From owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Fri Sep 29 06:39:58 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id GAA31189 for hexagram-8-outgoing; Fri, 29 Sep 2000 06:39:58 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: apocalypse.org: majordom set sender to owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org using -f Received: from as104.tel.hr (as104.tel.hr [205.219.255.36]) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id GAA31185 for ; Fri, 29 Sep 2000 06:39:55 -0400 Received: from gleep (ad9-m185.tel.hr [195.29.232.185]) by as104.tel.hr (0.0.0/0.0.0) with SMTP id MAA270677 for ; Fri, 29 Sep 2000 12:39:50 +0200 (MEST) Message-ID: <006d01c02a01$79933bc0$b9e81dc3@gleep> From: "Robert Matusan - Boyler" To: Subject: HEX8: new one Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 12:38:04 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-2" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Sender: owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Hi there, Am I in? Is there anybody out there? Well, however...let me introduce myself. My name is Robert Matusan - Boyler. I am from Rijeka, Croatia, Europe, and I am interested in things Chinese (Chinese philosophy, religion, and metaphysics), and "Yijing" is, among these things, my first love. I've read some of Hexagram-8 archives. Is there something new in the world of "Yijing". I have heard the new issue of "Oracle" is available. If anybody is reading this, please give me some sign of life. Wansui! Boyler ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. From owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Fri Sep 29 08:36:13 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA03016 for hexagram-8-outgoing; Fri, 29 Sep 2000 08:36:13 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: apocalypse.org: majordom set sender to owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org using -f Received: from fw.iris.edu (fw.iris.edu [198.77.109.66]) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA03012 for ; Fri, 29 Sep 2000 08:36:12 -0400 Received: from [192.35.78.201] (dmac201.iris.edu [192.35.78.201]) by fw.iris.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA17320 for ; Fri, 29 Sep 2000 08:36:11 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from rbutler@iris.edu) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 08:35:59 -0400 To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org From: "Dr R. Butler" Subject: HEX8: ...and the Tao Sender: owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Hi ! Recently this list has achieved a kind of Taoist perfection of quietness. All the best, Rhett ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. From owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Fri Sep 29 09:57:42 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA07390 for hexagram-8-outgoing; Fri, 29 Sep 2000 09:57:42 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: apocalypse.org: majordom set sender to owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org using -f Received: from tha.express-news.net (tha.express-news.net [204.57.68.10]) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA07386 for ; Fri, 29 Sep 2000 09:57:41 -0400 Received: from 1f0600b ([204.57.69.218]) by tha.express-news.net (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-60526U7500L4800S0V35) with SMTP id net for ; Fri, 29 Sep 2000 08:57:37 -0500 Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.20000929085637.006b163c@127.0.0.1> X-Sender: omei/express-news.net@127.0.0.1 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 08:56:37 -0500 To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org From: omei shan Subject: Re: HEX8: new one In-Reply-To: <006d01c02a01$79933bc0$b9e81dc3@gleep> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Welcome to HEX8! I guess everybody's been busy this summer - No one's posted anything in months! Monica At 12:38 PM 9/29/00 +0200, you wrote: >Hi there, > >Am I in? Is there anybody out there? >Well, however...let me introduce myself. My name is Robert Matusan - Boyler. >I am from Rijeka, Croatia, Europe, and I am interested in things Chinese >(Chinese philosophy, religion, and metaphysics), and "Yijing" is, among >these things, my first love. I've read some of Hexagram-8 archives. >Is there something new in the world of "Yijing". I have heard the new issue >of "Oracle" is available. >If anybody is reading this, please give me some sign of life. > >Wansui! >Boyler > > > > >===== >To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org >from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. > ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. From owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Fri Sep 29 10:07:24 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA08009 for hexagram-8-outgoing; Fri, 29 Sep 2000 10:07:24 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: apocalypse.org: majordom set sender to owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org using -f Received: from amyris.wanadoo.fr (smtp-abo-2.wanadoo.fr [193.252.19.150]) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA08001 for ; Fri, 29 Sep 2000 10:07:16 -0400 Received: from [193.250.94.90] (193.250.94.66) by amyris.wanadoo.fr; 29 Sep 2000 16:07:14 +0200 From: Kirk McElhearn To: I Ching list Subject: Re(2): HEX8: new one Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 16:00:04 +0200 Message-Id: <20000929140004.9008@smtp.wanadoo.fr> In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.20000929085637.006b163c@127.0.0.1> References: <3.0.3.32.20000929085637.006b163c@127.0.0.1> X-Mailer: CTM PowerMail 3.0.4 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org On 29/09/00, at 8:56, omei shan omei@express-news.net said: >Welcome to HEX8! I guess everybody's been busy this summer - No one's >posted anything in months! So that's what happened... I thought I got bumped from the list, and resubbed a few days ago... Kirk vice versa Translations - French to English, English to French | Technical Writing Traductions francais-anglais, anglais-francais | Redaction technique . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . kirk@mcelhearn.com http://www.mcelhearn.com Kirk McElhearn | Chemin de la Lauze | 05600 Guillestre | France ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. From owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Fri Sep 29 10:34:56 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA09987 for hexagram-8-outgoing; Fri, 29 Sep 2000 10:34:56 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: apocalypse.org: majordom set sender to owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org using -f Received: from mail2.rdc1.sfba.home.com (mail2.rdc1.sfba.home.com [24.0.0.75]) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA09982 for ; Fri, 29 Sep 2000 10:34:49 -0400 Received: from Donna ([24.16.38.96]) by mail2.rdc1.sfba.home.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.00 201-229-121) with SMTP id <20000929143443.VSHA6679.mail2.rdc1.sfba.home.com@Donna> for ; Fri, 29 Sep 2000 07:34:43 -0700 From: "Donna Fitzgerald" To: Subject: HEX8: changing lines Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 07:34:44 -0700 Message-ID: <000401c02a22$68ed2300$6501a8c0@stasysinc> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <20000929140004.9008@smtp.wanadoo.fr> Sender: owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Good morning everyone, As the moderator of another list, I always laugh when the group goes radio silent for a while and then reemerges from it's hibernation only to begin chatting about their silence. The quality of a list is directly related to the amount of on topic discussion, so I'll do my best to ask an on topic discussion. Since I joined shortly before the list when silent I apologize in advance if my question is one you've discussed before. I've always been curious about how to interpret the moving lines. Multiple lines conflict lines sometimes seem at odds with the base hexagram and may or may not be at odds with the transformed hexagram On the other time sometimes the line is the only part of the reading that makes sense. I got a reading yesterday where the line seemed to say something I was asking about wasn't going to happen. 35, with line one changing. After asking a few more question I realized that the changing line might have been referring to more future plans and not my immediate question. I'd love to hear others experience. Donna > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org > [mailto:owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org]On Behalf Of Kirk McElhearn > Sent: Friday, September 29, 2000 6:00 AM > To: I Ching list > Subject: Re(2): HEX8: new one > > > On 29/09/00, at 8:56, omei shan omei@express-news.net said: > > >Welcome to HEX8! I guess everybody's been busy this summer - No one's > >posted anything in months! > > So that's what happened... I thought I got bumped from the list, and > resubbed a few days ago... > > Kirk > > vice versa > Translations - French to English, English to French | Technical Writing > Traductions francais-anglais, anglais-francais | Redaction > technique > . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . > . . . . . > kirk@mcelhearn.com http://www.mcelhearn.com > Kirk McElhearn | Chemin de la Lauze | 05600 Guillestre | France > > > > ===== > To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org > from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. > > ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. From owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Fri Sep 29 11:20:56 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA13815 for hexagram-8-outgoing; Fri, 29 Sep 2000 11:20:56 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: apocalypse.org: majordom set sender to owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org using -f Received: from mail.rdc1.ov.nl.home.com (ha1.rdc1.ov.nl.home.com [212.120.66.198]) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA13811 for ; Fri, 29 Sep 2000 11:20:55 -0400 Received: from cc14560a ([212.204.142.215]) by mail.rdc1.ov.nl.home.com (InterMail v4.01.01.00 201-229-111) with SMTP id <20000929152053.MVJ13320.mail.rdc1.ov.nl.home.com@cc14560a> for ; Fri, 29 Sep 2000 17:20:53 +0200 Message-ID: <004a01c02a29$9ed5a080$d78eccd4@groni1.gr.nl.home.com> From: "Cornelis van der Wal" To: References: <000401c02a22$68ed2300$6501a8c0@stasysinc> Subject: HEX8: Re: changing lines Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 17:26:20 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4029.2901 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4029.2901 Sender: owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org ----- Original Message ----- From: "Donna Fitzgerald" To: Sent: Friday, September 29, 2000 4:34 PM Subject: HEX8: changing lines > Good morning everyone, > > As the moderator of another list, I always laugh when the group goes radio > silent for a while and then reemerges from it's hibernation only to begin > chatting about their silence. The quality of a list is directly related to > the amount of on topic discussion, so I'll do my best to ask an on topic > discussion. Since I joined shortly before the list when silent I apologize > in advance if my question is one you've discussed before. > > I've always been curious about how to interpret the moving lines. > > Multiple lines conflict > lines sometimes seem at odds with the base hexagram and may or may not be at > odds with the transformed hexagram > On the other time sometimes the line is the only part of the reading that > makes sense. > > I got a reading yesterday where the line seemed to say something I was > asking about wasn't going to happen. 35, with line one changing. After > asking a few more question I realized that the changing line might have been > referring to more future plans and not my immediate question. > > I'd love to hear others experience. > > Donna > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org > > [mailto:owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org]On Behalf Of Kirk McElhearn > > Sent: Friday, September 29, 2000 6:00 AM > > To: I Ching list > > Subject: Re(2): HEX8: new one > > > > > > On 29/09/00, at 8:56, omei shan omei@express-news.net said: > > > > >Welcome to HEX8! I guess everybody's been busy this summer - No one's > > >posted anything in months! > > > > So that's what happened... I thought I got bumped from the list, and > > resubbed a few days ago... > > > > Kirk Hello Donna and the rest! I found out, in several cases, that the first hexagram was pointing to the future and that the second hexagram, the one that was created trough the changing lines, was telling me more about my present situation. Anyone out there with the same exp.? Cornelis ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. From owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Fri Sep 29 12:59:56 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA21011 for hexagram-8-outgoing; Fri, 29 Sep 2000 12:59:56 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: apocalypse.org: majordom set sender to owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org using -f Received: from tisch.mail.mindspring.net (tisch.mail.mindspring.net [207.69.200.157]) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA20982 for ; Fri, 29 Sep 2000 12:59:55 -0400 From: yulong@mindspring.com Received: from smui5.eng00.mindspring.net (smui5.eng00.mindspring.net [207.69.200.74]) by tisch.mail.mindspring.net (8.9.3/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA19242 for ; Fri, 29 Sep 2000 12:59:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: by smui5.eng00.mindspring.net id MAA0000004065; Fri, 29 Sep 2000 12:59:54 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 12:59:54 -0400 To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Subject: Re: HEX8: changing lines Message-ID: X-Originating-IP: 4.3.90.73 Sender: owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org What does it mean to be at odds with in this passage? Ken ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. From owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Fri Sep 29 14:38:36 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA30561 for hexagram-8-outgoing; Fri, 29 Sep 2000 14:38:36 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: apocalypse.org: majordom set sender to owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org using -f Received: from imo-r11.mail.aol.com (imo-r11.mx.aol.com [152.163.225.65]) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA30555 for ; Fri, 29 Sep 2000 14:38:35 -0400 From: FKegan@aol.com Received: from FKegan@aol.com by imo-r11.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v28.24.) id h.39.ac0b281 (4571) for ; Fri, 29 Sep 2000 14:37:54 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <39.ac0b281.27063b81@aol.com> Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 14:37:53 EDT Subject: HEX8: Re: changing lines To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Windows sub 118 Sender: owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Hi All, Interpreting an oracle is a complex process, particularly if you are basing your reading on the verbal text and its translation of Ancient Chinese poetry and slogans into modern Western language. To the good, an oracle usually produces what you need to know, by whatever means necessary. A Yi hexagram as an oracle is answering your question with a process description. The oracle hexagram is the general process going on in answer to your question. Each hexagram has 6 stages represented by its lines, and an emphasis of one or more of those stages represents a process which rather than continuing on along the path of the original hexagram is tending toward a new process represented by the resultant hexagram. The set of moving lines as a whole become important as they together indicate how your unique process is in transition from one of the 64 stalwarts toward another. In interpreting a single moving line, there is a concentrated focus on the distinction between the line judgment and the overall hexagram judgment. This can be modified a bit by looking at the whole set beginning with the first hexagram (or even its nuclear for where things arose within) and moving toward the second, with the moving line and its position in the oracle hexagram as a clue to what aspect of the process is being stressed. It is always important to remember that the translated commentaries are based upon Ancient Imperial Bureaucrat's perspective, the "modern" commentary begins with Confucius over 2.5 millennia ago. When the text says misfortune, humiliation or bad luck, it means that results will be your personal responsibility and the result of your own initiative. This was certain bad news in Ancient Chinese government posts, and still tends to be dangerous for bureaucrats. Your situation might be different from that. Particularly hexagram 35 which refers to a loyal subordinate gathering forces for the benefit of his superiors in the text. This can also be referred to the Rising Sun or Son and the beginning of a new day. The unfortunate line judgments refer to situations where this new guy on the block might actually be starting something truly new and different. In Ancient Imperial terms that is very bad, but today that might be exactly what you would welcome as great encouragement. Frank R. Kegan ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. From owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Fri Sep 29 16:35:38 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA06935 for hexagram-8-outgoing; Fri, 29 Sep 2000 16:35:38 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: apocalypse.org: majordom set sender to owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org using -f Received: from mail3.one.net (IDENT:0@mail3.one.net [206.112.192.120]) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA06921 for ; Fri, 29 Sep 2000 16:35:36 -0400 Received: from port-cvx1-489.access.one.net ([216.23.14.235] EHLO [216.23.14.235] ident: IDENT-NOT-QUERIED [port 3264]) by mail2.one.net with ESMTP id <67248-6069>; Fri, 29 Sep 2000 16:35:18 -0400 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <000401c02a22$68ed2300$6501a8c0@stasysinc> References: <000401c02a22$68ed2300$6501a8c0@stasysinc> To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org From: Kirk Pennak Subject: Re: HEX8: changing lines Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 16:35:11 -0400 Sender: owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org And howdy, y'all - from yet another new subscriber. Re: the following... >I've always been curious about how to interpret the moving lines. > >Multiple lines conflict >lines sometimes seem at odds with the base hexagram and may or may not be at >odds with the transformed hexagram >On the other time sometimes the line is the only part of the reading that >makes sense. This is a problem that had also bothered me for many years; I've actually been amazed, however, by a method described in Albert Huang's "Complete I Ching" (worth the bucks, by the way)... I won't go into full detail, but Huang (a Taoist Master) describes a method he uses to winnow the changing lines down to one particular line, to find the true essence of the reading. Allow me to give you an example from my own life: earlier this week, I was facing a deadline in waiting for an important decision/phone call; I had no other choice except to wait, and I didn't know what my options would be once the deadline had passed. Asking about the likelihood of this call coming, I received hexagram 48, lines 2, 4, and 5 - with 62 as the relating/future hexagram. At first, this reading made no sense whatsoever; I mean, these three lines are seriously at odds with each other... so, using the rule Huang provides for receiving three moving lines (look to the moving line in the middle of the three lines), I was able to see that events were still in preparation, and to prepare myself - with the 62 telling me to continue in my low profile. In other words: get ready, but stay out of sight for now. I continued to watch the situation evolving from a distance, and I was surprised when I noticed a shift in the situation - one that came out of the blue... Once the deadline passed, I consulted the I Ching again - but this time, I received a direct answer: 21, line 5, changing to 25 - act now: bite through the obstruction using nothing except a direct,innocent approach. This would bring great success. Now in the sensitive state things were in, I would have never thought about approaching this situation in that manner - but the next day, that's exactly what I did. And damned if it didn't work. (I'm still in shock.) There are other methods for divining the truth within your reading; for example, I also look for clues in step diagrams, and especially within the "change" pattern the moving lines generate (this reveals _how_ the change will come about), but those methods are better saved for yet another discussion. ;-) And Donna, I have the same problem sometimes, with the hexagram leading me to believe it's referring me to yet another future event (or better yet, sometimes chastising me because I pretty much know the answer to what I'm asking, so it's trying to make me think about another, more immediate problem); this is why keeping a journal of your readings is (to my mind) essential. Sometimes you only see what the I Ching was trying to tell you in hindsight; that may not help you with your immediate problem, but it _will_ help you gain insight into understanding many other cryptic readings you'll receive in the future. Finally, remember you're trying to reach into your own intuition; sometimes when you find yourself completely baffled, you need to get up from the I Ching and come back to it later. Let your unconscious mull it over. Sometimes what the I Ching was trying to tell you will pop into your head, all by itself. It's weird, but hey - it works for me. Hope this helps. kirk pennak ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. From owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Fri Sep 29 18:03:38 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA14392 for hexagram-8-outgoing; Fri, 29 Sep 2000 18:03:38 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: apocalypse.org: majordom set sender to owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org using -f Received: from as104.tel.hr (as104.tel.hr [205.219.255.36]) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA14388 for ; Fri, 29 Sep 2000 18:03:36 -0400 Received: from gleep (ar4-m113.tel.hr [195.29.239.113]) by as104.tel.hr (0.0.0/0.0.0) with SMTP id AAA156068 for ; Sat, 30 Sep 2000 00:03:33 +0200 (MEST) Message-ID: <001901c02a60$fd77fca0$71ef1dc3@gleep> From: "Robert Matusan - Boyler" To: Subject: Re: HEX8: changing lines Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2000 00:01:54 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-2" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Sender: owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Hi Donna, and all, <> First of all I'm glad that this list still works, that I am now one of you, and, of course, that you all woke up after summer sleep (and in some parts of the world, from winter sleep :o)) I am really new here, but I've read some of messages in archive, and I think there was some talking about multiple lines interpretation. There are some explanations about such interpretations in "An Anthology of I Ching", by Sherrill & Chu, pp. 27-28, taken from "The Hidden Meanings of Yi" (I don't know the author or Chinese title of the book. If anybody knows something more about it, please let me/us know), also repeated in "Moving with Change", by Rowena Pattee, p. 33. It could also mean that the situation is complex, or/and it will take time to come to situation represented by resulting hexagram, so that each line represents one step in evolving of the situation, or processes you should pass through in your way, giving you advices and/or warnings for each step. You can also change line by line and read as many resulting hexagrams as you get (sometimes is useful to read the text of corresponding (same) line(s) in resulting hexagrams), or you can interpret an answer just by means of attributes of each primary and/or nuclear trigrams, not using "Yijing" text at all. Hope it helps. Wansui! Boyler ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. From owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Fri Sep 29 18:44:56 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA16940 for hexagram-8-outgoing; Fri, 29 Sep 2000 18:44:56 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: apocalypse.org: majordom set sender to owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org using -f Received: from mail.independence.net (s1.independence.net [204.144.177.35]) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id SAA16936 for ; Fri, 29 Sep 2000 18:44:54 -0400 Received: (qmail 9079 invoked from network); 29 Sep 2000 22:44:21 -0000 Received: from ridgway420.independence.net (HELO independence.net) (204.144.177.108) by mail.independence.net with SMTP; 29 Sep 2000 22:44:21 -0000 Message-ID: <39D51B1C.A08D4FE4@independence.net> Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 16:43:40 -0600 From: bradford X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en,zh-TW,zh MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "hexagram-8@apocalypse.org" Subject: HEX8: introduction Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Good day (& bom dia) everyone I'm a newcomer to this list & wanted to introduce myself. I've been a lone scowler of Chinese thought for about 33 years. In the last six I've produced a self-published, two volume study/translation of the Yi, also a new translation of Laozi. Am about to start Yijing Vol. 3, which will be commentary. I may be posting little pieces of this from time to time, and may soon post the whole work temporarily on a website to solicit feedback. I'm also willing to share files - for this purpose - by private Email. The files combined are about 5mb. I live alone in a tiny mountain town in Colorado & felt a need to start bustin' out of this shell & see what others are doing & bumped into Hex8 among other great contacts and finds. Have been trying to get onto the list for a couple of months now & so have had time to "lurk" at high speed through all of the archives up to Jan 2000, being forbidden to see anything after that. I suppose there's nothing recent in terms of threads to pick up. My approach to Yixue *leans* towards the scholarly & conseravtive, except that I am not especially fond of the Modernist school, which I might on occasion refer to as Grunting Hamster Disease or Twitching Captive Syndrome. I appreciate them when they make sense, but they can take their dancing elephants away. I think that The Emperor's New Clothes ought to be required reading for all scholars in the field. I've read, and own, much of what's in print (bibliography's at 138 volumes. and climbing). That includes lots of fluff, but hey - the drool washes off, and sometimes it hides a gem. I tend to look at the Yi as a manual of Psychological Attitudes (towards Change), intentionally written as such, by a group of humans under Imperial patronage, beginning in the Early Zhou. I see it as much broader than divination in intent, but using the divinatory aspects as bait. Maybe that theory comes from the sufi in me. Finally, I see this Intent to instruct as primary, with Yi Li and Xiang Shu aspects of the lore being primarily later algorithms, sometimes useful, but often distracting. I'm looking forward to participating in this group & learning more, and maybe helping someone with a puzzle or two. da ji Bradford Hatcher bradford@independence.net ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. From owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Fri Sep 29 21:10:10 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id VAA23662 for hexagram-8-outgoing; Fri, 29 Sep 2000 21:10:10 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: apocalypse.org: majordom set sender to owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org using -f Received: from smtp-out1.bellatlantic.net (smtp-out1.bellatlantic.net [199.45.39.156]) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA23658 for ; Fri, 29 Sep 2000 21:10:09 -0400 Received: from lear-mobile (adsl-151-204-64-141.delval.adsl.bellatlantic.net [151.204.64.141]) by smtp-out1.bellatlantic.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id VAA22195 for ; Fri, 29 Sep 2000 21:09:51 -0400 (EDT) From: "Luis Andrade" To: Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 21:09:21 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: HEX8: Changing Lines / Sherril & Chu Message-ID: <39D50501.17617.31E39C@localhost> In-reply-to: <001901c02a60$fd77fca0$71ef1dc3@gleep> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.12c) Sender: owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Welcome Robert (or is it Boyler?) and all the new faces in Hex-8!! Hey Robert, I see you have the right books! I was about to reply to Donna, book in hand, when I saw your message... :-) > I am really new here, but I've read some of messages in archive, and I > think there was some talking about multiple lines interpretation. > There are some explanations about such interpretations in "An > Anthology of I Ching", by Sherrill & Chu, pp. 27-28, taken from "The > Hidden Meanings of Yi" (I don't know the author or Chinese title of Here is what Robert is referring to and I will quote from the book from Sherril and Chu; Quote ------- To return to the matter of the interpretation of the hexagram derived from tossing the coins, the following commentaries will be found useful and beneficial in arriving at the meaning of any oracle thus obtained. They are somewhat similar to those set forth in the Chinese book "The Hidden meaning of I": a) Read the Judgement and Image of the hexagram as a whole to get a good feel for the overall meaning of the hexagram. If the are no moving lines, use the Judgement and Image statements for your evaluation. b) One Moving Line: Make the judgement and final evaluation on the text of the one moving line. c) Two Moving Lines: Consider the text of both moving lines and give the upper line more weight in the evaluation than the lower. d) Three Moving Lines: Consider the text of all the moving lines and give the greatest weight to the text of the middle moving line, and to the text of both the present and future hexagram. e) Four Moving Lines: Read all the lines and give greatest weight to the meaning of the two unmoving lines as they are described in the future hexagram. Emphasize the meaning of the lower non-moving line as it is found in the future hexagram. f) Five Moving Lines: Read all the lines and give greatest weight to the meaning of the single non-moving line as it is described in the future hexagram along with the final outcome depicted in the future hexagram. g) Six Moving Lines: Read everything but make the evaluation on the basis of the final outcome (future) hexagram. Unquote ----------- Although interpreting Yi's answers is a very subjective matter, I find the above quote as a good start for a person who is a beginner or is starting to seriously study the Yi. All the best, Luis Andrade ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. From owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Fri Sep 29 23:16:55 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA31938 for hexagram-8-outgoing; Fri, 29 Sep 2000 23:16:55 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: apocalypse.org: majordom set sender to owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org using -f Received: from mail2.rdc1.sfba.home.com (mail2.rdc1.sfba.home.com [24.0.0.75]) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA31934 for ; Fri, 29 Sep 2000 23:16:53 -0400 Received: from Donna ([24.16.38.96]) by mail2.rdc1.sfba.home.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.00 201-229-121) with SMTP id <20000930031647.VSPJ6679.mail2.rdc1.sfba.home.com@Donna> for ; Fri, 29 Sep 2000 20:16:47 -0700 From: "Donna Fitzgerald" To: Subject: RE: HEX8: changing lines Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 20:16:45 -0700 Message-ID: <000901c02a8c$dcd04a80$6501a8c0@stasysinc> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: Sender: owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Ken, >From my some what myopic perspective if the base hexagram says everything is going well (hexagram 35 is gradual progress) reading line one which says progress is stopped seems to be a contradiction. When I first started with the I-Ching I tended to read the lines the way I would read the blocking rune in a six rune spread; as the process through which you needed to pass to get to the ultimate outcome or in the I-Ching the transformed hexagram. After 5 years of recording readings I haven't always found this to be true, hence my question. In my own case it occured to me that I had asked a specific question but that there was an underlying subtext behind my question, and I could see where the changing line might in fact be much more in keeping with the part of the question I didn't ask. As silly as it may sound I have occassionally gotten the feeling that the I-Ching was struggling to answer the real question in it's entirety rather than the piece I asked. Donna > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org > [mailto:owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org]On Behalf Of > yulong@mindspring.com > Sent: Friday, September 29, 2000 9:00 AM > To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org > Subject: Re: HEX8: changing lines > > > may not be at > odds with the transformed hexagram> > > What does it mean to be at odds with > in this passage? > > Ken > > > > ===== > To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org > from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. > > ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. From owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Fri Sep 29 23:29:03 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA01433 for hexagram-8-outgoing; Fri, 29 Sep 2000 23:29:03 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: apocalypse.org: majordom set sender to owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org using -f Received: from mail2.rdc1.sfba.home.com (mail2.rdc1.sfba.home.com [24.0.0.75]) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA01429 for ; Fri, 29 Sep 2000 23:29:02 -0400 Received: from Donna ([24.16.38.96]) by mail2.rdc1.sfba.home.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.00 201-229-121) with SMTP id <20000930032856.VSPN6679.mail2.rdc1.sfba.home.com@Donna> for ; Fri, 29 Sep 2000 20:28:56 -0700 From: "Donna Fitzgerald" To: Subject: RE: HEX8: Re: changing lines Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 20:28:58 -0700 Message-ID: <000a01c02a8e$9178a760$6501a8c0@stasysinc> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <39.ac0b281.27063b81@aol.com> Sender: owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Frank, Please elucidate... I am intrigued by what you've said but not sure I understand it completely. I am considering making a move that I hope will provide me with some time so that I can pursue my real goal which is to write and develop training courses which I believe could radically change the way people in my proffession approach their jobs. My initial reading of line one was that I wouldn't get the job, but when I threw the I-Ching again asking if the line had pertained to the client I would be interviewing with I got 34 going to 11. This seemed to me to imply I should look elsewhere for what it meant. The next logical choice would be the venture I intended to start as a result of cutting my hours from 60 down to 40. If the line is in fact saying that I'm planning on starting something new and different, then I would give it an A for accuracy. Donna > Particularly hexagram 35 which refers to a loyal subordinate > gathering forces for the benefit of his superiors in the text. This can also be > referred to the Rising Sun or Son and the beginning of a new day. The > unfortunate line judgments refer to situations where this new guy on the > block might actually be starting something truly new and different. In > Ancient Imperial terms that is very bad, but today that might be > exactly what you would welcome as great encouragement. > ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. From owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Sat Sep 30 05:20:30 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id FAA13769 for hexagram-8-outgoing; Sat, 30 Sep 2000 05:20:30 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: apocalypse.org: majordom set sender to owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org using -f Received: from nemesis.worldnet.net (nemesis.worldnet.net [195.3.3.18]) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id FAA13765 for ; Sat, 30 Sep 2000 05:20:28 -0400 Received: from m1.worldnet.net (m1.worldnet.net [195.3.3.5]) by nemesis.worldnet.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA04402 for ; Sat, 30 Sep 2000 11:21:39 +0200 (CEST) Received: from worldnet.fr (wn18-017.paris.worldnet.fr [195.3.18.17]) by m1.worldnet.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA00627 for ; Sat, 30 Sep 2000 11:20:04 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <39D5B06C.8B83BF30@worldnet.fr> Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2000 11:20:43 +0200 From: Jean-Pierre Dautun Organization: Gnostics, Inc. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [fr] (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: fr,fr-CA,fr-BE,fr-CH,en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Subject: Re: HEX8: The bait, or the whole fish? References: <39D51B1C.A08D4FE4@independence.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Hi everybody, Welcome to you all newcomers, and welcome back to all others, after all this — indeed very taoist — quietness. I just drop a line (!) to react to one detail in bradford's introduction, a point I heard many times and that I never hear without an urge to reply. Here it is : " I see (the yi) as much broader than divination in intent, but using the divinatory aspects as bait. " This famous question of the divination as a "bait" for something greater, broader or more secret, — and nobler, has always made me feel itchy. Just *what * can be higher? This seems to imply that divination is just a pastime for speculative 'beginners', who need to get further their blindness, towards higher purposes — and hopefully will find out some day. To me divination is necessarily , and not only for historical, but for epistemological reasons, the very *core* of the yi, and of all the peaks of wisdom and knowledge it may aim at and reach. The bait is the whole fish."How could it be elsewise?". Is the possibility to find one's path with the help of a compass, a 'bait' towards understanding of the laws of Earth magnetic field? Of course no : first, the tool exists to fulfill a practical need, and this need is the very cause of the creation of the tool; second, the tool and the knowledge it encapsulates (unbenownst or not) make one (even if the tool has been empirically born), and third, the knwoledge implicit in the tool which can emerge further is still one with the tool. Which is, by the way, very much in the state of mind of China pragmatism. Same for Yi, divination, and 'the broads intents' supposedly hidden below. Compass is a tool for objective space, the yi is a compass for subjective time. Few intents are broader in human speculations, than the ones about time, changes, and their relations to human action and decision. That's formely and ultimately just what divination is really about, i.e, an eterrnal, constant and serious urge, as well as an everyday need, for anyone, from emperors and soldiers down to peasants, — and today Hex-8ers…And that's the ultimate reason why we care about the yi. So why imagine something further? (as lao tse says, "the further you go, the lesser yo know"). The ultimate knowledge whose divination is the 'bait' is the laws of relation between time, human time consciousness and choice — nothing else and nothing less than the laws of the mystery of divination. To wonder if divination it is a path towards any other upper level of wisdom, or, (as often, here and there), some sort of archaic draft for modern cosmic theories supposed brighter because they seem electronically sophisticated, is just off topic, — lightyears from home. Divination is not only a childish guessin game, — or in that case, Chinese emperors have been children, and chinese philosophers their nurses— nor a fool's paradise. It is a way in to speculation about time, human consciousness and conscience, but i just can't see where speculation about time could get higher and further than were divination puts it to begin with, and leads it eventually. So, to me, divination is like the center of a cercle that would be the whole circle itself. Divinatorily yours. Jp Dautun, Silent as he can. ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. From owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Sat Sep 30 07:28:24 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id HAA16524 for hexagram-8-outgoing; Sat, 30 Sep 2000 07:28:24 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: apocalypse.org: majordom set sender to owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org using -f Received: from as104.tel.hr (as104.tel.hr [205.219.255.36]) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA16520 for ; Sat, 30 Sep 2000 07:28:23 -0400 Received: from gleep (ar3-m140.tel.hr [195.29.238.140]) by as104.tel.hr (0.0.0/0.0.0) with SMTP id NAA66984 for ; Sat, 30 Sep 2000 13:28:20 +0200 (MEST) Message-ID: <004101c02ad1$65c64d00$8cee1dc3@gleep> From: "Robert Matusan - Boyler" To: References: <39D51B1C.A08D4FE4@independence.net> <39D5B06C.8B83BF30@worldnet.fr> Subject: Re: HEX8: The bait, or the whole fish? Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2000 13:26:12 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Sender: owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Hi Jp Dautun, Thank you for your warm welcoming. "Yijing" is without any doubt meant for divination, and earliest archeological data tend to confirm that. It is generally believed "Yijing" got some philosophical meaning in hands of Confucius and/or his school of thought. Since that times "Yijing" is accompanied with one of its first commentaries ('Ten Wings'), where is explained its divinatory, as well as its philosophical and/or spiritual nature. Later "Yijing" was used in daoist alchemy and fengshui too. Since it ("Yijing") contains all basic elements (heaven, earth, thunders, winds, moving waters, fires, mountains and still waters) in all their possible combinations, everything in the outer world (as well as in inner world) can be explained and elucidated by means of "Yijing". So it could be used as basis pattern for explaining, past and future, physical and psychological, mundane and spiritual, scientific and religious, etc. and in it can be seen, as in mirror, all we want to see in it. But the trick is to go behind the mirror. To reach the dao. It's good trying to explain or correlate genetic code with "Yijing", but this, in most cases, does not enrich quality of our lives, it's just a comparative technique which tell us "a=b", but to go behind the mirror, we should ask ourselves what is "a", or what is "b", not just quote the equation. Although it's good and interesting it's not of much use to our spiritual progress. Divination can be used for trivial things, or can help to bring us closer to the dao. But as an old alchemical saying is telling us: "To create gold, one must already have gold." Or as it is said in 'Ten Wings': "But if you are not right man, the meaning will not manifest itself to you." And for an conclusion here is an excerpt from Introduction from "The Complete Works of Chuang Tzu (Zhuang Zi)", translated by Burton Watson, p. 11 :"...Or, to turn from officialdom to the world of private citizens, we may note the case of a scholar named Yen Chün-ping (Yan Junping) of the region of Szechwan (Sichuan) who made his living as a diviner in the market place of Ch'eng-tu (Chengdu). He admitted that this was a rather lowly occupation, but explained that he pursued it 'because I can thereby benefit common people. When men come to me with questions about something that is evil or improper, I use the oracle as an excuse to advise them on what is right. I advise sons to be filial, younger brothers to be obedient, subjects to be loyal, utilizing whatever the circumstances may be to lead the people to what is right - and over half of them follow my advice!' So Yen Chün-ping spend his days instructing people, in this ingenious fashion, in the dictates of conventional morality. But when he made enough money for one day, "he shut up his stall, lowered the blinds, and gave instruction in Lao tzu ("Laozi")' (Han shu 72). He was the author of a work which was based on doctrines of Lao Tzu (Lao Zi) and Chuang Tzu (Zhuang Zi), and was teacher of the most eminent Confucian philosopher of the time, Yang Hsiung (Yang Xiong) (53 B.C. - A.D. 18)..." Hope it helps. Wansui! Boyler ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jean-Pierre Dautun" To: Sent: Saturday, September 30, 2000 11:20 AM Subject: Re: HEX8: The bait, or the whole fish? Hi everybody, Welcome to you all newcomers, and welcome back to all others, after all this - indeed very taoist - quietness. I just drop a line (!) to react to one detail in bradford's introduction, a point I heard many times and that I never hear without an urge to reply. Here it is : " I see (the yi) as much broader than divination in intent, but using the divinatory aspects as bait. " This famous question of the divination as a "bait" for something greater, broader or more secret, - and nobler, has always made me feel itchy. Just *what * can be higher? This seems to imply that divination is just a pastime for speculative 'beginners', who need to get further their blindness, towards higher purposes - and hopefully will find out some day. To me divination is necessarily , and not only for historical, but for epistemological reasons, the very *core* of the yi, and of all the peaks of wisdom and knowledge it may aim at and reach. The bait is the whole fish."How could it be elsewise?". Is the possibility to find one's path with the help of a compass, a 'bait' towards understanding of the laws of Earth magnetic field? Of course no : first, the tool exists to fulfill a practical need, and this need is the very cause of the creation of the tool; second, the tool and the knowledge it encapsulates (unbenownst or not) make one (even if the tool has been empirically born), and third, the knwoledge implicit in the tool which can emerge further is still one with the tool. Which is, by the way, very much in the state of mind of China pragmatism. Same for Yi, divination, and 'the broads intents' supposedly hidden below. Compass is a tool for objective space, the yi is a compass for subjective time. Few intents are broader in human speculations, than the ones about time, changes, and their relations to human action and decision. That's formely and ultimately just what divination is really about, i.e, an eterrnal, constant and serious urge, as well as an everyday need, for anyone, from emperors and soldiers down to peasants, - and today Hex-8ers.And that's the ultimate reason why we care about the yi. So why imagine something further? (as lao tse says, "the further you go, the lesser yo know"). The ultimate knowledge whose divination is the 'bait' is the laws of relation between time, human time consciousness and choice - nothing else and nothing less than the laws of the mystery of divination. To wonder if divination it is a path towards any other upper level of wisdom, or, (as often, here and there), some sort of archaic draft for modern cosmic theories supposed brighter because they seem electronically sophisticated, is just off topic, - lightyears from home. Divination is not only a childish guessin game, - or in that case, Chinese emperors have been children, and chinese philosophers their nurses- nor a fool's paradise. It is a way in to speculation about time, human consciousness and conscience, but i just can't see where speculation about time could get higher and further than were divination puts it to begin with, and leads it eventually. So, to me, divination is like the center of a cercle that would be the whole circle itself. Divinatorily yours. Jp Dautun, Silent as he can. ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. From owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Sat Sep 30 08:05:32 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA17720 for hexagram-8-outgoing; Sat, 30 Sep 2000 08:05:32 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: apocalypse.org: majordom set sender to owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org using -f Received: from smtp04.wxs.nl (smtp04.wxs.nl [195.121.6.59]) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA17715 for ; Sat, 30 Sep 2000 08:05:31 -0400 Received: from heybo002wxs ([195.121.218.4]) by smtp04.wxs.nl (Netscape Messaging Server 4.05 Jun 27 2000 10:40:22) with SMTP id G1P89506.KJV for ; Sat, 30 Sep 2000 14:05:29 +0200 From: "LiSe" To: Subject: RE: HEX8: changing lines Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2000 14:04:14 +0200 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Sender: owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org When two things do not match or agree. English is not my native language either, but I found this in the dictionary. LiSe I Ching, Book of the Moon www.aheyboer.com webmaster@aheyboer.com -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- Van: owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org [mailto:owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org]Namens yulong@mindspring.com Verzonden: vrijdag 29 september 2000 19:00 Aan: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Onderwerp: Re: HEX8: changing lines What does it mean to be at odds with in this passage? Ken ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. From owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Sat Sep 30 08:05:41 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA17754 for hexagram-8-outgoing; Sat, 30 Sep 2000 08:05:41 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: apocalypse.org: majordom set sender to owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org using -f Received: from smtp04.wxs.nl (smtp04.wxs.nl [195.121.6.59]) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA17750 for ; Sat, 30 Sep 2000 08:05:40 -0400 Received: from heybo002wxs ([195.121.218.4]) by smtp04.wxs.nl (Netscape Messaging Server 4.05 Jun 27 2000 10:40:22) with SMTP id G1P89606.KJW for ; Sat, 30 Sep 2000 14:05:30 +0200 From: "LiSe" To: Subject: RE: HEX8: changing lines Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2000 14:04:15 +0200 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <000401c02a22$68ed2300$6501a8c0@stasysinc> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Sender: owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Hello everybody, (Another new one! Nice to meet you all. I have been here before, but when my computer went down and moreover my server changed his name, Apocalypse could not find my e-mail address anymore. In March I re-subscribed, and then at last a week ago, I got my subscription. Was sure a long hibernation). I have quite a different idea about lines, but it works extremely well for me. If you imagine a child asking his mother if he can go play outside, the mother says "Yes, if you look very carefully before you cross the street, because a car might run you over" - bad fortune. Or she says "If you look carefully before you cross over, then you will be safe" - good fortune. It is exactly the same advice, only put in different words. If she mentioned both possibilities, she would only confuse the child. So she picks the one that is easiest to explain. I think every line has this same quality: if you do it like this, then good (or bad) fortune. An example: 16.3, a 'bad' line in a 'good' hexagram. "Enthusiasm that looks upward creates remorse. Hesitation brings remorse". Enthusiasm (the name of the hexagram) is an elephant, with two hands 'handing over' or maybe a shuttle (weaving). Elephant means 'image'. So Yu is literally 'handing over or weaving images'. Enthusiasm is contagious, but also inspiration. 'In advance or foreseeing' is getting an image of the future. Yu has other meanings too: 'to cheat' is handing over a wrong image, 'to travel or sightseeing' is also getting images. Line 3 says: if you follow images 'looking upward', without any scepticism or judgment, you will do things you regret. It changes to 62.3 which also says: be careful, look around you. So 16.3 is not bad, it is advice. If you listen to the advice, the outcome will be good, no remorse at all. LiSe I Ching, Book of the Moon www.aheyboer.com webmaster@aheyboer.com -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- Van: owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org [mailto:owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org]Namens Donna Fitzgerald Verzonden: vrijdag 29 september 2000 16:35 Aan: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Onderwerp: HEX8: changing lines I've always been curious about how to interpret the moving lines. Multiple lines conflict lines sometimes seem at odds with the base hexagram and may or may not be at odds with the transformed hexagram On the other time sometimes the line is the only part of the reading that makes sense. I got a reading yesterday where the line seemed to say something I was asking about wasn't going to happen. 35, with line one changing. After asking a few more question I realized that the changing line might have been referring to more future plans and not my immediate question. I'd love to hear others experience. Donna ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. From owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Sat Sep 30 08:15:22 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA18689 for hexagram-8-outgoing; Sat, 30 Sep 2000 08:15:22 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: apocalypse.org: majordom set sender to owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org using -f Received: from smtp04.wxs.nl (smtp04.wxs.nl [195.121.6.59]) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA18684 for ; Sat, 30 Sep 2000 08:15:21 -0400 Received: from heybo002wxs ([195.121.218.68]) by smtp04.wxs.nl (Netscape Messaging Server 4.05 Jun 27 2000 10:40:22) with SMTP id G1P8OM03.OHZ for ; Sat, 30 Sep 2000 14:14:46 +0200 From: "LiSe" To: Subject: RE: HEX8: The bait, or the whole fish? Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2000 14:13:32 +0200 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <39D5B06C.8B83BF30@worldnet.fr> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Sender: owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org I hope you will break your silence more often! LiSe I Ching, Book of the Moon www.aheyboer.com webmaster@aheyboer.com -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- Van: owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org [mailto:owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org]Namens Jean-Pierre Dautun Verzonden: zaterdag 30 september 2000 11:21 Aan: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Onderwerp: Re: HEX8: The bait, or the whole fish? Hi everybody, Welcome to you all newcomers, and welcome back to all others, after all this - indeed very taoist - quietness. ...Just *what * can be higher?. ...The bait is the whole fish."How could it be elsewise?". Is the possibility to find one's path with the help of a compass, a 'bait' towards understanding of the laws of Earth magnetic field? Of course no Divinatorily yours. Jp Dautun, Silent as he can. ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. From owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Sat Sep 30 08:16:15 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA18835 for hexagram-8-outgoing; Sat, 30 Sep 2000 08:16:15 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: apocalypse.org: majordom set sender to owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org using -f Received: from m2.boston.juno.com (m2.boston.juno.com [63.211.172.65]) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA18831 for ; Sat, 30 Sep 2000 08:16:14 -0400 Received: from cookie.juno.com by cookie.juno.com for <"6WtjosC31bup05e17m8gmambxMHxHXacMAvMRMaIgfNYktWG0l5hPQ=="> Received: (from hungryghost1@juno.com) by m2.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id FJ8CNPFL; Sat, 30 Sep 2000 08:16:03 EDT To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 09:47:36 -0400 Subject: Re: HEX8: ...and the Tao Message-ID: <20000930.082120.-86509.0.hungryghost1@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 5.0.11 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0,5,7-11 From: jeffrey e zweig Sender: owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Dear Rhett & Robert, I'm a new member who believes that the Tao Te Ching cannot be translated. The same problem seems to manifest in the I Ching which uses 30 ideograms (approximately) to deliver its message. When translated into english, there are paragraph after paragraph to deliver the same? information. I use the I in Chinese fashion which means I throw my coins & only consider those lines which came up 3 heads or 3 tails. Bob, sorry to shatter your silence. Cheers, Jeff Enlightenment means taking full responsibility for your life.--William Blake ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. From owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Sat Sep 30 09:18:23 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA22026 for hexagram-8-outgoing; Sat, 30 Sep 2000 09:18:23 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: apocalypse.org: majordom set sender to owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org using -f Received: from dida.rei.br (root@dida.rei.br [200.241.160.2]) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA22022 for ; Sat, 30 Sep 2000 09:18:21 -0400 Received: from marcusbr (dial180.d.mco.rei.br [200.241.161.180]) by dida.rei.br (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id KAA28142 for ; Sat, 30 Sep 2000 10:18:45 -0300 Message-ID: <004a01c02ae0$9a8f5720$b4a1f1c8@marcusbr> From: "Marcus Braga" To: References: <000401c02a22$68ed2300$6501a8c0@stasysinc> Subject: Re: HEX8: changing lines Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2000 10:08:47 -0300 Organization: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Hi, everybody! After 15 years listening to my inner Master, I learned that the changing lines, also may be interpreted as other ways to get a different future. For example: If I got the hexagram 1 (Criative) with three changing lines (1, 3 and 5), I can understand that I have seven ways to follow: 1) If I consider and obey only the advise of the first line, it leads me to the hexagram 44; 2) Otherwise, If I only consider (and obey) the advice of the second changing line (the third), the situation will leads me to the hexagram 10; 3) If I prefer to listen (and obey) the advise for the third changing line (line 5), now it will leads me to the hexagram 14; 4) But, if I prefer to act considering the advices of the lines 1 and 3, then the situation wiil changes to the hexagram 6! 5) If I decide to hear the advices of the lines 1 and 5, now the situation will leads me to the hexagram 50; 6) If I consider the lines 3 and 5, I will get the hexagram 38; 7) Finally, if I consider all the changing lines, it leads me to the hexagram 64. Then, I asked to myself what future do I prefer? I believe that life has so many ways to follow. So, interpreting that all the lines will always change and the situation will result in only a future is a big restriction. If you think this way, you are losing all the possibilities of choice in your destiny. The I Ching is a wise book. I would like to know the opnion of the others... (Forgive me for my bad english.) Marcus Braga Ultreya y Suseya! ("Forward and Upward!" in the language of Pilgrims...) ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. From owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Sat Sep 30 09:30:51 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA22712 for hexagram-8-outgoing; Sat, 30 Sep 2000 09:30:51 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: apocalypse.org: majordom set sender to owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org using -f Received: from m2.boston.juno.com (m2.boston.juno.com [63.211.172.65]) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA22707 for ; Sat, 30 Sep 2000 09:30:50 -0400 Received: from cookie.juno.com by cookie.juno.com for <"6WtjosC31bup05e17m8gmambxMHxHXac4ofkxCQitFr4UCM3RSPMPw=="> Received: (from hungryghost1@juno.com) by m2.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id FJ8GWPHW; Sat, 30 Sep 2000 09:30:19 EDT To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2000 09:35:40 -0400 Subject: HEX8: Projections Message-ID: <20000930.093541.-86509.5.hungryghost1@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 5.0.11 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 1,4-7,9 From: jeffrey e zweig Sender: owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org The I is very projective. Everyone has their own favorite translation of it; that's part of the projection. I first heard of the I from a lecture of Timothy Leary's. He said the guests at Milbrook were using the I to decide how much milk to group needed. This is also projection. Jeff Nothing ever becomes real till it is experienced -- even a proverb is no proverb till your life has illustrated it. -- John Keats ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. From owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Sat Sep 30 10:29:04 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA25733 for hexagram-8-outgoing; Sat, 30 Sep 2000 10:29:04 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: apocalypse.org: majordom set sender to owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org using -f Received: from imo-r02.mail.aol.com (imo-r02.mx.aol.com [152.163.225.2]) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA25729 for ; Sat, 30 Sep 2000 10:29:03 -0400 From: SaadEYKI@aol.com Received: from SaadEYKI@aol.com by imo-r02.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v28.24.) id h.a4.a13dea5 (4357) for ; Sat, 30 Sep 2000 10:28:26 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2000 10:28:26 EDT Subject: HEX8: Projections and facts To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" X-Mailer: AOL 4.0.i for Mac sub 148 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by apocalypse.org id KAA25730 Sender: owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Dans un courrier daté du 30/09/00 15:31:11, hungryghost1@juno.com a écrit : << The I is very projective. Everyone has their own favorite translation of it; that's part of the projection. I first heard of the I from a lecture of Timothy Leary's. He said the guests at Milbrook were using the I to decide how much milk to group needed. This is also projection. Jeff Nothing ever becomes real till it is experienced -- even a proverb is no proverb till your life has illustrated it. -- John Keats>> Maybe, can we look for a more scientific approach of Yi ? A kind of method where lines explain the meaning of the situation and give us the conviction by the facts… The answer of the hexagram must meet facts… and facts the meaning of your own way of hexagramms How many can and are using Yi like this ? Thank you, for J. Keats quotation. Ezéchiel web pages : www.yiking.org (full presented only in french for the moment) ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. From owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Sat Sep 30 12:34:40 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA30914 for hexagram-8-outgoing; Sat, 30 Sep 2000 12:34:40 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: apocalypse.org: majordom set sender to owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org using -f Received: from mail.independence.net (s1.independence.net [204.144.177.35]) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id MAA30910 for ; Sat, 30 Sep 2000 12:34:38 -0400 Received: (qmail 26450 invoked from network); 30 Sep 2000 16:34:04 -0000 Received: from ridgway316.independence.net (HELO independence.net) (204.144.177.80) by mail.independence.net with SMTP; 30 Sep 2000 16:34:04 -0000 Message-ID: <39D615D0.238D929B@independence.net> Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2000 10:33:22 -0600 From: bradford X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en,zh-TW,zh MIME-Version: 1.0 To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Subject: HEX8: changing lines Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org hi all- There's a newer method for interpreting multiple changing lines that "seems" to have arisen spontaneously in the early to mid seventies. Mondo Secter refers to the method as "Transitional Hexagrams." Others (including myself) have mentioned just starting to do it this way around the same time. Nobody's ever taken credit for inventing or discovering it - a good thing cuz no doubt someone in China saw it first: Start with the Ben (Original) Gua. Then read and change only the lowest moving line. Go to that Zhi (Resultant) Gua and treat that as the next stage Ben Gua. Read the next changing line there, and then change it. And so on, to the final Zhi Gua. There is a reason that this longer process provides clearer answers. It involves opening up a new topic though - that *one* of the sources of imagery for the Yao Ci texts was an interpolation in meaning between Ben and Zhi Gua. Maybe not many are ready to grant this, though. Anyway, I've found the method to be at least worth recommending for testing. Bradford ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. From owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Sat Sep 30 13:16:21 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA32465 for hexagram-8-outgoing; Sat, 30 Sep 2000 13:16:21 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: apocalypse.org: majordom set sender to owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org using -f Received: from mail026.mail.onemain.com (SMTP-OUT003.ONEMAIN.COM [63.208.208.73]) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id NAA32461 for ; Sat, 30 Sep 2000 13:16:16 -0400 Received: (qmail 21667 invoked from network); 30 Sep 2000 17:15:44 -0000 Received: from 216-119-34-140.o1.jps.net (HELO homeseries) ([216.119.34.140]) (envelope-sender ) by mail026.mail.onemain.com (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 30 Sep 2000 17:15:44 -0000 Message-ID: <001701c02b01$dbaa32e0$8c2277d8@homeseries> From: "Bobby & Sarah" To: References: <006d01c02a01$79933bc0$b9e81dc3@gleep> Subject: Re: HEX8: new one Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2000 10:14:12 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-2" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Sender: owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Yes I read this and I am also interested in the same things as you but I think this e-mail should have gone somewhere else. ----- Original Message ----- From: Robert Matusan - Boyler To: Sent: Friday, September 29, 2000 3:38 AM Subject: HEX8: new one > Hi there, > > Am I in? Is there anybody out there? > Well, however...let me introduce myself. My name is Robert Matusan - Boyler. > I am from Rijeka, Croatia, Europe, and I am interested in things Chinese > (Chinese philosophy, religion, and metaphysics), and "Yijing" is, among > these things, my first love. I've read some of Hexagram-8 archives. > Is there something new in the world of "Yijing". I have heard the new issue > of "Oracle" is available. > If anybody is reading this, please give me some sign of life. > > Wansui! > Boyler > > > > > ===== > To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org > from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. > ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. From owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Sat Sep 30 13:43:07 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA02437 for hexagram-8-outgoing; Sat, 30 Sep 2000 13:43:07 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: apocalypse.org: majordom set sender to owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org using -f Received: from maynard.mail.mindspring.net (maynard.mail.mindspring.net [207.69.200.243]) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA02422 for ; Sat, 30 Sep 2000 13:43:06 -0400 From: yulong@mindspring.com Received: from smui5.eng00.mindspring.net (smui5.eng00.mindspring.net [207.69.200.74]) by maynard.mail.mindspring.net (8.9.3/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA01718 for ; Sat, 30 Sep 2000 13:43:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: by smui5.eng00.mindspring.net id NAA0000032085; Sat, 30 Sep 2000 13:43:05 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2000 13:43:05 -0400 To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Subject: Re: RE: HEX8: changing lines Message-ID: X-Originating-IP: 4.3.90.73 Sender: owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org hexagram-8@apocalypse.org wrote: > When two things do not match or agree. English is not my native language either, but I found this in the dictionary. Ah. So if we're pointing out that lines are at odds, i.e. the do not match or agree, then we reveal a presumption that lines somehow should match or agree. After all, if we didn't presume that they should match or agree, then it would hardly be noteworthy that they do not. Where does this presumption come from? Ken ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. From owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Sat Sep 30 13:53:52 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA03554 for hexagram-8-outgoing; Sat, 30 Sep 2000 13:53:52 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: apocalypse.org: majordom set sender to owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org using -f Received: from smtp10.atl.mindspring.net (smtp10.atl.mindspring.net [207.69.200.246]) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA03550 for ; Sat, 30 Sep 2000 13:53:51 -0400 From: yulong@mindspring.com Received: from smui5.eng00.mindspring.net (smui5.eng00.mindspring.net [207.69.200.74]) by smtp10.atl.mindspring.net (8.9.3/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA08845 for ; Sat, 30 Sep 2000 13:53:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: by smui5.eng00.mindspring.net id NAA0000031556; Sat, 30 Sep 2000 13:53:51 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2000 13:53:51 -0400 To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Subject: Re: RE: HEX8: changing lines Message-ID: X-Originating-IP: 4.3.90.73 Sender: owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Donna, >From my some what myopic perspective if the base hexagram says everything is going well (hexagram 35 is gradual progress) reading line one which says progress is stopped seems to be a contradiction. I think what I'm asking is, without at all intending to be rude, "So what?" So what that it seems to be a contradiction? Isn't life full of contradictions? It seems to me that the truly curious thing would be to find in a book that has survived as long as the Yi Jing, a situation in which such contradictions were absent. Just a thought, really, that you managed to pique with your earlier post. Ken ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. From owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Sat Sep 30 14:54:49 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA07727 for hexagram-8-outgoing; Sat, 30 Sep 2000 14:54:49 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: apocalypse.org: majordom set sender to owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org using -f Received: from vi-b1.ipcore.viaginterkom.de (ns0.ipcore.viaginterkom.de [195.182.96.29] (may be forged)) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA07723 for ; Sat, 30 Sep 2000 14:54:47 -0400 Received: from planet-interkom.de (f-58.munchen.ipdial.viaginterkom.de [62.180.173.58]) by vi-b1.ipcore.viaginterkom.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA23478 for ; Sat, 30 Sep 2000 20:46:30 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <39D64573.9B1CC259@planet-interkom.de> Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2000 20:56:36 +0100 From: Michael Lutzeier X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en,zh-CN,de,nl MIME-Version: 1.0 To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Subject: HEX8: multiple changing lines References: <000401c02a22$68ed2300$6501a8c0@stasysinc> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Hi everybody I'm new on the list and I'm very happy finding it busy again. Happy with the high standard of contributions, too. If I'm in the position to say so. As regarding multiple changing lines, which maybe at odds to each other or the actual Hx's: We all know the lines we are talking of have certain positions (so called places). The six places have several possibilities of distinction: Distinction of Time as they coming into the Hx from "the bottom" and leaving at the "Top". So we might conclude, different lines refer to a chronological outcome/happening. Furthermore, Distinction of realms in the trigram as well as in the Hx. For example: Bottom line(s): - Earth, ; Middle Line(s): - Human, Upper line(s): - Heaven, Some of the associations that might come with that are: Bottom line(s): material world, basics, instincts; Middle Line(s): human world, moral, law and similar things; Upper line(s): Idea(l)s. It would be a good task to find out a list of apropriate asociations for this. This also helps with finding out which line is conferring to which part of the complex situation the YiJing is answering. The confucian way of thinking in hierarchic way might also be helpful for divining: there is nothing wrong of seeing any system (even your own "Leib", which is not translateable, there is no english word for body&soul as an actual unity, in chinese philosophy the path of having unity was never really left, see also the concept of "qi") as a unit of "saint, outer ruler, minister, soldier, inner ruler,worker". There are still other systems like the psychological system including "ego", "impuls" or nature-based systems like "fruit" "branch" "root" and more. Experimenting with these or similiar approaches according to the actual question leads to surprising answer or new horizons. And yet the fact that the lines correspond to each other, will say the 1st to 4th, the 2nd to 5th, the 3rd to the 6th, is important. I think that has to be a topic. Not as an overall truth though, because each Hx is built differentely. That's also why I can't find the "recipe" of sherrill/chu always right, as a general idea yes, but not always. There is a difference between let's say, Hx 41 and Hx 42, Hx 11 and Hx 12. So it might just be the other, the more lower line or the third line of three moving lines, which is the most important one. More often if one of the moving lines is the ruler of the Hx, this gives some extra weight. But in general one can give even stress to all lines, they are only referring to different realm, time, or space. The following Hx, often called the "result", is according to my experience not so much pointing to the future, but combining the moving lines of the first Hx. It's like "the same island seen by a different view" one of my teachers said. As it was mentioned by a member of the list, the answer of the oracle has to be thoroughly interpreted. Sometimes it is neccessary finding the "real" question bothering one just as thoroughly before one is asking. As for Hx 35, line 1 is not so much in odds with the overall meaning of the Hx. Imagine someone putting some branch of wood into a fire. The fire is warm and securing, but he can't get too near to it, and if he continues putting branches in it, the fire may be out of control soon. Greetings to everyone and thank you Donna for bringing up the topic. Greetings to jp dautun, I agree with you. As you said chinese pragmatism, i would say chinese sense of unity. What's the meaning of "wan sui", boyler? So stay awake all you seekers of truth and happiness :-) and I'm looking forward to participating in this group & learning more. Michael Lutzeier mlutzeier@planet-interkom.de ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. From owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Sat Sep 30 15:26:49 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA09042 for hexagram-8-outgoing; Sat, 30 Sep 2000 15:26:49 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: apocalypse.org: majordom set sender to owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org using -f Received: from as104.tel.hr (as104.tel.hr [205.219.255.36]) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA09032 for ; Sat, 30 Sep 2000 15:26:47 -0400 Received: from gleep (ad7-m129.tel.hr [195.29.230.129]) by as104.tel.hr (0.0.0/0.0.0) with SMTP id VAA154082 for ; Sat, 30 Sep 2000 21:26:45 +0200 (MEST) Message-ID: <000f01c02b14$1b7708a0$81e61dc3@gleep> From: "Robert Matusan - Boyler" To: References: <000401c02a22$68ed2300$6501a8c0@stasysinc> <39D64573.9B1CC259@planet-interkom.de> Subject: HEX8: Re: multiple changing lines Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2000 21:23:33 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Sender: owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Hi Michael, > What's the meaning of "wan sui", boyler? It means: "(May you live for) ten thousand years!" Wansui! Boyler ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. From owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Sat Sep 30 16:26:56 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA12351 for hexagram-8-outgoing; Sat, 30 Sep 2000 16:26:56 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: apocalypse.org: majordom set sender to owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org using -f Received: from scooby.lineone.net (doggy.lineone.net [194.75.152.224]) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA12346 for ; Sat, 30 Sep 2000 16:26:55 -0400 Received: from q8w9y0 (host212-140-16-42.btinternet.com [212.140.16.42]) by scooby.lineone.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id VAA18444 for ; Sat, 30 Sep 2000 21:26:21 +0100 (BST) Message-ID: <001301bffa65$31510f20$45affea9@q8w9y0> From: "Hilary Barrett" To: Subject: HEX8: changing lines (and another newcomer) Date: Sun, 30 Jul 2000 21:30:56 +0100 Organization: Clarity MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Hello everyone, I'm new to the list, and completely overwhelmed by the richness and depth of comment that Donna has provoked. Can't decide which to reply to! Anyway, here are a few thoughts for what they're worth. I think the question of apparent internal contradictions in answers is an important one, not just a matter of life being full of contradictions. People ask the I Ching 'what if I did this?' and need to be able to understand the answer! (Sorry to state the obvious.) I've found that the applications of the lines and the relating/ 2nd hexagram depend very much on the question. For example, two contradictory lines often represent a choice - 'if you tackle it in the way described by this line, this is what you are letting yourself in for.' I would agree that you can't apply any one formula to all answers - the relations between lines and hexagrams vary endlessly. I'm glad that someone else has also found that the second hexagram can represent the present! I think this often happens with a 'what about doing this?' type question. The primary hexagram and its moving lines answer the question directly, so tend to talk about the future; the second hexagram describes where you stand in relation to the whole issue, so describes the present. Thank you to everyone for giving me so much food for thought! Best wishes, Hilary. ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. From owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Sat Sep 30 17:04:15 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA14368 for hexagram-8-outgoing; Sat, 30 Sep 2000 17:04:15 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: apocalypse.org: majordom set sender to owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org using -f Received: from imo-r11.mail.aol.com (imo-r11.mx.aol.com [152.163.225.65]) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA14363 for ; Sat, 30 Sep 2000 17:04:14 -0400 From: FKegan@aol.com Received: from FKegan@aol.com by imo-r11.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v28.24.) id h.2d.194d2a1 (4217) for ; Sat, 30 Sep 2000 17:03:34 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <2d.194d2a1.2707af26@aol.com> Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2000 17:03:34 EDT Subject: HEX8: Re: specific oracle of hex 35 To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Windows sub 118 Sender: owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Hi Donna, Personally, I generally either limit an oracle to ONE specific question, or ask the Oracle to answer in general about "things" and further, it tends to work out better to ask the oracle about how things feel or what is their meaning than simply what will happen next as the complications which can arise make what one perceives as the oracle and the history very hard to relate to one another. All that proviso and disclaimer aside, you asked the Oracle about you intended move and it replied with Hexagram 35, first line moving, if I understand you correctly. This is the Hexagram of the Rising Sun (Son) changing at the root stage toward the Hexagram of (21) Biting Through or Digging In. Let me forego all the details of my own work, and focus just on Wilhelm. There is nothing bad in the commentary on line one. It is stated as a forward movement, only with a bit of personal doubt and the suggestion is to remain calm and move ahead sensibly. Hexagram 21 is also not "bad" it refers to the need to meet obstacles and work them through, but there is every indication that they can and will be worked through. The oracle 34 becoming 11 with the fourth line moving is also very favorable, speaking about success through the development of a new "vehicle" which will be useful for many things. In general, I would suggest a bit more calm when you approach the Oracle. It also helps to focus and phrase your question so that you are exactly clear about what you are asking. If you react to an oracle by imagining perhaps it refers to something else, you complicate your interpretation task tremendously. The Oracle will answer you quite precisely, and even very clearly (at times too clearly and simply) if that is what you need. Assuming it will be unclear, and therefore you need to think of another alternative instead of taking that time to calm and focus only encourages casting more oracles and avoiding clear answers. You are describing a life situation for you where many things are in the works for you. The Oracle answered, the root stage of the Rising Sun hexagram, you are just at the very beginning and focusing so much on these new options that you are letting your worry interfere with the necessary development of your new process. You weren't content with that answer, so the second oracle was made simpler. You are plowing ahead, with most of your focus upon the feeling in your heart/soul (fourth line) so that you are slipping away from your activities toward imaginative dreams (hex 11) however, things are still going well, and if you can calm down and attend to the tasks you have chosen you still have the ability to make things turn out the way you wish. I hope these more specific comments upon your oracles are more understandable to you. Peace and Power, Frank ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. From owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Sat Sep 30 19:25:00 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id TAA20408 for hexagram-8-outgoing; Sat, 30 Sep 2000 19:25:00 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: apocalypse.org: majordom set sender to owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org using -f Received: from scooby.lineone.net (doggy.lineone.net [194.75.152.224]) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA20396 for ; Sat, 30 Sep 2000 19:24:52 -0400 Received: from q8w9y0 (host212-140-21-45.btinternet.com [212.140.21.45]) by scooby.lineone.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id AAA28214 for ; Sun, 1 Oct 2000 00:24:06 +0100 (BST) Message-ID: <001001bffa7e$063dcd00$45affea9@q8w9y0> From: "Hilary Barrett" To: "hexagram-8" Subject: HEX8: Re: specific oracle of hex 35 Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 00:28:48 +0100 Organization: Clarity MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Hi Frank (and all) I agree wholeheartedly with your style of questioning and interpreting - especially the bit about taking time to interpret the answer before concluding it was about something else. But - haven't you ever found that the I Ching was in fact talking about something more important than what you'd asked about? (Who else has had this experience?) It's happened to me just once, I think. What more frequently happens is that my question is answered and in addition I'm told something more important or profound, or confronted with an issue I'd been hiding from. A couple of other questions: you mention your 'own work' - what have you done? (And where can I find it??) - Do you generally think of Hexagram 11 as representing 'imaginative dreams'? (For me it is about realities - unhindered communication, a free flow between human and spirit.) Or did this reading arise from the context? Best wishes, Hilary ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. From owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Sat Sep 30 21:52:19 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id VAA25526 for hexagram-8-outgoing; Sat, 30 Sep 2000 21:52:19 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: apocalypse.org: majordom set sender to owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org using -f Received: from vi-b2.ipcore.viaginterkom.de (ns1.ipcore.viaginterkom.de [195.182.96.60] (may be forged)) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA25521 for ; Sat, 30 Sep 2000 21:52:16 -0400 Received: from planet-interkom.de (f-166.munchen.ipdial.viaginterkom.de [62.180.151.166]) by vi-b2.ipcore.viaginterkom.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id DAA08287 for ; Sun, 1 Oct 2000 03:39:29 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <39D6A61C.1B7F021A@planet-interkom.de> Date: Sun, 01 Oct 2000 03:49:02 +0100 From: Michael Lutzeier X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en,zh-CN,de,nl MIME-Version: 1.0 To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Subject: Re: HEX8: Re: specific oracle of hex 35 References: <001001bffa7e$063dcd00$45affea9@q8w9y0> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Hilary Barrett wrote: > ..... But - haven't you ever found that > the I Ching was in fact talking about something more important than what > you'd asked about? (Who else has had this experience?) It's happened to me > just once, I think. .... Hello Hilary and all, Revising my personal records I found out, I tended to think this more often than it actually happened. But it did happen now and then, even if the "superficial" situation is always involved in as you say too. ".....I'm told something more important or profound, or confronted with an issue I'd been hiding from....." I agree with you, the book is a friend and friends are welcome to unveil weakness. All the best, Michael ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. From owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Sat Sep 30 23:33:59 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA29709 for hexagram-8-outgoing; Sat, 30 Sep 2000 23:33:59 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: apocalypse.org: majordom set sender to owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org using -f Received: from mail2.rdc1.sfba.home.com (mail2.rdc1.sfba.home.com [24.0.0.75]) by apocalypse.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA29705 for ; Sat, 30 Sep 2000 23:33:57 -0400 Received: from Donna ([24.16.38.96]) by mail2.rdc1.sfba.home.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.00 201-229-121) with SMTP id <20001001033351.VTAT6679.mail2.rdc1.sfba.home.com@Donna> for ; Sat, 30 Sep 2000 20:33:51 -0700 From: "Donna Fitzgerald" To: Subject: RE: HEX8: Re: specific oracle of hex 35 Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2000 20:33:52 -0700 Message-ID: <000401c02b58$6ba892a0$6501a8c0@stasysinc> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <39D6A61C.1B7F021A@planet-interkom.de> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Sender: owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Hilary, I would say I find this about 5% of the total readings, which means definitely more than once. So 1 out of every 20 times I ask a question I get a reading that I think answers the question I really wanted to ask or the question I should have asked. The interesting thing about this is that it's a completely subjective process, but it's the primary reason I work with the I-Ching. I want to know what it is I'm not seeing... Donna > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org > [mailto:owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org]On Behalf Of Michael Lutzeier > Sent: Saturday, September 30, 2000 6:49 PM > To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org > Subject: Re: HEX8: Re: specific oracle of hex 35 > > > > > Hilary Barrett wrote: > > > ..... But - haven't you ever found that > > the I Ching was in fact talking about something more important than what > > you'd asked about? (Who else has had this experience?) It's > happened to me > > just once, I think. .... > > Hello Hilary and all, > > Revising my personal records I found out, I tended to think this > more often > than it actually happened. But it did happen now and then, even if the > "superficial" situation is always involved in as you say too. > ".....I'm told something more important or profound, or > confronted with an issue I'd been hiding from....." > I agree with you, the book is a friend and friends are welcome to unveil > weakness. > > > > > All the best, > > Michael > > > > > > > ===== > To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org > from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. > > ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE.