From owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Sat Jan 1 00:17:26 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA00473 for hexagram-8-outgoing; Sat, 1 Jan 2000 00:17:26 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: apocalypse.org: majordom set sender to owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org using -f Received: from tha.express-news.net (tha.express-news.net [204.57.68.10]) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA00469 for ; Sat, 1 Jan 2000 00:17:25 -0500 Received: from newmicronpc ([204.57.69.176]) by tha.express-news.net (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-60526U7500L4800S0V35) with SMTP id net for ; Fri, 31 Dec 1999 23:19:14 -0600 Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19991231231500.007c8800@express-news.net> X-Sender: omei@express-news.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Fri, 31 Dec 1999 23:15:00 -0600 To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org From: omei shan Subject: Re: HEX8: Paper Folding and the I Ching, II In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.3.32.19991230230256.007b65d0@express-news.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Do you by any chance have a Web site where you might post a colored layout? Or have a scanned copy of it that could be forwarded to those who request it? Monica ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. From owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Sat Jan 1 00:18:37 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA00508 for hexagram-8-outgoing; Sat, 1 Jan 2000 00:18:37 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: apocalypse.org: majordom set sender to owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org using -f Received: from tha.express-news.net (tha.express-news.net [204.57.68.10]) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA00504 for ; Sat, 1 Jan 2000 00:18:36 -0500 Received: from newmicronpc ([204.57.69.176]) by tha.express-news.net (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-60526U7500L4800S0V35) with SMTP id net for ; Fri, 31 Dec 1999 23:20:26 -0600 Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19991231231612.007b06a0@express-news.net> X-Sender: omei@express-news.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Fri, 31 Dec 1999 23:16:12 -0600 To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org From: omei shan Subject: Re: HEX8: Paper Folding and the I Ching, II Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Sorry! This e-Mail was for "cabeal" ! Monica > >Do you by any chance have a Web site where you might post a colored layout? > >Or have a scanned copy of it that could be forwarded to those who request it? > > >Monica > > ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. From owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Sat Jan 1 00:48:47 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA01067 for hexagram-8-outgoing; Sat, 1 Jan 2000 00:48:47 -0500 Received: from clavin.efn.org (root@clavin.efn.org [206.163.176.10]) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA01063 for ; Sat, 1 Jan 2000 00:48:45 -0500 Received: from garcia.efn.org (cabeal@garcia.efn.org [206.163.176.5]) by clavin.efn.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA02901 for ; Fri, 31 Dec 1999 21:50:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (cabeal@localhost) by garcia.efn.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA26241 for ; Fri, 31 Dec 1999 21:50:30 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: garcia.efn.org: cabeal owned process doing -bs Date: Fri, 31 Dec 1999 21:50:29 -0800 (PST) From: cabeal To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Subject: Re: HEX8: Paper Folding and the I Ching, II In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19991231221942.007b6790@express-news.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org On Fri, 31 Dec 1999, omei shan wrote: > I'll try the coloring and see what I come up with. Do you use different > colors or simply shades of gray? What is the minimum number you recommend > for this? I actually do the spectrum thing and chose red for the most yang and violet for the most yin. 6 yang lines - red, 5 yang - pink, 4 yang - orange, 3 yang - yellow, 2 yang - greem, 1 yang - blue, 0 yang - violet. > > Thank you for sharing this technique! Sounds fascinating! Intriguing! I figured you would get it. There's a lot more. I'm looking forward to a dialogue. How do I learn more about your patterns? I seem to have missed the particulars. BTW, Have you read Katya Walter - the Tao of Chaos? Cynthia > > > Monica > > > > > > ===== > To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org > from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. > ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. From owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Sat Jan 1 08:30:19 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA08999 for hexagram-8-outgoing; Sat, 1 Jan 2000 08:30:19 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: apocalypse.org: majordom set sender to owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org using -f Received: from serveur.creaweb.fr (mail.creaweb.fr [194.98.233.61]) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA08995 for ; Sat, 1 Jan 2000 08:30:18 -0500 Received: from [194.98.233.147] by serveur.creaweb.fr (post.office MTA v2.0 0813 ID# 104-13810) with SMTP id AAA130 for ; Sat, 1 Jan 2000 20:30:44 +0000 Subject: Re: HEX8: Paper Folding and the I Ching, III Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2000 14:32:28 +0000 x-sender: kirk@mail.creaweb.fr x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0v3, January 22, 1998 From: kirk@mcelhearn.com (Kirk Mcelhearn) To: "I Ching list" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Message-ID: <20000101203044061.AAA130@[194.98.233.147]> Sender: owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org On 31/12/99 5:19, omei shan, omei@express-news.net, is reported to have said: >IF - IF - IF - paper folding played any role at all in the development of >the I Ching, >(remember - paper wasn't invented until 305AD, and didn't make it into >common use for a couple of centuries after that!), I can see why Fu Hsi >stopped at 64. Well, you sum it up pretty well. Assuming that paper had any effect on the origin of the Yi is quite ludicrous. However, pre-paper Yi Jings were written on strips of bamboo. Have you ever seen what they looked like? Perhaps there is something you could look at there. They were thin strips, tied together in a roll. Kirk vice | versa Translations from French to English, English to French Traductions francais-anglais, anglais-francais kirk@mcelhearn.com http://www.mcelhearn.com Kirk McElhearn | 91 rue de la Mesangerie | 37540 St Cyr sur Loire | France O=c=O O=c=O O=c=O O=c=O O=c=O O=c=O O=c=O O=c=O O=c=O O=c=O ONE PIXEL EQUALS ONE MOLECULE OF CO2 O=c=O O=c=O O=c=O O=c=O O=c=O O=c=O O=c=O O=c=O O=c=O O=c=O ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. From owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Sat Jan 1 20:50:52 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id UAA28668 for hexagram-8-outgoing; Sat, 1 Jan 2000 20:50:52 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: apocalypse.org: majordom set sender to owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org using -f Received: from tha.express-news.net (tha.express-news.net [204.57.68.10]) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA28664 for ; Sat, 1 Jan 2000 20:50:51 -0500 Received: from newmicronpc ([204.57.69.127]) by tha.express-news.net (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-60526U7500L4800S0V35) with SMTP id net for ; Sat, 1 Jan 2000 19:52:47 -0600 Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.20000101194832.007c1670@express-news.net> X-Sender: omei@express-news.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Sat, 01 Jan 2000 19:48:32 -0600 To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org From: omei shan Subject: Re: HEX8: Paper Folding and the I Ching, II In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.3.32.19991231221942.007b6790@express-news.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org >I actually do the spectrum thing and chose red for the most yang and >violet for the most yin. 6 yang lines - red, 5 yang - pink, 4 yang - >orange, 3 yang - yellow, 2 yang - greem, 1 yang - blue, 0 yang - violet. > >I figured you would get it. > This is what I think so far - How close am I? It appears that the Fu Hsi layout attempts to mirror physical reality and/or properties, while the King Wen layout is based on visual pattern(s). Does that sound right to you? If that is indeed the case, what do you think he was trying to show us? >There's a lot more. > I'm game! >BTW, Have you read Katya Walter - the Tao of Chaos? > That very book is listed under recommended reading in my book! Wonderful stuff! This is just me, but I'm not 100% convinced that there is a correlation between the I Ching and DNA, just like I'm not convinced there's a correlation between the Kabbalah and the Tarot's Major Arcana. There's 24 beers in a case and 24 hours in a day, but you don't hear many people trying to show a relationship between those two. :-) Monica ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. From owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Sat Jan 1 21:02:06 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id VAA29029 for hexagram-8-outgoing; Sat, 1 Jan 2000 21:02:06 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: apocalypse.org: majordom set sender to owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org using -f Received: from tha.express-news.net (tha.express-news.net [204.57.68.10]) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA29016 for ; Sat, 1 Jan 2000 21:02:05 -0500 Received: from newmicronpc ([204.57.69.127]) by tha.express-news.net (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-60526U7500L4800S0V35) with SMTP id net for ; Sat, 1 Jan 2000 20:04:01 -0600 Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.20000101195946.007c60e0@express-news.net> X-Sender: omei@express-news.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Sat, 01 Jan 2000 19:59:46 -0600 To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org From: omei shan Subject: Re: HEX8: Paper Folding and the I Ching, III In-Reply-To: <20000101203044061.AAA130@[194.98.233.147]> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org >Well, you sum it up pretty well. Assuming that paper had any effect on >the origin of the Yi is quite ludicrous. > This is interesting. Why? Why couldn't it have any effect? I've never seen ANY drawings of Fu Hsi with the full 8X8, I've only ever seen drawings of him with the 8 trigrams... Monica ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. From owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Sat Jan 1 21:29:37 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id VAA29934 for hexagram-8-outgoing; Sat, 1 Jan 2000 21:29:37 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: apocalypse.org: majordom set sender to owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org using -f Received: from dns.pacinter.net (dns.pacinter.net [198.107.136.194]) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA29930 for ; Sat, 1 Jan 2000 21:29:36 -0500 Received: from default ([198.107.136.170]) by dns.pacinter.net (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO205-101c) ID# 0-38153U610L100S0) with SMTP id AAA378 for ; Sat, 1 Jan 2000 18:23:46 -0800 Message-ID: <000f01bf54ca$134550e0$aa886bc6@default> From: osiris@pacinter.net (Scott Ransom) To: References: <3.0.3.32.19991231221942.007b6790@express-news.net> <3.0.3.32.20000101194832.007c1670@express-news.net> Subject: Re: HEX8: Paper Folding and the I Ching, II Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2000 18:35:45 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Sender: owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org > There's 24 > beers in a case and 24 hours in a day, but you don't hear many people > trying to show a relationship between those two. :-) Well, what good is pointing out the obvious? Isn't a beer an hour standard operating procedure for everyone? Scott ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. From owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Sat Jan 1 21:37:48 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id VAA30280 for hexagram-8-outgoing; Sat, 1 Jan 2000 21:37:48 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: apocalypse.org: majordom set sender to owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org using -f Received: from tha.express-news.net (tha.express-news.net [204.57.68.10]) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA30274 for ; Sat, 1 Jan 2000 21:37:47 -0500 Received: from newmicronpc ([204.57.69.127]) by tha.express-news.net (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-60526U7500L4800S0V35) with SMTP id net for ; Sat, 1 Jan 2000 20:39:43 -0600 Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.20000101203528.007ce300@express-news.net> X-Sender: omei@express-news.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Sat, 01 Jan 2000 20:35:28 -0600 To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org From: omei shan Subject: Re: HEX8: Paper Folding and the I Ching, II In-Reply-To: <000f01bf54ca$134550e0$aa886bc6@default> References: <3.0.3.32.19991231221942.007b6790@express-news.net> <3.0.3.32.20000101194832.007c1670@express-news.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org >Well, what good is pointing out the obvious? Isn't a beer an hour standard >operating procedure for everyone? > :-) Monica ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. From owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Sun Jan 2 03:11:29 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id DAA06423 for hexagram-8-outgoing; Sun, 2 Jan 2000 03:11:29 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: apocalypse.org: majordom set sender to owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org using -f Received: from mta2.snfc21.pbi.net (mta2.snfc21.pbi.net [206.13.28.123]) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id DAA06419 for ; Sun, 2 Jan 2000 03:11:27 -0500 Received: from pacbell.net ([207.215.85.160]) by mta2.snfc21.pbi.net (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.1999.09.16.21.57.p8) with ESMTP id <0FNP006RH85S3L@mta2.snfc21.pbi.net> for hexagram-8@apocalypse.org; Sun, 2 Jan 2000 00:13:05 -0800 (PST) Date: Sun, 02 Jan 2000 00:12:48 -0800 From: Ray Langley Subject: Re: HEX8: Paper Folding and the I Ching, II To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Message-id: <386F0880.30DE6B66@pacbell.net> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en] (Win98; U) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Accept-Language: en References: <3.0.3.32.19991231221942.007b6790@express-news.net> <3.0.3.32.20000101194832.007c1670@express-news.net> <000f01bf54ca$134550e0$aa886bc6@default> Sender: owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org > > There's 24 > > beers in a case and 24 hours in a day, but you don't hear many people > > trying to show a relationship between those two. :-) > > Well, what good is pointing out the obvious? Isn't a beer an hour > standard operating procedure for everyone? > Scott ...maybe for you slackers... after all, there are 64 (hic!) hexagrams in a dhay... :-) Happy New Year everyone. -- Warmest Regards, Ray Have Luo Pan, Will Travel! ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. From owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Sun Jan 2 10:24:30 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA12255 for hexagram-8-outgoing; Sun, 2 Jan 2000 10:24:30 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: apocalypse.org: majordom set sender to owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org using -f Received: from serveur.creaweb.fr (mail.creaweb.fr [194.98.233.61]) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA12251 for ; Sun, 2 Jan 2000 10:24:29 -0500 Received: from [194.98.233.163] by serveur.creaweb.fr (post.office MTA v2.0 0813 ID# 104-13810) with SMTP id AAA46 for ; Sun, 2 Jan 2000 22:25:24 +0000 Subject: Re: HEX8: Paper Folding and the I Ching, III Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2000 16:26:49 +0000 x-sender: kirk@mail.creaweb.fr x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0v3, January 22, 1998 From: kirk@mcelhearn.com (Kirk Mcelhearn) To: "I Ching list" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Message-ID: <20000102222524651.AAA46@[194.98.233.163]> Sender: owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org On 2/01/00 1:59, omei shan, omei@express-news.net, is reported to have said: > >>Well, you sum it up pretty well. Assuming that paper had any effect on >>the origin of the Yi is quite ludicrous. >> >This is interesting. Why? Why couldn't it have any effect? Well, since paper did not exist, and the Yi was not, at that time, on paper, ... Kirk vice | versa Translations from French to English, English to French Traductions francais-anglais, anglais-francais kirk@mcelhearn.com http://www.mcelhearn.com Kirk McElhearn | 91 rue de la Mesangerie | 37540 St Cyr sur Loire | France O=c=O O=c=O O=c=O O=c=O O=c=O O=c=O O=c=O CARBON-POWERED NETWORKS RUIN THE CLIMATE O=c=O O=c=O O=c=O O=c=O O=c=O O=c=O O=c=O ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. From owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Sun Jan 2 20:04:35 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id UAA30291 for hexagram-8-outgoing; Sun, 2 Jan 2000 20:04:35 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: apocalypse.org: majordom set sender to owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org using -f Received: from imo16.mx.aol.com (imo16.mx.aol.com [152.163.225.6]) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA30287 for ; Sun, 2 Jan 2000 20:04:33 -0500 From: Fergust@aol.com Received: from Fergust@aol.com by imo16.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v24.6.) id h.0.1ff36242 (3867) for ; Sun, 2 Jan 2000 20:06:01 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <0.1ff36242.25a14ff8@aol.com> Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2000 20:06:00 EST Subject: Re: HEX8: Paper Folding and the I Ching, II To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Windows AOL sub 45 Sender: owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Hi, I don't know if this is what you are looking for, but a few years ago, I tried something that proved very interesting. First of all I drew a circle and divided it with 64 lines. I placed the number of each Hexagrams around the circle in the book sequence from Wilhelms book (actually, I did this twice, once using the Book Sequence and once using the Binary sequence. Each gave unique results). I placed a pin at the junction of each line and the edge of the circle and one in the middle of the circle. I collected the King Wen Numbers (12 - 18) for each Hexagram, which is also related to the number of lines in each Hexagram, and decided on a color for each number (12 = white, 18 = black, 13 = blue, etc.) At this point I raided my wife's thread and began tying the related color thread from the center pin to the outer pin for each Hexagram. I failed the first time because I made my first circle too small. Once I enlarged the circle things went very quickly. Once it was completed, I could see patterns, designs and relationships that I never saw by just reading the text. If you try this or a similar method, I would advise using very bright colors and draw your circle on a paper that allows you to see the interrelations of the colors. It has been said that enlightenment comes to those that can leap past the logical and embrace the non-logical that dwells beyond the limits of our minds. Another way of saying this is that we learn when we allow learning to be fun, like using colored strings and paper. Tom ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. From owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Mon Jan 3 14:20:49 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA03762 for hexagram-8-outgoing; Mon, 3 Jan 2000 14:20:49 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: apocalypse.org: majordom set sender to owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org using -f Received: from imo27.mx.aol.com (imo27.mx.aol.com [152.163.225.71]) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA03758 for ; Mon, 3 Jan 2000 14:20:48 -0500 From: Autorbis@aol.com Received: from Autorbis@aol.com by imo27.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v24.6.) id i.0.ee02be6f (673); Mon, 3 Jan 2000 14:22:24 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <0.ee02be6f.25a250f0@aol.com> Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2000 14:22:24 EST Subject: HEX8: Re: Chess 64 Squares another form of Yin-Yang To: bir187@hotmail.com CC: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0.i for Windows sub 85 Sender: owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Hi Sergio << Hi Lothar and Ely, I am copying you both because I never get anything posted on Hex-8. Just readig a copy of Scientific american today on mathematics, they mentioned chess. The game. After looking at Wilhelm's table for so long, I never realized that it looks exactly like a chess board with 64 squares. If you look at the chess board, it actually is a yin/yang grid. I am trying to figure out it there is a better way to place the 64 hexagrams on the square. Does anybody know what what was the basis Wilhelm used for this order, is there one, or is it random? Isn't this interesting? Imagine if there were a relationship between the figures. Like a game. Say for example the King that is mentioned, or the army. This has given me an idea. I am going to build my own board. I will place tha 64 hexagrams and place a couple of tokens. I will begin to see how they move, and if there is any relationship between the cycles. Any ideas? regards, Sergio >> Hi Sergio, somehow anything is yin + yang :-) Why not also a chess-board? Chinese chess is played at the lines, not the field, by this using a 9x9-grid instead of 8x8. Also it has no black and white fields. So only Western chess is in this way Yin+Yang. There are 64x63x62x60x56x48x32 "good arrangements" of hexagrams at a chess-board, if you do apply a special mathematical rule. The rule is, that 3 hexagrams ABC do define the position of a forth hexagram D at the chess-board. For instance: ABCDXXXX XXXXXXXX XXXXXXXX XXXXXXXX XXXXXXXX XXXXXXXX XXXXXXXX XXXXXXXX ABXXXXXX CDXXXXXX XXXXXXXX XXXXXXXX XXXXXXXX XXXXXXXX XXXXXXXX XXXXXXXX AXXXXXXB XXXXXXXX XXXXXXXX XXXXXXXX XXXXXXXX XXXXXXXX XXXXXXXX CXXXXXXD The mathematical rule is: If 3 equal lines (1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th or 6th) of 3 hexagrams ABC (marked with 1 and 0) ... add to 3, then D is 1 add to 2, then D is 0 add to 1, then D is 1 add to 0, then D is 0 When you build up the board like this, you'll detect the rules of the "magical-chess-board" :-) Much fun. I forwarded your post to hex.8 Hi Master of this group, Sergio seems to have trouble to send something to hexagram-8. Greetings Lothar ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. From owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Mon Jan 3 14:20:31 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA03729 for hexagram-8-outgoing; Mon, 3 Jan 2000 14:20:31 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: apocalypse.org: majordom set sender to owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org using -f Received: from imo28.mx.aol.com (imo28.mx.aol.com [152.163.225.72]) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA03721 for ; Mon, 3 Jan 2000 14:20:31 -0500 From: Autorbis@aol.com Received: from Autorbis@aol.com by imo28.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v24.6.) id h.0.8af04b49 (673) for ; Mon, 3 Jan 2000 14:22:27 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <0.8af04b49.25a250f3@aol.com> Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2000 14:22:27 EST Subject: Re: HEX8: Paper Folding and the I Ching, II To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0.i for Windows sub 85 Sender: owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org << >I actually do the spectrum thing and chose red for the most yang and >violet for the most yin. 6 yang lines - red, 5 yang - pink, 4 yang - >orange, 3 yang - yellow, 2 yang - greem, 1 yang - blue, 0 yang - violet. > >I figured you would get it. > >> There is more then one theory of colour. One (used in practical painting) orders colours like this: red is a base colour yellow is a base colour blue is a base colour orange develops from the addition of red + yellow violett develops from the addition of red + blue green develops from the addition of yellow + blue If you define now, that: 100 = red = thunder 010 = blue = water 001 = yellow = mountain (of course, perhaps you can define different) then: 110 = violett (100 + 010) = lake 101 = orange (100 + 001) = fire 011 = green (010 + 011) = wood, wind As 100 and 011 present the 1st line of the trigram, that is 1st + 4th of the hexagram, and 1st line is considered to be yang and 6th is considered to be yin and trigram-sons (= 100 + 010 + 001) are yang and trigram-daughters (011 + 101 + 110) are yin and that the other trigrams can be sorted under the same condition: 100 = thunder = 1st line = red 101 = fire = 2nd line = orange 001 = mountain = 3rd line = yellow 011 = wind = 4th line = green 010 = water = 5th line = blue 110 = lake = 6th line = violett Of course it's only one way, how to to do it .... :-) Lothar ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. From owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Mon Jan 3 17:32:11 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA15439 for hexagram-8-outgoing; Mon, 3 Jan 2000 17:32:11 -0500 Received: from clavin.efn.org (root@clavin.efn.org [206.163.176.10]) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA15435 for ; Mon, 3 Jan 2000 17:32:09 -0500 Received: from garcia.efn.org (cabeal@garcia.efn.org [206.163.176.5]) by clavin.efn.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA27899 for ; Mon, 3 Jan 2000 14:34:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (cabeal@localhost) by garcia.efn.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA22336 for ; Mon, 3 Jan 2000 14:34:12 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: garcia.efn.org: cabeal owned process doing -bs Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2000 14:34:12 -0800 (PST) From: cabeal To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Subject: HEX8: Coloring Ching In-Reply-To: <0.8af04b49.25a250f3@aol.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org I'll definitely try this! You bring in 2 more orders of complexity, one of which I've tried (trigrams colored, rather than whole hexagrams, yielding another set of patterns) and lines colored. Since each trigram can now have a background base color *and* 3 different colors of lines, you can now see an even more varied weave rather than the simply use of black and white. The meaning of the individual parts, hard to hold in mind for the average untutored mind like mine, is simpler to grasp as an *analog* to the symbolic representation of the elements. Thanks for the thought! cynthia cabeal@efn.org On Mon, 3 Jan 2000 Autorbis@aol.com wrote: > << >I actually do the spectrum thing and chose red for the most yang and > >violet for the most yin. 6 yang lines - red, 5 yang - pink, 4 yang - > >orange, 3 yang - yellow, 2 yang - greem, 1 yang - blue, 0 yang - violet. > > > >I figured you would get it. > > >> > > There is more then one theory of colour. One (used in practical painting) > orders colours like this: > > red is a base colour > yellow is a base colour > blue is a base colour > > orange develops from the addition of red + yellow > violett develops from the addition of red + blue > green develops from the addition of yellow + blue > > If you define now, that: > > 100 = red = thunder > 010 = blue = water > 001 = yellow = mountain > > (of course, perhaps you can define different) > > then: > > 110 = violett (100 + 010) = lake > 101 = orange (100 + 001) = fire > 011 = green (010 + 011) = wood, wind > > As 100 and 011 present the 1st line of the trigram, that is 1st + 4th of the > hexagram, and 1st line is considered to be yang and 6th is considered to be > yin and trigram-sons (= 100 + 010 + 001) are yang and trigram-daughters (011 > + 101 + 110) are yin and that the other trigrams can be sorted under the same > condition: > > 100 = thunder = 1st line = red > 101 = fire = 2nd line = orange > 001 = mountain = 3rd line = yellow > 011 = wind = 4th line = green > 010 = water = 5th line = blue > 110 = lake = 6th line = violett > > Of course it's only one way, how to to do it .... :-) > > Lothar > > > ===== > To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org > from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. > ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. From owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Mon Jan 3 20:16:47 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id UAA23689 for hexagram-8-outgoing; Mon, 3 Jan 2000 20:16:47 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: apocalypse.org: majordom set sender to owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org using -f Received: from mail1.crcom.net (mail1.crcom.net [208.220.74.12]) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA23685 for ; Mon, 3 Jan 2000 20:16:46 -0500 Received: from ccbswks21.xroadstx.com (max07-17.crcom.net [208.239.25.74]) by mail1.crcom.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id TAA19401 for ; Mon, 3 Jan 2000 19:18:54 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <387148EF.13E2@crcom.net> Date: Mon, 03 Jan 2000 19:12:15 -0600 From: Charlie Higgins Organization: New Insights on Ancient Paradigms X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Subject: Re: HEX8: Coloring Ching References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org cabeal wrote: > > I'll definitely try this! You bring in 2 more orders of complexity, one of > which I've tried (trigrams colored, rather than whole hexagrams, yielding > another set of patterns) and lines colored. Since each trigram can now > have a background base color *and* 3 different colors of lines, you can > now see an even more varied weave rather than the simply use of black and > white. The meaning of the individual parts, hard to hold in mind for the > average untutored mind like mine, is simpler to grasp as an *analog* to > the symbolic representation of the elements. > > Thanks for the thought! > Let me add that I have done some research indirectly with colors as well. Like Lothar my investigations are based on parallels between other philosophies and also represent the mingling of colors such as blue and red yeilding violet. The exception is that I did not arbitrarily assign colors. I use as a base the colors associated with the sephira of the Formative World of the Kabbalistic Tree of Life. This developed into a division of the upper trigram containing red, blue and yellow, and the lower trigram consisting of orange, green and violet. Those of you interested might want to review my article located at... http://www.Mension.com/del_3.htm I do not specifically discuss the colors; however, in each diagram I show the colors associated with each line of the hexagram. I also parallel the lines of the hexagram to the major arcana of the tarot plus present my personal views on the meanings of the lines of the hexagram in relation to human nature. Some of you may find it interesting... Charlie Higgins ---------------------- Mensionization Complementation New Insights on Ancient Paradigms http://www.mension.com ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. From owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Mon Jan 3 20:55:03 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id UAA25642 for hexagram-8-outgoing; Mon, 3 Jan 2000 20:55:03 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: apocalypse.org: majordom set sender to owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org using -f Received: from mta3.snfc21.pbi.net (mta3.snfc21.pbi.net [206.13.28.141]) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA25635 for ; Mon, 3 Jan 2000 20:55:00 -0500 Received: from pacbell.net ([209.77.88.195]) by mta3.snfc21.pbi.net (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.1999.09.16.21.57.p8) with ESMTP id <0FNS0032XG2AAN@mta3.snfc21.pbi.net> for hexagram-8@apocalypse.org; Mon, 3 Jan 2000 17:56:36 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 03 Jan 2000 17:56:19 -0800 From: Ray Langley Subject: Re: HEX8: Coloring Ching To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Message-id: <38715343.3ED333E4@pacbell.net> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en] (Win98; U) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Accept-Language: en References: <387148EF.13E2@crcom.net> Sender: owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org > Let me add that I have done some research indirectly with colors as > well. Like Lothar my investigations are based on parallels between > other philosophies and also represent the mingling of colors such as > blue and red yeilding violet. The exception is that I did not > arbitrarily assign colors. I use as a base the colors associated with > the sephira of the Formative World of the Kabbalistic Tree of Life. > This developed into a division of the upper trigram containing red, blue > and yellow, and the lower trigram consisting of orange, green and > violet. Those of you interested might want to review my article > located at... > > http://www.Mension.com/del_3.htm > > I do not specifically discuss the colors; however, in each diagram I > show the colors associated with each line of the hexagram. I also > parallel the lines of the hexagram to the major arcana of the tarot plus > present my personal views on the meanings of the lines of the hexagram > in relation to human nature. Some of you may find it interesting... > > Charlie Higgins Hi Charlie. Has anyone investigated the electronic "Primary" colors of mixing RGB (Red-Green-Blue)? -- Warmest Regards, Ray Have Luo Pan, Will Travel! ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. From owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Mon Jan 3 21:07:41 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id VAA26301 for hexagram-8-outgoing; Mon, 3 Jan 2000 21:07:41 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: apocalypse.org: majordom set sender to owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org using -f Received: from mail1.crcom.net (mail1.crcom.net [208.220.74.12]) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA26297 for ; Mon, 3 Jan 2000 21:07:40 -0500 Received: from ccbswks21.xroadstx.com (max07-17.crcom.net [208.239.25.74]) by mail1.crcom.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id UAA23137 for ; Mon, 3 Jan 2000 20:09:51 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <387154E0.1D56@crcom.net> Date: Mon, 03 Jan 2000 20:03:12 -0600 From: Charlie Higgins Organization: New Insights on Ancient Paradigms X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Subject: Re: HEX8: Coloring Ching References: <387148EF.13E2@crcom.net> <38715343.3ED333E4@pacbell.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Ray Langley wrote: > > Hi Charlie. > Has anyone investigated the electronic "Primary" colors of mixing > RGB (Red-Green-Blue)? > -- > Warmest Regards, Ray > Have Luo Pan, Will Travel! > Not to my knowledge Ray... The problem I see with this is that 'green' is a mixture of colors, yellow and blue, not a major color like red, blue and yelloow. If anyone has any information on this I would like to know. Charlie ---------------------- Mensionization Complementation New Insights on Ancient Paradigms http://www.mension.com ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. From owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Tue Jan 4 15:42:12 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA05367 for hexagram-8-outgoing; Tue, 4 Jan 2000 15:42:12 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: apocalypse.org: majordom set sender to owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org using -f Received: from voicenet.com (mail12.voicenet.com [207.103.0.6]) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id PAA05362 for ; Tue, 4 Jan 2000 15:42:11 -0500 Message-Id: <200001042042.PAA05362@apocalypse.org> Received: (qmail 11685 invoked from network); 4 Jan 2000 20:44:28 -0000 Received: from dialpool1036-pri.voicenet.com (HELO sand1) (209.71.88.103) by mail12.voicenet.com with SMTP; 4 Jan 2000 20:44:28 -0000 From: "Aquel" To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2000 15:44:31 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: HEX8: The Omega effect... X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.12a) Sender: owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Hello all, As I usually do every beginning of the year, on the 1st of January I consulted the Yi to see what the year ahead has in store. Well, after so many years, the little sage hidden in the pages keeps surprising me... :-) You will soon see why I titled this message as I did. The answer hexagram, with NO MOVING lines and synchronicity to the max was "Hexagram 8" (as I type this I realize is the namesake of this list...). The answer is very good in itself but, and a BIG BUT at that, it suggest that you consult the Oracle one more time. So, I untied my yarrow stalks, again, and off I went for the suggested answer. Lo and behold, it replied as follow: 968889 (Hex-27) Which as we change the moving lines give us: 878888 (Hex-7)!! A full loop back to give us the other leg of Omega in the 7 & 8 pair of Hexagrams! Needless to say, I am still laughing about it... :-) Cheers, Luis Andrade _ _ /_\ __ _ _ _ ___| | //_\\ / _` | | | |/ _ \ | / _ \ (_| | |_| | __/ | \_/ \_/\__, |\__,_|\___|_| |_| ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. From owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Tue Jan 4 16:08:17 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA07680 for hexagram-8-outgoing; Tue, 4 Jan 2000 16:08:17 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: apocalypse.org: majordom set sender to owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org using -f Received: from voicenet.com (mail12.voicenet.com [207.103.0.6]) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id QAA07675 for ; Tue, 4 Jan 2000 16:08:16 -0500 Message-Id: <200001042108.QAA07675@apocalypse.org> Received: (qmail 27035 invoked from network); 4 Jan 2000 21:10:33 -0000 Received: from dialpool1036-pri.voicenet.com (HELO sand1) (209.71.88.103) by mail12.voicenet.com with SMTP; 4 Jan 2000 21:10:33 -0000 From: "Aquel" To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2000 16:10:36 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: HEX8: Labyrinths, Paths and Patterns X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.12a) Sender: owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Since one of the subjects of the last few days has been the one of finding interesting visual patterns based on the I Ching, be it by paper folding or by applying colours to the trigrams and lines, here is something interesting I did many years ago. My goal was to have a convenient way to depict all the Hexagrams in a small piece of paper that I could put in my wallet. One simple way to do this is by using a paper tape calculator and start entering all the hexagrams by using 9's and 6's as the lines (i.e. 999999, 666666, etc.) and hitting the + key after each completed hexagram. However something interesting surfaced when I tried another approach. I took a piece of "squared" paper and substituted Yang lines for a "forward slash" (/) and Yin lines for a "backward slash" (\), building the hexagrams from bottom to top, as usual, and in consecutive columns of squares (so they would all stay together and no column gaps in between). Once you have a "ribbon" of Hexagrams, look for patterns. One beautifully symmetrical one appears with four hexagrams (37,38,39 and 40), which is the only case, using this method, in which a symmetrical pattern of 4 hexagrams appears in the Kin Wen sequence. If you want to explore an interesting labyrinth, cut the ribbon in two equal halves (1-32 and 33-64) and place the second one beneath the first. I am sure you will enjoy following the unbroken paths between the hexagrams as well as the abrupt endings to some of those paths. All the best, Luis Andrade _ _ /_\ __ _ _ _ ___| | //_\\ / _` | | | |/ _ \ | / _ \ (_| | |_| | __/ | \_/ \_/\__, |\__,_|\___|_| |_| ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. From owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Tue Jan 4 18:53:16 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA19240 for hexagram-8-outgoing; Tue, 4 Jan 2000 18:53:16 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: apocalypse.org: majordom set sender to owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org using -f Received: from fireserv.cobank.com ([199.197.20.239]) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA19236 for ; Tue, 4 Jan 2000 18:53:14 -0500 Received: from svrdenexch.cobank (exchange [190.120.176.250]) by fireserv.cobank.com (8.8.8+Sun/8.8.6) with ESMTP id RAA23936 for ; Tue, 4 Jan 2000 17:01:36 -0700 (MST) Received: by SVRDENEXCH with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) id ; Tue, 4 Jan 2000 16:55:10 -0700 Message-ID: From: "Schmidt, Walter." To: "'hexagram-8@apocalypse.org'" Subject: RE: HEX8: Re: Chess 64 Squares another form of Yin-Yang Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2000 16:55:08 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Regarding the chess board discussion, I have a vague recollection of a reference in a book called "The Pristine Yi Ching" by one of Aleicster Crowley's followers, to a western chess-related method of consulting the I Ching. It involved assigning each square a hexagram, and the reading being taken from the square on which the losing king was mated. No moving lines or second hexagram. I haven't tried it but the idea doesn't offend me. ws > -----Original Message----- > From: Autorbis@aol.com [SMTP:Autorbis@aol.com] > Sent: Monday, January 03, 2000 1:22 PM > To: bir187@hotmail.com > Cc: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org > Subject: HEX8: Re: Chess 64 Squares another form of Yin-Yang > > Hi Sergio > > << Hi Lothar and Ely, > > I am copying you both because I never get anything posted on Hex-8. > > Just readig a copy of Scientific american today on mathematics, they > mentioned chess. The game. After looking at Wilhelm's table for so > long, I > never realized that it looks exactly like a chess board with > 64 squares. If you look at the chess board, it actually is a yin/yang > grid. > > I am trying to figure out it there is a better way to place the 64 > hexagrams > on the square. Does anybody know what what was the basis Wilhelm used > for > this order, is there one, or is it random? > > Isn't this interesting? Imagine if there were a relationship between the > > figures. Like a game. Say for example the King that is mentioned, or > the > army. > > This has given me an idea. I am going to build my own board. I will > place > tha 64 hexagrams and place a couple of tokens. I will begin to see how > they > move, and if there is any relationship between the cycles. Any ideas? > > regards, > > > Sergio >> > > Hi Sergio, > > somehow anything is yin + yang :-) Why not also a chess-board? Chinese > chess > is played at the lines, not the field, by this using a 9x9-grid instead of > > 8x8. Also it has no black and white fields. So only Western chess is in > this > way Yin+Yang. > > There are 64x63x62x60x56x48x32 "good arrangements" of hexagrams at a > chess-board, if you do apply a special mathematical rule. The rule is, > that 3 > hexagrams ABC do define the position of a forth hexagram D at the > chess-board. > > For instance: > > ABCDXXXX > XXXXXXXX > XXXXXXXX > XXXXXXXX > XXXXXXXX > XXXXXXXX > XXXXXXXX > XXXXXXXX > > ABXXXXXX > CDXXXXXX > XXXXXXXX > XXXXXXXX > XXXXXXXX > XXXXXXXX > XXXXXXXX > XXXXXXXX > > AXXXXXXB > XXXXXXXX > XXXXXXXX > XXXXXXXX > XXXXXXXX > XXXXXXXX > XXXXXXXX > CXXXXXXD > > The mathematical rule is: > If 3 equal lines (1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th or 6th) of 3 hexagrams ABC > (marked > with 1 and 0) ... > > add to 3, then D is 1 > add to 2, then D is 0 > add to 1, then D is 1 > add to 0, then D is 0 > > When you build up the board like this, you'll detect the rules of the > "magical-chess-board" :-) Much fun. > > I forwarded your post to hex.8 > > Hi Master of this group, > Sergio seems to have trouble to send something to hexagram-8. > > Greetings > > Lothar > > > ===== > To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org > from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. From owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Wed Jan 5 00:47:45 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA32433 for hexagram-8-outgoing; Wed, 5 Jan 2000 00:47:45 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: apocalypse.org: majordom set sender to owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org using -f Received: from tha.express-news.net (tha.express-news.net [204.57.68.10]) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA32429 for ; Wed, 5 Jan 2000 00:47:44 -0500 Received: from newmicronpc ([207.235.13.44]) by tha.express-news.net (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-60526U7500L4800S0V35) with SMTP id net for ; Tue, 4 Jan 2000 23:50:02 -0600 Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.20000104234549.007ad620@express-news.net> X-Sender: omei@express-news.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Tue, 04 Jan 2000 23:45:49 -0600 To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org From: omei shan Subject: Re: HEX8: Paper Folding and the I Ching, III In-Reply-To: <20000102222524651.AAA46@[194.98.233.163]> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org >>>Well, you sum it up pretty well. Assuming that paper had any effect on >>>the origin of the Yi is quite ludicrous. >>> >>This is interesting. Why? Why couldn't it have any effect? > >Well, since paper did not exist, and the Yi was not, at that time, on >paper, ... > I agree that paper as we know it did not exist at the time. We just have to assume the timing of the legends is correct. However, I do think that paper folding influenced the DEVELOPMENT of what we call the Fu Hsi arrangement. Within the bounds of the 8X8, the layout forms what I believe is called a "magic square," where the numbers are laid out in a manner that produces certain results. The relationship of the sections to each other remains the same whether one chooses 4 or 100. Monica ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. From owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Wed Jan 5 00:55:15 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA00445 for hexagram-8-outgoing; Wed, 5 Jan 2000 00:55:15 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: apocalypse.org: majordom set sender to owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org using -f Received: from tha.express-news.net (tha.express-news.net [204.57.68.10]) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA00441 for ; Wed, 5 Jan 2000 00:55:14 -0500 Received: from newmicronpc ([207.235.13.44]) by tha.express-news.net (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-60526U7500L4800S0V35) with SMTP id net for ; Tue, 4 Jan 2000 23:57:34 -0600 Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.20000104235321.007bdda0@express-news.net> X-Sender: omei@express-news.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Tue, 04 Jan 2000 23:53:21 -0600 To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org From: omei shan Subject: Re: HEX8: Paper Folding and the I Ching, II In-Reply-To: <0.1ff36242.25a14ff8@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org > I don't know if this is what you are looking for, but a few years ago, I > tried something that proved very interesting. > Most excellent! I've always felt that true understanding of the I Ching would come from some from of physical manipulation of a layout, as opposed to a purely cerebral study of it. This ties in so perfectly with my favorite "ancient Chinese saying:" I hear and forget. I see and remember. I do and understand. I'm going to try this! Can you give a few more details? Example: How large should the circle be? Monica ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. From owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Wed Jan 5 01:21:33 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA02124 for hexagram-8-outgoing; Wed, 5 Jan 2000 01:21:33 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: apocalypse.org: majordom set sender to owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org using -f Received: from tha.express-news.net (tha.express-news.net [204.57.68.10]) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA02118 for ; Wed, 5 Jan 2000 01:21:32 -0500 Received: from newmicronpc ([207.235.13.44]) by tha.express-news.net (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-60526U7500L4800S0V35) with SMTP id net for ; Wed, 5 Jan 2000 00:23:52 -0600 Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.20000105001939.007ad6a0@express-news.net> X-Sender: omei@express-news.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Wed, 05 Jan 2000 00:19:39 -0600 To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org From: omei shan Subject: Re: HEX8: Coloring Ching In-Reply-To: <387154E0.1D56@crcom.net> References: <387148EF.13E2@crcom.net> <38715343.3ED333E4@pacbell.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org What I would like to try is to use the 64 shades of gray that were used by NASA many years ago when they were first transmitting data. Does anyone know where I can get those shadings, or even better, how I can set them myself? Monica ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. From owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Wed Jan 5 06:00:51 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id GAA06997 for hexagram-8-outgoing; Wed, 5 Jan 2000 06:00:51 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: apocalypse.org: majordom set sender to owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org using -f Received: from turing.intertrader.com (IDENT:exim@[195.89.144.173]) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id GAA06993 for ; Wed, 5 Jan 2000 06:00:49 -0500 Received: from budvar.inside.intertrader.com ([10.0.0.6] helo=budvar) by turing.intertrader.com with smtp (Exim 3.02 #1) id 125o52-0006W8-00 for hexagram-8@apocalypse.org; Wed, 05 Jan 2000 10:54:16 +0000 Message-Id: <3.0.2.32.20000105110651.00bc0620@mail.intertrader.com> X-Sender: andreas@mail.intertrader.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.2 (32) Date: Wed, 05 Jan 2000 11:06:51 +0000 To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org From: Andreas Schoter Subject: HEX8: The role of oral traditions in the Yi In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.20000105001939.007ad6a0@express-news.net> References: <387154E0.1D56@crcom.net> <387148EF.13E2@crcom.net> <38715343.3ED333E4@pacbell.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by apocalypse.org id GAA06994 Sender: owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Hi Folks, To pick up on a pre-holiday thread... In some messages last year Ken Rose said that there was an oral tradition to the Yi and that without a knowledge of the information given by that tradition, knowledge of the Yi was unavoidably partial. Given that I have no knowledge of these traditions I cannot comment upon them directly; but, bearing that in mind, I'm interested in Ken's reaction to the following passage in the Great Treatise: Chapter XII, verse 2. The Master said: writing cannot express words completely. Words cannot express thoughts completely. Are we then unable to see the thoughts of the holy sages? The Master said: the holy sages set up the images in order to express their thoughts completely; they devised the hexagrams in order to express the true and false completely. Then they appended judgements and so could express their words completely. This seems to me to indicate that the authors of the Yi consider it to be complete and self-contained. All the Best Andreas ________________________________________________________________________ Dr Andreas Schöter Weft mailto:andreas@telinco.co.uk http://www.weft.telinco.co.uk ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. From owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Wed Jan 5 07:07:25 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id HAA07799 for hexagram-8-outgoing; Wed, 5 Jan 2000 07:07:25 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: apocalypse.org: majordom set sender to owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org using -f Received: from venus2.seark.net (root@venus.seark.net [206.156.164.132]) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA07795 for ; Wed, 5 Jan 2000 07:07:24 -0500 Received: from valuedcu (dl-sh2-224.seark.net [204.214.46.224]) by venus2.seark.net (8.9.3/8.9.1) with SMTP id GAA04119 for ; Wed, 5 Jan 2000 06:00:16 -0600 Message-ID: <000b01bf5776$519463a0$e02ed6cc@valuedcu> From: "jayem" To: References: <387154E0.1D56@crcom.net><387148EF.13E2@crcom.net><38715343.3ED333E4@pacbell.net> <3.0.2.32.20000105110651.00bc0620@mail.intertrader.com> Subject: Re: HEX8: The role of oral traditions in the Yi Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2000 06:13:45 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Hi Andreas, > The Master said: the holy sages set up the images in order to express their > thoughts completely; they devised the hexagrams in order to express the > true and false completely. Then they appended judgements and so could > express their words completely. > This seems to me to indicate that the authors of the Yi consider it to be > complete and self-contained. So the images came first, then the hexagrams, and lastly the judgements. What are the images that the hexagrams are based on? Best to you too, ~Jay~ ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. From owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Wed Jan 5 07:39:20 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id HAA08409 for hexagram-8-outgoing; Wed, 5 Jan 2000 07:39:20 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: apocalypse.org: majordom set sender to owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org using -f Received: from venus2.seark.net (root@venus.seark.net [206.156.164.132]) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA08404 for ; Wed, 5 Jan 2000 07:39:19 -0500 Received: from valuedcu (dl-sh2-224.seark.net [204.214.46.224]) by venus2.seark.net (8.9.3/8.9.1) with SMTP id GAA04812 for ; Wed, 5 Jan 2000 06:32:42 -0600 Message-ID: <001101bf577a$d96d2a60$e02ed6cc@valuedcu> From: "jayem" To: References: Subject: Re: HEX8: Re: Chess 64 Squares another form of Yin-Yang Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2000 06:46:12 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Hey Walter, > Regarding the chess board discussion, I have a vague recollection of a > reference in a book called "The Pristine Yi Ching" by one of Aleicster > Crowley's followers, to a western chess-related method of consulting the I > Ching. It involved assigning each square a hexagram, and the reading being > taken from the square on which the losing king was mated. No moving lines > or second hexagram. I haven't tried it but the idea doesn't offend me. ws Vaguely is the best way to recall "The Pristine Yi King", but his chess method is interesting. He assigns hexagrams to the chess board by the Fu Hsi arrangement-- he considers King Wen a "Johnny-come-lately". The 6 different chess pieces represent the six lines of the hexagram: pawns=1st line, knights=2nd, bishops=3rd, rooks=4th, king=5th, and queen=6th. "The square held by the piece that checkmates the king is the oracular hexagram to your question. The square being held by the checkmated king gives the hexagram an indication of how and where your project or other person is most vulnerable." Intriguing. Maybe you could use the checkmating piece as the changing line. Ciao, ~Jay~ ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. From owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Wed Jan 5 09:14:05 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA10801 for hexagram-8-outgoing; Wed, 5 Jan 2000 09:14:05 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: apocalypse.org: majordom set sender to owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org using -f Received: from srv2.newsite.com.br (root@srv2.fns.newsite.com.br [200.194.232.2]) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA10795 for ; Wed, 5 Jan 2000 09:14:02 -0500 Received: from jorge (res-001.tr.fns.newsite.com.br [200.194.233.66]) by srv2.newsite.com.br (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id LAA21134 for ; Wed, 5 Jan 2000 11:25:11 -0200 Message-ID: <002401bf5787$3c1b8060$0200a8c0@jorge.newsite> From: "Jorge" To: Subject: Re: HEX8: Re: Chess 64 Squares another form of Yin-Yang Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2000 12:14:51 -0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Hi all (I'm back after a long interregnum) Regarding the chess 'consulting method' I don't see how can it work because: 1) Randomness is a key factor in any use of the Yi as an oracle and a chess game is not exactly random. 2) If you relate each square with an hexagram, the consultant will have obvious influence in the area of the board to which will direct the king. The same can be said about the checkmaking piece. Tchau Jorge Vulibrun Florianopolis, Brasil jorgevul@newsite.com.br -----Mensagem original----- De: jayem Para: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Data: Quarta-feira, 5 de Janeiro de 2000 09:54 Assunto: Re: HEX8: Re: Chess 64 Squares another form of Yin-Yang >Hey Walter, > >> Regarding the chess board discussion, I have a vague recollection of a >> reference in a book called "The Pristine Yi Ching" by one of Aleicster >> Crowley's followers, to a western chess-related method of consulting the I >> Ching. It involved assigning each square a hexagram, and the reading >being >> taken from the square on which the losing king was mated. No moving lines >> or second hexagram. I haven't tried it but the idea doesn't offend me. >ws > >Vaguely is the best way to recall "The Pristine Yi King", but his chess >method is interesting. He assigns hexagrams to the chess board by the Fu >Hsi arrangement-- >he considers King Wen a "Johnny-come-lately". The 6 different chess pieces >represent the six lines of the hexagram: pawns=1st line, knights=2nd, >bishops=3rd, >rooks=4th, king=5th, and queen=6th. > >"The square held by the piece that checkmates the king is the oracular >hexagram to your question. The square being held by the checkmated king >gives the hexagram an indication of how and where your project or other >person is most vulnerable." > >Intriguing. Maybe you could use the checkmating piece as the changing line. > >Ciao, >~Jay~ > > > >===== >To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org >from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. > > ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. From owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Wed Jan 5 09:56:11 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA12591 for hexagram-8-outgoing; Wed, 5 Jan 2000 09:56:11 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: apocalypse.org: majordom set sender to owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org using -f Received: from fireserv.cobank.com ([199.197.20.239]) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA12587 for ; Wed, 5 Jan 2000 09:56:09 -0500 Received: from svrdenexch.cobank (exchange [190.120.176.250]) by fireserv.cobank.com (8.8.8+Sun/8.8.6) with ESMTP id IAA03729 for ; Wed, 5 Jan 2000 08:04:36 -0700 (MST) Received: by SVRDENEXCH with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) id ; Wed, 5 Jan 2000 07:58:09 -0700 Message-ID: From: "Schmidt, Walter." To: "'hexagram-8@apocalypse.org'" Subject: RE: HEX8: Re: Chess 64 Squares another form of Yin-Yang Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2000 07:58:06 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Jorge, you wrote: "Regarding the chess 'consulting method' I don't see how can it work because: 1) Randomness is a key factor in any use of the Yi as an oracle and a chess game is not exactly random. 2) If you relate each square with an hexagram, the consultant will have obvious influence in the area of the board to which will direct the king. The same can be said about the checkmaking piece." I don't disagree with either of your observations and I'm not advocating using the "Pristine Yi Ching" chess method. I'm happy with stalks, coins, and colored beads. However, I can think of a number of ways to overcome the objections you raised. For instance, the assignment of the hexagrams to each square could be completely at random and unknown before the game starts. Or the game being played could be one between two people who do not know the significance of the mating square. Or the game could be the weekly game chosen for review by the chess commentator for the NY Times or other newspaper. (In that case, since most of those games end in resignations before mate, a computer could play the game out to a checkmate finish.) There would seem to be lots of ways to introduce the necessary randomness. Other than the novelty of the approach though, I'm not sure why one would bother. ws ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. From owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Wed Jan 5 10:06:28 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA13043 for hexagram-8-outgoing; Wed, 5 Jan 2000 10:06:28 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: apocalypse.org: majordom set sender to owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org using -f Received: from hkstandard.com (hkstd2.hkstandard.com [202.86.1.2]) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA13039 for ; Wed, 5 Jan 2000 10:06:24 -0500 Received: (from roland@localhost) by hkstandard.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) id XAA19395; Wed, 5 Jan 2000 23:10:13 +0800 (HKT) Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2000 23:10:12 +0800 (HKT) From: Roland Ng To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Subject: RE: HEX8: Re: Chess 64 Squares another form of Yin-Yang In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Using the method of throwing 3 coins 6 times is the most traditional, well-known, easiest and powerful. If you can chinese, you can go to http://uccic.com, it is Java demo of assigning earth element to the hexagrams. from Roland ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. From owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Wed Jan 5 10:35:22 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA14771 for hexagram-8-outgoing; Wed, 5 Jan 2000 10:35:22 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: apocalypse.org: majordom set sender to owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org using -f Received: from fireserv.cobank.com ([199.197.20.239]) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA14765 for ; Wed, 5 Jan 2000 10:35:21 -0500 Received: from svrdenexch.cobank (exchange [190.120.176.250]) by fireserv.cobank.com (8.8.8+Sun/8.8.6) with ESMTP id IAA04661 for ; Wed, 5 Jan 2000 08:43:49 -0700 (MST) Received: by SVRDENEXCH with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) id ; Wed, 5 Jan 2000 08:37:22 -0700 Message-ID: From: "Schmidt, Walter." To: "'hexagram-8@apocalypse.org'" Subject: HEX8: Yet another I Ching software program Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2000 08:37:14 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org For those who track such things, there is a shareware program for the Palm Pilot personal information manager called the "Digital Dragon I Ching." One "tosses" coins by tapping the screen with a stylus and a hexagram with moving lines is formed on the left side of the screen. The resultant hexagram is formed on the right side of the screen. Tapping above either hexagram gives a short judgement, based on the Wilhelm/Baynes translation. (I'm not sure if there are copyright issues.) Tapping on the moving lines gives the W/B reading for the line. It's very bare bone, like most things for the Palm Pilots, but does the job. ws ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. From owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Wed Jan 5 10:44:15 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA15297 for hexagram-8-outgoing; Wed, 5 Jan 2000 10:44:15 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: apocalypse.org: majordom set sender to owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org using -f Received: from nu-world.com (root@nu-world.com [206.58.141.2]) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA15292 for ; Wed, 5 Jan 2000 10:44:13 -0500 Received: from iname.com (dialup63.nu-world.com [206.58.141.131]) by nu-world.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA02350 for ; Wed, 5 Jan 2000 07:46:35 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <387366C7.C2A1E32B@iname.com> Date: Wed, 05 Jan 2000 07:44:07 -0800 From: wayne_rebecca X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Subject: Re: HEX8: Re: Chess 64 Squares another form of Yin-Yang References: <002401bf5787$3c1b8060$0200a8c0@jorge.newsite> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Jorge wrote: > > Hi all (I'm back after a long interregnum) > > Regarding the chess 'consulting method' I don't see how can it work because: > > 1) Randomness is a key factor in any use of the Yi as an oracle and a chess > game is not exactly random. Hi, It might be interesting to note that the "Golden Dawn" magical group has a history of using a variant of the chess game as an oracular device. The randomness is achieved by the players not focusing on the divination aspect, but on the question, and letting the "game" do what it will... see this url http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0875428959/qid%3D947087165/002-9182894-5985024 wayne -- Wayne & Rebecca Lowry Springfield, Oregon wayne_rebecca@iname.com http://www.excelir.com/cgi-bin/excelir.storefront/irhomesite/REBECCA ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. From owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Wed Jan 5 10:49:36 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA15656 for hexagram-8-outgoing; Wed, 5 Jan 2000 10:49:36 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: apocalypse.org: majordom set sender to owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org using -f Received: from hkstandard.com (hkstd2.hkstandard.com [202.86.1.2]) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA15649 for ; Wed, 5 Jan 2000 10:49:32 -0500 Received: (from roland@localhost) by hkstandard.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) id XAA19529; Wed, 5 Jan 2000 23:53:23 +0800 (HKT) Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2000 23:53:20 +0800 (HKT) From: Roland Ng To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Subject: Re: HEX8: Yet another I Ching software program In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org On Wed, 5 Jan 2000, Schmidt, Walter. wrote: > For those who track such things, there is a shareware program for the Palm > Pilot personal information manager called the "Digital Dragon I Ching." One > "tosses" coins by tapping the screen with a stylus and a hexagram with > moving lines is formed on the left side of the screen. The resultant > hexagram is formed on the right side of the screen. Tapping above either > hexagram gives a short judgement, based on the Wilhelm/Baynes translation. > (I'm not sure if there are copyright issues.) Tapping on the moving lines > gives the W/B reading for the line. But I think probably this software will not add earth element for each yin or yang. The judgement may not be useful since I think we cannot use mechanical methods to interpret hexagrams. Like Tarot, we need to have personal feeling about the Tarot and each person may have different personal feeling to each card. As a conclusiong, this means the software is just making yin and yang stroke. from Roland ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. From owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Wed Jan 5 11:02:23 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA16518 for hexagram-8-outgoing; Wed, 5 Jan 2000 11:02:23 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: apocalypse.org: majordom set sender to owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org using -f Received: from serveur.creaweb.fr (mail.creaweb.fr [194.98.233.61]) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA16514 for ; Wed, 5 Jan 2000 11:02:22 -0500 Received: from [194.98.233.165] by serveur.creaweb.fr (post.office MTA v2.0 0813 ID# 104-13810) with SMTP id AAC177 for ; Wed, 5 Jan 2000 17:04:27 +0000 Subject: Re: HEX8: The role of oral traditions in the Yi Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2000 17:05:04 +0000 x-sender: kirk@mail.creaweb.fr x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0v3, January 22, 1998 From: kirk@mcelhearn.com (Kirk Mcelhearn) To: "I Ching list" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Message-ID: <20000105170425519.AAC177@[194.98.233.165]> Sender: owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org On 5/01/00 12:13, jayem, jayem@seark.net, is reported to have said: >> The Master said: the holy sages set up the images in order to express >their >> thoughts completely; they devised the hexagrams in order to express the >> true and false completely. Then they appended judgements and so could >> express their words completely. >> This seems to me to indicate that the authors of the Yi consider it to be >> complete and self-contained. > >So the images came first, then the hexagrams, and lastly the judgements. >What are the images that the hexagrams are based on? No way!!!! The lines came first, then the heaxgrams, and judgments, and then the images, much later. Kirk vice | versa Translations from French to English, English to French Traductions francais-anglais, anglais-francais kirk@mcelhearn.com http://www.mcelhearn.com Kirk McElhearn | 91 rue de la Mesangerie | 37540 St Cyr sur Loire | France O=c=O O=c=O O=c=O O=c=O O=c=O O=c=O O=c=O O=c=O FOSSIL FUELS = HEAVY WEATHER O=c=O O=c=O O=c=O O=c=O O=c=O O=c=O O=c=O O=c=O ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. From owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Wed Jan 5 11:21:01 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA17557 for hexagram-8-outgoing; Wed, 5 Jan 2000 11:21:01 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: apocalypse.org: majordom set sender to owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org using -f Received: from serveur.creaweb.fr (mail.creaweb.fr [194.98.233.61]) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA17549 for ; Wed, 5 Jan 2000 11:20:59 -0500 Received: from [194.98.233.165] by serveur.creaweb.fr (post.office MTA v2.0 0813 ID# 104-13810) with SMTP id AAA178 for ; Wed, 5 Jan 2000 17:23:06 +0000 Subject: RE: HEX8: Re: Chess 64 Squares another form of Yin-Yang Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2000 17:23:40 +0000 x-sender: kirk@mail.creaweb.fr x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0v3, January 22, 1998 From: kirk@mcelhearn.com (Kirk Mcelhearn) To: "I Ching list" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Message-ID: <20000105172303767.AAA178@[194.98.233.165]> Sender: owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org On 5/01/00 15:10, Roland Ng, roland@hkstd2.hkstandard.com, is reported to have said: >Using the method of throwing 3 coins 6 times is the most traditional, >well-known, easiest and powerful. If you can chinese, you can go to >http://uccic.com, it is Java demo of assigning earth element to the >hexagrams. If you mean that most traditional is the oldest, you are wrong. Yarrow stalk divination is much older, and, of course, tortoise shell and other oracle bone divination predate that by a few millenia.... Kirk vice | versa Translations from French to English, English to French Traductions francais-anglais, anglais-francais kirk@mcelhearn.com http://www.mcelhearn.com Kirk McElhearn | 91 rue de la Mesangerie | 37540 St Cyr sur Loire | France O=c=O O=c=O O=c=O O=c=O O=c=O O=c=O O=c=O O=c=O FOSSIL FUELS = HEAVY WEATHER O=c=O O=c=O O=c=O O=c=O O=c=O O=c=O O=c=O O=c=O ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. From owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Wed Jan 5 11:59:21 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA19583 for hexagram-8-outgoing; Wed, 5 Jan 2000 11:59:21 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: apocalypse.org: majordom set sender to owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org using -f Received: from fireserv.cobank.com ([199.197.20.239]) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA19579 for ; Wed, 5 Jan 2000 11:59:19 -0500 Received: from svrdenexch.cobank (exchange [190.120.176.250]) by fireserv.cobank.com (8.8.8+Sun/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA06797 for ; Wed, 5 Jan 2000 10:07:47 -0700 (MST) Received: by SVRDENEXCH with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) id ; Wed, 5 Jan 2000 10:01:20 -0700 Message-ID: From: "Schmidt, Walter." To: "'hexagram-8@apocalypse.org'" Subject: RE: HEX8: Yet another I Ching software program Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2000 10:01:13 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Roland, you wrote: "I think probably this software will not add earth element for each yin or yang. The judgement may not be useful since I think we cannot use mechanical methods to interpret hexagrams. Like Tarot, we need to have personal feeling about the Tarot and each person may have different personal feeling to each card." I don't know what you mean by "adding the earth element" and "mechanical methods to interpret the hexagrams." First, I simply don't understand what "adding the earth element" means in this context. Second, the program doesn't use a mechanical means to interpret the hexagrams, it uses a (presumably) random method to generate the hexagrams and then shows the W/B material for the hexagrams generated. Interpretation is left to the reader, just like the book method we grew up with. With regard to personal feelings for the hexagrams, I certainly agree that people develop feelings for the different hexagrams, but unless one simply doesn't care for the procedure used, (stalks/coins/beads/chess games/software/license plates) the feeling for the hexagram generated shouldn't change. I really think in large part it is what procedures one develops a comfort level with. I have personally found generating hexagrams using the Palm Pilot to be something that resonates with me. I am also comfortable with some of the other on-line and CD ROM methods. Of course, not all are of good quality, but you find the same problem in I Ching books of varying quality. Or maybe I'm misunderstanding what you're getting at. ws > -----Original Message----- > From: Roland Ng [SMTP:roland@hkstd2.hkstandard.com] > Sent: Wednesday, January 05, 2000 9:53 AM > To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org > Subject: Re: HEX8: Yet another I Ching software program > > On Wed, 5 Jan 2000, Schmidt, Walter. wrote: > > For those who track such things, there is a shareware program for the > Palm > > Pilot personal information manager called the "Digital Dragon I Ching." > One > > "tosses" coins by tapping the screen with a stylus and a hexagram with > > moving lines is formed on the left side of the screen. The resultant > > hexagram is formed on the right side of the screen. Tapping above > either > > hexagram gives a short judgement, based on the Wilhelm/Baynes > translation. > > (I'm not sure if there are copyright issues.) Tapping on the moving > lines > > gives the W/B reading for the line. > But I think probably this software will not add earth element for each > yin or yang. The judgement may not be useful since I think we cannot use > mechanical methods to interpret hexagrams. Like Tarot, we need to have > personal feeling about the Tarot and each person may have different > personal feeling to each card. > > As a conclusiong, this means the software is just making yin and yang > stroke. > > from > Roland > > > ===== > To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org > from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. From owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Wed Jan 5 15:26:02 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA32681 for hexagram-8-outgoing; Wed, 5 Jan 2000 15:26:02 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: apocalypse.org: majordom set sender to owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org using -f Received: from smarthost.microsoft.com ([131.107.3.106]) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA32676 for ; Wed, 5 Jan 2000 15:26:01 -0500 Received: from A-RONHE5 ([157.55.233.248]) by smarthost.microsoft.com with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2650.21) id CJZQ3GJ5; Wed, 5 Jan 2000 12:27:55 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000105122725.007d4e10@apocalypse.org> X-Sender: rwhe@apocalypse.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Wed, 05 Jan 2000 12:27:25 -0800 To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org From: Ron Hale-Evans Subject: Re: HEX8: Yet another I Ching software program In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org At 08:37 AM 1/5/00 -0700, you wrote: >For those who track such things, there is a shareware program for the Palm >Pilot personal information manager called the "Digital Dragon I Ching." One >"tosses" coins by tapping the screen with a stylus and a hexagram with >moving lines is formed on the left side of the screen. The resultant >hexagram is formed on the right side of the screen. Tapping above either >hexagram gives a short judgement, based on the Wilhelm/Baynes translation. >(I'm not sure if there are copyright issues.) Tapping on the moving lines >gives the W/B reading for the line. > >It's very bare bone, like most things for the Palm Pilots, but does the job. >ws IMHO, it does *not* do the job. As an experiment, I cast about twenty sets of hexagrams. I would frequently get the same hexagrams several times in a row. Digital Dragon is not random or even pseudo-random. It does not use simulated coins or yarrow, but its own idiosyncratic method that yields very poor results. A month or two ago I wrote my own Palm I Ching program. It was pretty bare bones, but it did "do the job." However, it was too easy to use -- the I Ching "requested" that I not continue work on it. I have to agree, now that I have thought about it. Can you imagine an E-Z I Ching for the PalmPilot? People would be asking it whether they should cross the street... My "palm" (not Palm) I Ching is still three pennies and a copy of Wilhelm-Baynes. Ron -- Ron Hale-Evans: rwhe@apocalypse.org ... Center for Ludic Synergy: Kennexions GBG artgame: Hexagram-8 I Ching Mailing List: Positive Revolution FAQ: ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. From owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Wed Jan 5 15:30:00 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA00566 for hexagram-8-outgoing; Wed, 5 Jan 2000 15:30:00 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: apocalypse.org: majordom set sender to owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org using -f Received: from smarthost.microsoft.com ([131.107.3.106]) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA00555 for ; Wed, 5 Jan 2000 15:29:59 -0500 Received: from A-RONHE5 ([157.55.233.248]) by smarthost.microsoft.com with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2650.21) id CJZQ3GL9; Wed, 5 Jan 2000 12:31:53 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000105123126.009878f0@apocalypse.org> X-Sender: rwhe@apocalypse.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Wed, 05 Jan 2000 12:31:26 -0800 To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org From: Ron Hale-Evans Subject: RE: HEX8: Yet another I Ching software program In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org At 10:01 AM 1/5/00 -0700, you wrote: > Roland, you wrote: "I think probably this software will not add >earth element for each > yin or yang. The judgement may not be useful since I think we cannot >use > mechanical methods to interpret hexagrams. Like Tarot, we need to >have > personal feeling about the Tarot and each person may have different > personal feeling to each card." > >I don't know what you mean by "adding the earth element" and "mechanical >methods to interpret the hexagrams." > >First, I simply don't understand what "adding the earth element" means in >this context. I think Roland might mean that the casting procedure is not "grounded" in a peaceful, somber moment, the way even a coin casting can be, to say nothing of yarrow. If so, Roland, I agree. >Second, the program doesn't use a mechanical means to interpret the >hexagrams, it uses a (presumably) random method to generate the hexagrams >and then shows the W/B material for the hexagrams generated. It's not random; it's very, very far from random, as I mentioned in my last post. The same hexagrams, over and over again. Try it for yourself. Ron -- Ron Hale-Evans: rwhe@apocalypse.org ... Center for Ludic Synergy: Kennexions GBG artgame: Hexagram-8 I Ching Mailing List: Positive Revolution FAQ: ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. From owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Wed Jan 5 16:35:12 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA05802 for hexagram-8-outgoing; Wed, 5 Jan 2000 16:35:12 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: apocalypse.org: majordom set sender to owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org using -f Received: from fireserv.cobank.com ([199.197.20.239]) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA05798 for ; Wed, 5 Jan 2000 16:35:10 -0500 Received: from svrdenexch.cobank (exchange [190.120.176.250]) by fireserv.cobank.com (8.8.8+Sun/8.8.6) with ESMTP id OAA12955 for ; Wed, 5 Jan 2000 14:43:37 -0700 (MST) Received: by SVRDENEXCH with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) id ; Wed, 5 Jan 2000 14:37:09 -0700 Message-ID: From: "Schmidt, Walter." To: "'hexagram-8@apocalypse.org'" Subject: RE: HEX8: Yet another I Ching software program Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2000 14:37:01 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Ron, you wrote: It's not random; it's very, very far from random, as I mentioned in my last post. The same hexagrams, over and over again. Try it for yourself. Thanks for the post. I have been somewhat suspicious of the randomness as well, since I was getting more than the "normal" duplicative hexagrams. Rats. I kinda liked that little program. As to the other issue, I'm not convinced one can't have contemplative moments in front of a computer or Pilot screen. I'm sure that there were (and are) folks who believe(d) that moving from stalks to coins was a travesty because the time involved in the meditation was shortened so much and one's hands were touching metal that had been shaped by humans as opposed to vegetable matter grown "naturally. ws ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. From owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Wed Jan 5 17:36:44 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA10242 for hexagram-8-outgoing; Wed, 5 Jan 2000 17:36:44 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: apocalypse.org: majordom set sender to owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org using -f Received: from smarthost.microsoft.com ([131.107.3.106]) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA10238 for ; Wed, 5 Jan 2000 17:36:43 -0500 Received: from A-RONHE5 ([157.55.233.248]) by smarthost.microsoft.com with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2650.21) id CJZQ3MBX; Wed, 5 Jan 2000 14:38:38 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000105143810.0086f340@apocalypse.org> X-Sender: rwhe@apocalypse.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Wed, 05 Jan 2000 14:38:10 -0800 To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org From: Ron Hale-Evans Subject: RE: HEX8: Yet another I Ching software program In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org At 02:37 PM 1/5/00 -0700, you wrote: > Ron, you wrote: > It's not random; it's very, very far from random, as I mentioned in >my last > post. The same hexagrams, over and over again. Try it for yourself. > >Thanks for the post. I have been somewhat suspicious of the randomness as >well, since I was getting more than the "normal" duplicative hexagrams. >Rats. I kinda liked that little program. > >As to the other issue, I'm not convinced one can't have contemplative >moments in front of a computer or Pilot screen. I'm sure that there were >(and are) folks who believe(d) that moving from stalks to coins was a >travesty because the time involved in the meditation was shortened so much >and one's hands were touching metal that had been shaped by humans as >opposed to vegetable matter grown "naturally. ws Well, it seems as though one might be able to _force_ a contemplative moment -- one could require that the user wait 30 seconds for each line, then tap a button -- but if it only takes one tap of a button on screen to generate a hexagram, the user can easily generate two or three hexagram pairs a second, which is hardly conducive to contemplation, I think you'll agree. :-) We are like our ancestors in that we still do things on a human scale. It takes a while to generate a hexagram even with coins. I'm not afraid of computers (I did program the I Ching application), and I think you can have a fruitful I Ching encounter with a computer, because I have done so many times, but to have an I Ching in your pocket that you can take out on the spur of the moment and frivolously ask what you should have for dessert -- that's too much. That's disrespectful, and it will only hurt _you_. I say this only after consulting the I Ching on the matter; relying on my merely human wisdom was what made me hack up the application in the first place. If you like, I can find the reading I received and we can discuss it on-list. Happy 2000 to everyone, by the way! And, may I add, happy Mungday 3166 to my Discordian friends! Ron -- Ron Hale-Evans: rwhe@apocalypse.org ... Center for Ludic Synergy: Kennexions GBG artgame: Hexagram-8 I Ching Mailing List: Positive Revolution FAQ: ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. From owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Wed Jan 5 17:47:10 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA10947 for hexagram-8-outgoing; Wed, 5 Jan 2000 17:47:10 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: apocalypse.org: majordom set sender to owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org using -f Received: from smtp6.mindspring.com (smtp6.mindspring.com [207.69.200.110]) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA10943 for ; Wed, 5 Jan 2000 17:47:09 -0500 Received: from mindspring.com (user-2init1o.dialup.mindspring.com [165.121.116.56]) by smtp6.mindspring.com (8.9.3/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA19925 for ; Wed, 5 Jan 2000 17:49:32 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <3873AE4C.EFE7BAB@mindspring.com> Date: Wed, 05 Jan 2000 14:49:16 -0600 From: Ken Rose Organization: Cosmic Dragon LLC X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Subject: Re: HEX8: The role of oral traditions in the Yi References: <387154E0.1D56@crcom.net> <387148EF.13E2@crcom.net> <38715343.3ED333E4@pacbell.net> <3.0.2.32.20000105110651.00bc0620@mail.intertrader.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Hi Andreas, Happy New Year to you and to everyone on the list! I've been away for the holidays and am somewhat overwhelmed by the amount of traffic on the list in the past few weeks. I decided to reply to this post first since it's a question posed to me. I'm not sure I can add anything to the discussion about time and space since I don't know what time and space are. > > To pick up on a pre-holiday thread... > > In some messages last year Ken Rose said that there was an oral tradition > to the Yi and that without a knowledge of the information given by that > tradition, knowledge of the Yi was unavoidably partial. I believe that what I said earlier is that there is a dimension of the Chinese literary tradition which is not ever written down. This oral tradition can be divided into two categories: 1) orally transmitted teachings 2) the wordless teaching #2 clearly defies discussion, although, surprisingly one can approach it with words. We've got a book in preparation on this very subject. One important apsect of this dimension of traditional Chinese thinking is the requirement of personal cultivation. That is to say, one must not only study the teachings but engage in the process of personal cultivation and refinement of ideas and concepts before those ideas and concepts begin to take their individual shape and meaning. Thus the completion of meaning can never take place in the written text but only in the minds and lives of those who read and use them. This idea lies at the heart of the Confucian classic, Da Xue, often translated as The Great Learning (q.v.) I believe this is altogether pertinent to the question you've posed, since the "master" referred to in the quotation you cite is Confucius himself. Therefore the substance and implications of the Confucian context must be taken into consideration in order to glean the meaning of the passage. Beyond the Confucian context, there is the context of the Chinese written language itself. Classical, i.e. ancient Chinese, is a language deeply rooted in visualization, i.e. in the imagery of thought and ideas. A picture is not just worth a thousand words, it supplants those words. Therefore the process of transliterating pictures into words is a delicate and complex one. The earliest Chinese words are pictures of objects, depictions of dynamic relationships between objects, considerations about those relationships, and so on...all recorded by means of a set of abstract visual symbols. There is a lengthy discussion of this aspect of the Chinese language in the first chapter of our book, Who Can Ride the Dragon? So I'll leave it at that for now. It is my belief that this trait of Chinese has engendered a distinct way of looking at and thinking about the world over the past several thousand years. This in and of itself implies that there is something about all old Chinese texts that is either sub-textual or super-textual, depending upon how you look at it. This is especially relevant, I believe, when dealing with such ancient material in translation. > Given that I have no knowledge of these traditions I cannot comment upon > them directly; but, bearing that in mind, I'm interested in Ken's reaction > to the following passage in the Great Treatise: > > Chapter XII, verse 2. > > The Master said: writing cannot express words completely. Words cannot > express thoughts completely. > > Are we then unable to see the thoughts of the holy sages? > > The Master said: the holy sages set up the images in order to express their > thoughts completely; they devised the hexagrams in order to express the > true and false completely. Then they appended judgements and so could > express their words completely. > > This seems to me to indicate that the authors of the Yi consider it to be > complete and self-contained. Beyond what I've already said, I'd add that it is often the case with ancient Chinese materials that they contain such assertions of completeness. The Taiji classics, for example, contain lines which caution the reader that "if you do not study in this fashion then you will waste your time and sigh." However, without oral instruction, one has little hope of ever developing any sense at all of what "this fashion" is. This is not to say that the words are not "complete". I think we should also keep in mind that the Yi Jing is a heterodox tradition and not a homogenous, orthodox one. There are different versions, different interpretations, in short, different "completenesses" all existing under the moniker of the Yi Jing. Should we consider that the one that Wilhelm learned is the right one? Making other, by implication, wrong? This is the sort of sophistry that haunts Chinese scholarship throughout the ages. The practical aspect of the transmission of any text over thousands and thousands of years, particularly in a language in which the addition or deletion of a single stroke of the writing brush completely changes the meaning of a word, more or less obviates the notion of any text ever being considered "complete." Besides, if it were "complete" in some absolute sense, it would not permit such lively discussion all aimed at "completing" the understanding of it. Would it? My sense is that the text is best understood as a set of conceptual tools. Tools work (or they don't) depending upon our understanding of their design, intended use, and importantly upon our experience in using them. They also require continual updating to fit them to the job at hand. Here, I believe, we face one of the greatest challenges of studying the Yi Jing as well as other ancient Chinese traditions. Best, Ken ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. From owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Wed Jan 5 18:05:26 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA12655 for hexagram-8-outgoing; Wed, 5 Jan 2000 18:05:26 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: apocalypse.org: majordom set sender to owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org using -f Received: from smtp6.mindspring.com (smtp6.mindspring.com [207.69.200.110]) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA12650 for ; Wed, 5 Jan 2000 18:05:24 -0500 Received: from mindspring.com (user-2init1o.dialup.mindspring.com [165.121.116.56]) by smtp6.mindspring.com (8.9.3/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA00113 for ; Wed, 5 Jan 2000 18:07:49 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <3873B293.7EA088AF@mindspring.com> Date: Wed, 05 Jan 2000 15:07:31 -0600 From: Ken Rose Organization: Cosmic Dragon LLC X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Subject: Re: HEX8: The role of oral traditions in the Yi References: <387154E0.1D56@crcom.net><387148EF.13E2@crcom.net><38715343.3ED333E4@pacbell.net> <3.0.2.32.20000105110651.00bc0620@mail.intertrader.com> <000b01bf5776$519463a0$e02ed6cc@valuedcu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Hi Jay, Based upon your post and the one from Kirk, I'd say we're perilously close to falling into a translation hole. It seems we've got two definitions of "image" working at cross purposes. You asked what are the images on which the hexagrams are based. I believe the answer to that question is they are the primordial images of the three realms of existence, heaven, earth, and humankind, when they are viewed through the lens of yin and yang. This mathematical limit, i.e. two to the third power, provides the origin of the ba gua. The hexagrams develop from folding these eight primordial images into two-fold (i.e. second power) images: the sixty-four hexagrams. It seems to me that Kirk's remark regarding the later appearance of "the images" referes to that portion of the text of the Yi Jing (for example as it appears in the Wilhelm/Baynes translation) that is labeled "The Image". I may be wrong about this, but that's how it seems to me looking over the posts. Ken jayem wrote: > Hi Andreas, > > > The Master said: the holy sages set up the images in order to express > their > > thoughts completely; they devised the hexagrams in order to express the > > true and false completely. Then they appended judgements and so could > > express their words completely. > > This seems to me to indicate that the authors of the Yi consider it to be > > complete and self-contained. > > So the images came first, then the hexagrams, and lastly the judgements. > What are the images that the hexagrams are based on? > > Best to you too, > ~Jay~ > > ===== > To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org > from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. From owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Wed Jan 5 18:24:59 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA13832 for hexagram-8-outgoing; Wed, 5 Jan 2000 18:24:59 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: apocalypse.org: majordom set sender to owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org using -f Received: from fireserv.cobank.com ([199.197.20.239]) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA13828 for ; Wed, 5 Jan 2000 18:24:57 -0500 Received: from svrdenexch.cobank (exchange [190.120.176.250]) by fireserv.cobank.com (8.8.8+Sun/8.8.6) with ESMTP id QAA15497 for ; Wed, 5 Jan 2000 16:33:27 -0700 (MST) Received: by SVRDENEXCH with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) id ; Wed, 5 Jan 2000 16:27:00 -0700 Message-ID: From: "Schmidt, Walter." To: "'hexagram-8@apocalypse.org'" Subject: RE: HEX8: Yet another I Ching software program Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2000 16:26:53 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Ron, you wrote: "Well, it seems as though one might be able to _force_ a contemplative moment -- one could require that the user wait 30 seconds for each line, then tap a button -- but if it only takes one tap of a button on screen to generate a hexagram, the user can easily generate two or three hexagram pairs a second, which is hardly conducive to contemplation, I think you'll agree. :-)" Just for clarification, the program generates a line for each tap, but, of course, does so very quickly, so one could generate a reading in a matter of 2 seconds, hardly conducive to contemplation. On the other hand, in a totally unscientific experiment, I just generated a hexagram by tossing coins six times with one hand while notating the results with the other, in 24 seconds. Not exactly contemplative either. It's not a matter of "forcing" oneself to be contemplative, it's choosing whether or not to be. I've used the stalks at time when I was distracted and the results reflected it: no doubt that you get what you put into it. And I agree that the purpose in any case is not to have a computer to take out of your pocket and ask what to have for dessert. If I implied anything like that, I didn't mean to. I do like the idea, however, of a casual visit to the I Ching, not necessarily associated with asking a question, that one can do when one finds oneself with an unexpected quiet moment in the middle of a busy day. Something similar, I guess, to how another person might read a verse from the Bible or the Koran at random. It brings a moment of comfort or resonance as a reminder of part of one's world view. And since I grew up on the W/B translation, I liked the idea of the Palm Pilot version using that, even if in a very abbreviated version. Especially since I have the Pilot with me all the time and I don't carry around a copy of the I Ching. Gosh, I've lurked here for nearly two years and I've send more messages in the last two days than in all the previous time put together. Must be millennial. ws ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. From owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Wed Jan 5 20:44:32 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id UAA20631 for hexagram-8-outgoing; Wed, 5 Jan 2000 20:44:32 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: apocalypse.org: majordom set sender to owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org using -f Received: from imo-d08.mx.aol.com (imo-d08.mx.aol.com [205.188.157.40]) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA20626 for ; Wed, 5 Jan 2000 20:44:31 -0500 From: RCol547987@aol.com Received: from RCol547987@aol.com by imo-d08.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v24.6.) id h.b.b1f0b0e (4189) for ; Wed, 5 Jan 2000 20:46:24 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2000 20:46:23 EST Subject: Re: HEX8: The role of oral traditions in the Yi To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL for Macintosh sub 146 Sender: owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org In a message dated 1/5/00 5:49:52 PM, yulong@mindspring.com writes: << I think we should also keep in mind that the Yi Jing is a heterodox tradition and not a homogenous, orthodox one. There are different versions, different interpretations, in short, different "completenesses" all existing under the moniker of the Yi Jing. Should we consider that the one that Wilhelm learned is the right one? Making other, by implication, wrong? >> Hi Ken. Thank you for this clear, and balanced opinion. I am enjoying you posts emensely! I believe that this statement is not just limited to the Yi but can be applied to al aspects of thought -- I don't any two people see anything exactly the same way as we are all unique. The best we can do is give our own interpretations (definitions) of the ten thousand things and have "yi" for others' opinions. There is no right way or wrong way, only your way an the others' way. I feel this is a valuable and valid point and can end so much needless squabbling. On a differnt topic -- but somewhat related to language and the Yi jing: My friend and colleague Stephen Selby who is a research writer/attorney in Hong Kong recently wrote a book titled Chinese Archery (Hong Kong University Press (ISBN 962 209 501 1). In the book there are many references to the Yi and archery as it relates to battle strategies via divination. If you have time, please check it out. In peace, Roy (still weak from recent surgery.) ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. From owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Wed Jan 5 20:50:40 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id UAA20893 for hexagram-8-outgoing; Wed, 5 Jan 2000 20:50:40 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: apocalypse.org: majordom set sender to owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org using -f Received: from hkstandard.com (hkstd2.hkstandard.com [202.86.1.2]) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA20887 for ; Wed, 5 Jan 2000 20:50:37 -0500 Received: (from roland@localhost) by hkstandard.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) id JAA19928; Thu, 6 Jan 2000 09:54:27 +0800 (HKT) Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2000 09:54:26 +0800 (HKT) From: Roland Ng To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Subject: RE: HEX8: Yet another I Ching software program In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org On Wed, 5 Jan 2000, Schmidt, Walter. wrote: > First, I simply don't understand what "adding the earth element" means in > this context. For predicting using I Ching, we can add earth elements and family elements to each yin and yang and make further explanation. Usually non-chinese will not know this up to now, I cannot see any non-chinese books saying about that. You can treat it as another alternative of I-Ching prediction. > Second, the program doesn't use a mechanical means to interpret the > hexagrams, it uses a (presumably) random method to generate the hexagrams > and then shows the W/B material for the hexagrams generated. Interpretation > is left to the reader, just like the book method we grew up with. It has not described in the first email description of the program that it will generate the hexagram randomly. So, I miss that point. from Roland ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. From owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Wed Jan 5 20:56:01 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id UAA21174 for hexagram-8-outgoing; Wed, 5 Jan 2000 20:56:01 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: apocalypse.org: majordom set sender to owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org using -f Received: from hkstandard.com (hkstd2.hkstandard.com [202.86.1.2]) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA21163 for ; Wed, 5 Jan 2000 20:55:57 -0500 Received: (from roland@localhost) by hkstandard.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) id JAA19934; Thu, 6 Jan 2000 09:59:52 +0800 (HKT) Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2000 09:59:51 +0800 (HKT) From: Roland Ng To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Subject: RE: HEX8: Yet another I Ching software program In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20000105123126.009878f0@apocalypse.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org On Wed, 5 Jan 2000, Ron Hale-Evans wrote: > I think Roland might mean that the casting procedure is not "grounded" in a > peaceful, somber moment, the way even a coin casting can be, to say nothing > of yarrow. If so, Roland, I agree. I have no comments on computer-generated randomness on prediction. My profession is computer or you call Information Technology. Personally I do not trust the randomness of computer because of the following reasons. 1. Computer cannot generate pure randomness. 2. What random means your subconscious is controlling the result. If you are tossing coins, it can be believed that your subconscious may be able to control the result but it is hard to believe that one's subconscious can control the electric current inside the computer and control the random generator inside the computer. from Roland ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. From owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Wed Jan 5 21:03:06 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id VAA21420 for hexagram-8-outgoing; Wed, 5 Jan 2000 21:03:06 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: apocalypse.org: majordom set sender to owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org using -f Received: from hkstandard.com (hkstd2.hkstandard.com [202.86.1.2]) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA21415 for ; Wed, 5 Jan 2000 21:03:00 -0500 Received: (from roland@localhost) by hkstandard.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) id KAA19945; Thu, 6 Jan 2000 10:06:55 +0800 (HKT) Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2000 10:06:54 +0800 (HKT) From: Roland Ng To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Subject: RE: HEX8: Yet another I Ching software program In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org With regard to my last email and based on the 1st and 2nd point, I would rather design the I Ching program in this way. Make 3 buttons to represent three coins. Use computer randomness the generate the initial state of whether head or tail for these 3 buttons and the user can also see it. Then, you can click the buttons. After clicking, another picture besides head or tail will be showing. You can continue clicking the 3 buttons using your randomness. The computer will flip the coin internally for each click you perform. After clicking some time, you believe you have finished, you can then press another button to reveal the actual head and tail. Of course do that for 6 times and the hexagram is generated. I have used that to predict things and have good results. from Roland ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. From owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Wed Jan 5 23:48:32 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA29154 for hexagram-8-outgoing; Wed, 5 Jan 2000 23:48:32 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: apocalypse.org: majordom set sender to owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org using -f Received: from smtp7.atl.mindspring.net (smtp7.atl.mindspring.net [207.69.128.51]) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA29150 for ; Wed, 5 Jan 2000 23:48:31 -0500 Received: from mindspring.com (user-38ldmn6.dialup.mindspring.com [209.86.218.230]) by smtp7.atl.mindspring.net (8.9.3/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA14435 for ; Wed, 5 Jan 2000 23:50:57 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <3874031B.2FC8559E@mindspring.com> Date: Wed, 05 Jan 2000 20:51:08 -0600 From: Ken Rose Organization: Cosmic Dragon LLC X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Subject: Re: HEX8: The role of oral traditions in the Yi References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Hi Roy, It is truly my pleasure to participate in these discussions. I believe they are an important aspect to the study of the Yi Jing and related traditions. We are fortunate to have such the facility to meet and exchange ideas. Nor am I trying to end any squabbling. I like squabbling and I find squabbling helps scare up both the strong and the weak points in my thinking. I will certainly look for your friend's book. Thanks for mentioning it. Hope your recovery is swift and thorough! Ken RCol547987@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 1/5/00 5:49:52 PM, yulong@mindspring.com writes: > > << I think we should also keep in mind that the Yi Jing is a heterodox > tradition > and not a homogenous, orthodox one. There are different versions, different > interpretations, in short, different "completenesses" all existing under the > moniker of the Yi Jing. Should we consider that the one that Wilhelm learned > is the right one? Making other, by implication, wrong? >> > > Hi Ken. Thank you for this clear, and balanced opinion. I am enjoying you > posts emensely! I believe that this statement is not just limited to the > Yi but can be applied to al aspects of thought -- I don't any two people see > anything exactly the same way as we are all unique. The best we can do is > give > our own interpretations (definitions) of the ten thousand things and have > "yi" for others' opinions. There is no right way or wrong way, only your > way an the others' way. I feel this is a valuable and valid point and can end > so much needless squabbling. > > On a differnt topic -- but somewhat related to language and the Yi jing: My > friend and colleague Stephen Selby who is a research writer/attorney in > Hong Kong recently wrote a book titled Chinese Archery (Hong Kong University > Press (ISBN 962 209 501 1). In the book there are many references to the > Yi and archery as it relates to battle strategies via divination. If you have > time, please check it out. In peace, Roy (still weak from recent surgery.) > > ===== > To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org > from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. From owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Thu Jan 6 04:37:39 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id EAA03840 for hexagram-8-outgoing; Thu, 6 Jan 2000 04:37:39 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: apocalypse.org: majordom set sender to owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org using -f Received: from serveur.creaweb.fr (mail.creaweb.fr [194.98.233.61]) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id EAA03836 for ; Thu, 6 Jan 2000 04:37:37 -0500 Received: from [194.98.233.133] by serveur.creaweb.fr (post.office MTA v2.0 0813 ID# 104-13810) with SMTP id AAA184 for ; Thu, 6 Jan 2000 10:40:03 +0000 Subject: Re: HEX8: The role of oral traditions in the Yi Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2000 10:40:26 +0000 x-sender: kirk@mail.creaweb.fr x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0v3, January 22, 1998 From: kirk@mcelhearn.com (Kirk Mcelhearn) To: "I Ching list" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Message-ID: <20000106104002663.AAA184@[194.98.233.133]> Sender: owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org On 5/01/00 21:07, Ken Rose, yulong@mindspring.com, is reported to have said: >It seems to me that Kirk's remark regarding the later appearance of >"the images" referes to that portion of the text of the Yi Jing (for example >as it appears in the Wilhelm/Baynes translation) that is labeled "The Image". Yes, that's what I meant, but that is what I understood from Jay's comment. Kirk vice | versa Translations from French to English, English to French Traductions francais-anglais, anglais-francais kirk@mcelhearn.com http://www.mcelhearn.com Kirk McElhearn | 91 rue de la Mesangerie | 37540 St Cyr sur Loire | France O=c=O O=c=O O=c=O O=c=O O=c=O O=c=O O=c=O O=c=O FOSSIL FUELS = HEAVY WEATHER O=c=O O=c=O O=c=O O=c=O O=c=O O=c=O O=c=O O=c=O ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. From owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Thu Jan 6 05:45:48 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id FAA04846 for hexagram-8-outgoing; Thu, 6 Jan 2000 05:45:48 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: apocalypse.org: majordom set sender to owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org using -f Received: from turing.intertrader.com (IDENT:exim@[195.89.144.173]) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id FAA04842 for ; Thu, 6 Jan 2000 05:45:47 -0500 Received: from budvar.inside.intertrader.com ([10.0.0.6] helo=budvar) by turing.intertrader.com with smtp (Exim 3.02 #1) id 126AK6-0007Um-00; Thu, 06 Jan 2000 10:39:18 +0000 Message-Id: <3.0.2.32.20000106105200.00a8c2d0@mail.intertrader.com> X-Sender: andreas@mail.intertrader.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.2 (32) Date: Thu, 06 Jan 2000 10:52:00 +0000 To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org, From: Andreas Schoter Subject: Re: HEX8: The role of oral traditions in the Yi In-Reply-To: <000b01bf5776$519463a0$e02ed6cc@valuedcu> References: <387154E0.1D56@crcom.net> <387148EF.13E2@crcom.net> <38715343.3ED333E4@pacbell.net> <3.0.2.32.20000105110651.00bc0620@mail.intertrader.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by apocalypse.org id FAA04843 Sender: owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org At 06:13 05/01/00 -0600, jayem wrote: >> The Master said: the holy sages set up the images in order to express >their >> thoughts completely; they devised the hexagrams in order to express the >> true and false completely. Then they appended judgements and so could >> express their words completely. >> This seems to me to indicate that the authors of the Yi consider it to be >> complete and self-contained. > >So the images came first, then the hexagrams, and lastly the judgements. >What are the images that the hexagrams are based on? To answer Jayem's question and hopefully clear up some confusion. In addition to the usage of the term "image" as the name of part of the hexagram texts (i.e. in connection with the judgement and line texts), we also find in Wilhelm's version of the Ta Chuan that the phrase "image" seems sometimes to be used to mean bigram, sometimes trigram but also, more importantly, it has a more general sense. Thus we have: Chpt XII v5 The holy sages were able to survey all the confused diversities under heaven. They observed forms and phenomena, made representations of things and their attributes. These were called the Images. Thus I take "images" in the context being discussed here to refer to what I would call an abstract notion of a situation. Actually, Kirk's paper "The Key to the Yijing" has a very good