From owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Tue May 2 06:18:55 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id GAA29932 for hexagram-8-outgoing; Tue, 2 May 2000 06:18:55 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: apocalypse.org: majordom set sender to owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org using -f Received: from imo18.mx.aol.com (imo18.mx.aol.com [152.163.225.8]) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id GAA29928 for ; Tue, 2 May 2000 06:18:54 -0400 From: Autorbis@aol.com Received: from Autorbis@aol.com by imo18.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v26.7.) id h.e4.459d846 (3888) for ; Tue, 2 May 2000 06:24:50 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: Date: Tue, 2 May 2000 06:24:50 EDT Subject: Re: HEX8: Chinese language and the printing press To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0.i for Windows sub 85 Sender: owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Hi Frank, << Hi Lothar, The printing press and eye glasses are often cited as great ingredients of European development. Both can also be seen as just adaptations to the destruction of the Black Death which reduced the number of folks available with education enough to read and write. Those cultures where clerks read to the scholar don't need eye glasses and where there are many scribes machines are not required to write books. Diamond Jared studied the question of why Europe came to dominate the world while other cultures were generally more sophisticated. The answer seems to come down, not to Jumbo Jets, but to cannon on ships which were developed to supply grain to cities unable to feed themselves due to the geography of Europe. That firepower and cargo capacity made for maritime conquest, and the Ideology of Adventure which saw value as being elsewhere and only available to those who went off and took it gave the motivation. The Chinese developed great fleets, but never the interest to keep up conquest for any period of time. ### China had its try to explore the world under the followers of Dschingis Khan in a rather excessive way. When the Mongolish dynasties had broken down, accompanied by a lot of social revolutions, this politic changed with the time (probably as a result of the inner destruction, which gave a strong desire "to return to tradition"). In the first half of 15th century the Chinese still had the greatest ships of the world and travelled as far as Africa, although it is reported, that "Chinese were not allowed to travel to foreign countries since 1371" and that even "coast-shipping was forbidden in early 15th century" (a rule, that was changed slowly since the middle of 16th century). Generally it is said, that "China lost its creativity in this time". The Chinese had historically also an interest to explore the world, but the inner structure to do so was missing at the time, when the Europeans started their development. And the Europeans started that development, when the earlier trading routes (Venezia, Genua) where blocked cause the strong Osmanian power. The weak Europeans couldn't go to the East, so they explored the West. The Osmanians caught Konstantinople in 1453 and were before Vienna at the beginning of 16th century. ### ### I doubt that the great plague of 1348 can be seen as a reason for literary development. "Reading" and "Writing" of people not connected immediately to the church depended on the development of cities. Farmers on the countryside doesn't need it, but citizens. The general city-development had also a "positive" influence on the development of Black Death, of course. Missing canalization, bathing houses, prostitution, travellers etc. However, one has to consider, that the greatest library of Europe of Charles V. (- 1380) in France had only around 1000 books (probably I've more than this), and the existing book lists show, that these were mostly books for religious matters (under them for instance around 20 versions of the apocalypse). And probably not many people had the opportunity to visit this library and to read these books. But reading and writing was used to edit the city records and all these other stuff. The development of universities was also bound to the general city development. Import of grain was always an important problem for greater cities. Rome already imported grain from Egyptia, without cannons. The Chinese also had cannons. They defended with them their cities against the nomades of the West. ### Lothar Lothar ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. From owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Wed May 3 13:53:22 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA29829 for hexagram-8-outgoing; Wed, 3 May 2000 13:53:22 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: apocalypse.org: majordom set sender to owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org using -f Received: from m4.boston.juno.com (m4.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.198]) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA29824 for ; Wed, 3 May 2000 13:53:21 -0400 Received: from cookie.juno.com by cookie.juno.com for <"wGHpIqJP/T4t41p17Rw9ppkHRjqD+i+oqAcHFQH8F+O/bkaM3MpG5A=="> Received: (from syrnest@juno.com) by m4.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id E66P9CX4; Wed, 03 May 2000 13:51:38 EDT To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Date: Wed, 3 May 2000 13:52:33 -0400 Subject: Re: HEX8: Re: ancient and universal Message-ID: <20000503.135234.-664761.0.syrnest@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 4.0.5 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-1,11-12,25-26,38-39,50-51,59-60,66-67,69-70,72-103 X-Juno-Att: 0 X-Juno-RefParts: 0 From: Kevin M Renaud Sender: owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Namaste!! Although not much on the list is of interset to me of late, thus I tend to only dl it once a month or so, this caught my eye. IMHO, the evidence thae Western Thought is collasping, or was never valid in the first place, has become overwhelming, and certainly I see many ppl in research trying hard to "make it fit". Point in fact, human evidence in Jurrasic Period? Yep, the find is solid, or at least by Western Standards it is as solid as any other. Is history valid? Have the history books been updated to include this interesting tidbit? Not to my knowledge. The last I heard the argument was one of "silence". Is this any way to run a science system? One of the things I have learned from the wonderous yijing is that "science" and "knowledge" (including history) is completely subjective. I have difficult time accepting this, to be sure. For instance, I have a friend who says that one day history changed, every book on every library shelf, and every notion of history. He claims he "knows" this because he remembers the "old" history, and sees the contradictions in events. Do I believe him? Well, yes and no. I cannot believe him, since history seems to me to be coherent and the "facts" I know seem to be "stable". But, his argument brings me to a point of pondering, in relation to the yijing and the "science" it presents. Is it possible that several "histories" exist side by side, and it is a subjective process that "selects" one over the other? What of Physics? Is it the same? THere is much evidence that at the micro-level this may well be true. Example, I have here a glass of water. We will say, for arguments sake, it is absolutely pure. What would the West say of the question "what is this?" It is 2 parts hydrogen to every part of oxygen. In the West science is determined, in our water expereiment, by a list of "elements" called the periodic tables. All experience of "the real world" is related to that. Now in the East, if I were to accomplish the same task, I would ask the yijing "What is this?" and I would receive an answer that put the water in relation to me, to now, to this space/time, and relevent ONLY to my experience. If you asked the same, you "might" get different answer. Since Eastern Science is based on relationship, polarity and experience of the individual, and the map only marks the "process" of Qi the actual "facts" become less important, if having any importance at all. There is no doubt that the immortals have been saying this all along, it is the basic fact of all enlightenment. "If you see Buddah on the road, kill him." In light of where Western Thought has brought us, and I mean in strictly acedamic terms, that is, how it functions as a coherent system, I believe it is possible for me to take a wider stance, to believe, for instance, that Godel was right, and math is invalid at some unknowable point, and there has to be a "higher" form of knowing that excludes all "false statements". The fact that the yijing, in it's very essence, is recursive (and according to the AI ppl, this is WHY Godel's theory works, math is not recursive) makes it, at least at this level, more complete (at least it defeates Godel, lmao). Where does that leave us though? My poor friend, who says the Stock Market never crashed in 1929 in his "history" is no better than us, we equally are living in a fantasy, ours is considered "better" by what? Agreeing on a system that, in it's very esssence, is invalid? How are we any different from him? But what is the alternative? Widely varing math systems? 3 billion different versions of history? Will we be left guessing at how to boil water? There are things that work, and things that don't, and little explaination to why any of it happens that way. The yijing, more ancient than any other text on the Earth, left to us by those "not human" entities that graced our lives some 5 or 6 thousand years ago, has at least an answer. Pragmatic and simple, try it, if it works use it, if it doesn't discard it, be yourself, and let no one decieve you! Thou Art God! Believe it, and the Universe will make sense to you (although your Universe may contain slight variations from mine). When we close ourselves off to the possibility that we are wrong, then the only thing that can be said for us is we will never br right. On Tue, 28 Mar 2000 12:44:31 steve@fortstudy.win-uk.net (Steve Moore) writes: > Hi Frank, > > About this: > > > I make no claim about what happened in actual history. The > evidence > >keeps piling up that none of the claims of what happened long ago > are > >actually valid, > > I'm sorry you seem to have a problem with orthodox scholarship, but > if you think it's okay to reject what we know of the historical > record, and the findings of modern scholarship in sinology, > archaeology, etc., then I guess we're "speaking different > languages", and probably don't have a lot to say to each other. > > Maybe we can have a meaningful conversation in a future life! :-) > > All the best, > > Steve > > > > > > > ===== > To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to > majordomo@apocalypse.org > from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. From owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Wed May 3 14:14:32 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA00487 for hexagram-8-outgoing; Wed, 3 May 2000 14:14:32 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: apocalypse.org: majordom set sender to owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org using -f Received: from condor.nrl.navy.mil (condor.nrl.navy.mil [132.250.50.29]) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA00483 for ; Wed, 3 May 2000 14:14:31 -0400 Received: by condor.nrl.navy.mil with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.10) id ; Wed, 3 May 2000 14:21:34 -0400 Message-ID: <01210C074526D2118AB800A0C98439F57DFAD1@condor.nrl.navy.mil> From: "Gait, Christopher" To: "'hexagram-8@apocalypse.org'" Subject: RE: HEX8: Re: ancient and universal Date: Wed, 3 May 2000 14:21:30 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.10) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org > The yijing, more ancient than any other text on the Earth, > left to us by those "not human" entities that graced our lives some 5 or 6 > thousand years ago, has at least an answer. Fascinating post, Kevin. Thank you. I was with you, reading avidly, right up to the above statement. What do you mean by "not human" entities? Also, where do you get a figure of 5-6 thousand years for the text? I haven't heard of anything plausible before about 3,800 years ago. Mind you, I don't exclude the possibility of it predating the Shang Dynasty, but I don't know of any evidence for it's existence in text form before the Chou period (especially since what we have has always been known as the Chou Yi). Regards, Chris Gait ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. From owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Sun May 7 09:38:57 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA14603 for hexagram-8-outgoing; Sun, 7 May 2000 09:38:57 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: apocalypse.org: majordom set sender to owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org using -f Received: from rhea.worldonline.nl (rhea.worldonline.nl [195.241.48.139]) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA14599 for ; Sun, 7 May 2000 09:38:56 -0400 Received: from oemcomputer (vp195-254.worldonline.nl [195.241.195.254]) by rhea.worldonline.nl (Postfix) with SMTP id BC15036D52 for ; Sun, 7 May 2000 15:38:54 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <001601bfb829$4dae4620$fec3f1c3@oemcomputer> From: "Frank Coolen" To: "Hexagram - 8" Subject: Re: HEX8: timing Date: Sun, 7 May 2000 15:36:51 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- Van: diane haldane Aan: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Datum: zondag 30 april 2000 17:40 Onderwerp: HEX8: timing >hi all, >does someone have a method to ask the i >ching when is the best time to undertake >something, or indeed to undertake it at >all? Hi Diane, There are several ways of "timing" in the I Ching: - Mentioned in the lines: "On your own day..." (H-49); "Three days before, three days after..." (H-18) - As an attribute of one of the Trigrams: For example H-30 is in the summer (Sunny sunny...) - As position in the I Ching calendar. H-30 is the summersolstice... On what ocasion do you want to know, maybe I can be of some help.You may want to answer me in private if you want to :-D Regards Frank C ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. From owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Sun May 7 14:28:00 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA01250 for hexagram-8-outgoing; Sun, 7 May 2000 14:28:00 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: apocalypse.org: majordom set sender to owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org using -f Received: from imo13.mx.aol.com (imo13.mx.aol.com [152.163.225.3]) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA01241 for ; Sun, 7 May 2000 14:27:59 -0400 From: FKegan@aol.com Received: from FKegan@aol.com by imo13.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v26.7.) id h.ca.455dcae (3869) for ; Sun, 7 May 2000 14:27:39 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: Date: Sun, 7 May 2000 14:27:38 EDT Subject: Re: HEX8: Re: ancient and universal To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Windows sub 104 Sender: owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Hi Kevin, Finally having a bit of free time and there being very little on Hex 8 of late I have the opportunity to respond to your post which included part of a thread involving my thoughts on history. One of the great notions of current postmodern thought and cognitive psych is that humans relate to narrative and have a remarkably tough time with naked facts. Literally, facts refer to things that have happened (the emphasis solely upon past tense and thus complete and unalterable) and history to a narrative of known events (basically the story told about events, like Herotodus who wasn't just repeating the facts but publishing a narrative with a purpose, to keep the example of the victory over Persia and alive and active in Athenian youth. The aspect missing in your discussion is the limits and process of the human mind which must mediate with the "facts" or "science" and is either ignored (Western notions) or included (Eastern) in philosophy. The East notes our perceptions and the mental appearances are as much part of our knowledge and philosophy as anything in the objective world. Western thought has been trying to work within a theological model, so its interest was learning what God or metaphysical angels see or know and thus ignore the limits of mere mortals. The word "science" with all its great importance in Western thought can be taken as simply "scientia" the Latin word St. Thomas Aquinas chose to translate "Book" when working on making the classical edition of Aristotle as a great teacher of Rhetoric into a figure whose who could be taught even though he was pagan on the grounds he was describing how God constructed reality. I had a bit of difficulty with your remarks about absolutely pure water. In Chemistry class they made quite a point of what a strong solvent chemically pure water was, and how it required the most sophisticated of containers since otherwise it would dissolve a bit of whatever it touched to be not quite totally pure. Of course, your remarks, although referring to science and reality were actually narrative about a glass of common water. But then, if it is only narrative and not related to objective fact, how does it become science or philosophy? In terms of the Yi, one of the remarkable things isn't how old it might be or whether it was King Wen or far more ancient and exotic creatures who created it; rather it is that the patterns and their sequence have the ability to express, relate and correlate to a wide range of similar pattern systems. It seems that beyond the great East/West perspective which originally expressed the conflict between Alexander and Persia and later the British Imperial maritime trade regime there is a far more general and universal contrast. That is, between those who find that all life arises from the interaction of sunshine with Earth Geography, and those find all truth in some narrative text of Holy Scripture. In the West, science is one of those things derived from Holy Scripture (though the debate between various interpretations has led to the notion Science is opposite to Religion rather than just being one text interpretation deriding another). In other cultures the study of how sunshine changes and cycles and the resultant cycles of human experience and perception gives rise to the Yi and other symbol systems of very concrete representation and definite correspondence. Each comes to choose their own perspective, believe their own narrative and from that find their own facts, history, romance or other words to describe narrative detail. Frank K. ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. From owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Wed May 10 14:48:42 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA23500 for hexagram-8-outgoing; Wed, 10 May 2000 14:48:42 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: apocalypse.org: majordom set sender to owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org using -f Received: from psmtp2.dnsg.net (psmtp2.dnsg.net [193.168.128.42]) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id OAA23495 for ; Wed, 10 May 2000 14:48:40 -0400 Received: (qmail 4093 invoked from network); 10 May 2000 20:49:04 +0200 Received: from unknown (HELO metronet.de) (62.54.64.181) by psmtp2.dnsg.net with SMTP; 10 May 2000 20:49:04 +0200 Message-ID: <000701bfbaab$2e8e12a0$b540363e@de> From: "Marianne.Goeppel" To: References: <001601bfb829$4dae4620$fec3f1c3@oemcomputer> Subject: Re: HEX8: John Cage and I Ching Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 20:10:57 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Hi all, The work of John Cage, who grounded a larger part of his compositions (and paintings) upon I Ching oracle operations, has stirred my curiosity and interest for some time now. The material I've come across so far, never fail to mention his special connection to the I Ching. However, I have not yet encountered any writings giving special attention to this aspect, e.g. publication of work notes or closer description of his methods to interpret the hexagrams artistically, like tables he set up to translate the oracles into figures, notes, colours, materials etc. does anyone on the list know something about this? Marianne ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. From owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Wed May 10 15:22:22 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA26633 for hexagram-8-outgoing; Wed, 10 May 2000 15:22:22 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: apocalypse.org: majordom set sender to owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org using -f Received: from areca.wanadoo.fr (smtp-rt-4.wanadoo.fr [193.252.19.156]) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA26629 for ; Wed, 10 May 2000 15:22:20 -0400 Received: from mahonia.wanadoo.fr (193.252.19.58) by areca.wanadoo.fr; 10 May 2000 21:22:52 +0200 Received: from [193.250.94.9] (193.250.94.62) by mahonia.wanadoo.fr; 10 May 2000 21:22:27 +0200 From: Kirk McElhearn To: I Ching list Subject: Re(2): HEX8: John Cage and I Ching Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 21:15:49 +0200 Message-Id: <20000510191549.31070@smtp.wanadoo.fr> In-Reply-To: <000701bfbaab$2e8e12a0$b540363e@de> References: <000701bfbaab$2e8e12a0$b540363e@de> X-Mailer: CTM PowerMail 3.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org On 10/05/00, at 20:10, Marianne.Goeppel Marianne.Goeppel@debitel.net said: >The work of John Cage, who grounded a larger part of his compositions >(and paintings) upon I Ching oracle operations, has stirred my curiosity >and interest for some time now. The material I've come across so far, >never fail to mention his special connection to the I Ching. >However, I have not yet encountered any writings giving special attention >to this aspect, e.g. publication of work notes or closer description of his >methods >to interpret the hexagrams artistically, like tables he set up to translate >the >oracles into figures, notes, colours, materials etc. >does anyone on the list know something about this? Sure do. I interviewed Cage in 1986, for the French journal Hexagrammes. It was an interesting experience. I had corresponded with him for a while, and met him, at his appartment, in New York at Chrismastime. Entering his appartment was quite surprising - it was in an unassuming building on west 21st street, off 6th avenue. If you know the area, it is a pretty uninteresting part of Manhattan. He lived on the 5th or 6th floor. He met us at the door, and showed us in, a wide smile on his face. In his kitchen was an American Flag painting by Jasper Johns. Then, to get to the living room, we crossed through a small "Japanese garden", with winding flagstones on the floor, and water flowing somewhere. Bamboo trees filled this room, together with other plants. We went into the living room and sat down. He offered us tea. More paintings decorated the walls, of all kinds of modern American painters. We began talking about the I Ching, and other things (in particular James Joyce, who we both appreciated - he invited us to come to a gallery the next day where he would be beginning a marathon reading of Finnegans Wake). I set up my tape recorder, and we started the interview. I asked a bit about how he discovered the I Ching, how he worked with it, etc. He showed me a score he was working on, and said he would give me a demonstration. He called out to his assistant, asking him for a number (he gave the assistant some kind of info as to what kind of number he wanted; I don't recall this). His assistant came over to him with a slip of paper, and he wrote a note on the score. That's all. Actually, I was both surprised and disappointed that he merely used the I Ching as a random number generator, rather than exploring any internal coherence of the hexagrams. His approach was very formal, very technical, with no room for interpretation at all. He did not read the text, but merely computed. Were he still alive today, he would probably just program it all on a computer, from the calculation to the scoring. While I left Cage with a feeling of disappointment, I will never forget the twinkle in his sprightly blue eyes, and the way he answered my questions - he didn't seem to consider himself important, and he paused a couple of seconds before each answer, and then spoke as if he had spent an hour placing each word in the right place. The next evening we went to listen to him recite the first chapter of Finnegans Wake. It too was a beautiful experience, his voice added music to the text. I felt a deep pang of regret when he died. Even though I am not a big fan of his music, I have a great deal of respect for the ways that he approached both music and text. His books are full of similar "tricks", but the texts are often quite interesting. Shortly after meeting Cage, I met with the American choreographer Carolyn Carlson for the first time - I interviewed her a second time a few years later. If you are interested, I can tell you a bit about her approach as well.... BTW, I will see if I can find the original texts in English about Cage. All I can find right away is the French translations. If I can find them, I'll let you all know. Kirk vice versa Translations - French to English, English to French | Technical Writing Traductions francais-anglais, anglais-francais | Redaction technique . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . kirk@mcelhearn.com http://www.mcelhearn.com Kirk McElhearn | Chemin de la Lauze | 05600 Guillestre | France ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. From owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Wed May 10 18:11:44 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA08361 for hexagram-8-outgoing; Wed, 10 May 2000 18:11:44 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: apocalypse.org: majordom set sender to owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org using -f Received: from psmtp1.dnsg.net (psmtp1.dnsg.net [193.168.128.41]) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id SAA08357 for ; Wed, 10 May 2000 18:11:43 -0400 Received: (qmail 4981 invoked from network); 11 May 2000 00:12:17 +0200 Received: from unknown (HELO metronet.de) (62.54.66.132) by psmtp1.dnsg.net with SMTP; 11 May 2000 00:12:17 +0200 Message-ID: <000e01bfbac7$92b72e80$8442363e@de> From: "Marianne.Goeppel" To: References: <000701bfbaab$2e8e12a0$b540363e@de> <20000510191549.31070@smtp.wanadoo.fr> Subject: Re: HEX8: John Cage and I Ching Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 23:34:15 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Hi Kirk, hi all, This is very interesting and stimulating, to hear about your personal encounter with John Cage. I heard a reading of Cage, too, on a public video performance some years ago. He read no Joyce, but a "text" with words and sentences completely mixed up, so it didn't make any sense at all. I don't remember which original text he had used for this. He spoke in a very serious and slow manner, with many pauses. I remember how carefully and concentrated his hands turned the sheets and how utterly meaningful he looked. "Silence" is a book I like much. I also read that he was using the I Ching as a mere random number generator, and in the last years of his life, he did indeed use a computer for the chance operations. From the procedure you write about different kinds of numbers, he must have developed an extensive system to classify and structure the operations' outcome. Of course, I would be glad to read the original texts, even in French. As to Carolyn Carlson, I have not heard of her, but the approach of artists working with the I Ging is interesting for me, and I would like to to know more about it. Marianne -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht----- Von: Kirk McElhearn An: I Ching list Gesendet: Mittwoch, 10. Mai 2000 21:15 Betreff: Re(2): HEX8: John Cage and I Ching > On 10/05/00, at 20:10, Marianne.Goeppel Marianne.Goeppel@debitel.net said: > > >The work of John Cage, who grounded a larger part of his compositions > >(and paintings) upon I Ching oracle operations, has stirred my curiosity > >and interest for some time now. The material I've come across so far, > >never fail to mention his special connection to the I Ching. > >However, I have not yet encountered any writings giving special attention > >to this aspect, e.g. publication of work notes or closer description of his > >methods > >to interpret the hexagrams artistically, like tables he set up to translate > >the > >oracles into figures, notes, colours, materials etc. > >does anyone on the list know something about this? > > Sure do. I interviewed Cage in 1986, for the French journal Hexagrammes. > > It was an interesting experience. I had corresponded with him for a > while, and met him, at his appartment, in New York at Chrismastime. > > Entering his appartment was quite surprising - it was in an unassuming > building on west 21st street, off 6th avenue. If you know the area, it > is a pretty uninteresting part of Manhattan. He lived on the 5th or 6th > floor. He met us at the door, and showed us in, a wide smile on his face. > > In his kitchen was an American Flag painting by Jasper Johns. Then, to > get to the living room, we crossed through a small "Japanese garden", > with winding flagstones on the floor, and water flowing somewhere. > Bamboo trees filled this room, together with other plants. > > We went into the living room and sat down. He offered us tea. More > paintings decorated the walls, of all kinds of modern American painters. > > We began talking about the I Ching, and other things (in particular James > Joyce, who we both appreciated - he invited us to come to a gallery the > next day where he would be beginning a marathon reading of Finnegans Wake). > > I set up my tape recorder, and we started the interview. I asked a bit > about how he discovered the I Ching, how he worked with it, etc. He > showed me a score he was working on, and said he would give me a > demonstration. He called out to his assistant, asking him for a number > (he gave the assistant some kind of info as to what kind of number he > wanted; I don't recall this). His assistant came over to him with a slip > of paper, and he wrote a note on the score. That's all. > > Actually, I was both surprised and disappointed that he merely used the I > Ching as a random number generator, rather than exploring any internal > coherence of the hexagrams. His approach was very formal, very > technical, with no room for interpretation at all. He did not read the > text, but merely computed. Were he still alive today, he would probably > just program it all on a computer, from the calculation to the scoring. > > While I left Cage with a feeling of disappointment, I will never forget > the twinkle in his sprightly blue eyes, and the way he answered my > questions - he didn't seem to consider himself important, and he paused a > couple of seconds before each answer, and then spoke as if he had spent > an hour placing each word in the right place. > > The next evening we went to listen to him recite the first chapter of > Finnegans Wake. It too was a beautiful experience, his voice added music > to the text. > > I felt a deep pang of regret when he died. Even though I am not a big fan > of his music, I have a great deal of respect for the ways that he > approached both music and text. His books are full of similar "tricks", > but the texts are often quite interesting. > > Shortly after meeting Cage, I met with the American choreographer Carolyn > Carlson for the first time - I interviewed her a second time a few years > later. If you are interested, I can tell you a bit about her approach as > well.... > > BTW, I will see if I can find the original texts in English about Cage. > All I can find right away is the French translations. If I can find > them, I'll let you all know. > > Kirk > > > vice versa > Translations - French to English, English to French | Technical Writing > Traductions francais-anglais, anglais-francais | Redaction technique > . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . > kirk@mcelhearn.com http://www.mcelhearn.com > Kirk McElhearn | Chemin de la Lauze | 05600 Guillestre | France > > > > ===== > To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org > from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. > > ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. From owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Thu May 11 11:06:19 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA05212 for hexagram-8-outgoing; Thu, 11 May 2000 11:06:19 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: apocalypse.org: majordom set sender to owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org using -f Received: from r1.boston.juno.com (r1.boston.juno.com [63.211.172.45]) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA05208 for ; Thu, 11 May 2000 11:06:18 -0400 Received: from m4.boston.juno.com (m4.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.198]) by r1.boston.juno.com (8.8.6.Beta0/8.8.7/juno-1.2) with ESMTP id IAAAA07181 for ; Thu, 11 May 2000 08:30:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cookie.juno.com by cookie.juno.com for <"wGHpIqJP/T4t41p17Rw9pkrqRJgA/FG/6Lx7jtXTegyRVV6BL+AC/A=="> Received: (from syrnest@juno.com) by m4.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id E7SQW4B6; Thu, 11 May 2000 08:28:19 EDT To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 08:29:55 -0400 Subject: Re: HEX8: Re: ancient and universal Message-ID: <20000511.082957.-750371.0.syrnest@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 4.0.5 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-1,9-10,16-17,27-137 X-Juno-Att: 0 X-Juno-RefParts: 0 From: Kevin M Renaud Sender: owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Namaste, beloved! Thank you for your thoughtful response. As I read it I felt you and I are largely on the same page. I agree completely with your statement about humans and facts, particularly, although I would go one step further, the reason that humans have a tough time with facts is that there are none. Facts, like infinity, cause an internal conflict, because in experience there are no "facts". I would be pleased to comtemplate any "fact" that one could present, that would be a statement true in all instances. I have never found one. You misuderstood my example of water, I agree with you about the chemical properties of water (in fact, in another time and place, I could go off topic and get quite weird on that topic). I merely was looking for an example that exhibited an artificial simplicity (that is, a Western Chemical composition that could be stated in a word or two) I probably could have chosen one of the rare gasses (LMAO). Of course your final assertion is it doesn't actually matter. I agree completely. That is the great learning of the Yi. The cnarritive, the facts, the math and the art of life, all of it must be addressed personally, agree to internally, in what Schwaller called "the symbolique" the language beyond language. I think the Yijing is Star Seed, another thinks it is a political tool of the Shang Dynasty, still another credits it to a dozen different sources. What is important is that I learn the message, whatever the narrative, of my existence, and see how the Yijing reflects that. That is the meaning of Divination, which literally means "talking to god(dess)". On Sun, 7 May 2000 14:27:38 EDT FKegan@aol.com writes: > Hi Kevin, > Finally having a bit of free time and there being very little > on Hex 8 > of late I have the opportunity to respond to your post which > included part of > a thread involving my thoughts on history. > One of the great notions of current postmodern thought and > cognitive > psych is that humans relate to narrative and have a remarkably tough > time > with naked facts. Literally, facts refer to things that have > happened (the > emphasis solely upon past tense and thus complete and unalterable) > and > history to a narrative of known events (basically the story told > about > events, like Herotodus who wasn't just repeating the facts but > publishing a > narrative with a purpose, to keep the example of the victory over > Persia and > alive and active in Athenian youth. > The aspect missing in your discussion is the limits and > process of the > human mind which must mediate with the "facts" or "science" and is > either > ignored (Western notions) or included (Eastern) in philosophy. The > East notes > our perceptions and the mental appearances are as much part of our > knowledge > and philosophy as anything in the objective world. Western thought > has been > trying to work within a theological model, so its interest was > learning what > God or metaphysical angels see or know and thus ignore the limits of > mere > mortals. > The word "science" with all its great importance in Western > thought > can be taken as simply "scientia" the Latin word St. Thomas Aquinas > chose to > translate "Book" when working on making the classical edition of > Aristotle as > a great teacher of Rhetoric into a figure whose who could be taught > even > though he was pagan on the grounds he was describing how God > constructed > reality. > I had a bit of difficulty with your remarks about absolutely > pure > water. In Chemistry class they made quite a point of what a strong > solvent > chemically pure water was, and how it required the most > sophisticated of > containers since otherwise it would dissolve a bit of whatever it > touched to > be not quite totally pure. Of course, your remarks, although > referring to > science and reality were actually narrative about a glass of common > water. > But then, if it is only narrative and not related to objective fact, > how does > it become science or philosophy? > In terms of the Yi, one of the remarkable things isn't how old > it might > be or whether it was King Wen or far more ancient and exotic > creatures who > created it; rather it is that the patterns and their sequence have > the > ability to express, relate and correlate to a wide range of similar > pattern > systems. It seems that beyond the great East/West perspective which > > originally expressed the conflict between Alexander and Persia and > later the > British Imperial maritime trade regime there is a far more general > and > universal contrast. That is, between those who find that all life > arises from > the interaction of sunshine with Earth Geography, and those find all > truth in > some narrative text of Holy Scripture. In the West, science is one > of those > things derived from Holy Scripture (though the debate between > various > interpretations has led to the notion Science is opposite to > Religion rather > than just being one text interpretation deriding another). In other > cultures > the study of how sunshine changes and cycles and the resultant > cycles of > human experience and perception gives rise to the Yi and other > symbol systems > of very concrete representation and definite correspondence. > Each comes to choose their own perspective, believe their own > narrative > and from that find their own facts, history, romance or other words > to > describe narrative detail. > Frank K. > > > > ===== > To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to > majordomo@apocalypse.org > from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE.