From owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Sun Mar 5 17:31:46 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA05674 for hexagram-8-outgoing; Sun, 5 Mar 2000 17:31:46 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: apocalypse.org: majordom set sender to owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org using -f Received: from sand6.global.net.uk (sand6.global.net.uk [195.147.246.105]) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA05663 for ; Sun, 5 Mar 2000 17:31:28 -0500 Received: from pebs04a03.client.global.net.uk ([195.147.164.236]) by sand6.global.net.uk with smtp (Exim 3.03 #1) id 12Rjaa-00037A-00 for hexagram-8@apocalypse.org; Sun, 05 Mar 2000 22:33:28 +0000 From: Ian Greely To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Subject: HEX8: Off topic. Mailing lists... Date: Sun, 05 Mar 2000 23:08:43 +0000 Message-ID: References: <20000216.164855.-495761.0.syrnest@juno.com> <3.0.3.32.20000216205204.007ade90@express-news.net> <3.0.2.32.20000228140731.00bc9100@mail.intertrader.com> In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.20000228140731.00bc9100@mail.intertrader.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.7/32.534 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by apocalypse.org id RAA05670 Sender: owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Sorry to post this to the list. Someone mentioned in a post to the list a site on the net which will run a mailing list. Alas due to yet another crash I no longer have that e-mail and find myself currently wanting to run a small mailing list. Anyone remember the name of the site? regards, Ian ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. From owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Sun Mar 5 18:09:35 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA07030 for hexagram-8-outgoing; Sun, 5 Mar 2000 18:09:35 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: apocalypse.org: majordom set sender to owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org using -f Received: from mta1.snfc21.pbi.net (mta1.snfc21.pbi.net [206.13.28.122]) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA07026 for ; Sun, 5 Mar 2000 18:09:34 -0500 Received: from pacbell.net ([206.170.170.157]) by mta1.snfc21.pbi.net (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.1999.09.16.21.57.p8) with ESMTP id <0FQZ004C61MNU3@mta1.snfc21.pbi.net> for hexagram-8@apocalypse.org; Sun, 5 Mar 2000 15:08:48 -0800 (PST) Date: Sun, 05 Mar 2000 14:07:42 -0800 From: Ray Langley Subject: Re: HEX8: Off topic. Mailing lists... To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Message-id: <38C2DAAE.B37028B4@pacbell.net> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en] (Win98; U) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Accept-Language: en References: <20000216.164855.-495761.0.syrnest@juno.com> <3.0.3.32.20000216205204.007ade90@express-news.net> <3.0.2.32.20000228140731.00bc9100@mail.intertrader.com> Sender: owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org > Sorry to post this to the list. Someone mentioned in a post to the > list a site on the net which will run a mailing list. Alas due to yet > another crash I no longer have that e-mail and find myself currently > wanting to run a small mailing list. > > Anyone remember the name of the site? > > regards, > Ian Hi Ian. Onelist/eGroups hosts thousands of mailing lists. I have one on chineseastrology, ChineseFengShui, and IChing_Yijing. http://www.onelist.com/ -- Warmest Regards, Ray Have Luo Pan, Will Travel! ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. From owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Sun Mar 5 18:17:48 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA07540 for hexagram-8-outgoing; Sun, 5 Mar 2000 18:17:48 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: apocalypse.org: majordom set sender to owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org using -f Received: from smtp8.gateway.net (relayd.gateway.net [208.230.117.252]) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA07535 for ; Sun, 5 Mar 2000 18:17:47 -0500 Received: from oemcomputer (1Cust32.tnt4.bwi1.da.uu.net [63.16.157.32]) by smtp8.gateway.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id SAA23428 for ; Sun, 5 Mar 2000 18:17:36 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <001501bf86f9$db2cfac0$209d103f@oemcomputer> From: "pattique" To: References: <20000216.164855.-495761.0.syrnest@juno.com> <3.0.3.32.20000216205204.007ade90@express-news.net> <3.0.2.32.20000228140731.00bc9100@mail.intertrader.com> Subject: Re: HEX8: Off topic. Mailing lists... Date: Sun, 5 Mar 2000 18:23:35 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Sender: owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org You can try www.topica.com, I believe they have what you are looking for. Sincerely Pat Q ----- Original Message ----- From: Ian Greely To: Sent: Sunday, March 05, 2000 6:08 PM Subject: HEX8: Off topic. Mailing lists... > Sorry to post this to the list. Someone mentioned in a post to the > list a site on the net which will run a mailing list. Alas due to yet > another crash I no longer have that e-mail and find myself currently > wanting to run a small mailing list. > > Anyone remember the name of the site? > > regards, > Ian > > > ===== > To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org > from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. > ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. From owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Mon Mar 13 00:35:23 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA16597 for hexagram-8-outgoing; Mon, 13 Mar 2000 00:35:23 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: apocalypse.org: majordom set sender to owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org using -f Received: from web1603.mail.yahoo.com (web1603.mail.yahoo.com [128.11.23.203]) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id AAA16593 for ; Mon, 13 Mar 2000 00:35:22 -0500 Received: (qmail 27443 invoked by uid 60001); 13 Mar 2000 05:35:43 -0000 Message-ID: <20000313053543.27442.qmail@web1603.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [209.240.216.86] by web1603.mail.yahoo.com; Sun, 12 Mar 2000 21:35:43 PST Date: Sun, 12 Mar 2000 21:35:43 -0800 (PST) From: diane haldane Subject: HEX8: hi and i ching's personality To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org hi ron, thanks for letting me join in, and hello everybody. i am looking forward to talking to others about their knowledge and experiences with the i ching. i keep going back to it, but i find i keep having a "personality clash" with all the interpretations i have found, or maybe i am having a clash with the i ching itself which seems to have its own personality. anyone else sense that, that it has a personality, or is that a personal quirk of mine? i keep coming back to it, though, so i am drawn. any recommendations on translations that anyone prefers? looking forward to more discussion. diane __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. From owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Mon Mar 13 02:54:33 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id CAA26064 for hexagram-8-outgoing; Mon, 13 Mar 2000 02:54:33 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: apocalypse.org: majordom set sender to owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org using -f Received: from sttlpop5.sttl.uswest.net (sttlpop5.sttl.uswest.net [206.81.192.5]) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id CAA26060 for ; Mon, 13 Mar 2000 02:54:32 -0500 Received: (qmail 12243 invoked by alias); 13 Mar 2000 07:54:58 -0000 Delivered-To: fixup-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org@fixme Received: (qmail 12220 invoked by uid 0); 13 Mar 2000 07:54:57 -0000 Received: from vdsl219.sttl.uswest.net (HELO talula) (216.160.108.219) by sttlpop5.sttl.uswest.net with SMTP; 13 Mar 2000 07:54:57 -0000 Message-ID: <001301bf8cc2$7fb0cae0$0200000a@talula> From: "K" To: References: <20000313053543.27442.qmail@web1603.mail.yahoo.com> Subject: HEX8: Re: hi and i ching's personality Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2000 00:02:37 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Sender: owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Yes thank you Ron. Hello everyone. I have also found some translations to 'clash' with me as you have described. I think this is due primarily to the translator. Although if you really can't handle it, it may indeed signal a weakness of yours. The most friendly translation I have yet found is by Brian Browne Walker. If there is a friendlier translation, I would like to know about it! ----- Original Message ----- From: "diane haldane" To: Sent: Sunday, March 12, 2000 9:35 PM Subject: HEX8: hi and i ching's personality > > hi ron, thanks for letting me join in, and > hello everybody. > i am looking forward to talking to others > about their knowledge and experiences with > the i ching. > i keep going back to it, but i find i keep > having a "personality clash" with all the > interpretations i have found, or maybe > i am having a clash with the i ching itself > which seems to have its own personality. > anyone else sense that, that it has a personality, or is that a personal quirk of mine? i keep > coming back to it, though, so i am drawn. any recommendations on translations that anyone prefers? > looking forward to more discussion. diane ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. From owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Mon Mar 13 03:03:24 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id DAA26779 for hexagram-8-outgoing; Mon, 13 Mar 2000 03:03:24 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: apocalypse.org: majordom set sender to owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org using -f Received: from tantalum.btinternet.com (tantalum.btinternet.com [194.73.73.80]) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id DAA26775 for ; Mon, 13 Mar 2000 03:03:23 -0500 Received: from [62.6.64.26] (helo=host62-6-64-26.btinternet.com) by tantalum.btinternet.com with smtp (Exim 2.05 #1) id 12UPhq-0004EI-00 for hexagram-8@apocalypse.org; Mon, 13 Mar 2000 07:56:02 +0000 From: Ian J Greely To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Subject: Re: HEX8: Re: hi and i ching's personality Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2000 08:07:26 +0000 Message-ID: References: <20000313053543.27442.qmail@web1603.mail.yahoo.com> <001301bf8cc2$7fb0cae0$0200000a@talula> In-Reply-To: <001301bf8cc2$7fb0cae0$0200000a@talula> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.7/32.534 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by apocalypse.org id DAA26776 Sender: owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Hmm, Yes I've found the damn thing irritating and intractable at times. Or is that me? *frown* As to more friendly translations the translation used by Talis for thier talis I-Ching program (www.resonate.org) seems to be rather "PC" if you will. Personaly I prefer the more blunt translations of the I Ching that I've found. regards, Ian On Mon, 13 Mar 2000 00:02:37 -0800, you wrote: >Yes thank you Ron. Hello everyone. > >I have also found some translations to 'clash' with me as you have >described. I think this is due primarily to the translator. Although if you >really can't handle it, it may indeed signal a weakness of yours. > >The most friendly translation I have yet found is by Brian Browne Walker. If >there is a friendlier translation, I would like to know about it! > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "diane haldane" >To: >Sent: Sunday, March 12, 2000 9:35 PM >Subject: HEX8: hi and i ching's personality > > >> >> hi ron, thanks for letting me join in, and >> hello everybody. >> i am looking forward to talking to others >> about their knowledge and experiences with >> the i ching. >> i keep going back to it, but i find i keep >> having a "personality clash" with all the >> interpretations i have found, or maybe >> i am having a clash with the i ching itself >> which seems to have its own personality. >> anyone else sense that, that it has a personality, or is that a personal >quirk of mine? i keep >> coming back to it, though, so i am drawn. any recommendations on >translations that anyone prefers? >> looking forward to more discussion. diane > > > > >===== >To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org >from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. From owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Mon Mar 13 06:45:23 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id GAA31671 for hexagram-8-outgoing; Mon, 13 Mar 2000 06:45:23 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: apocalypse.org: majordom set sender to owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org using -f Received: from imo22.mx.aol.com (imo22.mx.aol.com [152.163.225.66]) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id GAA31667 for ; Mon, 13 Mar 2000 06:45:22 -0500 From: Autorbis@aol.com Received: from Autorbis@aol.com by imo22.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v25.3.) id h.6b.2580a1b (4009) for ; Mon, 13 Mar 2000 06:45:44 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <6b.2580a1b.25fe2ee7@aol.com> Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2000 06:45:43 EST Subject: HEX8: I-Ching-pages To: Hexagram-8@apocalypse.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0.i for Windows sub 85 Sender: owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Hi all, I'm on the way to create my own homepage and wish to include a page with the best links to I-Ching-pages or best sources of information about chinese history and literature. Does anybody knows or has opinions about the "MUSTs" in this field? Thanks Lothar ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. From owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Mon Mar 13 07:52:25 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id HAA01872 for hexagram-8-outgoing; Mon, 13 Mar 2000 07:52:25 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: apocalypse.org: majordom set sender to owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org using -f Received: from web1601.mail.yahoo.com (web1601.mail.yahoo.com [128.11.23.201]) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id HAA01868 for ; Mon, 13 Mar 2000 07:52:24 -0500 Received: (qmail 27101 invoked by uid 60001); 13 Mar 2000 12:52:48 -0000 Message-ID: <20000313125248.27100.qmail@web1601.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [209.240.216.64] by web1601.mail.yahoo.com; Mon, 13 Mar 2000 04:52:48 PST Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2000 04:52:48 -0800 (PST) From: diane haldane Subject: Re: HEX8: Re: hi and i ching's personality To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org hi k, thanks for your recommendation. could you elaborate on what you mean by my "clash" with the i ching being a weakness of mine? you've piqued my curiousity! thanks, diane ~~~~~~~ --- K wrote: > I have also found some translations to 'clash' with me as you have > described. I think this is due primarily to the translator. Although if you > really can't handle it, it may indeed signal a weakness of yours. > > The most friendly translation I have yet found is by Brian Browne Walker. If > there is a friendlier translation, I would like to know about it! > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "diane haldane" > > i keep going back to it, but i find i keep > > having a "personality clash" with all the > > interpretations i have found, or maybe > > i am having a clash with the i ching itself > > which seems to have its own personality. > > anyone else sense that, that it has a personality, or is that a personal > quirk of mine? __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. From owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Mon Mar 13 08:28:27 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA03600 for hexagram-8-outgoing; Mon, 13 Mar 2000 08:28:27 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: apocalypse.org: majordom set sender to owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org using -f Received: from barra.domain.com.br (barra.domain.com.br [200.196.128.5]) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA03596 for ; Mon, 13 Mar 2000 08:28:25 -0500 Received: from pentium-133 (200.188.61.31) by barra.domain.com.br (NPlex 4.5.042) id 38BFCE1A000865B1 for hexagram-8@apocalypse.org; Mon, 13 Mar 2000 10:31:30 -0300 Message-ID: <000601bf8cf0$21100180$1f3dbcc8@pentium-133> From: "Ely Britto" To: Subject: Re: HEX8: Re: hi and i ching's personality Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2000 10:28:10 -0300 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org ->hi k, thanks for your recommendation. could >you elaborate on what you mean by my "clash" >with the i ching being a weakness of mine? >you've piqued my curiousity! thanks, diane Hi Daine, I am an old member of this list, my name is Ely, (and i am a woman). I am from Brazil, I am a writer, I Ching's teacher and Instructor of Chinese Inner Alchemy. I've been teaching people for mre then 15 years. My experience about what you are feeling is that this is a normal phase of the study of the I Ching. The crash of the personality must happens so you can build up a new way to see reality, life and changes. Unless you will use the I Ching like a dead tool to just to add more concepts to yours already full mind, this crash is the most healthy thing that could happens to you and it is very good. Just take the example of a house, you have al old house and if you want to rebuild it many things must be firstly crashed. In the I Ching this "crash and rebuilding" is well represented in the meaning of the two hexagrams, 23 and 24. This is a law of change and never weakness. If you want to look at it thinking it is weakness, I would say that weakness is the Yin part of nature, the one we do not want to feel but at the same time the only one that can freed us from the domain of concepts, intellect and common mind. The pure mind that will give you a pure perception and new perspective of the world can only be installed by the "crash"of the old patterns that have being guiding your life do far. No probelm with translations, trey to understand the structure of the book, the combination of the Yin and yang lines and what make them move to another situation and you will be able to *read* the lines and do your own perception fo the laws acting in nature and your life. I am finishing the translation of my homepage to English language, you can take a look at the graphics and meditate upon them. www.healing-tao.com.br Try to find a xerox copy of Steve Moore book "The Trigrams of Han" or a very cute and ease illustrated book named "The I Ching - an illustraded guide of the Chinese Art of Divination" and you will be able to learn the structure of the I Ching. Think about the lines and its combination, study them using more your own inner feeling then your mind and you will be able to "feel" the structure acting in all the thousands things around you and in the hexagrams. You are in the right path, don't fear, let it go, don't listen to critics about your own perception of lofe, just keep in touch with the movements of change, in everything that moves and do not moves around you. learn about changes not about books. You will find out soon, what this incredible book is talking about. Be welcome and be brave Ely Britto www.healing-tao.com.br >~~~~~~~ >--- K wrote: >> I have also found some translations to 'clash' with me as you have >> described. I think this is due primarily to the translator. Although if you >> really can't handle it, it may indeed signal a weakness of yours. >> >> The most friendly translation I have yet found is by Brian Browne Walker. If >> there is a friendlier translation, I would like to know about it! >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "diane haldane" >> > i keep going back to it, but i find i keep >> > having a "personality clash" with all the >> > interpretations i have found, or maybe >> > i am having a clash with the i ching itself >> > which seems to have its own personality. >> > anyone else sense that, that it has a personality, or is that a personal >> quirk of mine? >__________________________________________________ >Do You Yahoo!? >Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. >http://im.yahoo.com > > >===== >To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org >from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. From owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Mon Mar 13 08:29:51 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA03666 for hexagram-8-outgoing; Mon, 13 Mar 2000 08:29:51 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: apocalypse.org: majordom set sender to owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org using -f Received: from barra.domain.com.br (barra.domain.com.br [200.196.128.5]) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA03661 for ; Mon, 13 Mar 2000 08:29:49 -0500 Received: from pentium-133 (200.188.61.31) by barra.domain.com.br (NPlex 4.5.042) id 38BFCE1A00086647 for hexagram-8@apocalypse.org; Mon, 13 Mar 2000 10:32:58 -0300 Message-ID: <000901bf8cf0$55a3c8a0$1f3dbcc8@pentium-133> From: "Ely Britto" To: Subject: Re: HEX8: Re: hi and i ching's personality Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2000 10:30:32 -0300 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org ->hi k, thanks for your recommendation. could >you elaborate on what you mean by my "clash" >with the i ching being a weakness of mine? >you've piqued my curiousity! thanks, diane Hi Daine, I am an old member of this list, my name is Ely, (and i am a woman). I am from Brazil, I am a writer, I Ching's teacher and Instructor of Chinese Inner Alchemy. I've been teaching people for mre then 15 years. My experience about what you are feeling is that this is a normal phase of the study of the I Ching. The crash of the personality must happens so you can build up a new way to see reality, life and changes. Unless you will use the I Ching like a dead tool to just to add more concepts to yours already full mind, this crash is the most healthy thing that could happens to you and it is very good. Personality os not your real being, the world persona from where this world cames means "mask". It is that mask that is *crashing*. Just take the example of a house, you have al old house and if you want to rebuild it many things must be firstly crashed. In the I Ching this "crash and rebuilding" is well represented in the meaning of the two hexagrams, 23 and 24. This is a law of change and never weakness. If you want to look at it thinking it is weakness, I would say that weakness is the Yin part of nature, the one we do not want to feel but at the same time the only one that can freed us from the domain of concepts, intellect and common mind. The pure mind that will give you a pure perception and new perspective of the world can only be installed by the "crash"of the old patterns that have being guiding your life do far. No probelm with translations, trey to understand the structure of the book, the combination of the Yin and yang lines and what make them move to another situation and you will be able to *read* the lines and do your own perception fo the laws acting in nature and your life. I am finishing the translation of my homepage to English language, you can take a look at the graphics and meditate upon them. www.healing-tao.com.br Try to find a xerox copy of Steve Moore book "The Trigrams of Han" or a very cute and ease illustrated book named "The I Ching - an illustraded guide of the Chinese Art of Divination" and you will be able to learn the structure of the I Ching. Think about the lines and its combination, study them using more your own inner feeling then your mind and you will be able to "feel" the structure acting in all the thousands things around you and in the hexagrams. You are in the right path, don't fear, let it go, don't listen to critics about your own perception of lofe, just keep in touch with the movements of change, in everything that moves and do not moves around you. learn about changes not about books. You will find out soon, what this incredible book is talking about. Be welcome and be brave Ely Britto www.healing-tao.com.br >~~~~~~~ >--- K wrote: >> I have also found some translations to 'clash' with me as you have >> described. I think this is due primarily to the translator. Although if you >> really can't handle it, it may indeed signal a weakness of yours. >> >> The most friendly translation I have yet found is by Brian Browne Walker. If >> there is a friendlier translation, I would like to know about it! >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "diane haldane" >> > i keep going back to it, but i find i keep >> > having a "personality clash" with all the >> > interpretations i have found, or maybe >> > i am having a clash with the i ching itself >> > which seems to have its own personality. >> > anyone else sense that, that it has a personality, or is that a personal >> quirk of mine? >__________________________________________________ >Do You Yahoo!? >Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. >http://im.yahoo.com > > >===== >To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org >from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. From owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Mon Mar 13 08:40:23 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA04871 for hexagram-8-outgoing; Mon, 13 Mar 2000 08:40:23 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: apocalypse.org: majordom set sender to owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org using -f Received: from barra.domain.com.br (barra.domain.com.br [200.196.128.5]) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA04867 for ; Mon, 13 Mar 2000 08:40:21 -0500 Received: from pentium-133 (200.188.61.217) by barra.domain.com.br (NPlex 4.5.042) id 38BFCE1A00086A48 for hexagram-8@apocalypse.org; Mon, 13 Mar 2000 10:43:30 -0300 Message-ID: <000201bf8cf1$c7ad65e0$d93dbcc8@pentium-133> From: "Ely Britto" To: Subject: Re: HEX8: Re: hi and i ching's personality Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2000 10:38:37 -0300 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Sorry for my English mistakes and the erro in typing your name Diane. Light Ely ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. From owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Mon Mar 13 11:09:36 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA18591 for hexagram-8-outgoing; Mon, 13 Mar 2000 11:09:36 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: apocalypse.org: majordom set sender to owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org using -f Received: from sttlpop2.sttl.uswest.net (sttlpop2.sttl.uswest.net [206.81.192.2]) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id LAA18587 for ; Mon, 13 Mar 2000 11:09:35 -0500 Received: (qmail 12268 invoked by alias); 13 Mar 2000 16:10:04 -0000 Delivered-To: fixup-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org@fixme Received: (qmail 12227 invoked by uid 0); 13 Mar 2000 16:10:03 -0000 Received: from vdsl219.sttl.uswest.net (HELO talula) (216.160.108.219) by pop.sttl.uswest.net with SMTP; 13 Mar 2000 16:10:03 -0000 Message-ID: <002501bf8d07$ab20bc40$0200000a@talula> From: "K" To: References: <20000313125248.27100.qmail@web1601.mail.yahoo.com> Subject: Re: HEX8: Re: hi and i ching's personality Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2000 08:17:45 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Sender: owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Forgive me I misspoke myself I think. I merely meant that if some aspect of a perceived 'personality' of the translation left one feeling 'clashed' upon it might either be a weakness of the translation in conveying the meaning of the lines or a weakness in one's ability to comprehend that meaning. In either case, there is no weak without a strong, so clearly all translations have value. When I was carrying the book around with me everywhere I went, I carried at least two copies; one comfortable and familiar, and another as obscure and as impenetrable as I knew of. Worked for me, your mileage may vary. ^-^ ----- Original Message ----- From: "diane haldane" To: Sent: Monday, March 13, 2000 4:52 AM Subject: Re: HEX8: Re: hi and i ching's personality > > hi k, thanks for your recommendation. could > you elaborate on what you mean by my "clash" > with the i ching being a weakness of mine? > you've piqued my curiousity! thanks, diane ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. From owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Mon Mar 13 11:33:52 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA20971 for hexagram-8-outgoing; Mon, 13 Mar 2000 11:33:52 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: apocalypse.org: majordom set sender to owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org using -f Received: from web1611.mail.yahoo.com (web1611.mail.yahoo.com [128.11.23.177]) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id LAA20967 for ; Mon, 13 Mar 2000 11:33:51 -0500 Received: (qmail 28060 invoked by uid 60001); 13 Mar 2000 16:34:19 -0000 Message-ID: <20000313163419.28059.qmail@web1611.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [209.240.200.38] by web1611.mail.yahoo.com; Mon, 13 Mar 2000 08:34:19 PST Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2000 08:34:19 -0800 (PST) From: diane haldane Subject: Re: HEX8: Re: hi and i ching's personality To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org k, thanks for the clarification of what you meant by weakness. thanks also to ely for your thoughts and informations. this "clash" reminds me of the shock i went through when i first encountered the concept of "maya" in hinduism. i was very depressed and confused, but once i understood the concept better, it was actually a relief! i recently have gone through the same thing in my current studies of gnosticism. the ideas are so different it has been difficult to grasp. but i think i have made a breakthrough there too. so i will persist with the i ching. it does make sense that i have to destroy some ideas in order to make room for others. thanks to both of you for the encouragement! regards, diane --- K wrote: > Forgive me I misspoke myself I think. I merely meant that if some aspect of > a perceived 'personality' of the translation left one feeling 'clashed' upon > it might either be a weakness of the translation in conveying the meaning of > the lines or a weakness in one's ability to comprehend that meaning. > > In either case, there is no weak without a strong, so clearly all > translations have value. When I was carrying the book around with me > everywhere I went, I carried at least two copies; one comfortable and > familiar, and another as obscure and as impenetrable as I knew of. Worked > for me, your mileage may vary. ^-^ > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "diane haldane" > > > > hi k, thanks for your recommendation. could > > you elaborate on what you mean by my "clash" > > with the i ching being a weakness of mine? > > you've piqued my curiousity! thanks, diane > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. From owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Mon Mar 13 17:15:16 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA24358 for hexagram-8-outgoing; Mon, 13 Mar 2000 17:15:16 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: apocalypse.org: majordom set sender to owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org using -f Received: from mail1.crcom.net (mail1.crcom.net [208.220.74.12]) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA24343 for ; Mon, 13 Mar 2000 17:15:15 -0500 Received: from ccbswks21.xroadstx.com (max01-08.crcom.net [208.234.65.17]) by mail1.crcom.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id QAA26831 for ; Mon, 13 Mar 2000 16:15:45 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <38CD644E.3904@crcom.net> Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2000 15:57:34 -0600 From: Charlie Higgins Organization: New Insights on Ancient Paradigms X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Subject: HEX8: Re: Cyrille Javery's history of the YJ References: <5a.572d7c.25b2f19b@aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org A while back an aquaintance of mine through email sent me an addendum to the concordance of R&K he made up which with his permission I offered to Hex8. Today I got the following email from him. I though you might be interested in it. Kirk, you will especially be interested in it since it is a synoposis on Javery's book. I would be interested in your remarks to him, as probably would others from Hex8 if you would care to cc it to us. He is not a member of Hex8 but hopefully will be in the future. Charlie Higgins Below is the email I received: ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Subject: Cyrille Javery's history of the YJ Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2000 16:44:26 -0500 From: Lare / Mo Lei-Li ( =?big5?B?svYguXAgsno=?= ) Organization: formerly c61819@gdi.net To: Charlie Higgins Hello, Charlie-- Long time no email. In case you haven't read it, thought you might be interested in a synoposis of Javery's book: http://home.att.net/~mo4/Javery.htm Thanks again for the Legge, --Larry Moore / Mo Lei-Li ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. From owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Tue Mar 14 02:58:09 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id CAA05439 for hexagram-8-outgoing; Tue, 14 Mar 2000 02:58:09 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: apocalypse.org: majordom set sender to owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org using -f Received: from lantana.wanadoo.fr (smtp-rt-8.wanadoo.fr [193.252.19.51]) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id CAA05435 for ; Tue, 14 Mar 2000 02:58:08 -0500 Received: from villosa.wanadoo.fr (193.252.19.122) by lantana.wanadoo.fr; 14 Mar 2000 08:58:39 +0100 Received: from [164.138.195.108] (164.138.195.108) by villosa.wanadoo.fr; 14 Mar 2000 08:58:30 +0100 Message-ID: <38cdf12638e0e427@villosa.wanadoo.fr> (added by villosa.wanadoo.fr) Subject: Re: HEX8: Re: Cyrille Javery's history of the YJ Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2000 08:58:25 +0100 x-sender: kirk@mail.creaweb.fr x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0v3, January 22, 1998 From: Kirk McElhearn To: "I Ching list" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org On 13/03/00 22:57, Charlie Higgins chh@crcom.net is reported to have said: >A while back an aquaintance of mine through email sent me an addendum to >the concordance of R&K he made up which with his permission I offered to >Hex8. Today I got the following email from him. I though you might be >interested in it. > >Kirk, you will especially be interested in it since it is a synoposis on >Javery's book. Thanks for the info. Note that his name is spelled Javary. Kirk vice | versa Translations from French to English, English to French Traductions francais-anglais, anglais-francais kirk@mcelhearn.com http://www.mcelhearn.com Kirk McElhearn | Chemin de la Lauze | 05600 Guillestre | France O=c=O O=c=O O=c=O O=c=O O=c=O O=c=O O=c=O O=c=O FOSSIL FUELS = HEAVY WEATHER O=c=O O=c=O O=c=O O=c=O O=c=O O=c=O O=c=O O=c=O ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. From owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Tue Mar 14 12:01:25 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA08008 for hexagram-8-outgoing; Tue, 14 Mar 2000 12:01:25 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: apocalypse.org: majordom set sender to owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org using -f Received: from imo13.mx.aol.com (imo13.mx.aol.com [152.163.225.3]) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA08003 for ; Tue, 14 Mar 2000 12:01:24 -0500 From: FKegan@aol.com Received: from FKegan@aol.com by imo13.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v25.3.) id h.99.25990dc (4354) for ; Tue, 14 Mar 2000 12:01:25 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <99.25990dc.25ffca65@aol.com> Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2000 12:01:25 EST Subject: Re: HEX8: Re: hi and i ching's personality To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Windows sub 66 Sender: owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Hi Diane and Ely, The question of translations, of any book, and especially the I Ching is that you are getting the translator's slant. The Ancient Greeks called translators traitors, probably the American idiom would be to say translator is trashsayer. The I Ching is not a work of poetry, its essence is in the geometry of cycles described in number patterns. The imagery used to express or explain its patterns is always a bit of a tangent from the actual symbolism. The more a translation feels comfortable to a reader, the more it has taken off on a verbal tangent from the essential geometry. One pays for the comfort by the gap that develops between the words of the translation and the exact fit of an oracle to your situation. At some point you will find the words of the translation speaking of their interests and saying nothing to your oracle. The actual text of the I Ching is quite staccato, standard phrases of imagery and slogans. Gia-Fu Feng did a Taoist translation in the '70's (which I helped with the English phrasing, and finally got the copyright registered last year) which has a general content much like the Wilhelm/Baynes in specific translation only the four Chinese slogans they render as "Supreme Success Perseverance Furthers" Gia-Fu used "Primal Bliss Fruitful to Have Zest." Gia-Fu didn't write further commentary, and the original manuscript was rejected by his publisher at the time. The imagery of the I Ching is accessible through most translations, however, the meaning of that imagery in terms of the actual geometrical symbolism of the I Ching is only available through the ancient number patterns. Fortunately, they are basically the same in Pythagorean or astrological metaphysics; however, they are still very different from modern analytical geometry. The import of each hexagram can be felt in the simple dynamics of the focus in yang and background in yin taking their place in the first to sixth stages of universal cycle. The meaning of the hexagram which is trying to be described in their names is contained in their sequence, which number from the unit to 10 of which set from the simple water cycle of hexagrams 1-10 to the cosmic symbols of the set from 51 to 60 and then the all encompassing abstract symbolism of the last 4 hexagrams. Each of us constructs our own mix of personal relationship and technical infrastructure to frame our work with the I Ching. How much is to be gained by fighting with a translation that feels that it "clashes" and how much from taking comfort in one that doesn't is a decision having more to do with your own growth issues than with the text of the I Ching. Frank R. Kegan ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. From owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Tue Mar 14 13:34:37 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA16545 for hexagram-8-outgoing; Tue, 14 Mar 2000 13:34:37 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: apocalypse.org: majordom set sender to owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org using -f Received: from hotmail.com (oe11.law7.hotmail.com [216.33.236.115]) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id NAA16530 for ; Tue, 14 Mar 2000 13:34:36 -0500 Received: (qmail 42944 invoked by uid 65534); 14 Mar 2000 18:34:42 -0000 Message-ID: <20000314183442.42943.qmail@hotmail.com> X-Originating-IP: [195.95.42.83] From: "Thomas" To: References: <5a.572d7c.25b2f19b@aol.com> <38CD644E.3904@crcom.net> Subject: Re: HEX8: Re: Cyrille Javery's history of the YJ Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2000 19:32:31 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Hi, I'm new to Hexagram-8, and live in Belgium. I use the I Ching in a rather psychological sense, I mean I don't believe that anything magic happens, but rather that the random phrases act on the mind to stimuate thinking, decision making and intuition like Zen koans. I love Chinese philosophy specially, and the later 10 Wings commentary of the I Ching is a very fine work of Chinese thought. I like Wang Bi's commentary too, as translated by Richard Lynn. I have a few ideas on: http://home.att.net/~mo4/Javery.htm ,it's an interesting and probably accurate summary of the history of the I Ching. I've actually had the opportunity to meet Cirylle Javary in Brussels. What's amazing in the chronology is that the "yin/yang broken/full" line visual hexagrams were invented some 500 years after the divination sayings. The graphic hexagrams came from the ideas of the Yin-Yang school around 300 BC. Yet the divination sayings came in groups of 6 from the very start in the Zhou period (800 BC): each line was associated with a number, similar to the system of 6,7;8;9 still used for the coin tossing. (There is evidence of this on Zhou bronze vessels). But there were no visual hexagram images then. Still later, during the Han dyansty, the trigrams were invented. (All this is explained in a French book edited by Cyrille: Les mutations du Yi King). Still there is a contradiction here because Cyrille Javary seems to date the Great Commentary (from the 10 Wings) to 400-300 BC, and the trigrams to 200BC or later, yet the trigrams are mentioned already in the Great Commetary. Angus Graham (in Disputers of the Tao) probably more correctly dates the Ten Wings to 200 BC, about the time of the discovery of the trigrams. And those later Han Taoist-Confucian inspired philosophers who wrote the ten Wings rewrote the whole I Ching history backwards, saying the order of discovery was: 1. the trigrams 2. the hexagrams 3. the line texts. Those ancient Chinese weren't so worried about historical accuracy...but about making the best cosmolgical sense. Thomas Visit my Confucius page: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Bridge/8744 ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. From owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Tue Mar 14 19:59:58 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id TAA01691 for hexagram-8-outgoing; Tue, 14 Mar 2000 19:59:58 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: apocalypse.org: majordom set sender to owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org using -f Received: from imo-d01.mx.aol.com (imo-d01.mx.aol.com [205.188.157.33]) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA01680 for ; Tue, 14 Mar 2000 19:59:57 -0500 From: Autorbis@aol.com Received: from Autorbis@aol.com by imo-d01.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v25.3.) id h.22.31fe7d5 (7065) for ; Tue, 14 Mar 2000 20:00:01 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <22.31fe7d5.26003a91@aol.com> Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2000 20:00:01 EST Subject: Re: HEX8: Re: Cyrille Javery's history of the YJ To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0.i for Windows sub 85 Sender: owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org << Hi, I'm new to Hexagram-8, and live in Belgium. I use the I Ching in a rather psychological sense, I mean I don't believe that anything magic happens, but rather that the random phrases act on the mind to stimuate thinking, decision making and intuition like Zen koans. I love Chinese philosophy specially, and the later 10 Wings commentary of the I Ching is a very fine work of Chinese thought. I like Wang Bi's commentary too, as translated by Richard Lynn. I have a few ideas on: http://home.att.net/~mo4/Javery.htm ,it's an interesting and probably accurate summary of the history of the I Ching. I've actually had the opportunity to meet Cirylle Javary in Brussels. What's amazing in the chronology is that the "yin/yang broken/full" line visual hexagrams were invented some 500 years after the divination sayings. The graphic hexagrams came from the ideas of the Yin-Yang school around 300 BC. Yet the divination sayings came in groups of 6 from the very start in the Zhou period (800 BC): each line was associated with a number, similar to the system of 6,7;8;9 still used for the coin tossing. (There is evidence of this on Zhou bronze vessels). But there were no visual hexagram images then. Still later, during the Han dyansty, the trigrams were invented. (All this is explained in a French book edited by Cyrille: Les mutations du Yi King). Still there is a contradiction here because Cyrille Javary seems to date the Great Commentary (from the 10 Wings) to 400-300 BC, and the trigrams to 200BC or later, yet the trigrams are mentioned already in the Great Commetary. Angus Graham (in Disputers of the Tao) probably more correctly dates the Ten Wings to 200 BC, about the time of the discovery of the trigrams. And those later Han Taoist-Confucian inspired philosophers who wrote the ten Wings rewrote the whole I Ching history backwards, saying the order of discovery was: 1. the trigrams 2. the hexagrams 3. the line texts. Those ancient Chinese weren't so worried about historical accuracy...but about making the best cosmolgical sense. Thomas Visit my Confucius page: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Bridge/8744 >> Hi Thomas, nice to have you here. Actually the situation with these few old chinese documents doesn't allow any sure conclusion, if the trigram-idea was earlier or later than the hexagram-idea. You didn't mention, that there are various documents, which indicate, that in earlier time some other numbers are used than 6-7-8-9 to form an oracle result. Lothar ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. From owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Tue Mar 14 19:59:47 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id TAA01647 for hexagram-8-outgoing; Tue, 14 Mar 2000 19:59:47 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: apocalypse.org: majordom set sender to owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org using -f Received: from imo17.mx.aol.com (imo17.mx.aol.com [152.163.225.7]) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA01643 for ; Tue, 14 Mar 2000 19:59:46 -0500 From: Autorbis@aol.com Received: from Autorbis@aol.com by imo17.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v25.3.) id h.17.2efcbd6 (7065) for ; Tue, 14 Mar 2000 19:59:46 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <17.2efcbd6.26003a82@aol.com> Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2000 19:59:46 EST Subject: Re: HEX8: Re: hi and i ching's personality To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0.i for Windows sub 85 Sender: owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org << The meaning of the hexagram which is trying to be described in their names is contained in their sequence, which number from the unit to 10 of which set from the simple water cycle of hexagrams 1-10 to the cosmic symbols of the set from 51 to 60 and then the all encompassing abstract symbolism of the last 4 hexagrams. Each of us constructs our own mix of personal relationship and technical infrastructure to frame our work with the I Ching. How much is to be gained by fighting with a translation that feels that it "clashes" and how much from taking comfort in one that doesn't is a decision having more to do with your own growth issues than with the text of the I Ching. Frank R. Kegan >> Hello Frank, The last part of your letter sounds, as if you've a rather special theory about the mysterious numerology of I-Ching. Could you tell a little more about it? Lothar ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. From owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Wed Mar 15 07:59:19 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id HAA02528 for hexagram-8-outgoing; Wed, 15 Mar 2000 07:59:19 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: apocalypse.org: majordom set sender to owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org using -f Received: from barra.domain.com.br (barra.domain.com.br [200.196.128.5]) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA02524 for ; Wed, 15 Mar 2000 07:59:16 -0500 Received: from pentium-133 (200.188.61.218) by barra.domain.com.br (NPlex 4.5.042) id 38BFCE1A000B87D0 for hexagram-8@apocalypse.org; Wed, 15 Mar 2000 10:02:23 -0300 Message-ID: <000201bf8e7e$65dd7920$da3dbcc8@pentium-133> From: "Ely Britto" To: Subject: Re: HEX8: Re: hi and i ching's personality Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2000 09:46:49 -0300 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Dear Frank, Welcome to the list! We needed new people here to warm up our discussions. Thank you for saying in good English what I am not able to say with my poor English! Sorry about that. I would love to improve my writing but have no time free to learn properly. Let me try to communicate using the poor English I know. I almost agreed with your thoughts but there are two things that you said I would like to talk to you about. First, this: *The I Ching is not a work of poetry, its essence is in the geometry of cycles described in number patterns. * And this: *The imagery of the I Ching is accessible through most translations, however, the meaning of that imagery in >terms of the actual geometrical symbolism of the I Ching is only available >through the ancient number patterns. Fortunately, they are basically the same in Pythagorean or astrological metaphysics; however, they are still very different from modern analytical geometry. There is an old Chinese text written by Wang Fu-chih that states: "Between Heaven and Earth there exists nothing but law and energy. The energy carries the law and the law regulates the energy. Law does not manifest itself (has no form); it is only through energy that the image is formed, and the image yields the number. If this law becomes blurred the image is not right and the number is not clear. This reveals itself in great things and expresses itself in small things. Thus only a man of the highest integrity can understand this law; basing himself on its revelation he can grasp the symbols, and observing its small expressions, he can understand the auguries." As you can see, according to that ancient tex,t numbers were not the special base of the I Ching symbology, you have first the law and afterwards the energy that gives birth to numbers. There are a lot of people here working with numbers. I think you will enjoy talking to them. My work is more with the law and energy. About poetry: It is all made with numbers (see the classics), like music, like the beautiful paintings of Leonardo Da Vinci and all the Gothic architecture of the ancient churches. I look at the I Ching as the most beautiful poem I ever read, because it is life and life is made of beauty and harmony. Think how much poetry sings around us which we do not see because we are busy with our concrete mind. All the great men whose work changed the evolution of science talk about the poetry of the universe. They can see the poetry in numbers, in mathematics, and in the laws of life. I think we need more yin energy to perceive what they could see. Would you open your heart to see the poetry of the I Ching? Love Ely ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. From owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Wed Mar 15 11:16:00 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA18837 for hexagram-8-outgoing; Wed, 15 Mar 2000 11:16:00 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: apocalypse.org: majordom set sender to owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org using -f Received: from hotmail.com (oe35.law7.hotmail.com [216.33.236.30]) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id LAA18831 for ; Wed, 15 Mar 2000 11:15:59 -0500 Received: (qmail 81374 invoked by uid 65534); 15 Mar 2000 16:16:12 -0000 Message-ID: <20000315161612.81373.qmail@hotmail.com> X-Originating-IP: [195.95.42.200] From: "Thomas" To: References: <22.31fe7d5.26003a91@aol.com> Subject: Re: HEX8: Re: Cyrille Javery's history of the YJ Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2000 17:14:06 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org > Actually the situation with these few old chinese documents doesn't allow any > sure conclusion, if the trigram-idea was earlier or later than the > hexagram-idea. Yes, you're probably right. I rechecked my I Ching books: there is a French one "Les Signes et les Mutations" by Wang Dongliang: he quotes Zhang Zhenglang who was the Chinese scholar who discovered those "bagua" numerals coded on the Zhou bronze vessels. (You are of course right to point out that there were more of them than the 6,7,8,9 that we still know.) And in his opinion, the only first hard evidence we have of graphic full/broken line hexagrams is the silk Mawangdui manuscript dated 168 BC. Before that hard date, everything is more or less good guessing. For the trigrams, Richard Rutt's remarkable book "Zhouyi" includes a translation of the "Zuo Commentary" with the earliest practical I Ching readings known: that "Zuo Commentary" is thought to have been compiled in the 3d century BC. In that text the trigrams have the symbolism we know: wind, mountain... But this is still 500 years after the writing of the divination formulas. There must have been a gradual evolution, starting with formulas grouped in batches of 6 and identied by numbers only (like or 6,7,8,9). Imagine using the I Ching with coins to get the numbers 6-9 and not drawing the hexagram: that's how it probably started. Then gradually the lines were drawn, maybe after several hundred years, and still later the trigrams were thought of. But, as you say, it can't be dated with much precision. Hello from Thomas Visit my Confucius page: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Bridge/8744 ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. From owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Wed Mar 15 12:49:50 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA28915 for hexagram-8-outgoing; Wed, 15 Mar 2000 12:49:50 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: apocalypse.org: majordom set sender to owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org using -f Received: from imo28.mx.aol.com (imo28.mx.aol.com [152.163.225.72]) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA28909 for ; Wed, 15 Mar 2000 12:49:50 -0500 From: Autorbis@aol.com Received: from Autorbis@aol.com by imo28.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v25.3.) id h.da.2199033 (4340) for ; Wed, 15 Mar 2000 12:50:01 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2000 12:50:00 EST Subject: Re: HEX8: Re: Cyrille Javery's history of the YJ To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0.i for Windows sub 85 Sender: owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Hi Thomas, << > Actually the situation with these few old chinese documents doesn't allow any > sure conclusion, if the trigram-idea was earlier or later than the > hexagram-idea. Yes, you're probably right. I rechecked my I Ching books: there is a French one "Les Signes et les Mutations" by Wang Dongliang: he quotes Zhang Zhenglang who was the Chinese scholar who discovered those "bagua" numerals coded on the Zhou bronze vessels. (You are of course right to point out that there were more of them than the 6,7,8,9 that we still know.) And in his opinion, the only first hard evidence we have of graphic full/broken line hexagrams is the silk Mawangdui manuscript dated 168 BC. Before that hard date, everything is more or less good guessing. For the trigrams, Richard Rutt's remarkable book "Zhouyi" includes a translation of the "Zuo Commentary" with the earliest practical I Ching readings known: that "Zuo Commentary" is thought to have been compiled in the 3d century BC. In that text the trigrams have the symbolism we know: wind, mountain... But this is still 500 years after the writing of the divination formulas. There must have been a gradual evolution, starting with formulas grouped in batches of 6 and identied by numbers only (like or 6,7,8,9). Imagine using the I Ching with coins to get the numbers 6-9 and not drawing the hexagram: that's how it probably started. Then gradually the lines were drawn, maybe after several hundred years, and still later the trigrams were thought of. But, as you say, it can't be dated with much precision. Hello from Thomas Visit my Confucius page: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Bridge/8744 >> ### I had my own ideas about the use of different numbers in earlier time and wrote some letters about "the lost 5th change". I'll send them to you privately, as I already published them in hex-8. Anyway, I'm glad to meet somebody with interest to order these developments of I-Ching in the common time-table. Why do you think, that the original text of I-Ching (without commentaries, you call it "divination formulas") developed around 800 BC? If we follow the legend, that it is a production of the early Chou-kings, then we've to look at a time around 1050 BC. Lothar ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. From owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Wed Mar 15 14:20:57 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA03906 for hexagram-8-outgoing; Wed, 15 Mar 2000 14:20:57 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: apocalypse.org: majordom set sender to owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org using -f Received: from hotmail.com (oe19.law7.hotmail.com [216.33.236.123]) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id OAA03902 for ; Wed, 15 Mar 2000 14:20:56 -0500 Received: (qmail 67154 invoked by uid 65534); 15 Mar 2000 19:21:10 -0000 Message-ID: <20000315192109.67153.qmail@hotmail.com> X-Originating-IP: [195.95.42.68] From: "Thomas" To: References: Subject: Re: HEX8: Re: Cyrille Javery's history of the YJ Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2000 20:18:43 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Why do you think, that the original text > of I-Ching (without commentaries, you call it "divination formulas") > developed around 800 BC? If we follow the legend, that it is a production of > the early Chou-kings, then we've to look at a time around 1050 BC. > > Lothar Another tough question. Those bronze vases with the 6 number codes engraved on the inside surface are, according to Richard Rutt in his "Zhouyi, The Book of Changes", Shang and early Zhou, so that could point to a date like 1050 BC. But there were many other divination formulas around, and nothing says that those codes refer to the I Ching. Scholars look at the language of the I Ching too, and find many similarities in style with the Book of Odes (a Zhou book of poetry): the oldest of these Odes are dated 8th century BC. Edward Shaughnessy from Chicago, perhaps the leading scholar on the Zhou period, dates the I Ching to the late 9th century BC. Richard Lynn, in the introduction to his "Wang Bi" I Ching translation, suggests the same 9th century. Lynn writes too that "the hexagrams themselves may be much older"! Which fits with the 6 coded numbers on the earlier bronze vases. So there was a lot of divination by sixes going on before the I Ching, and in that sense, the traditional record is right! The numbers did come first. (Although not the graphic yin-yang hexagrams that came much later). (I'll answer your number letters later because I need to read them carefully.) Hello from Thomas Looking for Confucius: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Bridge/8744 ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. From owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Wed Mar 15 16:48:34 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA14587 for hexagram-8-outgoing; Wed, 15 Mar 2000 16:48:34 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: apocalypse.org: majordom set sender to owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org using -f Received: from imo26.mx.aol.com (imo26.mx.aol.com [152.163.225.70]) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA14583 for ; Wed, 15 Mar 2000 16:48:32 -0500 From: Autorbis@aol.com Received: from Autorbis@aol.com by imo26.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v25.3.) id h.a3.362b3dd (4413) for ; Wed, 15 Mar 2000 16:48:43 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2000 16:48:42 EST Subject: Re: HEX8: Re: Cyrille Javery's history of the YJ To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0.i for Windows sub 85 Sender: owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org In einer eMail vom 15.03.2000 20:22:27, schreiben Sie: << Why do you think, that the original text > of I-Ching (without commentaries, you call it "divination formulas") > developed around 800 BC? If we follow the legend, that it is a production of > the early Chou-kings, then we've to look at a time around 1050 BC. > > Lothar Another tough question. Those bronze vases with the 6 number codes engraved on the inside surface are, according to Richard Rutt in his "Zhouyi, The Book of Changes", Shang and early Zhou, so that could point to a date like 1050 BC. But there were many other divination formulas around, and nothing says that those codes refer to the I Ching. Scholars look at the language of the I Ching too, and find many similarities in style with the Book of Odes (a Zhou book of poetry): the oldest of these Odes are dated 8th century BC. Edward Shaughnessy from Chicago, perhaps the leading scholar on the Zhou period, dates the I Ching to the late 9th century BC. Richard Lynn, in the introduction to his "Wang Bi" I Ching translation, suggests the same 9th century. Lynn writes too that "the hexagrams themselves may be much older"! Which fits with the 6 coded numbers on the earlier bronze vases. So there was a lot of divination by sixes going on before the I Ching, and in that sense, the traditional record is right! The numbers did come first. (Although not the graphic yin-yang hexagrams that came much later). (I'll answer your number letters later because I need to read them carefully.) Hello from Thomas >> Hi Thomas, in the case, that there are realistical arguments, that the style of the early texts of the divination formulas points towards 8th + 9th century, one has to request the logical conditions of such a statement. 1. there are not many texts as early as the 8th + 9th century or earlier (perhaps my knowledge about this should be refreshed). How should the analysts have enough material to compare and to give such a statement? 2. The text of 8th century might have been modernized at that time or earlier, which is somehow probable, as one should assume, that the chinese scripture and language did probably have some development in the first centuries of the Chou-reignment (cause the Chou were a foreign element, which mixed with the earlier Shang-people, such a mixing always is accompanied by change in various aspects). Then any stylish sign wouldn't say nothing about the real origin. For instance: if you read Defoes "Robinson" in the original or in a modernized form, makes also a huge difference. In the modernized form you couldn't identify it as a work of 17th century. So any argument about the real age stays (naturally) doubtful, I guess. Greetings Lothar ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. From owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Thu Mar 16 02:24:09 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id CAA17156 for hexagram-8-outgoing; Thu, 16 Mar 2000 02:24:09 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: apocalypse.org: majordom set sender to owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org using -f Received: from imo24.mx.aol.com (imo24.mx.aol.com [152.163.225.68]) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id CAA17152 for ; Thu, 16 Mar 2000 02:24:08 -0500 From: FKegan@aol.com Received: from FKegan@aol.com by imo24.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v25.3.) id h.a.1a56ff9 (4226) for ; Thu, 16 Mar 2000 02:24:25 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2000 02:24:25 EST Subject: HEX8: Re: poetry and geometry To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Windows sub 66 Sender: owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Hi Ely, I am working these days with our Government Census, helping folks who think better in Spanish answer questionnaires written in English. The issues of translation are their own unique area of understanding. One of the things I noted about being bilingual is that meaning is not stored in words since if one is with other bilingual folks you can't easily remember what language things were said in, but can easily render the meanings in either language. I thank you for the quote from the text about law and energy, it is a nice expression of ancient Chinese physics. I can appreciate the poetry and the text, what changes is also being familiar with the geometrical constructions involved so I have very different associations to the passage you quote. That a text uses the word "text" isn't really authority, it is the meaning being expressed (and translated) that I care about. The passage you quote, mixes what would be called "numeral" and "number pattern" with very general (and quite poetic) descriptions of fundamental notions of physics -- that is universal principles or laws and empirical process or energy. The I Ching involves poetry and number and geometrical patterns and imagery from Ancient China and the eternal government bureaucracy as well as the personal input of each person reading and responding to its text, names, images, patterns, etc. None of that detracts from the I Ching as also a system of geometrical number patterns and cyclic symbolism quite parallel to those developed in other cultures through the centuries. Geometry is a universal language and absolute science which is shared around the world over centuries. There is great poetry and the symbolism of life in it as well as in the interpretative texts, whether I Ching or astrology or Pythagorean metaphysics. There are many perspectives, some each of us knows about and others each of us does not. It is not that my heart is not open to poetry--- I write poetic descriptions of the hexagrams and their meaning. Rather I have a different perspective based upon my experience with the oracle, with translations and with the correspondences between symbol systems. As your text quote notes, there is an integration of law and energy, and from Ancient Times geometry has been the royal road to understand both. I am trying to figure out how to explain the beauty and poetry of geometry to those who know only text words. It is a very difficult concept since it is like a universal language of all poetry rather than just the poetic wisps available with mere letters. Perhaps in time we can all open to the experience of one another and see the poetry and the organization of each perspective. Frank ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. From owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Thu Mar 16 08:13:42 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA29257 for hexagram-8-outgoing; Thu, 16 Mar 2000 08:13:42 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: apocalypse.org: majordom set sender to owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org using -f Received: from barra.domain.com.br (barra.domain.com.br [200.196.128.5]) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA29253 for ; Thu, 16 Mar 2000 08:13:38 -0500 Received: from pentium-133 (200.188.61.49) by barra.domain.com.br (NPlex 4.5.042) id 38BFCE1A000D5864 for hexagram-8@apocalypse.org; Thu, 16 Mar 2000 10:16:51 -0300 Message-ID: <000401bf8f49$96211bc0$313dbcc8@pentium-133> From: "Ely Britto" To: Subject: Re: HEX8: Re: poetry and geometry Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2000 10:12:17 -0300 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org > The I Ching involves poetry and number and geometrical patterns and >imagery from Ancient China and the eternal government bureaucracy as well as >the personal input of each person reading and responding to its text, names, >images, patterns, etc. None of that detracts from the I Ching as also a >system of geometrical number patterns and cyclic symbolism quite parallel to >those developed in other cultures through the centuries. Geometry is a >universal language and absolute science which is shared around the world over >centuries. There is great poetry and the symbolism of life in it as well as >in the interpretative texts, whether I Ching or astrology or Pythagorean >metaphysics. Thanks Frank and.... > I am trying to figure out how to explain the beauty and poetry of >geometry to those who know only text words. It is a very difficult concept >since it is like a universal language of all poetry rather than just the >poetic wisps available with mere letters. I can understand, this is the reason the ancient sages taught without words, using just the energy and feelings. > Perhaps in time we can all open to the experience of one another and see >the poetry and the organization of each perspective. In Hexagram-8 we are working on this...but sometimes with no success. I am an optmist woman, as you I hope that *in time we can open to the experience of one another and see the poetry and the organization of each perspective.* It would be lovely!! Thanks Ely >Frank > > >===== >To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org >from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. From owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Fri Mar 17 01:42:55 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA08375 for hexagram-8-outgoing; Fri, 17 Mar 2000 01:42:55 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: apocalypse.org: majordom set sender to owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org using -f Received: from web1606.mail.yahoo.com (web1606.mail.yahoo.com [128.11.23.206]) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id BAA08371 for ; Fri, 17 Mar 2000 01:42:55 -0500 Received: (qmail 16294 invoked by uid 60001); 17 Mar 2000 06:43:49 -0000 Message-ID: <20000317064349.16293.qmail@web1606.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [209.240.216.105] by web1606.mail.yahoo.com; Thu, 16 Mar 2000 22:43:49 PST Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2000 22:43:49 -0800 (PST) From: diane haldane Subject: HEX8: eric's i ching To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org does anyone know what translation is used on 'eric's i ching" page? http://www.homebrew.net/ching that one really speaks to me, it is truly amazing how direct it has been, in very uncanny ways, and is actually the one that got me back into studying the i ching. thanks, diane __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. From owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Fri Mar 17 17:52:45 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA32380 for hexagram-8-outgoing; Fri, 17 Mar 2000 17:52:45 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: apocalypse.org: majordom set sender to owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org using -f Received: from fw.iris.edu (fw.iris.edu [198.77.109.66]) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA32376 for ; Fri, 17 Mar 2000 17:52:44 -0500 Received: from [192.35.78.201] (dmac201.iris.edu [192.35.78.201]) by fw.iris.edu (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id RAA27620 for ; Fri, 17 Mar 2000 17:53:43 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <20000317064349.16293.qmail@web1606.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2000 17:52:10 -0500 To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org From: "Dr R. Butler" Subject: Re: HEX8: eric's i ching Sender: owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Hi Diane, Based on the one hexagram I received when checking it, the text is derived from the Wilhelm/Baynes version. This particular abridgement of the W/B was widely distributed as "/usr/games/ching" in early versions on the UNIX operating system. All the best, Rhett >does anyone know what translation is used >on 'eric's i ching" page? >http://www.homebrew.net/ching >that one really speaks to me, it is truly >amazing how direct it has been, in very >uncanny ways, and is actually the one that >got me back into studying the i ching. >thanks, diane > >__________________________________________________ >Do You Yahoo!? >Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. >http://im.yahoo.com > > >===== >To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org >from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. From owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Fri Mar 17 18:42:02 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA03841 for hexagram-8-outgoing; Fri, 17 Mar 2000 18:42:02 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: apocalypse.org: majordom set sender to owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org using -f Received: from fw.iris.edu (fw.iris.edu [198.77.109.66]) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA03837 for ; Fri, 17 Mar 2000 18:42:01 -0500 Received: from [192.35.78.201] (dmac201.iris.edu [192.35.78.201]) by fw.iris.edu (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id SAA17014 for ; Fri, 17 Mar 2000 18:43:01 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2000 18:41:32 -0500 To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org From: "Dr R. Butler" Subject: HEX8: King Wen's authorship Sender: owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Hi All, I am wondering if there is *any* evidence that contradicts ascribing the primary authorship of the Names and Judgements of the Hexagrams to the literary King Wen? By primary authorship, I accept that the Duke of Zhou may have amended the text in Hexagram 35, in reference to his younger brother, Kang. Any ideas? All the best, Rhett ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. From owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Fri Mar 17 20:04:27 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id UAA08422 for hexagram-8-outgoing; Fri, 17 Mar 2000 20:04:27 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: apocalypse.org: majordom set sender to owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org using -f Received: from imo20.mx.aol.com (imo20.mx.aol.com [152.163.225.10]) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA08418 for ; Fri, 17 Mar 2000 20:04:26 -0500 From: FKegan@aol.com Received: from FKegan@aol.com by imo20.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v25.3.) id h.a4.1d2c283 (4318) for ; Fri, 17 Mar 2000 20:04:49 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2000 20:04:49 EST Subject: Re: HEX8: eric's i ching To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Windows sub 66 Sender: owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Hi Diane, The translation on "eric's i ching" is certainly the Wilhelm/Baynes. Perhaps more intriguing would be the random number generation routine used to produce the oracle in response to your question. Of course, it is not just objective details which are usually behind having an oracle or set of oracle particularly call to your spirit. When a friend of mine who was an early computer programmer first showed me the oracle of the I Ching and the Wilhelm/Baynes-- Bollingen Press translation I found myself impressed not with the actual text, but rather with the sense I had when reading it that I was being addressed by a living sage spirit. The experience you had with the oracle's from the Internet was much more the I Ching reaching out to you than anything special about the text. However, the Wilhelm is the standard English translation and it will do you in great stead. Frank ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. From owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Fri Mar 17 22:52:24 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id WAA14676 for hexagram-8-outgoing; Fri, 17 Mar 2000 22:52:24 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: apocalypse.org: majordom set sender to owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org using -f Received: from tha.express-news.net (admin.express-news.net [204.57.68.22]) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA14671 for ; Fri, 17 Mar 2000 22:52:23 -0500 Received: from newmicronpc ([204.57.69.110]) by tha.express-news.net (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-60526U7500L4800S0V35) with SMTP id net for ; Fri, 17 Mar 2000 21:53:18 -0600 Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.20000317214508.007d2ec0@express-news.net> X-Sender: omei@express-news.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2000 21:45:08 -0600 To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org From: omei shan Subject: HEX8: A Chi Kung exercise Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org I know it's not *exactly* the I Ching, but... Has anyone ever heard of a Chi Kung practice sometimes called "The Egg Exercise?" Monica ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. From owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Sat Mar 18 00:36:17 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA18125 for hexagram-8-outgoing; Sat, 18 Mar 2000 00:36:17 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: apocalypse.org: majordom set sender to owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org using -f Received: from barra.domain.com.br (barra.domain.com.br [200.196.128.5]) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA18121 for ; Sat, 18 Mar 2000 00:36:14 -0500 Received: from pentium-133 (200.188.61.209) by barra.domain.com.br (NPlex 4.5.042) id 38BFCE1A0010352D for hexagram-8@apocalypse.org; Sat, 18 Mar 2000 02:39:53 -0300 Message-ID: <000301bf909c$1487b840$d13dbcc8@pentium-133> From: "Ely Britto" To: Subject: Re: HEX8: A Chi Kung exercise Date: Sat, 18 Mar 2000 02:35:18 -0300 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Hello Monica, This exercise is part of the Chinese Inner Alchemy as taught by Mantak Chia. It is not *exactly* the I Ching as we know it, it is about energy. It is used to strenght some inner muscle so you can build up the creative energy, transform it and use it to develop spiritual goals. Hope it helps Ely ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. From owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Sat Mar 18 00:43:14 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA18683 for hexagram-8-outgoing; Sat, 18 Mar 2000 00:43:14 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: apocalypse.org: majordom set sender to owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org using -f Received: from web1610.mail.yahoo.com (web1610.mail.yahoo.com [128.11.23.164]) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id AAA18679 for ; Sat, 18 Mar 2000 00:43:12 -0500 Received: (qmail 22438 invoked by uid 60001); 18 Mar 2000 05:44:14 -0000 Message-ID: <20000318054414.22437.qmail@web1610.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [209.240.216.61] by web1610.mail.yahoo.com; Fri, 17 Mar 2000 21:44:14 PST Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2000 21:44:14 -0800 (PST) From: diane haldane Subject: Re: HEX8: eric's i ching To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org hi rhett, thanks for the info. i'm surprised it is wilhelm/baynes, as i didn't really like that translation when i first became interested in the i ching. but, i've changed! this eric never finished his homepage, but i'm sure glad that i ching is still on the net! thanks again, diane ~~~~~~~ --- "Dr R. Butler" wrote: > Hi Diane, > > Based on the one hexagram I received when checking it, the text is derived > from the Wilhelm/Baynes version. This particular abridgement of the W/B was > widely distributed as "/usr/games/ching" in early versions on the UNIX > operating system. > > All the best, > > Rhett > > > >does anyone know what translation is used > >on 'eric's i ching" page? > >http://www.homebrew.net/ching > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. From owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Sat Mar 18 11:39:28 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA00878 for hexagram-8-outgoing; Sat, 18 Mar 2000 11:39:28 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: apocalypse.org: majordom set sender to owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org using -f Received: from pimout8-int.prodigy.net (pimout8-ext.prodigy.net [207.115.59.137]) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA00874 for ; Sat, 18 Mar 2000 11:39:27 -0500 Received: from mommy (LSANA070-0564.splitrock.net [63.255.54.56]) by pimout8-int.prodigy.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id LAA291962; Sat, 18 Mar 2000 11:40:31 -0500 Message-ID: <003401bf90f8$dc811740$3836ff3f@mommy> From: "carolynne" To: References: <20000318054414.22437.qmail@web1610.mail.yahoo.com> Subject: Re: HEX8: eric's i ching Date: Sat, 18 Mar 2000 08:41:49 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org I can't even imagine using an I Ching translation other than the Wilhelm/Baynes book. The clear and concise vocabulary knocks my socks off every time. Reading and consulting the I Ching has been a study of mine since 1968 and I still feel like a student. It has been an excellent guide for all my questions. There is a good little companion to that edition put out late last year by Jill Richards which may be helpful to some. All the major book stores carry it. carolynne ----- Original Message ----- From: diane haldane To: Sent: Friday, March 17, 2000 9:44 PM Subject: Re: HEX8: eric's i ching > > > hi rhett, thanks for the info. i'm surprised > it is wilhelm/baynes, as i didn't really like > that translation when i first became interested in the i ching. but, i've changed! > this eric never finished his homepage, but > i'm sure glad that i ching is still on the > net! thanks again, diane > ~~~~~~~ > --- "Dr R. Butler" wrote: > > Hi Diane, > > > > Based on the one hexagram I received when checking it, the text is derived > > from the Wilhelm/Baynes version. This particular abridgement of the W/B was > > widely distributed as "/usr/games/ching" in early versions on the UNIX > > operating system. > > > > All the best, > > > > Rhett > > > > > > >does anyone know what translation is used > > >on 'eric's i ching" page? > > >http://www.homebrew.net/ching > > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. > http://im.yahoo.com > > > ===== > To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org > from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. From owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Sat Mar 18 12:27:09 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA02847 for hexagram-8-outgoing; Sat, 18 Mar 2000 12:27:09 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: apocalypse.org: majordom set sender to owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org using -f Received: from pimout7-int.prodigy.net (pimout7-ext.prodigy.net [207.115.63.106]) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA02843 for ; Sat, 18 Mar 2000 12:27:08 -0500 Received: from mommy (LSANA070-0564.splitrock.net [63.255.54.56]) by pimout7-int.prodigy.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id MAA264990; Sat, 18 Mar 2000 12:27:59 -0500 Message-ID: <001501bf90ff$86b78ea0$3836ff3f@mommy> From: "carolynne" To: References: <20000318054414.22437.qmail@web1610.mail.yahoo.com> <003401bf90f8$dc811740$3836ff3f@mommy> Subject: Re: HEX8: eric's i ching Date: Sat, 18 Mar 2000 09:29:32 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Sorry, I forgot to give the title of the book I mentioned. It is: The I Ching Companion, An Answer for Every Question by Jill Richards and published by Samuel Weiser, Inc. York Beach, Maine. carolynne ----- Original Message ----- From: carolynne To: Sent: Saturday, March 18, 2000 8:41 AM Subject: Re: HEX8: eric's i ching > I can't even imagine using an I Ching translation other than the > Wilhelm/Baynes book. The clear and concise vocabulary knocks my socks off > every time. Reading and consulting the I Ching has been a study of mine > since 1968 and I still feel like a student. It has been an excellent guide > for all my questions. There is a good little companion to that edition put > out late last year by Jill Richards which may be helpful to some. All the > major book stores carry it. > carolynne > ----- Original Message ----- > From: diane haldane > To: > Sent: Friday, March 17, 2000 9:44 PM > Subject: Re: HEX8: eric's i ching > > > > > > > > hi rhett, thanks for the info. i'm surprised > > it is wilhelm/baynes, as i didn't really like > > that translation when i first became interested in the i ching. but, i've > changed! > > this eric never finished his homepage, but > > i'm sure glad that i ching is still on the > > net! thanks again, diane > > ~~~~~~~ > > --- "Dr R. Butler" wrote: > > > Hi Diane, > > > > > > Based on the one hexagram I received when checking it, the text is > derived > > > from the Wilhelm/Baynes version. This particular abridgement of the W/B > was > > > widely distributed as "/usr/games/ching" in early versions on the UNIX > > > operating system. > > > > > > All the best, > > > > > > Rhett > > > > > > > > > >does anyone know what translation is used > > > >on 'eric's i ching" page? > > > >http://www.homebrew.net/ching > > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > > Do You Yahoo!? > > Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. > > http://im.yahoo.com > > > > > > ===== > > To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org > > from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. > > > > ===== > To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org > from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. From owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Sat Mar 18 12:59:02 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA04971 for hexagram-8-outgoing; Sat, 18 Mar 2000 12:59:02 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: apocalypse.org: majordom set sender to owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org using -f Received: from fw.iris.edu (fw.iris.edu [198.77.109.66]) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA04962 for ; Sat, 18 Mar 2000 12:59:02 -0500 Received: from [192.35.78.201] (dmac201.iris.edu [192.35.78.201]) by fw.iris.edu (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id NAA23421 for ; Sat, 18 Mar 2000 13:00:06 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <20000318054414.22437.qmail@web1610.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 18 Mar 2000 07:52:51 -0500 To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org From: "Dr R. Butler" Subject: Re: HEX8: eric's i ching Sender: owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Hi Diane, The nice thing about this particular abridgement of W/B is just that, the commentary is left out. Rhett >hi rhett, thanks for the info. i'm surprised >it is wilhelm/baynes, as i didn't really like >that translation when i first became interested in the i ching. but, i've >changed! >this eric never finished his homepage, but >i'm sure glad that i ching is still on the >net! thanks again, diane >~~~~~~~ >--- "Dr R. Butler" wrote: >> Hi Diane, >> >> Based on the one hexagram I received when checking it, the text is derived >> from the Wilhelm/Baynes version. This particular abridgement of the W/B was >> widely distributed as "/usr/games/ching" in early versions on the UNIX >> operating system. >> >> All the best, >> >> Rhett >> >> >> >does anyone know what translation is used >> >on 'eric's i ching" page? >> >http://www.homebrew.net/ching >> > >__________________________________________________ >Do You Yahoo!? >Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. >http://im.yahoo.com > > >===== >To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org >from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. From owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Sat Mar 18 12:59:04 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA04977 for hexagram-8-outgoing; Sat, 18 Mar 2000 12:59:04 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: apocalypse.org: majordom set sender to owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org using -f Received: from fw.iris.edu (fw.iris.edu [198.77.109.66]) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA04973 for ; Sat, 18 Mar 2000 12:59:03 -0500 Received: from [192.35.78.201] (dmac201.iris.edu [192.35.78.201]) by fw.iris.edu (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id NAA23424 for ; Sat, 18 Mar 2000 13:00:08 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 18 Mar 2000 12:25:22 -0500 To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org From: "Dr R. Butler" Subject: HEX8: mandate of heaven = Yi ? Sender: owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Hi All, Chronologies of the Zhou indicate that their dynasty is dated not to their conquest of the Shang, but rather about 12 years earlier, when King Wen was acknowledged to have the "mandate of heaven" (tianming). This event apparently occurred shortly after his release from imprisonment at Youli. It is legendary that King Wen [Wen literally mean Literary] devised the Yi while imprisoned at Youli. I submit an idea I have been thinking about for some time. When Wen left Youli with the Yi, he shared it with his Zhou kinsmen, the Many Lords. The Shang are known for divination by tortoise shell; and a military campaign against the Shang, who had recourse to tortoise, may have seemed to be challenging heaven's authority at the time. The Yi was something new, it was easy, and it didn't require a tortoise. Yet in the eyes of those who experienced it, it may have been seen as a gift from heaven. It had come to King Wen, therefore King Wen had heaven's mandate. Hence, the bestowal of heaven's mandate was King Wen's creation of the Yi. Any thoughts? Rhett Reference: Edward L. Shaughnessy Sources of Western Zhou History: Inscribed Bronze Vessels University of California Press, 1991 ISBN 0-520-07028-3 ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. From owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Sat Mar 18 13:57:32 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA08814 for hexagram-8-outgoing; Sat, 18 Mar 2000 13:57:32 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: apocalypse.org: majordom set sender to owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org using -f Received: from wave.coastnet.com (wave.coastnet.com [206.87.35.216]) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id NAA08810 for ; Sat, 18 Mar 2000 13:57:31 -0500 Received: (qmail 2221 invoked from network); 18 Mar 2000 18:58:36 -0000 Received: from d140.coastnet.com (HELO dlesper) (206.87.35.150) by wave.coastnet.com with SMTP; 18 Mar 2000 18:58:36 -0000 Message-ID: <006201bf910b$2c5810e0$582357ce@dlesper> From: "dlesper or cathbell" To: Subject: HEX8: i ching and tai chi Date: Sat, 18 Mar 2000 10:52:27 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_005D_01BF90C8.0D14F740" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_005D_01BF90C8.0D14F740 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable A few months ago I joined our local Taoist Tai Chi society. We've = recently completed the basic set, and I was playing around with the = numberings of the moves the other day.=20 I feel that if a Tai Chi form calls itself Taoist, then there may be a = numerological connection in some form between itself and the I Ching. So = far I haven't discovered anything, but I'll continue searching. Has anyone else had a similar thought? Any experience? Regards, Darren ------=_NextPart_000_005D_01BF90C8.0D14F740 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
A few months ago I joined our local Taoist = Tai Chi=20 society. We've recently completed the basic set, and I was playing = around with=20 the numberings of the moves the other day.
 
I feel that if a Tai Chi form calls itself = Taoist, then=20 there may be a numerological connection in some form between itself and = the I=20 Ching. So far I haven't discovered anything, but I'll continue=20 searching.
 
Has anyone else had a similar thought? Any experience?
 
Regards,
Darren
 
------=_NextPart_000_005D_01BF90C8.0D14F740-- ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. From owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Sat Mar 18 15:09:17 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA12881 for hexagram-8-outgoing; Sat, 18 Mar 2000 15:09:17 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: apocalypse.org: majordom set sender to owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org using -f Received: from smarthost-2.mail.telinco.net (smarthost-2.mail.telinco.net [212.1.128.91]) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA12877 for ; Sat, 18 Mar 2000 15:09:16 -0500 Received: from ppp-3-211.cvx4.telinco.net ([212.1.150.211] helo=localhost) by smarthost-2.mail.telinco.net with smtp (Exim 3.02 #4) id 12WPYE-000DJ7-00; Sat, 18 Mar 2000 20:10:22 +0000 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000318201137.007c3520@mail.telinco.co.uk> X-Sender: tfi015829@mail.telinco.co.uk X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Sat, 18 Mar 2000 20:11:37 +0000 To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org, From: Andreas Schoter Subject: Re: HEX8: i ching and tai chi In-Reply-To: <006201bf910b$2c5810e0$582357ce@dlesper> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Hi Darren, At 10:52 18/03/00 -0800, dlesper or cathbell wrote: > A few months ago I joined our local Taoist Tai Chi society. We've >recently completed the basic set, and I was playing around with the >numberings of the moves the other day. I feel that if a Tai Chi form >calls itself Taoist, then there may be a numerological connection in some >form between itself and the I Ching. Historically, whether Taiji is a taoist art is open to debate. Although most styles would say that it was (for example, Wu style, the style I practice traces its origin back to the taoist Chang San Feng) there is some disagreement; Chen style, which many people now acknowledge is the original style from which others developed is not particularly taoist. That said, many of the principles within the art certainly are taoist. If you're interested in a correlation between the Taiji forms and the Yi then you should find yourself a copy of Da Liu's "Tai Chi Chuan and I Ching". The form he uses is essentialy a Yang style form and he provides a gua for each move. >So far I haven't discovered anything, >but I'll continue searching. Has anyone else had a similar thought? Any >experience? In the style I practice, originally from the Wu family, via Cheng Tin Hung in Hong Kong, we don't have a gua for each move. However, we have eight basic "powers" from which all postures and applications can be derived. Each of these powers is associated with one of the trigrams. Specifically: Peng - an upward force - chien, heaven. Li - a sideways diversion - kun, earth. Tsai - a forward thrust - k'an, water. On - a downward force - li, fire. Tsoi - uprooting - sun, wind. Lit - spiralling - chen, lighting. Tsou - use of power through the torso - tui, marsh. Kou - use of the elbow - ken, mountain. Of course, the obvious martial art to check out if you're specifically interested in connections with the Yi is Bagua. All the Best Andreas ____________________________________________________________________________ Five Winds Tai Chi Chuan http://www.weft.telinco.co.uk/taiji mailto:five-winds@telinco.co.uk ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. From owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Sat Mar 18 21:24:49 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id VAA28828 for hexagram-8-outgoing; Sat, 18 Mar 2000 21:24:49 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: apocalypse.org: majordom set sender to owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org using -f Received: from imo-d05.mx.aol.com (imo-d05.mx.aol.com [205.188.157.37]) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA28824 for ; Sat, 18 Mar 2000 21:24:48 -0500 From: Autorbis@aol.com Received: from Autorbis@aol.com by imo-d05.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v25.3.) id h.c0.20272bd (4008) for ; Sat, 18 Mar 2000 21:25:21 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: Date: Sat, 18 Mar 2000 21:25:21 EST Subject: Re: HEX8: mandate of heaven = Yi ? To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0.i for Windows sub 85 Sender: owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Hi Rhett, << Hi All, Chronologies of the Zhou indicate that their dynasty is dated not to their conquest of the Shang, but rather about 12 years earlier, when King Wen was acknowledged to have the "mandate of heaven" (tianming). This event apparently occurred shortly after his release from imprisonment at Youli. It is legendary that King Wen [Wen literally mean Literary] devised the Yi while imprisoned at Youli. I submit an idea I have been thinking about for some time. When Wen left Youli with the Yi, he shared it with his Zhou kinsmen, the Many Lords. The Shang are known for divination by tortoise shell; and a military campaign against the Shang, who had recourse to tortoise, may have seemed to be challenging heaven's authority at the time. The Yi was something new, it was easy, and it didn't require a tortoise. Yet in the eyes of those who experienced it, it may have been seen as a gift from heaven. It had come to King Wen, therefore King Wen had heaven's mandate. Hence, the bestowal of heaven's mandate was King Wen's creation of the Yi. Any thoughts? Rhett >> I think, it was Wu, after the death of Wen, who did win against the Shang. And it was the Duke of Chou, who is credited to have written the greater part of I-Ching. The essential thing about King Wen was, that he reigned rather long (about 50 years). So it was difficult to King Wu and the Duke of Chou to overcome the "shadow of the father". And it was normal, that this long-reigning father was credited with "having invented with something". I think, the Duke of Chou as author is much more probable than King Wen. After Wu's death he was a sort of chancellor and educator of the new young king. As an educator he had a rather good chance to be active as a man of literature (which mostly kings are not, as history proves; there are only few writing kings - the "first sons" become rulers and the second and third have a good chance to become intellectual - bishop, pope or something similar; and the people in the second row become the writers). That the Duke of Chou embedded teachings of his father (= King Wen) in the text, looks plausible to me. Somehow he probably had some talking with him. Anyway, the 64 "names" of hexagrams, which are credited to King Wen, are the most unstable part of the text, as the Mawangdui proves (about 30 names are different there). And the head lines of the hexagrams (also credited to Wen) is the most stupid part of the text, definitely another style than the line text, full of repeatings, rather unclear in their meaning. What I could imagine as "historical true": There was a stupid, rather mechanistical reading of oracles in the style of I-Ching before the win of Chou against the Shang. Probably it was common for the Western part of China, whereas the better-living people in the east of China prefered the cultural high-standing tortoise-ritual. The duke of Chou transformed it and gave it a little more elegance. As the Chou were new kings after conquering the Shang (and barbarians in the West), they naturally became in the course of time a little "educated" by the cultural high-standing Shang of the West, with whom they mixed. When the Duke of Chou transformed the older I-Ching, he didn't feel strong enough to change the older and longer existing divination tradition totally. So he took names and head-lines of older sources (which were not necessarily worked out by his father, but might have been believed by his father, who eventually had influenced his son to "believe" in the same way). However, in the line-text he could develop a little more phantasy and creativity. Although this - in the literary sense - is also a "poor" and primitive text (unbelievable poor in the comparition to Homers Ilias and its possibilities of expression, which is of a similar "early" time), it shows much "more" content than this headline stuff. The success of the I-Ching didn't depend on its literary qualities, but on the fact, that its inventors became historically rather successful men. The Chou reigned 800 years about China, that's the I-Ching-success. Nobody would know Romulus and Remus, when the Roman Empire would be missing in history. The Bible wouldn't be a bestseller without King David. Without the victory of Marathon Homer would be unknown. Without the Chou the I-Ching wouldn't exist anymore. Probably then there would be another important book :-) ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. From owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Sat Mar 18 23:18:38 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA31787 for hexagram-8-outgoing; Sat, 18 Mar 2000 23:18:38 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: apocalypse.org: majordom set sender to owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org using -f Received: from tha.express-news.net (admin.express-news.net [204.57.68.22]) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA31783 for ; Sat, 18 Mar 2000 23:18:37 -0500 Received: from newmicronpc ([204.57.69.101]) by tha.express-news.net (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-60526U7500L4800S0V35) with SMTP id net for ; Sat, 18 Mar 2000 22:19:36 -0600 Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.20000318221123.007af680@express-news.net> X-Sender: omei@express-news.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Sat, 18 Mar 2000 22:11:23 -0600 To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org From: omei shan Subject: Re: HEX8: i ching and tai chi In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20000318201137.007c3520@mail.telinco.co.uk> References: <006201bf910b$2c5810e0$582357ce@dlesper> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org My two cents on an I Ching/Tai Chi Chuan connection. According to my former instructor, there are five major styles of instruction in China: - Shao Lin, which specialized in animal-based fighting styles - Hai Nam, which developed the use of fishing implements as fighting tools to a very high degree. According to more than one legend, the Hai Nam eventually evolved into the Ninja. - Fu Kien. Short, straight, direct. Wing Chun is the best example of a Fu Kien style. - Wu Dong specialized in coiling, spiraling movements of the spine. Tai Chi Chuan is part of the Wu Dong school. - Omei specializes in the analysis of human-based movements. Its forte is the I Ching and Baguazhang. So, I guess this is a round-about way of saying that Tai Chi Chuan and the I Ching probably don't derive from the same source (according to whichever legends your school subscribes), but that doesn't mean one cannot use the I Ching to understand Tai Chi. Monica At 08:11 PM 03/18/2000 +0000, you wrote: >Hi Darren, > >At 10:52 18/03/00 -0800, dlesper or cathbell wrote: >> A few months ago I joined our local Taoist Tai Chi society. We've >>recently completed the basic set, and I was playing around with the >>numberings of the moves the other day. I feel that if a Tai Chi form >>calls itself Taoist, then there may be a numerological connection in some >>form between itself and the I Ching. > >Historically, whether Taiji is a taoist art is open to debate. Although >most styles would say that it was (for example, Wu style, the style I >practice traces its origin back to the taoist Chang San Feng) there is some >disagreement; Chen style, which many people now acknowledge is the original >style from which others developed is not particularly taoist. > >That said, many of the principles within the art certainly are taoist. > >If you're interested in a correlation between the Taiji forms and the Yi >then you should find yourself a copy of Da Liu's "Tai Chi Chuan and I >Ching". The form he uses is essentialy a Yang style form and he provides a >gua for each move. > >>So far I haven't discovered anything, >>but I'll continue searching. Has anyone else had a similar thought? Any >>experience? > >In the style I practice, originally from the Wu family, via Cheng Tin Hung >in Hong Kong, we don't have a gua for each move. However, we have eight >basic "powers" from which all postures and applications can be derived. >Each of these powers is associated with one of the trigrams. > >Specifically: > >Peng - an upward force - chien, heaven. >Li - a sideways diversion - kun, earth. >Tsai - a forward thrust - k'an, water. >On - a downward force - li, fire. >Tsoi - uprooting - sun, wind. >Lit - spiralling - chen, lighting. >Tsou - use of power through the torso - tui, marsh. >Kou - use of the elbow - ken, mountain. > >Of course, the obvious martial art to check out if you're specifically >interested in connections with the Yi is Bagua. > >All the Best > >Andreas > >____________________________________________________________________________ >Five Winds Tai Chi Chuan >http://www.weft.telinco.co.uk/taiji >mailto:five-winds@telinco.co.uk > > >===== >To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org >from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. > ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. From owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Sun Mar 19 00:24:25 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA01606 for hexagram-8-outgoing; Sun, 19 Mar 2000 00:24:25 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: apocalypse.org: majordom set sender to owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org using -f Received: from srv2.newsite.com.br (root@srv2.fns.newsite.com.br [200.194.232.2]) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA01601 for ; Sun, 19 Mar 2000 00:24:21 -0500 Received: from jorge (res-001.tr.fns.newsite.com.br [200.194.233.66]) by srv2.newsite.com.br (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id CAA01147 for ; Sun, 19 Mar 2000 02:31:59 -0300 Message-ID: <002e01bf9163$95825640$0200a8c0@jorge.newsite> From: "Jorge" To: Subject: Re: HEX8: mandate of heaven = Yi ? Date: Sun, 19 Mar 2000 02:25:46 -0300 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Hi, Lothar I think I have to desagree with you. My opinion is that the Yi Jing is still alive between us because it works as an oracle. Many generations of people tried it and founded that it worked, so they valued it, they studied it and so it was not forgotten, independently of its literary qualities (always a problem for the readers, being or not chinese) or historical background. Jorge Vulibrun Florianopolis, Brasil jorgevul@newsite.com.br -----Mensagem original----- De: Autorbis@aol.com Para: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Data: Sábado, 18 de Março de 2000 23:37 Assunto: Re: HEX8: mandate of heaven = Yi ? >Hi Rhett, > ><< Hi All, > > Chronologies of the Zhou indicate that their dynasty is dated not to their > conquest of the Shang, but rather about 12 years earlier, when King Wen was > acknowledged to have the "mandate of heaven" (tianming). This event > apparently occurred shortly after his release from imprisonment at Youli. > It is legendary that King Wen [Wen literally mean Literary] devised the Yi > while imprisoned at Youli. > > I submit an idea I have been thinking about for some time. When Wen left > Youli with the Yi, he shared it with his Zhou kinsmen, the Many Lords. The > Shang are known for divination by tortoise shell; and a military campaign > against the Shang, who had recourse to tortoise, may have seemed to be > challenging heaven's authority at the time. The Yi was something new, it > was easy, and it didn't require a tortoise. Yet in the eyes of those who > experienced it, it may have been seen as a gift from heaven. It had come to > King Wen, therefore King Wen had heaven's mandate. Hence, the bestowal of > heaven's mandate was King Wen's creation of the Yi. > > Any thoughts? > > Rhett >> > >I think, it was Wu, after the death of Wen, who did win against the Shang. >And it was the Duke of Chou, who is credited to have written the greater part >of I-Ching. >The essential thing about King Wen was, that he reigned rather long (about 50 >years). So it was difficult to King Wu and the Duke of Chou to overcome the >"shadow of the father". And it was normal, that this long-reigning father was >credited with "having invented with something". >I think, the Duke of Chou as author is much more probable than King Wen. >After Wu's death he was a sort of chancellor and educator of the new young >king. As an educator he had a rather good chance to be active as a man of >literature (which mostly kings are not, as history proves; there are only few >writing kings - the "first sons" become rulers and the second and third have >a good chance to become intellectual - bishop, pope or something similar; and >the people in the second row become the writers). That the Duke of Chou >embedded teachings of his father (= King Wen) in the text, looks plausible to >me. Somehow he probably had some talking with him. Anyway, the 64 "names" of >hexagrams, which are credited to King Wen, are the most unstable part of the >text, as the Mawangdui proves (about 30 names are different there). >And the head lines of the hexagrams (also credited to Wen) is the most stupid >part of the text, definitely another style than the line text, full of >repeatings, rather unclear in their meaning. > >What I could imagine as "historical true": There was a stupid, rather >mechanistical reading of oracles in the style of I-Ching before the win of >Chou against the Shang. Probably it was common for the Western part of China, >whereas the better-living people in the east of China prefered the cultural >high-standing tortoise-ritual. The duke of Chou transformed it and gave it a >little more elegance. As the Chou were new kings after conquering the Shang >(and barbarians in the West), they naturally became in the course of time a >little "educated" by the cultural high-standing Shang of the West, with whom >they mixed. >When the Duke of Chou transformed the older I-Ching, he didn't feel strong >enough to change the older and longer existing divination tradition totally. >So he took names and head-lines of older sources (which were not necessarily >worked out by his father, but might have been believed by his father, who >eventually had influenced his son to "believe" in the same way). However, in >the line-text he could develop a little more phantasy and creativity. >Although this - in the literary sense - is also a "poor" and primitive text >(unbelievable poor in the comparition to Homers Ilias and its possibilities >of expression, which is of a similar "early" time), it shows much "more" >content than this headline stuff. > >The success of the I-Ching didn't depend on its literary qualities, but on >the fact, that its inventors became historically rather successful men. The >Chou reigned 800 years about China, that's the I-Ching-success. >Nobody would know Romulus and Remus, when the Roman Empire would be missing >in history. >The Bible wouldn't be a bestseller without King David. >Without the victory of Marathon Homer would be unknown. >Without the Chou the I-Ching wouldn't exist anymore. Probably then there >would be another important book :-) > > >===== >To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org >from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. > ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. From owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Sun Mar 19 01:52:33 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA03965 for hexagram-8-outgoing; Sun, 19 Mar 2000 01:52:33 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: apocalypse.org: majordom set sender to owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org using -f Received: from barra.domain.com.br (barra.domain.com.br [200.196.128.5]) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA03961 for ; Sun, 19 Mar 2000 01:52:30 -0500 Received: from pentium-133 (200.188.61.218) by barra.domain.com.br (NPlex 4.5.042) id 38BFCE1A00113582 for hexagram-8@apocalypse.org; Sun, 19 Mar 2000 03:56:17 -0300 Message-ID: <000501bf916f$eb5e81e0$da3dbcc8@pentium-133> From: "Ely Britto" To: Subject: Re: HEX8: mandate of heaven = Yi ? Date: Sun, 19 Mar 2000 03:35:12 -0300 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org >I submit an idea I have been thinking about for some time. When Wen left >Youli with the Yi, he shared it with his Zhou kinsmen, the Many Lords. The >Shang are known for divination by tortoise shell; and a military campaign >against the Shang, who had recourse to tortoise, may have seemed to be >challenging heaven's authority at the time. The Yi was something new, it >was easy, and it didn't require a tortoise. Yet in the eyes of those who >experienced it, it may have been seen as a gift from heaven. It had come to >King Wen, therefore King Wen had heaven's mandate. Hence, the bestowal of >heaven's mandate was King Wen's creation of the Yi. Hi Rhett! Nice thoughts! I think it could be, King Wen seems to be a very special King for his wisdom and benevolence. In ancient times, not only in China, Kings were considered to be the son's of God or the voice of Heaven. I think its possible that the bestowal of heaven's mandate was King Wen's creation of the Yi. Do you think this tittle could means that he got the inspiration from heaven or that the I Ching is talking about the power of heaven? About history: - I prefer to accept the oral transmission history, that states that he created the sequence and the hexagrams and his son the text of the lines. How can we surely know what happened 3000 years ago if sometimes we are not able to affirm what happened 50 years ago in our history? We have many examples of people manipulating historical datas and make they serve their interest and believes in the serious modern history , So I prefer to stay with the words of the wise men from the past. Its nice to see all the interesting things synologues discover about the I Ching, but for me the interest is more in how they come to their conclusion then to change my ideas about the I Ching. The system is here, so let's gets the benefits we can get from it. Love Ely ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. From owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Sun Mar 19 07:58:35 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id HAA10055 for hexagram-8-outgoing; Sun, 19 Mar 2000 07:58:35 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: apocalypse.org: majordom set sender to owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org using -f Received: from imo15.mx.aol.com (imo15.mx.aol.com [152.163.225.5]) by apo