From owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Sat Apr 1 04:58:41 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id EAA12059 for hexagram-8-outgoing; Sat, 1 Apr 2000 04:58:41 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: apocalypse.org: majordom set sender to owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org using -f Received: from mta2.snfc21.pbi.net (mta2.snfc21.pbi.net [206.13.28.123]) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id EAA12055 for ; Sat, 1 Apr 2000 04:58:39 -0500 Received: from pacbell.net ([207.215.85.235]) by mta2.snfc21.pbi.net (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.2000.01.05.12.18.p9) with ESMTP id <0FSC00IUG158BC@mta2.snfc21.pbi.net> for hexagram-8@apocalypse.org; Sat, 1 Apr 2000 02:00:45 -0800 (PST) Date: Sat, 01 Apr 2000 01:59:44 -0800 From: Ray Langley Subject: Re: HEX8: Monica out for a few days To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Message-id: <38E5C890.D71FCA2C@pacbell.net> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en] (Win98; U) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Accept-Language: en References: <3.0.3.32.20000331144115.007ada50@express-news.net> <3.0.3.32.20000331221324.007adbc0@express-news.net> Sender: owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org > Hey everybody! You won't be hearing from me for a few days - Doug and I > are going to west Texas for a few days. We're going to check out the > "Marfa Mystery Lights," the observatory, Ft. Davis State Park, etc. I've > never been to West Texas, so we'll be taking plenty of pictures. > Monica Monica, have a great time. But, you will only need to take ONE picture. West Texas all looks the same. It is miles and miles of miles and miles. :-) -- Warmest Regards, Ray Have Luo Pan, Will Travel! ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. From owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Sat Apr 1 10:31:33 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA24089 for hexagram-8-outgoing; Sat, 1 Apr 2000 10:31:33 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: apocalypse.org: majordom set sender to owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org using -f Received: from fw.iris.edu (fw.iris.edu [198.77.109.66]) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA24085 for ; Sat, 1 Apr 2000 10:31:32 -0500 Received: from [192.35.78.202] (dmac202.iris.edu [192.35.78.202]) by fw.iris.edu (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id KAA27521 for ; Sat, 1 Apr 2000 10:33:54 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 1 Apr 2000 10:32:13 -0500 To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org From: "Dr R. Butler" Subject: HEX8: Sender: owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org >> A lot of the interpretation of these particular passages (and others) >> depends on how you interpret what is meant by the character >> -- > The character appears throughout the Yi, notably in the Name and text of Hex61, and has been discussed in relation to Hex9, Line 4. Kunst has translated this as "capture". If you looks at Kunst's dissertation, he states in the very first sentences of his section on : "Fu' (GSR 1233a *p'iug) is the protograph for fu' (GSR1233d *p'iug) in most, possibly, all of the 42 occurrences of the graph in the text. It has the common OC meaning of fu' , 'capture in war ( prisoners or booty),' or the normalized counterpart, 'that which is captured, captive, booty.' " [since most don't have Chinese characters in their email, and we can't use GIF's, we must use word pictures ;-] Here is the character under discussion and is a single character combined from man on the left and on the right. That means "capture" is is well noted in Schuessler's "A Dictionary of Early Zhou Chinese", where specific instances of this usage in the YiZhouShu (a text of early Western Zhou, perhaps contemporaneous with the Yi) are clear. However, the usage of for "to trust, have confidence in, verify" is not limited to the Yi, but also is evident in contemporaneous usage in the Books of History and Poetry (see Schuessler's Dictionary). The essence of Kunst's discourse is that if we replace with in the text, the translation as capture follows. This is a premise. Should it be accepted? Many years ago when I first started studying the chinese characters of the Yi to figure out what they meant, I was interested in . Like all chinese characters, it is a picture. is a picture of a hand above the head of a child. Helmut Wilhelm followed the Shuowen [circa 200AD] definition of "(brooding) eggs; derived from 'claw' and 'child' in his book. It was never clear to me how this became, "sincere", "trustworthy", "have confidence in", or "verify". However, when I was holding my own daughter just after she was born, cradling her in my arms, holding her head with my hand, I recognized the inner meaning of . I saw it further as friends came over to see her, and they would place a hand and caress her softly on her head. Such trust! Later, I pondered Kunst's work. There is much in Kunst's dissertation I enjoy and admire. Yet his own discourse on does not resonate with me. He has chosen to gloss as . Yet, there are some beautiful examples of on bronzes, pottery, and oracle bones from a Shang tomb (circa 1300BC) showing the context of of a child in a trusting environment. The pictures (and there are dozens of them) in Noel Barnard's "The Study of Clan-Sign Inscriptions of Shang" article in "Studies of Shang Archeology" show a child by a woman or between two women, with a hand or frond-shape over the child. In these images one can see an etymological foundation for that is quite separate from the militaristics tone of . Rhett ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. From owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Sat Apr 1 10:34:58 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA24787 for hexagram-8-outgoing; Sat, 1 Apr 2000 10:34:58 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: apocalypse.org: majordom set sender to owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org using -f Received: from web109.yahoomail.com (web109.yahoomail.com [205.180.60.76]) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id KAA24782 for ; Sat, 1 Apr 2000 10:34:57 -0500 Received: (qmail 19314 invoked by uid 60001); 1 Apr 2000 15:37:35 -0000 Message-ID: <20000401153735.19313.qmail@web109.yahoomail.com> Received: from [38.27.174.146] by web109.yahoomail.com; Sat, 01 Apr 2000 07:37:35 PST Date: Sat, 1 Apr 2000 07:37:35 -0800 (PST) From: Stephen Field Subject: Re: HEX8: Monica out for a few days To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org I know you're kidding, Ray. But be careful--I'm from West Texas, and we're pretty sensitive about our roots. Not that we'd ever move back there, mind you. --- Ray Langley wrote: > > Hey everybody! You won't be hearing from me for a > few days - Doug and I > > are going to west Texas for a few days. We're > going to check out the > > "Marfa Mystery Lights," the observatory, Ft. > Davis State Park, etc. I've > > never been to West Texas, so we'll be taking > plenty of pictures. > > Monica > > Monica, have a great time. But, you will only need > to take ONE > picture. West Texas all looks the same. It is miles > and miles of > miles and miles. :-) > -- > Warmest Regards, Ray > Have Luo Pan, Will Travel! > > > ===== > To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to > majordomo@apocalypse.org > from the address subscribed, containing just the > word UNSUBSCRIBE. > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. From owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Sun Apr 2 12:51:16 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA24493 for hexagram-8-outgoing; Sun, 2 Apr 2000 12:51:16 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: apocalypse.org: majordom set sender to owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org using -f Received: from imo20.mx.aol.com (imo20.mx.aol.com [152.163.225.10]) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA24489 for ; Sun, 2 Apr 2000 12:51:15 -0400 From: Autorbis@aol.com Received: from Autorbis@aol.com by imo20.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v25.3.) id h.c6.35c5f84 (4004) for ; Sun, 2 Apr 2000 12:53:36 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: Date: Sun, 2 Apr 2000 12:53:36 EDT Subject: Re: HEX8: Re: Ibn Gabirol and Neoplatonists To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" X-Mailer: AOL 3.0.i for Windows sub 85 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by apocalypse.org id MAA24490 Sender: owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Hi Frank, I had a look at the Sabian page. As I saw, the central theme seems to be based on a channelling-process in the 20ies, in which the 360 degrees of the Zodiac got a "new", "channeled" meaning. A similar try was done by Franz Bardon in a rather complex way around the same time. It appeared in "Die Praxis der magischen Evokation", Hermann Bauer Verlag, Freiburg, 1956. In a special chapter: "Die 360 Vorsteher der Erdgürtelzone" he gives the names of the "Vorsteher" and their special qualities. 13° Aries, that's today, as an example, is called Opilon, and can help the magician in all operations, either by himself or by his servants. He is especially good in attaining knowledge in practical matters. Bardon claimed, that he is able to evocate all these "Vorsteher", also 24 others of the same region, also 28 rulers of the sphere of the moon, also 72 rulers of the mercury-sphere, 90 of the venus, 45 of the sun, 36 of the mars, 12 of the Jupiter and 49 of the saturn. Very impressive. Also he gives magical signs (paintings), by which they could be evocated. Personally I'm a little sceptical about the worth of such modern tries. I'm interested in historical systems of older age ... Well, I also detected, that the Sabians has a special love for Ibn Gabirol. I was not lucky in exploring, what these magical squares are, that you noted. Generally I think, that, if already the Sepher Yetzirah constituted a similarity of system between Jewish ideas and I-Ching, a reappearance of similarity between I-Ching and teachings of Ibn Gabirol shouldn't surprize too much. In that case he was just following older traditions, he's not the origin of this similarity. It's also not surprizing, that there are similarities between Kabbala and Tarot on one side and I-Ching on the other side: Tarot and Kabbala followed both in some details the older source of Sepher Yetzirah. Lothar ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. From owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Sun Apr 2 14:36:28 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA00986 for hexagram-8-outgoing; Sun, 2 Apr 2000 14:36:28 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: apocalypse.org: majordom set sender to owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org using -f Received: from imo24.mx.aol.com (imo24.mx.aol.com [152.163.225.68]) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA00982 for ; Sun, 2 Apr 2000 14:36:27 -0400 From: FKegan@aol.com Received: from FKegan@aol.com by imo24.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v25.3.) id h.cb.3c406f8 (4413) for ; Sun, 2 Apr 2000 14:38:45 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: Date: Sun, 2 Apr 2000 14:38:45 EDT Subject: HEX8: Re: First use doctrine To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Windows sub 100 Sender: owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Hi Lothar, I am intrigued by your reliance upon the first use or older traditions. For current publication and academic stuff, I well understand the interest in being able to claim personal priority, but I can only see the personal ego interest in such stuff. The history of technology seems to indicate that when there is a new breakthrough insight, it is the beginning not the highpoint of development for about 100 years (pretty much the lifetime of the original researchers and those trained directly by them). Then things tail off as hands-on understanding disappears and what remains becomes ritual and magic until some later time when a similar breakthrough insight is made and those researchers notice that under the ritual and legend is a very similar understanding. By the way, what year or century is the Sepher Yetzirah? As for the Sabian Insights (which fit well the traditional pattern of being new breakthroughs that allow a hands on understanding of what was meant by the original insights (and which are now pretty well on to the magic and legend phase with most of the traditional Sabian Students) they are instructive for their example about how these things get worked out. Marc Jones himself distrusted his Sabian Symbols greatly, and the formal I find most insightful, called the mimeo version, he specifically asked not to be used since he found them uncomfortable. OTOH, what makes one uncomfortable is often the stark truth. As a detail, Ibn Gabirol was a poet of the mid-11th century who ran more on his personal intuition than following any tradition. The Ibn Gabirol Magic Squares are actually the creation of Marc Jones, they have no direct connection to Ibn Gabirol. And their interest is more as an analogy or example of a system where a metaphysical grid is established and concepts placed in that matrix. It's relevance to the I Ching is that it is an example of using sequence in two dimensions, that is fixed sets in two independent perspectives which then fix an individual concept (or hexagram name) in position. There is always the nagging question with any of our correlations whether there is some actual relationship to the fundamental structure or merely a general symmetry which is being reflected. I find that especially relevant with Monica's use of Cartesian axes in various orientations with Western logical opposites applied to the trigrams. They certainly have no place in Chinese metaphysics, though as a well-crafted system reflecting elegant patterns, the sequence of hexagrams would be expected to return symmetrical results in all sorts of irrelevant perspectives. The ancient generally has only the advantage of being distant and thus seen only in abstract idealism. What is delightful about Marc Jones' work is that it is recent enough to actually see the process, flaws as well as brilliance, and thus it makes a good model for our own insights. Frank ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. From owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Sun Apr 2 19:56:24 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id TAA26308 for hexagram-8-outgoing; Sun, 2 Apr 2000 19:56:24 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: apocalypse.org: majordom set sender to owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org using -f Received: from imo-d07.mx.aol.com (imo-d07.mx.aol.com [205.188.157.39]) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA26304 for ; Sun, 2 Apr 2000 19:56:23 -0400 From: Autorbis@aol.com Received: from Autorbis@aol.com by imo-d07.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v25.3.) id h.7b.2a5c15f (3871) for ; Sun, 2 Apr 2000 19:58:48 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <7b.2a5c15f.261938b7@aol.com> Date: Sun, 2 Apr 2000 19:58:47 EDT Subject: Re: HEX8: Re: First use doctrine To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0.i for Windows sub 85 Sender: owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Hi Frank, I am intrigued by your reliance upon the first use or older traditions. For current publication and academic stuff, I well understand the interest in being able to claim personal priority, but I can only see the personal ego interest in such stuff. ### :-) well, I think, it has nothing to do with personal ego to ask the question, how things have "really" developed. A hypothesis like "Ibn Gabirol produced something similar to I-Ching" immediately raises the question, if there was something similar to I-Ching near to Ibn Gabirol before the time of Ibn Gabirol. In the case, that one can answer this question with "yes, there was ....", then this source is naturally of great interest, and it is a natural conclusion, that "Ibn Gabirol was - probably - influenced by this source" (much more probable then "Ibn Gabirol had a hidden teacher from China" for instance). As far I do remember, Gerschom Scholem notes, that Gabirol gives somewhere a statement about Sepher Yetzirah, so it looks like a proven fact, that "Inb Gabirol knew about the Sepher Yetzirah". ### The history of technology seems to indicate that when there is a new breakthrough insight, it is the beginning not the highpoint of development for about 100 years (pretty much the lifetime of the original researchers and those trained directly by them). Then things tail off as hands-on understanding disappears and what remains becomes ritual and magic until some later time when a similar breakthrough insight is made and those researchers notice that under the ritual and legend is a very similar understanding. By the way, what year or century is the Sepher Yetzirah? ### The appearance of the Sepher Yetzrah is estimated from 1st - 5th century AD by various scholars. There is one commentary giving relativly clear evidence of its existence around the 6th century, and there is clear evidence by a commentary of Saadiah Gaon, who wrote before Ibn Gabirol. ### Lothar ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. From owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Mon Apr 3 13:27:04 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA11689 for hexagram-8-outgoing; Mon, 3 Apr 2000 13:27:04 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: apocalypse.org: majordom set sender to owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org using -f Received: from imo21.mx.aol.com (imo21.mx.aol.com [152.163.225.65]) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA11685 for ; Mon, 3 Apr 2000 13:27:03 -0400 From: Autorbis@aol.com Received: from Autorbis@aol.com by imo21.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v25.3.) id h.34.3599c2e (5727) for ; Mon, 3 Apr 2000 13:29:30 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <34.3599c2e.261a2efa@aol.com> Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2000 13:29:30 EDT Subject: Re: HEX8: Chinese Calendar(s), was: 13 lunar months To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0.i for Windows sub 85 Sender: owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Hi Ray, thanks for this info, I nearly overlooked it. Well, our "Western" calendar also knows a lot of diverging features, and I wonder, if it looks rather complicated to a Chinese. First, we've a "normal" solar year. Then we've an independant system of week-counting, a rather important structure of our Western world, each accompanied by an ancient god or a planet. Then we've a church-year, which was also of rather big importance in the recent past, together with a day-system, in which each day of the solar year was accompanied by a mysterious person, an holy man or a sage. Then we've a special hour measuring system (24; 60; 60), and in Astrology each of this hours is reigned by a god or planet. Then we've a rather complex astrology with a lot of minor subsystems like palmistry, face-reading, divination by letters-of-name-counting etc.. Then we've a lot of calendar differences in the past with 6 different starts of the year in Europe during the medieval times, then we've a lot of calendar-changes (the Gregorian change for instance), which weren't taken in one day, but took 200 years to become accepted in all European countries. Then we'd the French revolutionary calendar, and we've the Islamic year and the Jewish year. And so on and so on ... For instance the old Greek did use about 400 different names for their 12 monthes (only those, from which we do know, are counted), cause each city seems to have had an own calendar - an unbelievable complexity for a Chinese with the wish to understand Europrean calendar. Cause of this European complexity in this question, I can't imagine, that your info about the Chinese calendar is really complete - there should be much more, if one looks a little more precisely. And there should be some older calendar-systems, from which even the Chinese don't know, that they ever had them. Just taking the fact, that China in its history was not always a united country, one should assume a lot of earlier differences. Greetings Lothar < Hi Lothar, if we include our Western calendar, the Chinese now use three different calendar systems: In the Qing Dynasty, 1741, the first edition was called the "Wan Nian Li". This is a word-for-word translation, meaning 10,000 Year Calendar. Each edition of the "Wan Nian Li" contains somewhat less than 10,000 years. My book shows the years from 1882 - 2031. The Qing Government also issued a yearly edition to correct the inaccurate calculations in the "Wan Nian Li". In 1912, a new government formed, and announced that it was choosing the Gregorian calendar as the standard calendar. At this time, the government issued a new calendar book which it called the People's Republic of China Calendar Book. It still recorded the Chinese Lunar Calendar. After 1953, the Government in mainland China proclaimed that all calendar publishing must conform to the rules set by the calculations of the Purple Mountain Observatory because there were two editions of the calendar in mainland China during that period. One of these two versions said that the 6th lunar month was a "small month" and that the 7th lunar month was a "big month". The other stated just the opposite. Also, in 1989, the Purple Mountain Observatory calculated that the 6th lunar month was a "big month" (30 days), and that month 7 was a "small month" (29 days). But, the Taiwanese edition of the calendar said that the 6th month was small and that the 7th was big. So, be aware that there may be some differences between calendars that are published in mainland China and Taiwan. In olden times, the ancient astronomers devised a very clever method to combine the Chinese Lunar and Solar calendars into a single system. This system is called the 10,000 Year Calendar. The Solar New Year is always on either Feb. 4 or Feb. 5. This date is known as "Li Chun", or Spring Begins. Since the *Lunar New Year* did not begin until Feb 16, 1999, Li Chun occurred in the 12 Lunar Month of *1998*. So, it is not shown on the pages of the 1999 calendar. The first Lunar Month of 1999 runs from 2/16 to 3/17. The first Solar Month of 1999 runs from 2/04 to 3/05. The second Lunar Month of 1999 runs from 3/18 to 4/15. The second Solar Month of 1999 runs from 3/06 to 4/04. The Solar Calendar has 12 months. The Lunar Calendar usually has 12 months, but some years it has a 13th month (leap month). -- Warmest Regards, Ray Have Luo Pan, Will Travel! >> ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. From owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Mon Apr 3 15:16:36 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA21243 for hexagram-8-outgoing; Mon, 3 Apr 2000 15:16:36 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: apocalypse.org: majordom set sender to owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org using -f Received: from psmtp2.dnsg.net (psmtp2.dnsg.net [193.168.128.42]) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id PAA21239 for ; Mon, 3 Apr 2000 15:16:35 -0400 Received: (qmail 16532 invoked from network); 3 Apr 2000 21:19:37 +0200 Received: from frnk-3e3551c1.pool.mediaways.net (HELO metronet.de) (62.53.81.193) by psmtp2.dnsg.net with SMTP; 3 Apr 2000 21:19:37 +0200 Message-ID: <004301bf9d9b$a22b4660$c151353e@de> From: "Marianne.Goeppel" To: References: <34.3599c2e.261a2efa@aol.com> Subject: Re: HEX8: re Calendar Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2000 20:34:13 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Hi, some nice calendar links that might be interesting: http://www.karl-may-stiftung.de/kalender/ewkal.htm http://search.britannica.com/bcom/search/results/1,5843,,00.html?p_query0=ca lendar (+ the Encyclopaedia Britannica is one of my best links in many ways) Marianne -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht----- Von: An: Gesendet: Montag, 3. April 2000 19:29 Betreff: Re: HEX8: Chinese Calendar(s), was: 13 lunar months > > Hi Ray, thanks for this info, I nearly overlooked it. > > Well, our "Western" calendar also knows a lot of diverging features, and I > wonder, if it looks rather complicated to a Chinese. > > First, we've a "normal" solar year. Then we've an independant system of > week-counting, a rather important structure of our Western world, each > accompanied by an ancient god or a planet. Then we've a church-year, which > was also of rather big importance in the recent past, together with a > day-system, in which each day of the solar year was accompanied by a > mysterious person, an holy man or a sage. Then we've a special hour measuring > system (24; 60; 60), and in Astrology each of this hours is reigned by a god > or planet. Then we've a rather complex astrology with a lot of minor > subsystems like palmistry, face-reading, divination by > letters-of-name-counting etc.. > Then we've a lot of calendar differences in the past with 6 different starts > of the year in Europe during the medieval times, then we've a lot of > calendar-changes (the Gregorian change for instance), which weren't taken in > one day, but took 200 years to become accepted in all European countries. > Then we'd the French revolutionary calendar, and we've the Islamic year and > the Jewish year. And so on and so on ... > For instance the old Greek did use about 400 different names for their 12 > monthes (only those, from which we do know, are counted), cause each city > seems to have had an own calendar - an unbelievable complexity for a Chinese > with the wish to understand Europrean calendar. > > Cause of this European complexity in this question, I can't imagine, that > your info about the Chinese calendar is really complete - there should be > much more, if one looks a little more precisely. And there should be some > older calendar-systems, from which even the Chinese don't know, that they > ever had them. > Just taking the fact, that China in its history was not always a united > country, one should assume a lot of earlier differences. > > Greetings > > Lothar > > > < Hi Lothar, if we include our Western calendar, the Chinese now use > three different calendar systems: > > In the Qing Dynasty, 1741, the first edition was called the "Wan Nian > Li". This is a word-for-word translation, meaning 10,000 Year Calendar. > > Each edition of the "Wan Nian Li" contains somewhat less than 10,000 > years. My book shows the years from 1882 - 2031. The Qing Government > also issued a yearly edition to correct the inaccurate calculations > in the "Wan Nian Li". In 1912, a new government formed, and announced > that it was choosing the Gregorian calendar as the standard calendar. > > At this time, the government issued a new calendar book which it called > the People's Republic of China Calendar Book. It still recorded the > Chinese Lunar Calendar. After 1953, the Government in mainland China > proclaimed that all calendar publishing must conform to the rules set > by the calculations of the Purple Mountain Observatory because there > were two editions of the calendar in mainland China during that period. > One of these two versions said that the 6th lunar month was a "small > month" and that the 7th lunar month was a "big month". The other stated > just the opposite. Also, in 1989, the Purple Mountain Observatory > calculated that the 6th lunar month was a "big month" (30 days), and > that month 7 was a "small month" (29 days). But, the Taiwanese edition > of the calendar said that the 6th month was small and that the 7th was > big. > > So, be aware that there may be some differences between calendars that > are published in mainland China and Taiwan. > > In olden times, the ancient astronomers devised a very clever method > to combine the Chinese Lunar and Solar calendars into a single system. > This system is called the 10,000 Year Calendar. > > The Solar New Year is always on either Feb. 4 or Feb. 5. This date > is known as "Li Chun", or Spring Begins. > > Since the *Lunar New Year* did not begin until Feb 16, 1999, Li Chun > occurred in the 12 Lunar Month of *1998*. So, it is not shown on the > pages of the 1999 calendar. > > The first Lunar Month of 1999 runs from 2/16 to 3/17. > The first Solar Month of 1999 runs from 2/04 to 3/05. > > The second Lunar Month of 1999 runs from 3/18 to 4/15. > The second Solar Month of 1999 runs from 3/06 to 4/04. > > The Solar Calendar has 12 months. > > The Lunar Calendar usually has 12 months, but some years it > has a 13th month (leap month). > -- > Warmest Regards, Ray > Have Luo Pan, Will Travel! > >> > > > ===== > To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org > from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. > > ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. From owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Mon Apr 3 20:42:48 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id UAA11694 for hexagram-8-outgoing; Mon, 3 Apr 2000 20:42:48 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: apocalypse.org: majordom set sender to owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org using -f Received: from web111.yahoomail.com (web111.yahoomail.com [205.180.60.81]) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id UAA11690 for ; Mon, 3 Apr 2000 20:42:47 -0400 Received: (qmail 19655 invoked by uid 60001); 4 Apr 2000 00:43:34 -0000 Message-ID: <20000404004334.19651.qmail@web111.yahoomail.com> Received: from [38.27.192.152] by web111.yahoomail.com; Mon, 03 Apr 2000 17:43:34 PDT Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2000 17:43:34 -0700 (PDT) From: Stephen Field Subject: Re: HEX8: To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org --- "Dr R. Butler" wrote: > > Yet, there are some beautiful examples of on > bronzes, pottery, and > oracle bones from a Shang tomb (circa 1300BC) > showing the context of of a > child in a trusting environment. The pictures (and > there are dozens of > them) in Noel Barnard's "The Study of Clan-Sign > Inscriptions of Shang" > article in "Studies of Shang Archeology" show a > child by a woman or between > two women, with a hand or frond-shape over the > child. In these images one > can see an etymological foundation for that is > quite separate from the > militaristics tone of . Actually, the that you see in Noel Barnard's article is not the meaning, "captive" or "trust." It is instead the of "Fu Hao," the (ritual, if not personal) name of the woman buried in the tomb where the bronze items were discovered. The "hao" of "Fu Hao" is composed of a woman and a child, and the is a "broom." Chang Ping-ch'uan, in the article just preceding Barnard's in Studies of Shang Archaeology, speculates that the is that of , "womankind" (a "broom" next to a "woman"), so that the name "Fu Hao" would be something like "Hao, the Consort." __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. From owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Wed Apr 5 18:40:26 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA09027 for hexagram-8-outgoing; Wed, 5 Apr 2000 18:40:26 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: apocalypse.org: majordom set sender to owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org using -f Received: from fw.iris.edu (fw.iris.edu [198.77.109.66]) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA09023 for ; Wed, 5 Apr 2000 18:40:26 -0400 Received: from [192.35.78.201] (dmac201.iris.edu [192.35.78.201]) by fw.iris.edu (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id QAA06097 for ; Wed, 5 Apr 2000 16:26:57 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <20000404004334.19651.qmail@web111.yahoomail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2000 16:25:12 -0400 To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org From: "Dr R. Butler" Subject: Re: HEX8: Sender: owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org >--- "Dr R. Butler" wrote: >> >> Yet, there are some beautiful examples of on >> bronzes, pottery, and >> oracle bones from a Shang tomb (circa 1300BC) >> showing the context of of a >> child in a trusting environment. The pictures (and >> there are dozens of >> them) in Noel Barnard's "The Study of Clan-Sign >> Inscriptions of Shang" >> article in "Studies of Shang Archeology" show a >> child by a woman or between >> two women, with a hand or frond-shape over the >> child. In these images one >> can see an etymological foundation for that is >> quite separate from the >> militaristics tone of . > >Actually, the that you see in Noel Barnard's >article is not the meaning, "captive" or >"trust." It is instead the of "Fu Hao," the >(ritual, if not personal) name of the woman buried in >the tomb where the bronze items were discovered. The >"hao" of "Fu Hao" is composed of a woman and a child, >and the is a "broom." Chang Ping-ch'uan, in the >article just preceding Barnard's in Studies of Shang >Archaeology, speculates that the is that of nyu3>, "womankind" (a "broom" next to a "woman"), so >that the name "Fu Hao" would be something like "Hao, >the Consort." > Hi Stephen, I am glad that there are others that look at such obscure books! The mapping from the inscriptions to modern characters in part depends upon how one parses the elements of the picture. For others in Hex8 without the book at hand, I could perhaps offer a thousand words, but a picture will suffice. In deference to Ron's desire to ascii purity :-o please point your Web browser to http://www.iris.iris.edu/rhett/fu.gif and see for yourself. All the best, Rhett ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. From owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Wed Apr 5 22:39:42 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id WAA30432 for hexagram-8-outgoing; Wed, 5 Apr 2000 22:39:42 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: apocalypse.org: majordom set sender to owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org using -f Received: from imo24.mx.aol.com (imo24.mx.aol.com [152.163.225.68]) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA30428 for ; Wed, 5 Apr 2000 22:39:41 -0400 From: FKegan@aol.com Received: from FKegan@aol.com by imo24.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v25.3.) id h.dc.247d581 (3852) for ; Wed, 5 Apr 2000 22:42:25 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2000 22:42:25 EDT Subject: Re: HEX8: Re: First use doctrine To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Windows sub 100 Sender: owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Hi Lothar, We seem to have miscommunicated a bit. It is not that Ibn Gabirol created anything like the I Ching at all. My comment was that his work actually sums up to one or two sentences at the end of 200+ pages of medieval argument. His insights are clearly those of his person, a poet and military man with deep mystic roots. Nothing at all of any system that could be derived from another in terms of number patterns or the like. The connection to the I Ching would be that hexagram one [Ch'ien], Ibn Gabirol, and by the UN conference of indigenous people's religions of the world all find the root of religious awe is the appreciation of the symbolism connected to water cycle based upon the interaction of geography and Solar celestial mechanics. As to the scholars, they see connections in their texts which have little relation to any actual origin or influence. The fact that volumes are catalogued next to each other in a library may make them seem connected to those who only read the material in that library, but trying to actually understand, duplicate or do parallel work with the insights quickly leads to understanding things aren't quite that simple. The connection I referred to was between Marc Jones' work which he called "The Ibn Gabirol Magic Squares" which relates sequence and philosophical sets to explain and develop concepts. All of this refers to work in metaphysics that has no relation to what was published when or any claim that some set of work was derived from any other. I am aware that such is a major occupation in the History of Philosophy, which is most of what academics know about philosophy. I prefer the view that human knowledge is bounded by the structure of the human mind and all the great insights are probably available equally to folks in any time or place. Tapping into those insights happens on its own schedule and most claims to have discovered something deeper or better is probably only the result of not sufficiently appreciating other discoveries. All of that aside, I still am not clear exactly why you believe the first use was the best and therefore any subsequent work must be derived from it. I am aware that is a widespread belief. I just have never been able to find any reasonable explanation for why that should be so. Frank ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. From owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Thu Apr 6 12:12:17 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA03344 for hexagram-8-outgoing; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 12:12:17 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: apocalypse.org: majordom set sender to owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org using -f Received: from fireserv.cobank.com ([199.197.20.239]) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA03339 for ; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 12:12:16 -0400 Received: from svrdenexch.cobank (exchange [190.120.176.250]) by fireserv.cobank.com (8.8.8+Sun/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA22868 for ; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 10:23:00 -0600 (MDT) Received: by SVRDENEXCH with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) id <21MD0RWH>; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 10:15:19 -0600 Message-ID: From: "Schmidt, Walter." To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Subject: RE: HEX8: Re: First use doctrine Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2000 10:15:18 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org FKegan@aol.com wrote: < The connection to the I Ching would be that hexagram one [Ch'ien], Ibn Gabirol, and by the UN conference of indigenous people's religions of the world all find the root of religious awe is the appreciation of the symbolism connected to water cycle based upon the interaction of geography and Solar celestial mechanics.> huh? I would suggest that the concept in the second paragraph above has direct applicability to the first. Are you sure you're not doing a little Glass Bead Game playing here? ws > -----Original Message----- > From: FKegan@aol.com [SMTP:FKegan@aol.com] > Sent: Wednesday, April 05, 2000 9:42 PM > To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org > Subject: Re: HEX8: Re: First use doctrine > > Hi Lothar, > We seem to have miscommunicated a bit. It is not that Ibn Gabirol > created anything like the I Ching at all. My comment was that his work > actually sums up to one or two sentences at the end of 200+ pages of > medieval > argument. His insights are clearly those of his person, a poet and > military > man with deep mystic roots. Nothing at all of any system that could be > derived from another in terms of number patterns or the like. The > connection > to the I Ching would be that hexagram one [Ch'ien], Ibn Gabirol, and by > the > UN conference of indigenous people's religions of the world all find the > root > of religious awe is the appreciation of the symbolism connected to water > cycle based upon the interaction of geography and Solar celestial > mechanics. > As to the scholars, they see connections in their texts which have > little relation to any actual origin or influence. The fact that volumes > are > catalogued next to each other in a library may make them seem connected to > > those who only read the material in that library, but trying to actually > understand, duplicate or do parallel work with the insights quickly leads > to > understanding things aren't quite that simple. > The connection I referred to was between Marc Jones' work which he > called "The Ibn Gabirol Magic Squares" which relates sequence and > philosophical sets to explain and develop concepts. > All of this refers to work in metaphysics that has no relation to > what > was published when or any claim that some set of work was derived from any > > other. I am aware that such is a major occupation in the History of > Philosophy, which is most of what academics know about philosophy. I > prefer > the view that human knowledge is bounded by the structure of the human > mind > and all the great insights are probably available equally to folks in any > time or place. Tapping into those insights happens on its own schedule and > > most claims to have discovered something deeper or better is probably only > > the result of not sufficiently appreciating other discoveries. > All of that aside, I still am not clear exactly why you believe the > first use was the best and therefore any subsequent work must be derived > from > it. I am aware that is a widespread belief. I just have never been able to > > find any reasonable explanation for why that should be so. > Frank > > > > ===== > To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org > from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. From owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Thu Apr 6 18:08:53 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA30910 for hexagram-8-outgoing; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 18:08:53 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: apocalypse.org: majordom set sender to owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org using -f Received: from imo-d09.mx.aol.com (imo-d09.mx.aol.com [205.188.157.41]) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA30906 for ; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 18:08:52 -0400 From: Autorbis@aol.com Received: from Autorbis@aol.com by imo-d09.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v25.3.) id h.a0.2fde699 (4363) for ; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 18:11:29 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2000 18:11:29 EDT Subject: Re: HEX8: Re: First use doctrine To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0.i for Windows sub 85 Sender: owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Hi Frank, << Hi Lothar, We seem to have miscommunicated a bit. It is not that Ibn Gabirol created anything like the I Ching at all. My comment was that his work actually sums up to one or two sentences at the end of 200+ pages of medieval argument. His insights are clearly those of his person, a poet and military man with deep mystic roots. Nothing at all of any system that could be derived from another in terms of number patterns or the like. The connection to the I Ching would be that hexagram one [Ch'ien], Ibn Gabirol, and by the UN conference of indigenous people's religions of the world all find the root of religious awe is the appreciation of the symbolism connected to water cycle based upon the interaction of geography and Solar celestial mechanics. As to the scholars, they see connections in their texts which have little relation to any actual origin or influence. The fact that volumes are catalogued next to each other in a library may make them seem connected to those who only read the material in that library, but trying to actually understand, duplicate or do parallel work with the insights quickly leads to understanding things aren't quite that simple. The connection I referred to was between Marc Jones' work which he called "The Ibn Gabirol Magic Squares" which relates sequence and philosophical sets to explain and develop concepts. All of this refers to work in metaphysics that has no relation to what was published when or any claim that some set of work was derived from any other. I am aware that such is a major occupation in the History of Philosophy, which is most of what academics know about philosophy. I prefer the view that human knowledge is bounded by the structure of the human mind and all the great insights are probably available equally to folks in any time or place. Tapping into those insights happens on its own schedule and most claims to have discovered something deeper or better is probably only the result of not sufficiently appreciating other discoveries. ## Well, probably I did misunderstood your words. I got from your words the imagination, that Ibn Gabirol presents himself together with "magical squares" as a forerunner of the kabbalistical systems. Then I learned from you, that these magical squares are done by somebody else in Ibn Gabirols name. Well, I misinterpreted you .... I've read, that's Fons Vitae is a poem, right, but one never knows :-). Communication is difficult and English is not my native language. ### All of that aside, I still am not clear exactly why you believe the first use was the best and therefore any subsequent work must be derived from it. I am aware that is a widespread belief. I just have never been able to find any reasonable explanation for why that should be so. ### There is not a question about quality. The first, who came up with a special idea, is just the origin of an idea, as far as history can gather the facts correctly. There may have been conditions, that someone after this "origin of the idea", got the same idea independently, however, in the case, that there are some social-historical conditions known, which guide to the conclusion, that "he got the idea from this source", then the context tells something about the development of the special idea, also something about the background of the first and second writer etc.. You simply get some more informations by observing "earlier" and "later". The question of the "best" representation of the idea isn't important in this observation. Often the second writer has the better chances to appear better because he's nearer to our time, so seems to be better understandable. ### ### My own research is about comparing various systems with some mathematical background. Questions like: "Did they follow the same structure" or "does the systems influence each other" and "are they similar, cause they influenced each other" appear very naturally. The question "who did the best representation" has only a minor importance. The systems are simply there, often you've only rudimentary informations about the background and naturally no real base to do any judgment. You've just a few informations and with some luck you get a few more to make the picture in your mind a little better. That's all. ### Lothar ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. From owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Fri Apr 7 12:07:14 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA15923 for hexagram-8-outgoing; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 12:07:14 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: apocalypse.org: majordom set sender to owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org using -f Received: from imo25.mx.aol.com (imo25.mx.aol.com [152.163.225.69]) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA15918 for ; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 12:07:13 -0400 From: FKegan@aol.com Received: from FKegan@aol.com by imo25.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v25.3.) id h.26.4043e02 (3842) for ; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 12:10:06 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <26.4043e02.261f625d@aol.com> Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2000 12:10:05 EDT Subject: Re: HEX8: Re: First use doctrine To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Windows sub 100 Sender: owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Hi WS, I am not quite clear about your reference to Hesse's Magister Ludi. You seem to have a different view of that game than did Hesse. From your "huh" remark I can only assume you find the reference in my comments outside your expected domain. It is common to relate the I Ching to events and processes in human experience in the world. Underlying such a perspective is an assumption that the symbolism of the I Ching can be related to the processes of human life. Western science assumes all can be explained from Genesis and Aristotle as interpreted by Newton and probability. Others assume there is a fundamental cyclic process which can be related to our experience of natural events. There is a shared understanding that all life and weather are the result of the interaction of solar energy, celestial dynamics of the sun and the interaction of Earth's geography. In scientific theory this is controlled by simple equations and probability. Others find a more explicit relationship which can be expressed in terms of the symbolism of the I Ching. If you had made more of an expression of your own perspective we could discuss it. As it is, I can only comment that I realize my remarks are outside your experience, but I am not clear if that is really my problem or yours. Frank ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. From owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Fri Apr 7 12:07:36 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA15944 for hexagram-8-outgoing; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 12:07:36 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: apocalypse.org: majordom set sender to owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org using -f Received: from imo25.mx.aol.com (imo25.mx.aol.com [152.163.225.69]) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA15939 for ; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 12:07:35 -0400 From: FKegan@aol.com Received: from FKegan@aol.com by imo25.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v25.3.) id h.9d.3d5f00d (3842) for ; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 12:10:34 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <9d.3d5f00d.261f6279@aol.com> Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2000 12:10:33 EDT Subject: HEX8: Re: First use doctrine To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Windows sub 100 Sender: owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Hi Lothar, Ibn Gabirol was a poet and philosopher. I believe "The Crown" is the name of his major philosophical poem, mostly on the structure of the Cosmos in terms of ancient spheres upon the outermost sits the feet of God's Throne. The Fons Vitae (Living Fountain or Fountain of Life) is all philosophy, 200+ pages argument establishing that at root there is the creative integration of form and material to produce the experienced world. I guess you have explained first use doctrine as well as it can be explained. The question of how texts relate based solely upon their date of publication without any demonstration of an actual connection (like the author of the later one read the former one) remains its own issue. In our own work, there certainly feels as though there is a difference between what one has used as source material and what only others note is similar to sources they are more familiar with, especially as usually folks commenting how work "is just such and such work restated" seem to be more interested in saving themselves the trouble of considering anything besides what they are already familiar with before. I have found that particularly true for those thinking Ibn Gabirol was Neo-Platonist. Frank ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. From owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Sat Apr 8 20:03:02 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id UAA14410 for hexagram-8-outgoing; Sat, 8 Apr 2000 20:03:02 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: apocalypse.org: majordom set sender to owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org using -f Received: from c000.sfo.cp.net (c000-h001.c000.sfo.cp.net [209.228.14.62]) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id UAA14404 for ; Sat, 8 Apr 2000 20:03:00 -0400 Received: (cpmta 19425 invoked from network); 8 Apr 2000 17:06:41 -0700 Received: from slip-32-100-102-3.or.us.prserv.net (HELO iname.com) (32.100.102.3) by smtp.worldspy.net with SMTP; 8 Apr 2000 17:06:41 -0700 X-Sent: 9 Apr 2000 00:06:41 GMT Message-ID: <38EFC95A.B9A58EAC@iname.com> Date: Sat, 08 Apr 2000 17:05:46 -0700 From: wayne_rebecca X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "hexagram-8@apocalypse.org" Subject: HEX8: slightly off topic pattern Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Hi, this is slightly off topic, but related. There are several Schools of Feng Shui, one being the 8 house system. The basic premise is that for each person, they have a "Personal Bagua" whose features are determined by when the were born, and the trigrams interaction with the later heaven trigram arrangement. For an article on how these are calculated, see this article written by listmember Lorraine Wilcox. http://www.geocities.com/zhen_qi/02eighthousederstars.html My question is this.... Why does the pattern stay the same "philosophically"? What is significant about the line from between south/southwest, and north/northeast, that makes it the dividing line between the eastgroup and westgroup? south good good / bad / east good / bad west / bad / good bad north This pattern stays the same for 4 of the houses, and then reverses for the other four. Does anyone know what this pattern represents? wayne -- Wayne & Rebecca Lowry Springfield, Oregon wayne_rebecca@iname.com ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. From owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Sat Apr 8 22:27:23 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id WAA20607 for hexagram-8-outgoing; Sat, 8 Apr 2000 22:27:23 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: apocalypse.org: majordom set sender to owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org using -f Received: from mta6.snfc21.pbi.net (mta6.snfc21.pbi.net [206.13.28.240]) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA20603 for ; Sat, 8 Apr 2000 22:27:22 -0400 Received: from pacbell.net (ppp-209-77-88-181.scrm01.pacbell.net) by mta6.snfc21.pbi.net (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.2000.01.05.12.18.p9) with ESMTP id <0FSQ00GKF9NP2D@mta6.snfc21.pbi.net> for hexagram-8@apocalypse.org; Sat, 8 Apr 2000 19:31:03 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sat, 08 Apr 2000 19:30:08 -0700 From: Ray Langley Subject: HEX8: slightly off topic pattern To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org, Xuan Kong Message-id: <38EFEB30.36EDAEFA@pacbell.net> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en] (Win98; U) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Accept-Language: en References: <38EFC95A.B9A58EAC@iname.com> Sender: owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org > this is slightly off topic, but related. There are several Schools of > Feng Shui, one being the 8 house system. > > The basic premise is that for each person, they have a "Personal Bagua" > whose features are determined by when the were born, and the trigrams > interaction with the later heaven trigram arrangement. > > For an article on how these are calculated, see this article written > by listmember Lorraine Wilcox. > http://www.geocities.com/zhen_qi/02eighthousederstars.html > > My question is this.... > Why does the pattern stay the same "philosophically"? What is > significant about the line from between south/southwest, and > north/northeast, that makes it the dividing line between the > eastgroup and westgroup? > > south > good good / bad > / > east good / bad west > / > bad / good bad > north > > This pattern stays the same for 4 of the houses, and then reverses > for the other four. > > Does anyone know what this pattern represents? > > wayne Hi Wayne. Since you posted this to at least two lists, I am answering it to two lists. This is explained in Master Larry Sang's book, "Principles of Feng Shui, Book One", in some detail. I sometimes refer to this procedure as a "transmigration" of Trigrams. It has to do with "changing lines" of a Trigram. Like many other things in Chinese metaphysics, it follows a "set" pattern or formula. -- Warmest Regards, Ray Have Luo Pan, Will Travel! ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. From owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Sun Apr 9 12:28:40 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA10572 for hexagram-8-outgoing; Sun, 9 Apr 2000 12:28:40 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: apocalypse.org: majordom set sender to owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org using -f Received: from c000.sfo.cp.net (c000-h000.c000.sfo.cp.net [209.228.14.61]) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id MAA10568 for ; Sun, 9 Apr 2000 12:28:39 -0400 Received: (cpmta 20461 invoked from network); 9 Apr 2000 09:31:55 -0700 Received: from slip-32-100-102-115.or.us.prserv.net (HELO iname.com) (32.100.102.115) by smtp.worldspy.net with SMTP; 9 Apr 2000 09:31:55 -0700 X-Sent: 9 Apr 2000 16:31:55 GMT Message-ID: <38F0B03F.32046460@iname.com> Date: Sun, 09 Apr 2000 09:30:55 -0700 From: wayne_rebecca X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: chineseastrology@egroups.com CC: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Subject: HEX8: Re: [ChineseAstrology] slightly off topic pattern References: <38EFC95A.B9A58EAC@iname.com> <38EFEB30.36EDAEFA@pacbell.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Hi, I understand the trigram line derivation, but what does the fact that all of them follow this pattern mean from the I ching perspective? Not "how is it this way", but "Why". wayne Ray Langley wrote: > > My question is this.... > > Why does the pattern stay the same "philosophically"? What is > > significant about the line from between south/southwest, and > > north/northeast, that makes it the dividing line between the > > eastgroup and westgroup? > > Hi Wayne. Since you posted this to at least two lists, I am answering > it to two lists. This is explained in Master Larry Sang's book, > "Principles of Feng Shui, Book One", in some detail. > > I sometimes refer to this procedure as a "transmigration" of > Trigrams. It has to do with "changing lines" of a Trigram. Like > many other things in Chinese metaphysics, it follows a "set" > pattern or formula. -- Wayne & Rebecca Lowry Springfield, Oregon wayne_rebecca@iname.com ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. From owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Sun Apr 9 19:53:21 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id TAA31234 for hexagram-8-outgoing; Sun, 9 Apr 2000 19:53:21 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: apocalypse.org: majordom set sender to owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org using -f Received: from web110.yahoomail.com (web110.yahoomail.com [205.180.60.80]) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id TAA31230 for ; Sun, 9 Apr 2000 19:53:20 -0400 Received: (qmail 18475 invoked by uid 60001); 9 Apr 2000 23:57:09 -0000 Message-ID: <20000409235709.18474.qmail@web110.yahoomail.com> Received: from [38.36.45.66] by web110.yahoomail.com; Sun, 09 Apr 2000 16:57:09 PDT Date: Sun, 9 Apr 2000 16:57:09 -0700 (PDT) From: Stephen Field Subject: Re: HEX8: slightly off topic pattern To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org --- wayne_rebecca wrote: > My question is this.... > Why does the pattern stay the same > "philosophically"? What is > significant about the line from between > south/southwest, and > north/northeast, that makes it the dividing line > between the > eastgroup and westgroup? The answer to your question is fairly complicated, and I addressed it in great detail in an article called "The Numerology of Nine Star Fengshui: A Hetu, Luoshu Resolution of the Mystery of Directional Auspice," in Journal of Chinese Religions, No. 27 (1999): 13-33. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. From owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Mon Apr 10 02:26:08 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id CAA15326 for hexagram-8-outgoing; Mon, 10 Apr 2000 02:26:08 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: apocalypse.org: majordom set sender to owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org using -f Received: from mta5.snfc21.pbi.net (mta5.snfc21.pbi.net [206.13.28.241]) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id CAA15322 for ; Mon, 10 Apr 2000 02:26:07 -0400 Received: from pacbell.net (ppp-207-215-86-18.scrm01.pacbell.net) by mta5.snfc21.pbi.net (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.2000.01.05.12.18.p9) with ESMTP id <0FSS00A5OFDS6G@mta5.snfc21.pbi.net> for hexagram-8@apocalypse.org; Sun, 9 Apr 2000 23:29:53 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sun, 09 Apr 2000 23:28:59 -0700 From: Ray Langley Subject: Re: HEX8: slightly off topic pattern To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org, Xuan Kong Message-id: <38F174AB.5F4A6990@pacbell.net> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en] (Win98; U) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Accept-Language: en References: <20000409235709.18474.qmail@web110.yahoomail.com> Sender: owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Wayne wrote: > > My question is this.... Why does the pattern stay the same > > "philosophically"? What is > > significant about the line from between > > south/southwest, and > > north/northeast, that makes it the dividing line > > between the eastgroup and westgroup? Stephen Field wrote: > The answer to your question is fairly complicated, and > I addressed it in great detail in an article called > "The Numerology of Nine Star Fengshui: A Hetu, Luoshu > Resolution of the Mystery of Directional Auspice," in > Journal of Chinese Religions, No. 27 (1999): 13-33. Hi Wayne and Stephen, I agree that it is a complicated explanation! There is a "quick and easy", "down and dirty" method to this problem. I have been asked not to reveal it on the internet. Wayne, the next time you come to visit, I will teach you the complete method, in person. In the meantime, here is the "Rosetta Stone": 2 3 1 8 4 6 7 9 Place the Trigram Number of the "House" in the Center. Add it to each of the other numbers.... this is all I can say at this time. Here is one tip... anytime the center number (Trigram) and the other number is either 1-6, 2-7, 3-8, 4-9, it is the "best" number. Good luck. Whenever the two numbers add up to 6 or 14, it is the "worst" number/palace. -- Warmest Regards, Ray Have Luo Pan, Will Travel! ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. From owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Mon Apr 10 15:38:30 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA22270 for hexagram-8-outgoing; Mon, 10 Apr 2000 15:38:30 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: apocalypse.org: majordom set sender to owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org using -f Received: from wave.coastnet.com (wave.coastnet.com [206.87.35.216]) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id PAA22265 for ; Mon, 10 Apr 2000 15:38:29 -0400 Received: (qmail 29011 invoked from network); 10 Apr 2000 19:42:23 -0000 Received: from d121.coastnet.com (HELO dlesper) (206.87.35.131) by wave.coastnet.com with SMTP; 10 Apr 2000 19:42:23 -0000 Message-ID: <003701bfa323$ea8daf00$832357ce@dlesper> From: "dlesper or cathbell" To: Subject: HEX8: Above and below Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 12:34:44 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org I believe that there are correlations between Taoism and the physical world. The I Ching is to Taoism what mathematics is to physics. Last November we started an interesting discussion about Yin/Yang and space/time. I found the ideas intriguing, and since then have been reading about the current state of physics. My readings have taken me to String Theory. String Theory postulates that all particles and forces are comprised of vibrating strings, and how they vibrate determines their nature. There’s a number of interesting ideas that come out of String Theory. As I see it, there are two basic types of forces: the binding force (the strong nuclear and gravity), and the expanding force (the weak nuclear and electromagnetic (interestingly enough, if the pressures are high enough these two forces become one.)) The expanding forces are the Yang, and the binding forces are the Yin? String Theory seems also to allow what I call the Big Bounce. If the universe started with a Big Bang, and if it is sufficiently dense, it will end with the Big Crunch. String Theory allows that as the universe gets to a minimum size, it starts to expand again. It appears that as one of the units we use to measure the universe becomes smaller, another inverse unit becomes bigger. The total mass and energy are always equal. String Theory also allows for all energies to have their opposites, and quantum mechanics has all energies in the universe being balanced. These ideas sounds very Taoist to me. There are a number of other fascinating ideas (such as the 11 dimensional universe), but with my limited knowledge of String Theory so far, I don’t see yet how they relate to Taoism or the I Ching. Does anyone know of any scholarly mailing lists that discusses physics and Taoism where I can flesh out my ideas? Does anyone here have any comments? Best Regards, Darren ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. From owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Mon Apr 10 19:20:12 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id TAA07416 for hexagram-8-outgoing; Mon, 10 Apr 2000 19:20:12 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: apocalypse.org: majordom set sender to owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org using -f Received: from imo23.mx.aol.com (imo23.mx.aol.com [152.163.225.67]) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA07401 for ; Mon, 10 Apr 2000 19:20:11 -0400 From: Autorbis@aol.com Received: from Autorbis@aol.com by imo23.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v25.3.) id h.af.24351fb (7319) for ; Mon, 10 Apr 2000 19:23:03 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 19:23:02 EDT Subject: Re: HEX8: Re: First use doctrine To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0.i for Windows sub 85 Sender: owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org << Hi Lothar, Ibn Gabirol was a poet and philosopher. I believe "The Crown" is the name of his major philosophical poem, mostly on the structure of the Cosmos in terms of ancient spheres upon the outermost sits the feet of God's Throne. The Fons Vitae (Living Fountain or Fountain of Life) is all philosophy, 200+ pages argument establishing that at root there is the creative integration of form and material to produce the experienced world. I guess you have explained first use doctrine as well as it can be explained. The question of how texts relate based solely upon their date of publication without any demonstration of an actual connection (like the author of the later one read the former one) remains its own issue. In our own work, there certainly feels as though there is a difference between what one has used as source material and what only others note is similar to sources they are more familiar with, especially as usually folks commenting how work "is just such and such work restated" seem to be more interested in saving themselves the trouble of considering anything besides what they are already familiar with before. I have found that particularly true for those thinking Ibn Gabirol was Neo-Platonist. Frank >> Hi Frank, the "throne" is a general jewish concept based upon the visions of Ezechiel. It was very popular in the early centuries after Christ. Well, perhaps you're right, that Ibn Gabirol should be seen as an outstanding thinker. I haven't read him, so I can't judge it. Most of my dictionaries don't know him, but one states, that he was rather important and got much influence on some of the great spirits in medieval time. One other knows him under the name Avicebron. Perhaps I'll have a walk to the University library to get some more informations. My CD about various texts of philosophy knows him also under Avicebron, as this he is noted in the texts of Thomas from Aquin and of Bruno. Bruno thinks, that he is an Arabic philosoph. Western philosophy is very special about special terms (in the case of Ibn Gabirol it's very special about "form" and "materia"). One has to ask, if the Chinese could have taken the same route, as they were hindered by a limited number of Chinese signs, if it was possible for them, to "emerge in words" as it was done in Western philosophy. Before you entered Hexagram-8, in autumn 1999, we had a longer discussion here, if some of the older chinese thinker could mean with "yin" and "yang" something, which in some way could be comparable to our Western definition of "time" and "space" (beside other definitions for yin + yang). Of course one could raise the alternative question, if Ibn Gabirols "form" and "materia" is ALSO comparable to the Chinese "yin+yang", perhaps as a result of their limited possibilities of language or because our limited imaginations about the subtleties of Chinese communication :-) After all I could imagine, that a medieval philosoph - with a mathematical model in the background like all these neoplatonists had - could create easily a form-materia-dualism similar to the model of I-Ching with similar intentions - to show the world, how wonderful God had created the universe. But if this is provable or at least, if it is possible to show that it is likely, might be a much more difficult task. Greetings Lothar ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. From owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Tue Apr 11 11:27:01 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA16241 for hexagram-8-outgoing; Tue, 11 Apr 2000 11:27:01 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: apocalypse.org: majordom set sender to owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org using -f Received: from imo-d08.mx.aol.com (imo-d08.mx.aol.com [205.188.157.40]) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA16234 for ; Tue, 11 Apr 2000 11:27:00 -0400 From: FKegan@aol.com Received: from FKegan@aol.com by imo-d08.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v25.3.) id h.db.2b94bbf (4397) for ; Tue, 11 Apr 2000 11:30:27 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 11:30:26 EDT Subject: Re: HEX8: Above and below To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Windows sub 100 Sender: owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Hi Darren, As an undergraduate, decades ago, I worked in philosophy of science. I found in ancient Hindu thought much of the ideas now popular in physics as Quantum theory. There are fundamental problems with modern science which is still trying to jury rig ways to fit advanced experimental data into fundamental theory from Newton's day and earlier. One of the interesting insights is that our physics is all based upon images of electromagnetic radiation (light waves of various frequencies) and experiment indicates that solid matter can be considered light tied up in little knots (electrons, protons). Whether these are actually what makes up external reality or just what it is that we can perceive is generally considered beyond the realm of science. If a tree falls in a forrest is makes no "sound" since the scientific definition of "sound" involves acoustic energy which is perceived by humans or their instruments. Only what is perceived and recorded is the realm of science. Once the discussion moves from what is the fundamental nature of matter, reality or the Universe to what are humans able to perceive, then all cultures have an equal shot at the descriptions and insights. Eastern thought has focused more upon what can the human mind experience while Western science prefers to skip that part and focus upon the images produced which can be published for others to see. In terms of relating yang and yin to the forces of physics one way to begin would be to relate yang to what is seen as being in control and yin to what is the context which allows that perception to focus. Frank ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. From owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Tue Apr 11 11:29:01 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA16478 for hexagram-8-outgoing; Tue, 11 Apr 2000 11:29:01 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: apocalypse.org: majordom set sender to owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org using -f Received: from imo-d08.mx.aol.com (imo-d08.mx.aol.com [205.188.157.40]) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA16473 for ; Tue, 11 Apr 2000 11:29:01 -0400 From: FKegan@aol.com Received: from FKegan@aol.com by imo-d08.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v25.3.) id h.cb.4204dde (4397) for ; Tue, 11 Apr 2000 11:32:27 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 11:30:25 EDT Subject: HEX8: Re: philosophical words and ancient thoughts To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Windows sub 100 Sender: owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Greetings Lothar, Yes, Solomon Ben Judah Ibn Gabirol was known in medieval Europe through the Latin translation of his name (and his philosophical work, Fons Vitae) as Avicebron who was generally thought to be Muslim or Christian since he did not cite Torah or other Jewish scripture. It was a work of late 19th century scholarship to figure out that Avicebron was the Spanish translator's name for Ibn Gabirol. It is also certain that the academic experts consider him NeoPlatonist since he argues for many pages about everything being composed of material and form. Personally, I believe a better explanation is to be found through the work of Piaget. In medieval logic concepts as mental images abstracted from experience was beyond their epistemology. A concept was a concrete thing composed of "rational material" or of the stuff the mind is built with completely analogous to a sculpture done in clay. The notion that all objects were made of basically the same thing with minor variations causing the clear differences, that is our modern molecular notion of matter all made of protons, neutrons and electrons, was clearly beyond empirical verification at that time. It was not beyond imaginative experience. I knew a friend who figured out from the action of waves in the water in her bathtub at age 5 that water must be composed of tiny particles stuck together. There is a supposition that it is only our massive equipment that allows understanding of physics; however, the observations required are available without any such equipment. Bits of leaves floating upon water will show that there is an internal commotion going on, which the British (and Soviets) have named for their first scientist to publish about it, Brownian motion in English texts. Given that an object and the drawing of an object or a person and a sculpture of a person, look very much the same shows that form is a general property independent of the material which is shaped to that form. To generalize that form and material are common components of all perceived things in the Piaget epistemology of concrete operations and objects of the ancient world and early middle ages took a vast set of detailed, concrete arguments. I believe that is what Ibn Gabirol is doing in Fons Vitae. Since Piaget's work is 20th century and most of the Ibn Gabirol scholarship is established by the late 19th century, the assumption he was a NeoPlatonist was mostly a matter of assumptions that all texts had to fit into the categories already known and established. This becomes even more of an issue in the case of the concepts of yang and yin. The Chinese ideograms in Weiger, S. J. have a clear etymology from a pennant fluttering in the sun and the dark of a valley. In today's terms that is figure and ground of gestalt. It was the European translators and Sinologists who had the limited vocabulary and philosophical terminology who coming upon the concepts called Gestalt in the last 10 or 12 decades assumed the Chinese had to be behind them rather than realizing they were millennia ahead of them. A family friend, Prof. Francis Hsu, who was Chairman of the Dept. of Anthropology at Northwestern University for many years (now deceased, author of Chinese and Americans, also Clan, Caste and Club) used to ridicule the notion that language or vocabulary were prerequisite to understanding concepts. Rather he noted, when a new concept required expression, a word would be created or absorbed from some other context or language and adapted to the precise use at hand. The Chinese were well aware of the mental representation of perceptions and imagination and the insights to be achieved through meditation. It is the correlation of these mental experiences with the events perceived to be external, objective reality which is the realm of philosophy. Since Western philosophy has yet to come to grips with meditation and the nature of our personal mental machinery controlling how we experience external reality, all discussion of philosophy should begin with the realization that it is Western thought which is hamstrung from a lack of fundamental understanding, vocabulary or rigorous experience. The issues then quickly focus in terms of how one sees or respects other cultures and how well one can accept the notion that the material being studied involves superior science and understanding which is to be learned from better than being projected into the most convenient lower form in terms of what one expects to find in your own culture. It is an interesting philosophical exercise to consider how one would perceive if a text refers to new ideas to be learned rather than being whatever seems the old ideas which can be imposed upon it. In Western terms, seek and ye shall find. If you are open to finding advanced concepts, they can be found and shown to be the result of development in that culture. If you seek only to see what fraction of your knowledge "they" achieved yet, that is also what you will find. Greetings, Frank ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. From owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Tue Apr 11 19:32:23 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id TAA27466 for hexagram-8-outgoing; Tue, 11 Apr 2000 19:32:23 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: apocalypse.org: majordom set sender to owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org using -f Received: from mail1.crcom.net (mail1.crcom.net [208.220.74.12]) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA27461 for ; Tue, 11 Apr 2000 19:32:21 -0400 Received: from ccbswks21.xroadstx.com (max02-03.crcom.net [208.234.65.60]) by mail1.crcom.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id SAA24219 for ; Tue, 11 Apr 2000 18:36:22 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <38F3B66E.4AD5@crcom.net> Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 18:34:06 -0500 From: Charlie Higgins Organization: New Insights on Ancient Paradigms X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Subject: HEX8: [Fwd: Questions on the I Ching] Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------478854494BFE" Sender: owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------478854494BFE Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I received this email from a girl (high school or college class, I don't know) who is writing a research paper on the Yi. It would certainly be helpful to her if those of you who have the time to answer her questions (even partially) would do so. Charlie Higgins --------------478854494BFE Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Received: from cupcake.seagull.net (mail@[216.163.78.129]) by mail1.crcom.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA13664 for ; Tue, 11 Apr 2000 16:37:07 -0500 (CDT) Received: (mail@localhost) by cupcake.seagull.net (8.9.3) id OAA28735 sender ama@innocent.com for chh; Tue, 11 Apr 2000 14:35:46 -0700 Received: from rmx06.iname.net (rmx06.iname.net [165.251.8.205]) by cupcake.seagull.net (8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA28727 sender ama@innocent.com for ; Tue, 11 Apr 2000 14:35:46 -0700 Received: from weba3.iname.net by rmx06.iname.net (8.9.1/8.8.0) with ESMTP id RAA05809 Received: (from root@localhost) by weba3.iname.net (8.9.1a/8.9.2.Alpha2) id RAA11758; Tue, 11 Apr 2000 17:31:53 -0400 (EDT) From: ama@innocent.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <000411173153FT.13151@weba3.iname.net> Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 17:31:53 -0400 (EDT) X-Mailer-Version: 20000329 X-Recipient: chh@mension.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: chh@mension.com Cc: ddiamond@ozemail.com.au Subject: Questions on the I Ching Content-Type: Text/Plain Hello, my name is Amanda Maestro-Scherer. I am writing a research paper on the I Ching. I visited your website, and I was wondering if you would be willing to answer several questions on the I Ching for me. If you could, it would help me tremendously. 1. Why exactly does the I Ching work? (if this question can be answered) 2. Why has it survived for thousands of years? 3. Who in China still uses the I Ching as a source of guidance? 4. What proof is there that the I Ching is more accurate than chance? 5. Have you used the I Ching? What do you think of the accuracy of the readings in providing you guidance to your questions? 6. Do you personally know of others who use the I Ching on a regular basis? What do they think of the accuracy? 7. What are the importance historical points about the I Ching? 8. Do you think that the I Ching will begin to be used by more people as a source of guidance? 9. Are there ways of proving the I Ching's validity? 10. What do you think the best source of information on the I Ching is? Thank you very much for your time. If you could reply to this email it would be very, very helpful for my paper. Thanks again! Amanda Maestro-Scherer --------------------------------------------------- Get free personalized email at http://www.iname.com --------------478854494BFE-- ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. From owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Tue Apr 11 20:07:01 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id UAA29791 for hexagram-8-outgoing; Tue, 11 Apr 2000 20:07:01 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: apocalypse.org: majordom set sender to owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org using -f Received: from mail1.crcom.net (mail1.crcom.net [208.220.74.12]) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA29783 for ; Tue, 11 Apr 2000 20:07:00 -0400 Received: from ccbswks21.xroadstx.com (max02-03.crcom.net [208.234.65.60]) by mail1.crcom.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id TAA27589 for ; Tue, 11 Apr 2000 19:11:03 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <38F3BE90.6098@crcom.net> Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 19:08:48 -0500 From: Charlie Higgins Organization: New Insights on Ancient Paradigms X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Subject: Re: HEX8: [Fwd: Questions on the I Ching] References: <38F3B66E.4AD5@crcom.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org In regards to the girl's question, it would be stimulating if those who do anser would cc their remarks to Hex8. Charlie ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. From owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Thu Apr 13 12:17:33 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA04805 for hexagram-8-outgoing; Thu, 13 Apr 2000 12:17:33 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: apocalypse.org: majordom set sender to owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org using -f Received: from imo-d03.mx.aol.com (imo-d03.mx.aol.com [205.188.157.35]) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA04800 for ; Thu, 13 Apr 2000 12:17:32 -0400 From: FKegan@aol.com Received: from FKegan@aol.com by imo-d03.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v25.3.) id 5.70.260412e (4414); Thu, 13 Apr 2000 12:20:43 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <70.260412e.26274dda@aol.com> Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2000 12:20:42 EDT Subject: HEX8: Re: Research paper on I Ching To: chh@crcom.net CC: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Windows sub 100 Sender: owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Charlie, I am unable to decipher the original sender's Email beyond "cupcake.seagull.net" which doesn't quite seem a regular Internet address. Please forward this reply back to her for me. Thanks. Dear Amanda Maestro-Scherer. A partial answer to your questions: 1. The I Ching "works" exactly because people who ask questions of the Oracle experience the response they receive as answering their questions and explaining the process of why that question was important to them. 2. It has survived thousands of years for 2 reasons: a) It is one of the 5 Confucian Classics b) its perspective continues to be useful and relevant to those who consult it. 3. I don't know who in China uses it. However it is still used by some, as well as some in Taiwan, Hong Kong and throughout the world including the US. 4. The more exact question is how would you prove Chance exists. The physicist P. W. Bridgman came up with a science perspective called "operationalism" by which theory was replaced by the description of the actions or operations performed. Operationally, you can only demonstrate if some particular order was used or a particular formula can explain the next result in a series. Beyond that, if results are called "Chance" or "Supernatural guidance" is a matter of personal belief or opinion only. Statistical analysis can only show if one group of results differs in their average result from another. If everything is ordered by the Cosmos their could be no demonstrated difference. Again, it is finding the Chance sample control group which is the limitation to the research. 5. I use the oracle of the I Ching, I find that it "works" to supply understanding that I need, which is different from answering all questions as I expect or might wish. Others I know who use it have similar results. Those who continue to use the oracle of the I Ching find personal subjective validation of the results. 7. The traditional historical points of the I Ching are the development of hexagrams as a system of binary counters in a sine-wave pattern 2200 BC The current sequence and oracle text about 1100 BC the modern commentary on the text with Confucius 600 BC and the official Imperial edition of the commentaries AD 1716. There are far more precise records of what details were used in texts or objects found in archeological sites. Interpretation of the materials depends mostly upon whether it is conceivable for another culture to have discovered millennia ago things ours came to in the last century or two. 8. The American interest in the I Ching varies over time. At some point in the future it will definitely be used by more folks, at least for a while. Personally, I have great hope that in another 900 years or so Western Science will catch up with the mathematics of the I Ching. 9. Proving validity is always a difficult experimental question. The simplest method for a classroom research paper such as yours would be to have a group of students in class all think of their own individual questions and at the same time cast the oracle, each one of them, by whatever method you choose for your experiment (tossing coins will certainly be simplest for the experiment). Then you can record what oracle each student received and do your statistical study of the pattern of that result. The experiment would be completed by having each student read a text, such as The Wilhelm/Baynes translation of I Ching or Book of Changes (Bolligen Press) for their oracle and write their sense of what that oracle meant and how it seemed to them to answer their question. Devising a questionnaire about how it felt to each of them as a specific answer to their individual question, you could use the answers on that questionnaire as data for statistical analysis of validity. 10. The Wilhelm/Baynes text mentioned above is the standard academic source. Beyond that your personal experience using the Oracle would be, your best source. Other than that any library search or search of Amazon.com for "Book of Changes" or "I Ching" will return sufficient reference material to sort through. I hope these partial answers are helpful in your research, and that they are able to wend their way back through the Internet connections to you. Sincerely, Frank R. Kegan ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. From owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Thu Apr 13 19:08:22 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id TAA10446 for hexagram-8-outgoing; Thu, 13 Apr 2000 19:08:22 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: apocalypse.org: majordom set sender to owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org using -f Received: from tha.express-news.net (admin.express-news.net [204.57.68.22]) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA10442 for ; Thu, 13 Apr 2000 19:08:21 -0400 Received: from newmicronpc ([204.57.69.120]) by tha.express-news.net (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-60526U7500L4800S0V35) with SMTP id net for ; Thu, 13 Apr 2000 18:12:38 -0500 Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.20000413180304.007d2e60@express-news.net> X-Sender: omei@express-news.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2000 18:03:04 -0500 To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org From: omei shan Subject: HEX8: I'm Ba-ack! In-Reply-To: <38F0B03F.32046460@iname.com> References: <38EFC95A.B9A58EAC@iname.com> <38EFEB30.36EDAEFA@pacbell.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Hi, everybody! Guess who's back from West Texas! All I can say about the place is: "WOW!" The area is beautiful, beautiful, beautiful! We did Big Bend (The Chiso Basin is awesome), saw the Marfa lights two nights in a row, toured Ft. Davis, stayed at Indian Lodge, visited the McDonald Observatory (twice), and generally had a *wonderful* time! I'm ready to go back and stay a couple of weeks! I wish someone had warned me about 170 between Lajitas and Presidio - The scenery was beyond words, but those hills scared me - 15 degree grades - can you imagine! (Guess who got to drive!) Sorry I missed a couple of the emails, but I logged off as soon as I said I was going. This is the first chance I've had to read my emails (273 down, 148 to go!). Monica ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. From owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Fri Apr 14 07:07:25 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id HAA07504 for hexagram-8-outgoing; Fri, 14 Apr 2000 07:07:25 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: apocalypse.org: majordom set sender to owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org using -f Received: from mail1.crcom.net (mail1.crcom.net [208.220.74.12]) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA07500 for ; Fri, 14 Apr 2000 07:07:24 -0400 Received: from ccbswks21.xroadstx.com (max01-43.crcom.net [208.234.65.52]) by mail1.crcom.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id GAA00231 for ; Fri, 14 Apr 2000 06:11:41 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <38F6FC55.3748@crcom.net> Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2000 06:09:09 -0500 From: Charlie Higgins Organization: New Insights on Ancient Paradigms X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Subject: Re: HEX8: [Fwd: Questions on the I Ching] References: <38F3B66E.4AD5@crcom.net> <38F3BE90.6098@crcom.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Done... >> Charlie, I am unable to decipher the original sender's Email beyond "cupcake.seagull.net" which doesn't quite seem a regular Internet address. Please forward this reply back to her for me. Thanks.<< ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. From owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Fri Apr 14 10:57:53 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA18626 for hexagram-8-outgoing; Fri, 14 Apr 2000 10:57:53 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: apocalypse.org: majordom set sender to owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org using -f Received: from imo14.mx.aol.com (imo14.mx.aol.com [152.163.225.4]) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA18621 for ; Fri, 14 Apr 2000 10:57:52 -0400 From: Autorbis@aol.com Received: from Autorbis@aol.com by imo14.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v25.3.) id h.99.3709a1b (4424) for ; Fri, 14 Apr 2000 11:01:40 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <99.3709a1b.26288cd4@aol.com> Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2000 11:01:40 EDT Subject: Re: HEX8: [Fwd: Questions on the I Ching] To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0.i for Windows sub 85 Sender: owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Some answers: << 1. Why exactly does the I Ching work? (if this question can be answered) ## There are some people, who "believe", that it works, and others, who "believe", that it doesn't work. Most people doesn't care about the whole problem. Only those people, who "believe", that it works, have eventually a theory, why it works. In any case, it's only a "believed" theory. I "believe", that any sort of divination "can" work. The result is always rather subjective as any result of communication with somebody or something. You "believe", that you've understood something when communicating. This understanding you see as a result, but there's mostly nobody, who can judge, if your understanding is "correct" or "incorrect". In human communication there are lot of examples, when communication seems to work. I say: "Give the hammer to me" and from your following action (in the case, that I really do get a hammer from you) I experience, that the world is a nice place, that "works". But occasionally I doesn't get the hammer, and I experience, that you misunderstood my demand. "Give the hammer to me" is a rather easy sentence, and in the case, that a hammer is nearby und you are aware, that I have some use for a hammer, I've a rather good chance, that you realize, what's going on, and I do get the hammer. But there are more complex sentences, and the more complex my communicated idea is, the greater becomes the probability, that I'm not understood. In the case, that I do communicate with a TV, I'm more or less receptive. Mostly I do think, that I understand, what is going on there, but there is nobody outside, who gives me any additional information, if I got the given context correctly. Well, the only action I can do, is to switch the channell or to stop the machine, and to hope, that the TV is in order and "understands" that. Generally an action of divination is rather complex. How to realize, if the action was successful or not? How to verify it in a sort of statistic? I do hope, that I do understand something .... but that's only hope. It's just an inner process like thinking, dreaming, remembering, assuming, etc. ... Nobody tells me anything about "true understanding" in this matter. Just my own feeling dictates my own confidence in that. I do declare: "I can divinate ...", there is no other base than this self-statement ... Then "it works". And then I look at the nightly heaven with all this many stars and beautiful worlds and meditate the long passing of all time, and laugh about myself and my own silly arrogance ... :-) What a funny game it is :-) ## 2. Why has it survived for thousands of years? ### It was probably from its beginning a rather important text. Important texts have a good chance to survive the changing times. Those texts, which didn't survive, we don't know :-)### 3. Who in China still uses the I Ching as a source of guidance? 4. What proof is there that the I Ching is more accurate than chance? ### There is only subjective evidence. ## 5. Have you used the I Ching? What do you think of the accuracy of the readings in providing you guidance to your questions? ### Yes, I've done the I-Ching. The results are subjective. ## 6. Do you personally know of others who use the I Ching on a regular basis? What do they think of the accuracy? ### Yes, I do know others. Their opinions are different, as usually. ### 7. What are the importance historical points about the I Ching? ### There are many. The stuff is more than 3000 years old, naturally there are a lot of historical stories around it. I think, that the most important point is, that there were similar uses of similar mathematical structures inside philosophies, divination technics, mythologies, religious ideas etc. in the past allover the world outside of China. And I think, the really striking point is, that this is not understood until nowadays. ### 8. Do you think that the I Ching will begin to be used by more people as a source of guidance? ### No, I do think, it has had its climax. Once, in the 70ies, it was new to a lot of people. The curiosity about it has gone. Perhaps it's getting another renaissance in later times.### 9. Are there ways of proving the I Ching's validity? ### Try it :-) ### 10. What do you think the best source of information on the I Ching is? ### Probably it's good to start with the Wilhelm/Baynes translation, as this is the book, that most people have read. Then you read something and there are others, who've read the same book and you've something to talk about with them. But my personal answer to this question is: "Life is the best source of information on I-Ching". ### Lothar ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. From owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Sun Apr 16 05:26:59 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id FAA30997 for hexagram-8-outgoing; Sun, 16 Apr 2000 05:26:59 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: apocalypse.org: majordom set sender to owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org using -f Received: from geo.net.ge (IDENT:root@ns.geo.net.ge [212.58.125.2]) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id FAA30993 for ; Sun, 16 Apr 2000 05:26:54 -0400 Received: from pamela ([212.58.125.71]) by geo.net.ge (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id NAA15239; Sun, 16 Apr 2000 13:43:08 +0500 Message-ID: <00de01bfa78e$d0a2fb80$437d3ad4@pamela> From: "Nakashidze" To: Cc: Subject: HEX8: Questions on the I Ching Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2000 14:29:37 +0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.0518.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.0518.4 Sender: owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Dear Amanta Maestro-Scherer Here are some answers: 1. C.G. Jung thought about this question for a long time, he hypothesised a parallelism in psychical state of a man and physical world, that is displayed in sinchronous flow of events. He devoted a special book to this question “Synchronicity”. 2. There is an information, that three “I” were in various dinasties, long before the usual “Chou I”, we all use now: “Lian Shan” in the semi-mythological dinasty Xia (about 30 century BCE) and “Gui Zan” in Shang-Yin (18 –11 c. c. BCE) and they were lost. 3. For centuries a professional divinator was very usual for market places in all towns and villages in China. It is interesting, that the book, that had been escaped ”Chin fire” in –213 BCE, was prohibited after the revolution of 1949. Ten years later the prohibition had been cancelled for 1-2 years, but then was introduced again and so strict, that many “ichingists” have been subjected to repression in the years of “cultural revolution”. It has been rehabilitated only in 80-ies. I know (not personally) one physicist Wang Hongqi, who has published a book (in Chinese) about “I Ching” and also patented playing cards with its theme, very interesting. An international center for I Ching works now works in the province Shandong (Confucius’s homeland), city Jinan. 4. Chance or probability are out of the question. 5. Yes, I used “I Ching” and it often was a great help for me and my friends. The most striking is not a sense meaning of divinations (a man can find common sense between very different things and tie very different events:-)), but a litteral coincidence of divination’s result and the existing or future situation: for example a week before an operation of appendix one girl obtained a situation with words “biting into meat” (in Russian translation: “extract a peritoneum” !). 6. 7. 8. Yes, I think, that I Ching will begin to be used by more people not only in everyday life, but also in science, as a basis of forming new scientific paradigm. It will be two-sided process: use of I Ching will help to understand it more. 9. Use it, when You have serious question, but look at it with unprejudiced, wider view, not as on scientific matter, with statistics, reproducibility of events etc. 10. The best information about “I Ching” is it itself, none commentary may be compared with it. Try to read as many translations as You can, in various languages. In sum they may create an impression about “I Ching”. Best wishes Timur ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. From owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Mon Apr 17 05:29:35 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id FAA11122 for hexagram-8-outgoing; Mon, 17 Apr 2000 05:29:35 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: apocalypse.org: majordom set sender to owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org using -f Received: from nemesis.worldnet.net (nemesis.worldnet.net [195.3.3.18]) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id FAA11113 for ; Mon, 17 Apr 2000 05:29:33 -0400 Received: from m4.worldnet.net (m4.worldnet.net [195.3.3.8]) by nemesis.worldnet.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA17896 for ; Mon, 17 Apr 2000 11:34:17 +0200 (CEST) Received: from 195.3.16.110 (wn16-110.paris.worldnet.fr [195.3.16.110]) by m4.worldnet.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id LAA04663 for ; Mon, 17 Apr 2000 11:16:45 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <38FADA92.349C@worldnet.fr> Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 11:34:10 +0200 From: Dautun Organization: Gnostics, Inc. X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 [fr] (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Subject: Re: HEX8: [Fwd: Questions on the I Ching] References: <38F3B66E.4AD5@crcom.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Here's my bunch of answers to the questions of Amanda Maestro-Scherer, as transmitted by Charlie Higgins. 1. Why exactly does the I Ching work? (if this question can be answered) Because it is an invention /discovery of the human consciousness about oneself, so that, when somebody makes it ‘work’, he sees in action when it works the most inner processes,and highest level of his own consciousness. 2. Why has it survived for thousands of years? Because the deepst and highets level of human consciousness is at once what makes humanity run and whant is still a total mystery. So that many feel that The Yi must be protected like a precious part of man himself, as long as it keeps unknown, though it remains unknown, and because it remains unknown and must be cleared out one day. 3. Who in China still uses the I Ching as a source of guidance? A lot, I hope for them. That is no important quesrtion to me. 4. What proof is there that the I Ching is more accurate than chance? No one, no more than anybody will be able to proof that what Rembrandt has painted is an ‘accurate description’ of reality. Too bad if an art needs proofs (too bad for those who need proofs, i mean). Art has never any. 5. Have you used the I Ching? What do you think of the accuracy of the readings in providing you guidance to your questions? I use it everyday since 22 years by now. I Think that yi’s accuracy is the same that the one of a compass for a lonesome traveller. 6. Do you personally know of others who use the I Ching on a regular basis? What do they think of the accuracy? Yes I do. Some of them think like me, these are the ones I share with. The others, I listen to what they have to say, but I don’t try no more to argue. Youthfull folly. 7. What are the importance historical points about the I Ching? To me : 1 : the period where in ancient China, the Yi was an emperors’ tool. Just to be reminded and used comparatively with today. 2 : the moment when it came to West, which is as much ilmportant than the moment when compass came to West (beginning of great travels). 3 : the intemporal fact that, in any time of history, for the Yi history matters less than the instant present. 8. Do you think that the I Ching will begin to be used by more people as a source of guidance? Certainly, as anything else : cars, polls, Beatles’ records covers, web, etc. It doesn’t matter at all. 9. Are there ways of proving the I Ching's validity? No. 10. What do you think the best source of information on the I Ching is? Any translation of the text, and a daily practice. In a nutshell, one self. The rest is litterature. Regards to all, Jp ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. From owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Tue Apr 18 17:51:49 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA06933 for hexagram-8-outgoing; Tue, 18 Apr 2000 17:51:49 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: apocalypse.org: majordom set sender to owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org using -f Received: from pandora.worldonline.nl (pandora.worldonline.nl [195.241.48.140]) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA06928 for ; Tue, 18 Apr 2000 17:51:48 -0400 Received: from oemcomputer (vp219-163.worldonline.nl [195.241.219.163]) by pandora.worldonline.nl (Postfix) with SMTP id F357E36B92; Tue, 18 Apr 2000 23:57:20 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <000201bfa980$c8ac3420$a3dbf1c3@oemcomputer> From: "Frank Coolen" To: Cc: "Hexagram - 8" Subject: HEX8: Re: Questions on the I Ching Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2000 19:22:12 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- Van: ama@innocent.com Aan: chh@mension.com CC: ddiamond@ozemail.com.au Datum: dinsdag 11 april 2000 23:37 Onderwerp: Questions on the I Ching >Hello, my name is Amanda Maestro-Scherer. I am writing a research paper on the I Ching. I visited your website, and I was wondering if you would be willing to answer several questions on the I Ching for me. If you could, it would help me tremendously. > >1. Why exactly does the I Ching work? (if this question can be answered) Well that's what I call a philosophical question :-D For me I think the "why" is not that easy answered. Does it work, because it brings us to our inner consious...? Does it work because there is something between heaven and earth...? I think at least one of the reasons why the I Ching works is because somehow it gives us the oppurtinity to look at things from a different point of view. There is probably a "basic" knowledge, collected in the I Ching that can fill in all the questions you have in life. Maybe a "universal language"...? Just as we know "red" is a sign for stopping and love, the words used in the I Ching, or the symbols used inthere are the basis for every answer you could imagine. The man and women who created the I Ching are realy genius! >2. Why has it survived for thousands of years? Because it works! Simple :-D Why don't the americans no longer use the 8-track that much...? Because it did not work...:-D >3. Who in China still uses the I Ching as a source of guidance? Mao did, maybe Jiang Zemin does it too... There are groups of philosophers who still uses the I Ching, or discuss it. Frequently, especially in Hong Kong, Taiwan and Singapore (sometimes Malaysia) I Ching books are published, as in the West... We had a "Yi-Boom" in the middle 90's... Here in the Netherlands every month came a new I Ching book. That has been replaced by Feng Shui these days, although it looks like that has had it's best times too. But there will be another Chinese thing for replacement, I trust... >4. What proof is there that the I Ching is more accurate than chance? By Chance you want to know how much something is happening. The I Ching tells you what happens, and sometimes when. That's a difference. Even when you desite to use the I Ching as a phylosophical tool, the "what and when" could give you a start to go for something, unconsiously. Chance only gives numbers, and does not ring a bell what so ever... When you start something it is always closer to a accuracy, then just plain numbering, don't you think? >5. Have you used the I Ching? What do you think of the accuracy of the readings in providing you guidance to your questions? I used, and still use, the I Ching extensifly. The accuracy is amazing. Even when I disite not to follow up what it says to me, a few weeks later, when I read the answer, I'm amazed I did exacty, or something happened exactly as the I Ching told me... Just by looking out a window, and thinking on a hexagram of the I Ching, I can make a train stop (realy happened: 12 Stand Still!):-D >6. Do you personally know of others who use the I Ching on a regular basis? What do they think of the accuracy? I know there are some people in the Netherlands using it, mosty alone. I'm one of the initiators to try to get a group out of it, was a member of the editing cast of two I Ching magazines, but people probably want to live on islands, and in private as you do not hear much of them. There are a lot of other people around Europe, or the world who use the I Ching, more then you know... and there are also a lot of sites on the Internet about the subject, and at least 3 or 4 mailinglists. These answers are, besides to you, also to one of these lists (read the CC...) I told you already about the accuracy :-D... >7. What are the importance historical points about the I Ching? Acording to legend: 2852 - 2738 BC Fu Xi invents the Trigrams (parts of the symbols of the IChing) 1122 BC - King Wen writes, while in prisonment, the Judgements to the Hexagrams of the I Ching - Around the same time, his fourth son Tan, duke of Chou, writes the line-texts Acording to fact: +/- 1200 BC - On "tortoise oracle bones" sighns that looks like trigrams are shown. Comments on the sighns are written down in what seems to look like the very first froms of Chinese writing. 671 BC - The, untill these days, oldest recording of an I Ching consultation, mentioned in the Zuo Zhuan, the Zuo commentary. +/- 285 BC - Zou Yan forms the yin / yang polarity and five elements-school, atributes that became an important part of the using of the I Ching later in time. +/- 200 BC - Tian He and his disciples are writing the most famous commentary on the I Ching: the "Ten Wings". It's is not shure if they wrote them all, but probably more correct they only wrote the first of the ten wings, who are to believed to me made, these days, but that can change, between 250 BC and 100 AD +/- 100 BC - Meng Xi connects I Ching to Chinese solar calendar. His disciple Jiao Yanshou, uses the concept to make the "Forest of Change", the "Yilin" +/- 50 BC - Jing Fang, disciple of Jiao Yanshou, invents the "Eight Houses" of the I Ching. 247 AD - Wang Bi writes comment on I Ching. Standard till the middle ages +/- 700 - Yi Xing writes the "Gua Yi", "meaning of the hexagrams", and he expands Meng Xi's work by extracting smaller periods inside the connection of the I Ching and the Chinese solar calendar 1062 / 71 - Shao Yung writes his "World Ordering Principle", based (a.o.) on the works of Meng Xi +/- 1075 - Cheng Yi writes "Tao of Organisation" (translated by Thomas Cleary in 1988) +/- 1175 - Chu Xi becomes one of the greatest philosophers on the I Ching by writing comments on it, clearing again (Wang Bi was the first one) all the "rubish" from the Main sources of the I Ching. His views of dealing with the I Ching, from trowing of the coins, using the millfoil, till how to read and use the I Ching, are still used today. 18 October 1697 - Bouvet writes to Leibnitz about the I Ching. First apearance of the Yi in the West! 1876 - Canon McClatchie publishes first major translation of the I Ching in English. 1924 - Richard Wilhelm writes the first translation in German, which is translated in 19?? by Cary Baynes into English. It's THEY standard I Ching up to now still, even when there are better I Ching translations, or lay-outs... 2000 - You start to ask questions about the I Ching and I respond :-D >8. Do you think that the I Ching will begin to be used by more people as a source of guidance? I surely hope so...:-D But the edge between the regular people (work, career, car, house, kids, social life, free time, money, money, money, they just want it all...) and the alternatives (a smaller house, part time jobs, health and care instead of career and money, go by train, bus and bycicle... Freedom, sometimes NO kids...) is growing larger... Maybe we need it more, but it depends on which group will be the market leader in the 21st century... >9. Are there ways of proving the I Ching's validity? As long as you have confidence in yourself, why shouldn't you have it in the I Ching, as YOU are the one using it...? >10. What do you think the best source of information on the I Ching is? - Richard Wilhelm - "I Ching" for the original translation in english (by Cary Baynes, Wilhelm is a german) - Richard Lynn - "Classic of Changes" for another English translation, by an american proffesor - Edward Hacker - "I Ching Handbook" for background information, and probably easier to get in the states then another book... - William de Fancourt - "Warp and Weft" for the historical view (facts) >Thank you very much for your time. If you could reply to this email it would be very, very helpful for my paper. Thanks again! You're welcome. On behalve of all of us, I think :-D, I would like to thank you for these questions. Made me wander... Frank Coolen (Frank I :-D?) ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. From owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Fri Apr 21 14:04:54 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA16989 for hexagram-8-outgoing; Fri, 21 Apr 2000 14:04:54 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: apocalypse.org: majordom set sender to owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org using -f Received: from vanzetti.monitor.net ([199.4.126.195]) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA16984 for ; Fri, 21 Apr 2000 14:04:52 -0400 From: danu@monitor.net Received: from [199.4.126.241] (rp33.pm3.monitor.net [199.4.126.241]) by vanzetti.monitor.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA14221; Fri, 21 Apr 2000 07:50:50 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: danu@mail.monitor.net (Unverified) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2000 07:49:31 -0700 To: "List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works" Subject: HEX8: Timely New WebPage: 15 Stations Of The Cross Cc: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by apocalypse.org id OAA16986 Sender: owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Hi all, The excerpted description below is taken from my latest WebPage: http://www.CritPath.org/~strucky/danu/15Stations.html This is a remarkable example of hitherto unrevealed exact correspondence between a strict geometrical progression of structural transformations and a traditional account of religious metaphor for spritual transformation. The traditional planetary and mythological names and meanings from both West (Astrology) and East (I Ching Hexagrams), as well as the Northern alchemical Body Chakras, are also closely correlated and referenced in the Bold-face descriptions of each of the 15 Stations. Please note this is NOT just a seeking of the best selection from the complete list of each of the various traditions and finding the best fit to each of the 15 Stations; it is a precise correspondence of one strict and exact mathematical sequence (based upon the Jitterbug Transformation of Duals) with the other series of dramatic incidents (from scriptural accounts), as discovered inevitably by a simple application of the Syntopian ChromArcheTet of Synergetic Topology. May you Feast your I's And Feed your Head, SeaSON'S greetings, --danu ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. From owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Sun Apr 23 14:32:42 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA27658 for hexagram-8-outgoing; Sun, 23 Apr 2000 14:32:42 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: apocalypse.org: majordom set sender to owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org using -f Received: from imo25.mx.aol.com (imo25.mx.aol.com [152.163.225.69]) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA27654 for ; Sun, 23 Apr 2000 14:32:41 -0400 From: FKegan@aol.com Received: from FKegan@aol.com by imo25.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v25.3.) id h.3a.427d2a6 (3889) for ; Sun, 23 Apr 2000 14:37:36 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <3a.427d2a6.26349cef@aol.com> Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2000 14:37:35 EDT Subject: HEX8: Re: Geodesic universals To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Windows sub 104 Sender: owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Hi all, Seems a bit quiet on Hex-8. The recent post copied here of "exact correspondence" between the Platonic solids as rendered in a Bucky Fuller perspective and one interpretation of the 15 stations of the cross reflects a long tradition of finding in the set of solid figures of increasing sides the structural secret to whatever one might be seeking. I suspect this ultimately rests upon that series tending toward a general integral function. The only part of his website which seems intelligible to those not in his cult, was his remark about the various sequences of hexagrams in traditional I Ching diagrams as being "even more random" than... He seems totally content to use only the most ancient Yi notions, that of the trigrams as binary counters and then continues his work with the numbers 0-15. Not quite as sophisticated as the Chinese patterns before the King Wen sequence, but getting there. Frank ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. From owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Mon Apr 24 09:37:24 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA03060 for hexagram-8-outgoing; Mon, 24 Apr 2000 09:37:24 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: apocalypse.org: majordom set sender to owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org using -f Received: from imo17.mx.aol.com (imo17.mx.aol.com [152.163.225.7]) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA03055 for ; Mon, 24 Apr 2000 09:37:23 -0400 From: Autorbis@aol.com Received: from Autorbis@aol.com by imo17.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v25.3.) id h.35.43c2488 (3896) for ; Mon, 24 Apr 2000 09:42:11 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <35.43c2488.2635a932@aol.com> Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2000 09:42:10 EDT Subject: HEX8: Chinese language To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0.i for Windows sub 85 Sender: owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Hi Frank, sorry, I'm busy, so my answer is a little late. << Greetings Lothar, Yes, Solomon Ben Judah Ibn Gabirol was known in medieval Europe through the Latin translation of his name (and his philosophical work, Fons Vitae) as Avicebron who was generally thought to be Muslim or Christian since he did not cite Torah or other Jewish scripture. It was a work of late 19th century scholarship to fi