorial image as well. The various character elements present a pictorial image for the Hexagram situation. In Homer's classic, The Odyssey, the imagery of the Chinese picture character for Meng (Hexagram 4)--a boar beneath a woody covering--is beautifully evoked when the youthful Prince Odysseus is hunting a boar hunt in a wooded mountain glen... "Odysseus out in front now, pressing the dogs, brandishing high his spear with its long shadow waving. Then and there a great boar lay in wait, in a thicket lair so dense that the sodden gusty winds could never pierce it, nor could the sun's sharp rays invade its depths nor a downpour drench it through and through, so dense, so dark, and piled with fallen leaves." For each Hexagram there are two symbolic images that can be evoked--the image from the Trigrams and the image from the picture elements in the Hexagram name. In seeking correspondence, coincidence, and synchronicity in that which surrounds a particular Hexagram in a given situation, the mind can play with the symbolism of both of these images. For an inquisitive mind, one wonders how these images compare. Are the pictorial images in the Hexagram Names drawn from the symbolism in the Trigram elements? Did the ancient Sages give names to the Hexagrams using these Trigram images? Let us first consider the example of Hexagram 4, Meng [Youthful Folly, in the Wilhelm/Baynes translation], Mountain over Water. In the pictorial elements contained in the Chinese name, there is neither the character for Water nor Mountain. However, there is Wood, in the woody cover over the boar. Hence, the Name Meng, contains images that are not in the standard imagery of the Trigrams. This may be studied systematically, considering the Chinese name each of Hexagram, and comparing its pictorial elements with the constituent Trigrams. First, a couple of observations seem striking. In no Chinese Hexagram Name does the pictorial element Fire appear. Is this happenstance or purpose? The Yi, which used yarrow stalks, came to replace pyromancy, the burning of cracks in a turtle shell. Is the lack of Fire in the Yi a judgement in choosing not to use Fire for divination? Yet neither is Mountain in any Name. Nor Wind. Nor Lake. Water. The Trigram element for Water actually looks like the ancient picture form of water. There is Water in the pictorial elements of the Names of Hexagrams 59 [Dispersion] and 64 [Before Completion] (lower Trigram Water) and in Hexagrams 5 [Waiting] and 63 [After Completion] (upper Trigram Water or rain). Of the 16 Hexagrams with Water as a Trigram, only 4 show this element water/rain in the pictorial images in the Names. Hexagram 53 [Slow Progress] includes Water as a nuclear Trigram. Hexagram 51 [Shock] has rain as a pictorial element, and Water is a nuclear Trigram. Of the 16 Hexagrams with Water as a nuclear Trigram, only 4 show the element water/rain in the pictorial images: Hexagrams 51[Shock], 53 [Slow Progress] and 63 [After Completion], 64 [Before Completion]. Water or rain appears in pictorial elements of Hexagram Names that do not have constituent Water Trigrams. These include Hexagrams 11 [Peace] and 42 [Increase]. The lack of correspondence between the watery image of a cup overflowing in Hexagram 42 [Increase] and any Water Trigram constituent is perhaps surprising. Here the imagery of the Trigrams and pictorial elements of the Name complement and provide a far-reaching vision of the concept of "Increase". Wood/Wind. The images of Wind and Wind are coupled, and the lack of Wind in the pictorial elements of the Names has been noted. For Wood we may, as for water and rain, consider its broader forms: a tree, vines, a wooden table or stand, plants, jungle. Of the Hexagrams with Trigrams of Wood, the only Hexagrams with pictorial elements of Wood in the Names are 48 [Well], 50 [Ting], and 57 [Gentle], plus 53 [Slow Progress] if we include a chariot as wooden. For the nuclear Trigrams of Wood, the Hexagrams 45 [Gathering Together], 47 [Exhaustion], and 56 [Wanderer] all have wooden pictorial elements in their Names. As with Water, the percentage of the Hexagrams with a Trigram of Wood that actually contain a wooden pictorial element in the Name are few. There are wooden or plant pictorial elements in a many more Hexagram Names that are without a constituent Wood Trigram. These include Hexagrams 1 [Creative], 3 [Difficulty in the Beginning], 4 [Youthful Folly], 5 [Waiting], 15 [Modesty], 21 [Biting Through], 22 [Grace], 23 [Splitting Apart], 34 [Power of the Great], 38 [Opposition], 54 [Marrying Maiden], 60 [Limitation], 63 [After Completion], 64 [Before Completion]. Earth. For the Trigram Earth, only Hexagram 2 [Receptive] has the specific pictorial element earth in its Hexagram Name. Including an earthen rampart, the Hexagram 7 [Army] may be counted as well. The nuclear Trigram Earth is found only in Name of Hexagram 3 [Difficulty in the Beginning] as a plant emerging from the earth. Hexagram 29 [Abysmal], the eponymous Hexagram of the doubled Trigram Water, contains earth as part of its Name. Hexagrams 17 [Following] and 54 [Marrying Maiden] each contain an earthen rampart in their Names. However, neither Hexagram contains the Trigram Earth. Heaven. For the Trigram Heaven, only the first Hexagram [Creative] apparently contains an element of spirit as mist rising in the light. Hexagram 38 [Opposition] contains either an arrow or the sky as an element of its Name, yet contains no Trigram of Heaven. Thunder/Lightning. Only the eponymous Hexagram 51 [Shock] with the doubled Trigram of Thunder contains a pictorial element in its Name (the lower picture element) that may be construed as lightning or thunder. Hexagram 2 [Receptive] contains a pictorial element as the right character in its Name that may be lightning, yet contains no Trigram of Thunder/Lightning. Fire. As noted earlier, there is no fire in the pictorial elements in the Hexagram Names of the Yi. However, taking a larger view of Fire as the light of the sun or moon as a constituent pictorial element, Hexagrams 14 [Possession in Great Measure], 35 [Progress], and 36 [Darkening of the Light] contain the Trigram Fire. Hexagram 1 [Creative] includes light as a pictorial element in its Name, but is composed solely of the Trigram Heaven. Lake. There is no lake in the pictorial elements of the Hexagram Names of the Yi. Even broadening the scope of lake to water, there is no correspondence with the Trigrams of Lake. Only in the nuclear Trigrams of Hexagrams 5 [Waiting] and 11 [Peace] are pictorial elements of water in the Hexagram Names apparently linked with the Lake. Mountain. It is curious that mountains do not appear in the Zhou Yi except for the 3rd line of Hexagram 46 [Pushing Upward] and top line of Hexagram 17 [Following]. Of these, only Hexagram 17 contains the nuclear Trigram Mountain, which itself does not contain the top line with the character Mountain. What has this simple comparison shown? When we seek pictures of Trigram images in the Hexagram Names, only Water and Wood seem to play a major role in the composition of the picture elements of the Names. For Water, where the Trigram image is markedly similar to the ancient picture character for water, there is a natural correspondence. Even here, however, the correspondence is not one-to-one, but rather is about 25%. For Wood, there is a similar but not as direct a correspondence. For Wood, the pictorial elements were broadened to include "woody" things. Even in this instance the correspondence between Hexagrams with Wood Trigrams and woody picture elements in the Names is less than 25%. In contrast, over 40% of the Hexagrams without a Wood Trigram image do contain a woody picture element in the Name. Correspondence between other Trigrams and picture elements within the Hexagram Names is more tenuous or nonexistent. The Bard lends thoughtful words to our pondering... "What is thy name? I know thy quality." -from King Henry V "What's in a name? that which we call a rose By any other name would smell as sweet." -from Romeo and Juliet It would seem that rather than correspondence between the Trigram images and picture elements of the Hexagram Names, we see a new dimension. It is like comparing North and South with East and West. The symbolic imagery of the Trigrams complements the symbolic imagery of the pictorial elements in the Hexagram Names. Lending a cue from the Bard, King Henry V sees the picture elements in the Hexagram Name and thereby knows its quality. Whereas, Juliet knows the Hexagram by the sweet imagery of the Trigrams, caring not what its Name is. What of the Sages of old? In a language as rich with pictures as Chinese, the evidence that the Hexagram Names correspond little with the Trigrams might lead one to infer something about the origins of the Names and the Trigrams. Yet, whether or not one influenced the other is academic. The vast symbolic countryside of imagery lies before. Whether we look one way or another, we are better knowing the breadth of the world of the Yi and the visions that lie in front of our eyes should we choose to see. from Much Ado about Nothing... "Let this be so, and doubt not but success Will fashion the event in better shape Than I can lay it down in likelihood." -William Shakespeare . ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 11:15:04 +0000 From: Danu Subject: HEX8: Entering Pisces: new Haiku Poseidon Scales Back Thunder roars above Justice waits while death watches Wind across the earth - --Danu Haiku 2-19-2001 as our Sun re-encounters the Fishes in Winter's last phase of the new millennium ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 23:04:13 -0500 From: "Dr R. Butler" Subject: Re: HEX8: Entering Pisces: new Haiku Hi Danu, first blossoming hint the crocus lets winter see its autumn colors Rhett > Poseidon Scales Back > > Thunder roars above >Justice waits while death watches > Wind across the earth > >--Danu Haiku 2-19-2001 > as our Sun re-encounters the Fishes >in Winter's last phase of the new millennium > > > >===== >To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org >from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 11:35:55 +0000 From: Danu Subject: Re: HEX8: Entering Pisces: Da new Haiku2 IYO Rhett, Alarm sounds on high Stern Heron eyes, waits...then swoops Earth yields a new fish Danu Haiku 2-20-2001 Dr R. Butler wrote: > Hi Danu, > > first blossoming hint > the crocus lets winter see > its autumn colors > > Rhett > > > Poseidon Scales Back > > > > Thunder roars above > >Justice waits while death watches > > Wind across the earth > > > >--Danu Haiku 2-19-2001 > > as our Sun re-encounters the Fishes > >in Winter's last phase of the new millennium ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 21:42:41 -0500 From: "Dr R. Butler" Subject: Re: HEX8: Entering Pisces: Da new Haiku2 Hi Danu, Contemplating eyes Seeing a water Yi gift A moment fulfilled Rhett PS What is "IYO" ?:-) >IYO Rhett, > >Alarm sounds on high >Stern Heron eyes, waits...then swoops >Earth yields a new fish > >Danu Haiku 2-20-2001 > >Dr R. Butler wrote: > >> Hi Danu, >> >> first blossoming hint >> the crocus lets winter see >> its autumn colors >> >> Rhett >> >> > Poseidon Scales Back >> > >> > Thunder roars above >> >Justice waits while death watches >> > Wind across the earth >> > >> >--Danu Haiku 2-19-2001 >> > as our Sun re-encounters the Fishes >> >in Winter's last phase of the new millennium > > > >===== >To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org >from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 00:14:22 -0000 From: "Hilary Barrett" Subject: HEX8: indispensable translation Hello Bradford (and all), ****Thank you***** for your translation, which is seeing a lot of use at present and fast becoming indispensable. How is the great work coming on? (When will we be seeing it at Amazon?) All best wishes! Hilary ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 23:52:32 -0700 From: bradford Subject: HEX8: translation Hilary Barrett wrote: > How is the great work coming on? (When will we be seeing it at Amazon?) > All best wishes! > Hilary Hi Hilary It's always nice when this big ol' night sky retuurns a glad echo. Glad you're finding it helpful. Continuing work is in three parts: a) polishing the work already done. did you get both volumes? the Matrix? have since studied 32 more books on the Yi (up to 145 now) and still have to integrate this research into the work. A lot of it's junk, but there's some essential new stuff like Rutt & Gotshalk and more dissertations. Have also picked up a few more Chinese dictionaries & went back through all my old glosses. b) reorganizing the first two volumes, hopefully into a smoother and less intimidating format, maybe combining all the data on each single gua into chapters. I might even do this online- most of this work is way too technical to ever be a big seller anyway. c) writing the Volume 3 Commentary. What this does is expand the surviving images, embedding them in larger texts, so that the original appears in bold or italics and commentary in plain type. Instead of just explaining what a line means I hope to expand the original story using the Yi's own rules for generating images. And of course expose some buried meanings (& humor) in the process. I guess all together that's more than another year's worth of work. And at the moment I'm swamped with architecture & land planning work. Too many contracts came through this spring. Then there's rafting season. Maybe this time next year? Will post any changes & new developments. Yuan Ji, B ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 13:25:15 -0000 From: "Hilary Barrett" Subject: Re: HEX8: translation Hi, I have the Yi Matrix , 'Gloss' and 'Int2'. I think that's all, isn't it? (Doing a passable impression of dog begging for biscuits here...) I like your suggestions on syntax in particular. Volume 3 sounds intriguing; so does a post-Rutt version. Hilary - ----- Original Message ----- From: bradford To: Sent: Thursday, March 01, 2001 6:52 AM Subject: HEX8: translation > > > Hilary Barrett wrote: > > > How is the great work coming on? (When will we be seeing it at Amazon?) > > All best wishes! > > Hilary > > Hi Hilary > It's always nice when this big ol' night sky retuurns a glad echo. > Glad you're finding it helpful. > > Continuing work is in three parts: > a) polishing the work already done. did you get both volumes? the Matrix? > have since studied 32 more books on the Yi (up to 145 now) and still > have to integrate this research into the work. A lot of it's junk, but > there's some essential new stuff like Rutt & Gotshalk and more > dissertations. Have also picked up a few more Chinese dictionaries & > went back through all my old glosses. > b) reorganizing the first two volumes, hopefully into a smoother and > less intimidating format, maybe combining all the data on each single > gua into chapters. I might even do this online- most of this work is > way too technical to ever be a big seller anyway. > c) writing the Volume 3 Commentary. What this does is expand the > surviving images, embedding them in larger texts, so that the original > appears in bold or italics and commentary in plain type. Instead of > just explaining what a line means I hope to expand the original story > using the Yi's own rules for generating images. And of course expose > some buried meanings (& humor) in the process. > > I guess all together that's more than another year's worth of work. And > at the moment I'm swamped with architecture & land planning work. Too > many contracts came through this spring. Then there's rafting season. > Maybe this time next year? Will post any changes & new developments. > > Yuan Ji, > B > > > > ===== > To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org > from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. > ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2001 08:30:49 -0700 From: bradford Subject: HEX8: translation Hilary Barrett wrote: > > Hi, > I have the Yi Matrix , 'Gloss' and 'Int2'. I think that's all, isn't it? > (Doing a passable impression of dog begging for biscuits here...) I like > your suggestions on syntax in particular. I think you have it all, except the Vol. One graphics. Can only do these hard copy still. Forgot to mention that, given enough time, the Mathews numbers accompanying each Pinyin word should be replaced with the characters in Big5. > Volume 3 sounds intriguing; so does a post-Rutt version. This will still be me, so although I expect to learn much from Rutt, do not expect to see dancing elephants and grunting hamsters in the final version. These peeves are someone else's pets. ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2001 18:10:57 -0000 From: "Hilary Barrett" Subject: HEX8: I Ching links? Hello everyone, If you have an I Ching site, *especially* if it propounds a totally different view of the I from mine :-), how about exchanging links? Reciprocal links from non-commercial sites not required, of course, but all links much appreciated! Maybe between us we can increase our link popularity so much that we oust Facade's apology for an online reading from the top of the search engine rankings! Anyway, my I Ching links page is at www.onlineClarity.co.uk/html/links1.html - please add some sites to it! Best wishes to all, Hilary Clarity: I Ching readings and resources www.onlineClarity.co.uk PO BOX 255, Witney DO, OX29 6WH, UK. (+44) (0)1993 881984 ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2001 10:14:47 -0600 From: "Bernhard Pfennigschmidt" Subject: HEX8: New Tool Hello Friends Greetings. I got the I ching hexagrams and titles in a database to compare the line pattern. I want to shed some light on a unique way to see the trigram combinations. http://www.cancun.com/db/sipp/ra.php Love Bernhard ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2001 18:53:57 +0200 From: "L.Heyboer" Subject: HEX8: Re: New Tool I went to your website: great! At this moment I don't have time to do much 'diving into things', but your overview of hexagrams and codons was real interesting. I was also happy with the mayan calendar. Lots to investigate as soon as I have more time. I copied several pages, somehow I see more when it is printed. And I added your site to my bookmarks. Thanks, LiSe Yi Jing, Book of the Moon www.anton-heyboer.org postmaster@aheyboer.com - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bernhard Pfennigschmidt" To: Sent: Tuesday, March 27, 2001 6:14 PM Subject: HEX8: New Tool > Hello Friends > > Greetings. I got the I ching hexagrams and titles in a database to compare > the line pattern. I want to shed some light on a unique way to see the > trigram combinations. > > http://www.cancun.com/db/sipp/ra.php > > Love > Bernhard > > > ===== > To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org > from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. > ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 1 Apr 2001 16:05:31 EDT From: Frankelmick@aol.com Subject: HEX8: Master Alfred Huang - --part1_8c.4979c00.27f8e40b_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I recently bought myself a book by Master Alfred Huang, "The Numerology ot the I Ching". (ISBN 0-89281-811-5) What a fantastic book ! I find that each page is bursting with knowledge and full of joy. I'm sure there must be many others who know this book, but if you don't, I'd strongly recommend it. I know he's also translated the I Ching but I haven't seen it myself. Does anyone know and use his translation ? Has anybody met Master Huang ? Best wishes, Mick - --part1_8c.4979c00.27f8e40b_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I recently bought myself a book by Master Alfred Huang, "The Numerology ot
the I Ching". (ISBN 0-89281-811-5)

What a fantastic book !

I find that each page is bursting with knowledge and full of joy. I'm sure
there must be many others who know this book, but if you don't, I'd strongly
recommend it.

I know he's also translated the I Ching but I haven't seen it myself. Does
anyone know and use his translation ? Has anybody met Master Huang ?

Best wishes,

Mick   - --part1_8c.4979c00.27f8e40b_boundary-- ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 1 Apr 2001 19:42:37 -0700 (PDT) From: Duke Subject: Re: HEX8: Master Alfred Huang The I Ching translation is "The Complete I Ching" It is the version of the I Ching that I use and is far and away my favorite. I'm not a Chinese scholar but I found his translation has a very authentic feel. Regards Duke - --- Frankelmick@aol.com wrote: > I recently bought myself a book by Master Alfred > Huang, "The Numerology ot > the I Ching". (ISBN 0-89281-811-5) > > What a fantastic book ! > > I find that each page is bursting with knowledge and > full of joy. I'm sure > there must be many others who know this book, but if > you don't, I'd strongly > recommend it. > > I know he's also translated the I Ching but I > haven't seen it myself. Does > anyone know and use his translation ? Has anybody > met Master Huang ? > > Best wishes, > > Mick > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/?.refer=text ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 2 Apr 2001 15:09:02 -0500 From: "Bernhard Pfennigschmidt" Subject: Re: HEX8: Re: New Tool Hello Yi Anytime you want to discuss something, let me know.... This work is step by step. For quite some time I had no inspiration at all and I am also very busy running my commecial website, so you might not hear from me for some time. Love Bernhard From: "L.Heyboer" To: Subject: HEX8: Re: New Tool Date sent: Sat, 31 Mar 2001 18:53:57 +0200 Send reply to: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org I went to your website: great! At this moment I don't have time to do much 'diving into things', but your overview of hexagrams and codons was real interesting. I was also happy with the mayan calendar. Lots to investigate as soon as I have more time. I copied several pages, somehow I see more when it is printed. And I added your site to my bookmarks. Thanks, LiSe Yi Jing, Book of the Moon www.anton-heyboer.org postmaster@aheyboer.com - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bernhard Pfennigschmidt" To: Sent: Tuesday, March 27, 2001 6:14 PM Subject: HEX8: New Tool > Hello Friends > > Greetings. I got the I ching hexagrams and titles in a database to compare > the line pattern. I want to shed some light on a unique way to see the > trigram combinations. > > http://www.cancun.com/db/sipp/ra.php > > Love > Bernhard > > > ===== > To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org > from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. > ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2001 00:11:49 EDT From: Aglie@aol.com Subject: Re: HEX8: Master Alfred Huang In a message dated 4/1/2001 4:08:46 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Frankelmick@aol.com writes: << I recently bought myself a book by Master Alfred Huang, "The Numerology ot the I Ching". (ISBN 0-89281-811-5) What a fantastic book ! I find that each page is bursting with knowledge and full of joy. I'm sure there must be many others who know this book, but if you don't, I'd strongly recommend it. I know he's also translated the I Ching but I haven't seen it myself. Does anyone know and use his translation ? Has anybody met Master Huang ? Best wishes, Mick >> I agree that this is a wonderful book with much information about practical aspects of I Ching numerology not otherwise available in English.I think it is the best book in English on actual use of I Ching. The Chinese literature on this is vast and not known at all here. I was recently in a large Taipei bookstore which had a large section on divination with perhaps 100 books and several interested browsers there. My wife could tell me generally what the books were about but there seem to be Chinese divination methodsderived from I Ching about which non-readers of Chinese can learn nothing. I bought a plastic device somewhat like a luopan with several dials which can be set for some sort of divination. The characters have special meanings not understandable without specific study. Many of the books have circular diagrams. A major concern seems to be deciding what activities are favorable or not on specific days which is also what CHinese almanacs do. I find these works tantilizing but have no way to understand them, sadly. Re Al Huang's transl. of I Ching, The Complete I Ching, it is elegantly produced but somewhat vague so that I, at least, have difficulty finding a meaning in some sections. Less useful for me that W/B and Legge but interesting just the same. May all sentient beings be happy! Geoffrey ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ End of hexagram-8-digest V1 #198 ******************************** From owner-hexagram-8-digest@apocalypse.org Mon Apr 16 00:37:33 2001 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by apocalypse.org (8.11.2/8.11.0) id f3G4bXR16188 for hexagram-8-digest-outgoing; Mon, 16 Apr 2001 00:37:33 -0400 Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 00:37:33 -0400 Message-Id: <200104160437.f3G4bXR16188@apocalypse.org> X-Authentication-Warning: apocalypse.org: majordom set sender to owner-hexagram-8-digest@apocalypse.org using -f From: owner-hexagram-8-digest@apocalypse.org (hexagram-8-digest) To: hexagram-8-digest@apocalypse.org Subject: hexagram-8-digest V1 #199 Reply-To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Sender: owner-hexagram-8-digest@apocalypse.org Errors-To: owner-hexagram-8-digest@apocalypse.org Precedence: bulk hexagram-8-digest Monday, April 16 2001 Volume 01 : Number 199 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2001 09:03:00 -0400 From: "Dr R. Butler" Subject: Re: HEX8: Hexagram Names and Trigrams perfectly quiet thoughts come to expressing forms the spring rain echos I started doing tai chi again this january new years, a resolution to move from stillness to motion. This was prompted by my friend an acupuncturist, Dr. Wu, who was treating a literal "pain in neck". It has done wonders. Earlier this year, I sent to this list (and others) a small work I finished on the Hexagram Names and Trigrams. Perhaps it was too long to be digested since even a great banquet cannot be eaten with a single bite. To complement the quiet of this rainy morning, I thought I would offer it up in small servings. Responding to one's own email reminds me of a Billy Idol song, Dancing with Myself, which is now going through my head. I realize also that tai chi has some of this quality. >Hexagram Names and Trigrams > >By Dr Rhett Butler > > 2001 > > > > "It's a perfect ponder" > -Toots and the Maytals, Sweet and Dandy This is one of my favorite lines expressing wonder. It occurs in one of the songs in Jimmy Cliff's album/movie, The Harder it Comes. > > "O, that record could with a backward look, > Even of five hundred courses of the sun, > Show me your image in some antique book, > Since mind at first in character was done! > That I might see what the old world could say > To this composed wonder of your frame." > -William Shakespeare, Sonnet 59 > The Bard seemed to echo my thoughts as I pondered the form of the Yi, especially to the connections between character name and framework of the hexagram. stopping a moment to savor a fleeting glimpse reflecting echos Aloha, Rhett ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2001 10:13:19 -0400 From: "Dr R. Butler" Subject: Re: HEX8: Hexagram Names and Trigrams accepting the truth ancient words tell the story eyes open always > >For many years after first encountering the Yi, I accepted the legendary >beginnings of the Hexagram as being doubled from the Trigrams. This story is >told in the Wilhelm/Baynes version, based upon Sima Qian, the greatest >historian of ancient China, who wrote in his Shiji: > > "The Western Earl, (i.e., King Wen) was probably in power for fifty > years. When he was imprisoned at Youli, he probably increased the > eight trigrams of the Yi into sixty-four hexagram." > from E. Shaughnessy, The Composition of Zhou Yi > This is the first reference I can find to the origin of the doubling of the Trigrams. King Wen is not mentioned in the Yi (of course, Thomas Jefferson is not mentioned in the Declaration of Independence:-). King Wen is mentioned in the "Ten Wings" ... "Was it not in the last age of Yin, when the virture of Zhou had reached its highest point, and during the troubles between King Wen and Zhou (here, Yin Emperor Zhou, not Zhou the people) that the Yi began to flourish?" I cannot find my reference to Sima Qian, but I think he was lived around 200 bc, or about 900 years after King Wen. The name "Youli" contains the character which is the wilderness outside of the cities in the judgement line of hexagram #13. King Wen's actual name was Ch'ang, the chinese character being a sun over a sun. In hexagram form, his name looks a lot like #30. The title of King is posthumous, following the defeat of the Shang (Yin) by his son, Fa, King Wu. King Wen was known as the Chief of the West (or Western Earl), as the leader of the Zhou who lived west of the Shang. The Chief of the West and King Wen figure very prominently in the ShiJing, Classic of History. names, dates and places of historical musings pictures in puzzles Aloha, Rhett ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2001 21:39:31 -0400 From: "Dr R. Butler" Subject: Re: HEX8: Hexagram Names and Trigrams & Wen looking for his name coincidental characters hidden in the lines > King Wen is not mentioned in the Yi (of course, Thomas Jefferson >is not mentioned in the Declaration of Independence:-). King Wen is >mentioned in the "Ten Wings" ... "Was it not in the last age of Yin, when >the virture of Zhou had reached its highest point, and during the troubles >between King Wen and Zhou (here, Yin Emperor Zhou, not Zhou the people) >that the Yi began to flourish?" > Actually when I think about it, you can "find" Wen in the Zhou Yi, but only in the lines. If you look at the character it is composed of above and below. This character occurs in #3.3 (i.e, Hexagram 3, third line), 4.1, 4.4, 11.6, 13.2, 18.4, 20.1, 21.3, 22.5, 28.4, 31.3, 32.3, 35.6, 37.3, 40.3, 44.6, 45.3, 47.4, 57.3, and 64.1. Wilhlem and Wu translate it as "regret", as in 13.2, "A union of men in the ancestral hall. Regrets". Suppose, if/when Dan the Duke of Zhou wrote the lines he was actually saying, "A union of men in the ancestral hall. Wen spoke of this." Interesting? What is the case for "regret"? In Scheussler's dictionary, the only reference for is to the Zhou Yi Hexagram 3.3, which he translated as regrets. The actual meaning of is unclear. Kunst's dissertaion notes that, "Lin scarcely appears in other EOC (early old, pre-classical chinese) and LOC (late old, classical chinese) texts. There are no cases in the 'Shi' (Jing) or in the genuine sections of the 'Shu'. Shima's 'Sorui' has no entry for the OBI (oracle bome inscriptions), nor does 'Jinwen gulin' for WZBI (western Zhou bronze inscriptions)." Wen of course is the honorific title of Ch'ang. It has come to mean literary, cultured. I had an interesting discussion with Steve Moore regarding whether the title Wen may have had something to do with the him writing the Yi. There is no evidence except circumstantial. I have had some thoughts about contexts within the Yi suggesting Wen's authorship. Here are a couple: First, in reading The Cambridge History of Ancient China (Ed. by Loewe and Shaughnessy) they note that or people of the field was an early Zhou term for those living outside the Capital city. When trying to consider the context of Hex13 and its judgement, perhaps "King Wen" saw in this as those people outside of the Shang Capital, including the Zhou people. Second, there is the concept of the favorable West-South and not favorable East-North. These terms are used only in the judgement texts (2, 39, and 40), and never in the lines themselves. Viewing that from the Shang Capital, the lands of Zhou were in the West-South, and from the Zhou perspective the Shang were in the East-North, these directions as referring to the Zhou and Shang regions make sense (at least to me:-). If "King Wen" wrote these while imprisoned at Yew-le, then these terms can be viewed from this historical context. In prison, it might not be diplomatic to say "Make your friends among the Zhou, lose your friends among the Shang". I have to admit some personal context here as well. I live in Washington DC, the heart of the empire, but my home is in Honolulu. I very much see these contexts of the Southwest and Northeast as real. hexagram viewing in the heart of the empire the southwest furthers Aloha, Rhett ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 11:18:25 +0100 From: "Hilary Barrett" Subject: Re: HEX8: Hexagram Names and Trigrams & Wen Hello Rhett, I do admire your efforts single-handedly to revive this list! About regrets vv Wen said it - now, I don't know Chinese (hoping for comments from people who do!), but I've found the 'regrets' message to make sense in the context, as a rule. What *divinatory meaning* would 'Wen said so' add to a line? This is a personal quirk dating back to my time as student of literature: when readings are contested and there's not enough evidence to decide 'objectively', I go for the one with more 'value added' ;-) About directions... the standard Shang vv Zhou version works well (though by itself, of course, doesn't prove an individual author), amongst other things. I read once for a friend who felt stymied by the house she lived in, to the west of the town centre and on the very outskirts, and wanted to know what effect it had on her. Yes - #9. Best wishes to anyone who's out there :-) Hilary - ----- Original Message ----- From: Dr R. Butler To: Sent: Sunday, April 15, 2001 2:39 AM Subject: Re: HEX8: Hexagram Names and Trigrams & Wen > looking for his name > coincidental characters > hidden in the lines > > > King Wen is not mentioned in the Yi (of course, Thomas Jefferson > >is not mentioned in the Declaration of Independence:-). King Wen is > >mentioned in the "Ten Wings" ... "Was it not in the last age of Yin, when > >the virture of Zhou had reached its highest point, and during the troubles > >between King Wen and Zhou (here, Yin Emperor Zhou, not Zhou the people) > >that the Yi began to flourish?" > > > > Actually when I think about it, you can "find" Wen in the Zhou Yi, but only > in the lines. If you look at the character it is composed of > above and below. This character occurs in #3.3 (i.e, Hexagram 3, > third line), 4.1, 4.4, 11.6, 13.2, 18.4, 20.1, 21.3, 22.5, 28.4, 31.3, > 32.3, 35.6, 37.3, 40.3, 44.6, 45.3, 47.4, 57.3, and 64.1. Wilhlem and Wu > translate it as "regret", as in 13.2, "A union of men in the ancestral > hall. Regrets". > > Suppose, if/when Dan the Duke of Zhou wrote the lines he was actually > saying, "A union of men in the ancestral hall. Wen spoke of this." > Interesting? > > What is the case for "regret"? In Scheussler's dictionary, the only > reference for is to the Zhou Yi Hexagram 3.3, which he translated as > regrets. The actual meaning of is unclear. Kunst's dissertaion notes > that, "Lin scarcely appears in other EOC (early old, pre-classical chinese) > and LOC (late old, classical chinese) texts. There are no cases in the > 'Shi' (Jing) or in the genuine sections of the 'Shu'. Shima's 'Sorui' has > no entry for the OBI (oracle bome inscriptions), nor does 'Jinwen gulin' > for WZBI (western Zhou bronze inscriptions)." > > Wen of course is the honorific title of Ch'ang. It has come to mean > literary, cultured. I had an interesting discussion with Steve Moore > regarding whether the title Wen may have had something to do with the him > writing the Yi. There is no evidence except circumstantial. > > I have had some thoughts about contexts within the Yi suggesting Wen's > authorship. Here are a couple: > > First, in reading The Cambridge History of Ancient China (Ed. by Loewe and > Shaughnessy) they note that or people of the field was an early > Zhou term for those living outside the Capital city. When trying to > consider the context of Hex13 and its judgement, perhaps "King Wen" saw in > this as those people outside of the Shang Capital, including the Zhou > people. > > Second, there is the concept of the favorable West-South and not favorable > East-North. These terms are used only in the judgement texts (2, 39, and > 40), and never in the lines themselves. Viewing that from the Shang > Capital, the lands of Zhou were in the West-South, and from the Zhou > perspective the Shang were in the East-North, these directions as referring > to the Zhou and Shang regions make sense (at least to me:-). > > If "King Wen" wrote these while imprisoned at Yew-le, then these terms can > be viewed from this historical context. In prison, it might not be > diplomatic to say "Make your friends among the Zhou, lose your friends > among the Shang". > > I have to admit some personal context here as well. I live in Washington > DC, the heart of the empire, but my home is in Honolulu. I very much see > these contexts of the Southwest and Northeast as real. > > hexagram viewing > in the heart of the empire > the southwest furthers > > Aloha, > > Rhett > > > > > ===== > To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org > from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. > ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2001 13:18:17 EDT From: Aglie@aol.com Subject: HEX8: References for early Chinese Since there is now some activity on the list, I will submit a question which has been on my mind a while to see if anyone can help. While in Taiwan recently I found a nicely produced reprint of Karlgren's Grammata Serica Recensa which is a sort of dictionary of early Chinese. Alas, it replaces Schuessler's dictionary on my personal list of the most frustrating reference book ever published. GSR consists of lists of characters with definitions but the order of the characters seems to be completely random. There is a radical index but this is also hard to use because the numbers of the radicals are left out. Has anyone figured it out? May all sentient beings be happy! Geoffrey ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2001 12:20:06 -0600 From: Bradford Hatcher Subject: Re: HEX8: References for early Chinese Hi Geoffrey- Yes, someone has, if you want to spend another US$60: There's a version of this by Tor Ulving titled: Dictionary of Old and Middle Chinese: Bernhard Karlgren's Grammatica Serica Recensa Alphabetically Arranged; ISBN 91-7346-294-2; ACTA Universitatis Gothoburgensis, 1997 It is, just like Schuessler's, alphabetized in Pinyin Da Ji, Bradford Aglie@aol.com wrote: > > Since there is now some activity on the list, I will submit a question which > has been on my mind a while to see if anyone can help. While in Taiwan > recently I found a nicely produced reprint of Karlgren's Grammata Serica > Recensa which is a sort of dictionary of early Chinese. Alas, it replaces > Schuessler's dictionary on my personal list of the most frustrating reference > book ever published. > GSR consists of lists of characters with definitions but the order of the > characters seems to be completely random. There is a radical index but this > is also hard to use because the numbers of the radicals are left out. > Has anyone figured it out? > > May all sentient beings be happy! > Geoffrey > > ===== > To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org > from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2001 12:25:42 -0600 From: Bradford Hatcher Subject: Re: HEX8: References for early Chinese And oops, almost forgot, Karlgren's numbers are cross referenced to all of the characters in the received Zhouyi text in Richard Kunst's doctoral thesis "The Original Yijing," available through http://www.umi.com/hp/Products/Dissertations.html. ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2001 15:10:07 -0400 From: "Dr R. Butler" Subject: Re: HEX8:Fu Xi & Hexagram Names and Trigrams simple beginnings from the dawn of history trigrams images > >The invention of the Trigrams is first ascribed to the legendary Emperor >Bao Xi (or Fu Xi) in the Xici Zhuan, one of the "Ten Wings", of the Yi >Jing: > > "In ancient times when Bao Xi (the Holder of the Sacrifices) ruled all > under heaven, he looked up and contemplated the images in the sky he > looked down and contemplated the patterns on earth, he contemplated > the markings of birds and beasts and the appropriateness of the soil, > from near at hand in his body and at a distance for things in general. > From this he invented the eight diagrams in order to communicate > with the virtues of the bright spirits and in order to classify the > nature of the myriad things." > from N.-J. Wu, Yi Jing > That King Wen doubled trigrams to make the hexagrams seems so logical a path of development that it may be accepted on face value. Starting with simple forms, one may create more complex images. Fu Xi accomplishments are legendary, and he seems to lived thousands of years before King Wen. When I began to study Chinese, I expected to see the Trigrams written in the archeology of the Chinese. The ancient collection of oracle bones would have Fu Xi Trigram symbols. I was surprised that only the Trigram, , for water appears. _ _ ___ _ _ Water as a Trigram appears as it is the Character for water. The Trigram for the Creative appears as well, but may be in the context of ||| for 3. Looking through the literature, there are discussions of "ba gua" (8 diagrams or trigrams) symbol that do appear on the turtle shells. Yet, other than water, these appear as collections of three or six numerals, that are suggested to correspond to a trigram/hexagram. It may well be that the Trigram forms are indeed ancient, and they were simply not recorded on the turtle shells. Thus, although it would seem to be simple for King Wen to have doubled the Trigrams, there does not seem to be a lot of (or any substantive) 'written' evidence that the Trigrams were routinely in use prior to King Wen's time. Others have said this before, but it may be that the Trigrams ascribed to Fu Xi were a legendary accomplishment, to give a foundation to their existence prior to King Wen. King Wen may have started with the Hexagrams themselves. The actual use of Trigrams cannot be derived from the Judgement or Line texts, yet they are an essential part of the "Ten Wings" of Confucian age. These Confucian images form a core for understanding the Hexagrams distinctly complementing the actual Hexgrams Names, Judgement and Line texts. hexagrams pictured seeking an inner order from their simple parts Aloha, Rhett ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2001 15:36:29 -0400 From: "Dr R. Butler" Subject: Re: HEX8: References for early Chinese Hi Geoffrey, Is this different from Karlgren's "Analytical Dictionary of Chinese and Sino-Japanese", published by Dover Books? To effectively find characters in this, one must use a couple of different dictionaries to cross-reference stuff. This can be viewed as a frustration or a feature. Going to the trouble of finding something can lead to serendipitous discovery of something else. Thanks, Rhett > >Aglie@aol.com wrote: >> >> Since there is now some activity on the list, I will submit a question which >> has been on my mind a while to see if anyone can help. While in Taiwan >> recently I found a nicely produced reprint of Karlgren's Grammata Serica >> Recensa which is a sort of dictionary of early Chinese. Alas, it replaces >> Schuessler's dictionary on my personal list of the most frustrating >>reference >> book ever published. >> GSR consists of lists of characters with definitions but the order of the >> characters seems to be completely random. There is a radical index but this >> is also hard to use because the numbers of the radicals are left out. >> Has anyone figured it out? >> >> May all sentient beings be happy! >> Geoffrey >> ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2001 16:09:32 -0400 From: "Dr R. Butler" Subject: Re: HEX8: Hexagram Names and Trigrams & Wen Hi Hilary, Nice to hear from you! And through a time warp :-) From: "Hilary Barrett" To: Subject: Re: HEX8: Hexagram Names and Trigrams & Wen Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 11:18:25 +0100 **** note the date on your outgoing email! (or is this my email program's problem??) > >About regrets vv Wen said it - now, I don't know Chinese (hoping for >comments from people who do!), but I've found the 'regrets' message to make >sense in the context, as a rule. What *divinatory meaning* would 'Wen said >so' add to a line? This is a personal quirk dating back to my time as >student of literature: when readings are contested and there's not enough >evidence to decide 'objectively', I go for the one with more 'value added' >;-) I have not really tried to come up with something new. It could be read as "Wen warned us about this" as a general admonishment of caution, or "Wen would speak out" suggesting to say something. I have tried the latter in one situation where #13 -> #1 and did not feel regrets. It was a creative solution. In looking into alternative views, one can find these as confusing or simply a wider perspective of imagery. > >About directions... the standard Shang vv Zhou version works well (though by >itself, of course, doesn't prove an individual author), amongst other >things. I read once for a friend who felt stymied by the house she lived in, >to the west of the town centre and on the very outskirts, and wanted to know >what effect it had on her. Yes - #9. The Yi does have sense of humor! #9 is interesting from the perspective of Chinese weather patterns. It is my understanding that where the Zhou lived, rain would come from the monsoons to the south and southwest, and from the northeast, but not from the West. Can anyone who has experience corroborate this? Hence, no rain from the western region could be a symbolic statement of "no need to worry about those clouds", or if you needed rain, "those clouds won't bring them". I have two quotes from Thoreau are resonate here: from Walden We waded so gently and reverently, or we pulled together so smoothly, that the fishes of thought were not seared from the stream, nor feared any angler on the bank, but came and went grandly, like the clouds which float through the western sky... - Henry David Thoreau from Cape Cod So, distant clouds and showers may be seen on all sides by a sailor in the course of a day, which do not necessarily portend rain where he is. - Henry David Thoreau > >Best wishes to anyone who's out there :-) > >Hilary All the best, Rhett ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2001 16:17:06 EDT From: Aglie@aol.com Subject: Re: HEX8: References for early Chinese In a message dated 4/15/2001 2:23:05 PM Eastern Daylight Time, bradford@independence.net writes: << Hi Geoffrey- Yes, someone has, if you want to spend another US$60: There's a version of this by Tor Ulving titled: Dictionary of Old and Middle Chinese: Bernhard Karlgren's Grammatica Serica Recensa Alphabetically Arranged; ISBN 91-7346-294-2; ACTA Universitatis Gothoburgensis, 1997 It is, just like Schuessler's, alphabetized in Pinyin Da Ji, Bradford >> Hello Bradford, Thank you for your helpful advice. I already have S's doctoral disseratation. Do you know how to order Ulvig's book? I regularly comb bookstores in US specializing in Chinese culture but have not seen this. Since you seem unusually well informed, do you have other suggestions re materials for study of early Chinese? Finally, do you know Karlgren's rationale for how he ordered characters? It is not by radicals or sound so far as I can tell. My wife who reads classical Chinese cannot figure it out either. Thanks for you help! May all sentient beings be happy! Geoffrey ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2001 16:22:21 -0400 From: Lare/Mo Lei-Li Subject: Re: HEX8: References for early Chinese and oops again -- Even though you find Schuessler frustrating, his entries also crossref the GSR. Bradford Hatcher wrote: > And oops, almost forgot, > Karlgren's numbers are cross referenced to all of the characters in the > received Zhouyi text in Richard Kunst's doctoral thesis "The Original > Yijing," available > through http://www.umi.com/hp/Products/Dissertations.html. > > ===== > To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org > from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2001 16:19:34 EDT From: Aglie@aol.com Subject: Re: HEX8: References for early Chinese In a message dated 4/15/2001 4:11:54 PM Eastern Daylight Time, rbutler@iris.edu writes: << Hi Geoffrey, Is this different from Karlgren's "Analytical Dictionary of Chinese and Sino-Japanese", published by Dover Books? To effectively find characters in this, one must use a couple of different dictionaries to cross-reference stuff. This can be viewed as a frustration or a feature. Going to the trouble of finding something can lead to serendipitous discovery of something else. Thanks, Rhett >> Hello Rhett, I have not seen the Dover version. Is it still in print? I agree that searching dictionaries is fascinating and rewarding. But there are times one just wants to find the character quickly and easily. Regards, Geoffrey ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2001 16:30:28 -0400 From: Lare/Mo Lei-Li Subject: Re: HEX8: References for early Chinese Hi Rhett, and no -- The GSR is Karlgren's magnum opus -- the Dover is like a pocket dictionary. However, the frustration of looking things up in the both of them is of a similar nature! Aaach! However, both are indeed gems. No doubt about it. Btw, Karlgren not only also did an xlax of the Shi, but an accompanying book of glosses -- where he goes into more detail and sources. Warning: his Glosses is in notebook writing style. - -MLL "Dr R. Butler" wrote: > Hi Geoffrey, > > Is this different from Karlgren's "Analytical Dictionary of Chinese and > Sino-Japanese", published by Dover Books? ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2001 16:10:12 -0600 From: Bradford Hatcher Subject: HEX8: References for early Chinese Hi Geoffrey- > Thank you for your helpful advice. I already have S's doctoral disseratation. Just checking- S's ???? Wasn't talking about Shaugnessey, but Kunst. and I Could have said that he indexed his Concordance section by radical and stroke. Hi Lare- indeedy Schuessler has Karlgren numbers. Would that he also had more than half of the Zhouyi's characters! > Do you know how to order Ulvig's book? I regularly comb bookstores in US > specializing in Chinese culture but have not seen this. I just ordered mine from my bookstore using the ISBN #. Then waited. > Since you seem unusually well informed, do you have other suggestions re > materials for study of early Chinese? The website dictionaries like zhongwen.com are getting better all the time. Lare? You know these better than me. I also got some insights from both Wilder's Analysis of Chinese Characters (Dover) and, mo betta, was Leon Wieger's Chinese Characters (Dover), which has two really concise dictionaries, by phonetic and by radical. But the wisest advice is Index Cards, one for each word, with all the data there for future reference. ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2001 19:15:29 -0400 From: Lare/Mo Lei-Li Subject: Re: HEX8: References for early Chinese Bradford Hatcher wrote: > Hi Lare- indeedy Schuessler has Karlgren numbers. > Would that he also had more than half of the Zhouyi's characters! .....> Amen. But even with his sortcomings, I still have a soft spot in my heart for Schuessler. I think he's got a bum rap. Feel the same about Legge. He has fallen out of favor, and I think it's a shame. The man was a master linguist for his -- or any -- time. I often consult his footnotes and dictionary in his Analects, and take pride in my copy of his "She King" with it's notes and dictionary. Btw, as for Karlgren's Glosses on the Shi -- they are interesting, but... I would not recommend them to anyone who just wanted to look up a definition; they are for exhaustive research only. Believe me. As for websites, we have access to some good sources of Big5-type coding. Zhongwen is the best home-base. (I even bought their hardcopy dictionary (but don't recommend others do so).) The Warring States site is showing some promise -- but I still class that as a wait-and-see. - -Mo/Lare ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 00:37:10 +0200 From: "Robert Matusan - Boyler" Subject: Re: HEX8: Hexagram Names and Trigrams & Wen Hi there, I see there are few knowledgeable list members here. Well, I have problem concerning some hexagram names. Maybe some of you could help. Below are the "problematic" hexagram names. Numeration is according to received text, and English names are taken from Wilhelm/Baynes translation. If some of you can help, please provide me with answers (pinyin, tones, and if necessary Chinese characters. Thank you. 3. (Zhun) Tun2 屯 - Difficulty at the Beginning; - - (Is it Zhun or Tun2? If Zhun, what pinyin tone?) 5. (Xu) Ru2 濡 - Waiting (Nourishment); - - (Is it Xu or Ru2? If Xu, what pinyin tone.) 9. Xiao3 (Chu4) Xu4 小 畜 - The Taming Power of the Small; - - (Is it Xiao3 Chu4 or Xiao3 Xu4?) 12. (Pi) Fou3 否 - Standstill [Stagnation]; - - (Is it Pi or Fou3? If Pi, what pinyin tone?) 22. (Ben?) Bi4 賁 – Grace; - - (Is it Ben or Bi4? If Ben, what pinyin tone?) 26. Da4 (Chu4) Xu4 大 畜 - The Taming Power of the Great; - - (Is it Da4 Chu4 or Da4 Xu4? - see 9. above) 40. (Jie3) Jie4 (Xie4) 解 – Deliverance; - - (Is it Jie3, Jie4, or Xie4?) 53. Jian1 (Jian4) 漸 - Development (Gradual Progress); - - (Is it Jian1 or Jian4?) 61. Zhong1 (Zhong4) Fu2 中 孚 - Inner Truth; - - (Is it Zhong1 Fu2 or Zhong4 Fu2?) 63. Ji4 (Ji3) Ji4 既 濟 - After Completion; - - (Is it Ji4 Ji3 or Ji4 Ji4?) 64. Wei4 (Ji3) Ji4 未 濟 - Before Completion; - - (Is it Wei4 Ji3 or Wei4 Ji4? - see 63. above) Thank you very much for your answers. Wansui! Boyler ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2001 19:25:45 -0600 From: Bradford Hatcher Subject: HEX8: Missing the Oracle hi folks- maybe now is a good time to ask this, before this list goes all narcoleptic again. Has anyone given any thought to the creation of a web-based entity to fill some of the functions the Oracle did? Like peer review? I came out of seclusion and went online just a little too late to enjoy this vehicle. 08.0, the late one's misfortune. Steve, if you're still out there- did any decent ideas come up as you were about to shut down? The idea that kept crossing my mind was an invitation only grove/discussion group, moderated, with group edited or approved postings, tantamount to an edited publication. And maybe a little more public access to these more "finished" products. Clearly Hex 8 is not the place for this. The (recent) archives here are inaccessible and it's a lot of moderator work. Of course it would take some good ground rules. I for one am more than a little tired of runaway Xiang Shu Tautologists, even though I have a few small Xiang Shu pets. I even found myself willing to chip in some dues to compensate someone for doing the moderating. Any thoughts on the matter? Hello Ron- last December you mailed out the membership list (it was a hundred souls at the time). Could you be persuaded to do that again? Bradford ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2001 21:29:51 EDT From: Aglie@aol.com Subject: HEX8: Legge as translator In a message dated 4/15/2001 7:14:37 PM Eastern Daylight Time, mo4@worldnet.att.net writes: << Feel the same about Legge. He has fallen out of favor, and I think it's a shame. The man was a master linguist for his -- or any -- time. I often consult his footnotes and dictionary in his Analects, and take pride in my copy of his "She King" with it's notes and dictionary. >> I'm glad to have someone come to the defense of Legge. His somewhat antagonistic attitude toward his material is alternately amusing and annoying, certainly not politically correct but sometimes refreshing after the self-conscious piety which recent books tend to show. Needham remarks itLegge is in many ways more useful than W/B and at least one can separate the various textual layers which one cannot in W/B, at least I cannot. In Taiwan, a well produced and inexpensive version of Legge's 5 vol classics is available. I've recently been reading Spring and Autumn Annals in this series, otherwise not available in English/ It gives some idea of Zhou life which is useful as a context for I Ching. The series, in addition to Analects, etc includes Book of Documents and interesting version of Book of Songs. You have to go to Taiwan to get it but its a wonderful place. BTW, currently the Nat'l Palace Museum has taken the Oracle Bones off display. I always liked seeing them as a tangible sign of early China. Anyone know of other museums with oracle bone exhibits? May all sentient beings be happy! Geoffrey ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2001 21:31:25 EDT From: Aglie@aol.com Subject: Re: HEX8: Missing the Oracle In a message dated 4/15/2001 9:29:26 PM Eastern Daylight Time, bradford@independence.net writes: << The idea that kept crossing my mind was an invitation only grove/discussion group, moderated, with group edited or approved postings, tantamount to an edited publication. And maybe a little more public access to these more "finished" products. >> Sounds like a good idea to me. Geoffrey Redmond ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2001 19:37:19 -0600 From: Bradford Hatcher Subject: HEX8: References for early Chinese > for Schuessler. I think he's got a bum rap. I like him too. And he's great ammo against the "dancing elephant, grunting hamster, twitching captive" legions of academic Parrots. (no opinions here!) > Feel the same about Legge. He has fallen out of favor, and I think it's a shame. > The man was a master linguist for his -- or any -- time. I often consult his > footnotes and dictionary in his Analects, and take pride in my copy of his "She > King" with it's notes and dictionary. Speaking of Legge. I got really tired of waiting for Sun Publications to reprint ZD Sung's 'The Text of the Yi King and Its Appendices,' due out last October, so I snagged one off of ABE and left two on their list. For those who don't know it, it's the most accessible Chinese text, with Zhouyi and the Ten Wings complete, alongside Legge's translation. Really useful for learning the language. And the Chinese text is very well proofed. ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2001 22:06:29 EDT From: Aglie@aol.com Subject: Re: HEX8: References for early Chinese In a message dated 4/15/2001 9:39:10 PM Eastern Daylight Time, bradford@independence.net writes: << Speaking of Legge. I got really tired of waiting for Sun Publications to reprint ZD Sung's 'The Text of the Yi King and Its Appendices,' due out last October, so I snagged one off of ABE and left two on their list. For those who don't know it, it's the most accessible Chinese text, with Zhouyi and the Ten Wings complete, alongside Legge's translation. Really useful for learning the language. And the Chinese text is very well proofed. >> As I posted a while ago, an excellent Chinese reprint is (or was) available at $17.50 from a bookstore called East Meets West 934 Massachusetts Ave. Cambridge, MA 02139 tel 617 354 9596 They also have Karcher's Eranos I Ching and Legge's Four Books in Ch and English Like W/B, the Sung version cuts up the Wings and places them with the hexagrams whereas Legge kept them separate. The cut and paste version is most useful when employing the oracle but reading them as continuous texts is also valuable to get a feel for each as a work of literature. May all sentient beings be happy! Geoffrey ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2001 22:37:03 -0600 From: Bradford Hatcher Subject: HEX8: Gua Ming (Hexagram Names) Hi- I regret never learning the tones - never thought I'd speak the ancient tongue, now it'll give me fits learning to enter Big5, but here's what I've got on your Gua Ming: This gives Mathews #, Karlgren # and Radical+Stroke 03 Tun 6592, 427a, 45+1; Rallying 05 Xu 2844, 134a, 173+6; Anticipation 09 Xiao Chu 2605, 1412; 1149a, 1018a; 42+0, 102+5; Raising Small Beasts 12 Pi 1902, 999e, 30+4; Separating 22 Bi 5027, 437a, 154+5; Adornment 26 Da Chu 5943, 1412; 317a, 1018a ; 37+0, 102+5; Raising Great Beasts 40 Jie 0626, 861a, 148+6; Release 53 Jian 0878, 611f, 85+11; Gradual Progress 61 Zhong Fu 1504, 1936; 1007a, 1233a; 2+3, 39+4; The Truth Within 63 Ji Ji 0453, 0459; 515c, 593o; 71+7, 85+14; Already Complete 64 Wei Ji 7114, 0459; 531a, 593o; 75+1, 85+14; Not Yet Complete Hope this helps, B Robert Matusan - Boyler wrote: > > Hi there, > > I see there are few knowledgeable list members here. > > Well, I have problem concerning some hexagram names. Maybe some of you could > help. > > Below are the "problematic" hexagram names. Numeration is according to > received text, and English names are taken from Wilhelm/Baynes translation. > > If some of you can help, please provide me with answers (pinyin, tones, and > if necessary Chinese characters. Thank you. > > 3. (Zhun) Tun2 屯 - Difficulty at the Beginning; > - (Is it Zhun or Tun2? If Zhun, what pinyin tone?) > > 5. (Xu) Ru2 濡 - Waiting (Nourishment); > - (Is it Xu or Ru2? If Xu, what pinyin tone.) > > 9. Xiao3 (Chu4) Xu4 * 畜 - The Taming Power of the Small; > - (Is it Xiao3 Chu4 or Xiao3 Xu4?) > > 12. (Pi) Fou3 *| - Standstill [Stagnation]; > - (Is it Pi or Fou3? If Pi, what pinyin tone?) > > 22. (Ben?) Bi4 3* – Grace; > - (Is it Ben or Bi4? If Ben, what pinyin tone?) > > 26. Da4 (Chu4) Xu4 倧 畜 - The Taming Power of the Great; > - (Is it Da4 Chu4 or Da4 Xu4? - see 9. above) > > 40. (Jie3) Jie4 (Xie4) 解 – Deliverance; > - (Is it Jie3, Jie4, or Xie4?) > > 53. Jian1 (Jian4) * - Development (Gradual Progress); > - (Is it Jian1 or Jian4?) > > 61. Zhong1 (Zhong4) Fu2 世 s - Inner Truth; > - (Is it Zhong1 Fu2 or Zhong4 Fu2?) > > 63. Ji4 (Ji3) Ji4 既 濟 - After Completion; > - (Is it Ji4 Ji3 or Ji4 Ji4?) > > 64. Wei4 (Ji3) Ji4 未 濟 - Before Completion; > - (Is it Wei4 Ji3 or Wei4 Ji4? - see 63. above) > > Thank you very much for your answers. > > Wansui! > Boyler > > ===== > To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org > from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------ End of hexagram-8-digest V1 #199 ********************************