From owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Wed Oct 3 06:15:39 2001 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by apocalypse.org (8.11.2/8.11.0) id f93AFdZ30172 for hexagram-8-outgoing; Wed, 3 Oct 2001 06:15:39 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: apocalypse.org: majordom set sender to owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org using -f Received: from relay.planetinternet.be (relay.planetinternet.be [194.119.232.24]) by apocalypse.org (8.11.2/8.11.0) with ESMTP id f93AFbY30168 for ; Wed, 3 Oct 2001 06:15:37 -0400 Received: from pin20758 (u212-239-132-48.dialup.planetinternet.be [212.239.132.48]) by relay.planetinternet.be (8.11.6/8.9.3) with SMTP id f93AFTO08793 for ; Wed, 3 Oct 2001 12:15:29 +0200 Message-ID: <004d01c14bf3$e2822280$cb84efd4@pin20758> From: "Danny Van den Berghe" To: References: <4b.11407209.28d61a37@aol.com> <000f01c140ff$f91c3ca0$317279c3@heybo002> Subject: HEX8: new article Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2001 11:54:39 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Hi all, A new, revised and expanded version of the "Explanation of King Wen's order of the hexagrams" is now up on my site: www.ping.be/icrea/explan.html All the best, Danny ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. From owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Mon Oct 8 17:14:34 2001 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by apocalypse.org (8.11.2/8.11.0) id f98LEYR23282 for hexagram-8-outgoing; Mon, 8 Oct 2001 17:14:34 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: apocalypse.org: majordom set sender to owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org using -f Received: from imo-m08.mx.aol.com (imo-m08.mx.aol.com [64.12.136.163]) by apocalypse.org (8.11.2/8.11.0) with ESMTP id f98LEWY23265 for ; Mon, 8 Oct 2001 17:14:32 -0400 Received: from FKegan@aol.com by imo-m08.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v31_r1.7.) id h.12d.5b8dc2b (3869); Mon, 8 Oct 2001 17:14:21 -0400 (EDT) From: FKegan@aol.com Message-ID: <12d.5b8dc2b.28f3712c@aol.com> Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2001 17:14:20 EDT Subject: HEX8: Re:King Wen Sequence To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org CC: icrea@iname.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_12d.5b8dc2b.28f3712c_boundary" X-Mailer: AOL 6.0 for Windows US sub 10535 Sender: owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org --part1_12d.5b8dc2b.28f3712c_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Danny, It is a lovely illustrated article on the King Wen sequence and if the Chinese were without written philosophy or the hexagrams known only by their mute drawing upon some tomb wall an excellent application of modern American concepts to their interpretation. Looking at the commentaries that exist, such as in the Wilhelm text, there is another way to explain the sequence that follows your use of the trigrams for meaning but without the curves and other fancy illustrations. Looking at the Wilhelm comments on hexagrams 11 and 31 there is a brief mention that the Hexagrams are organized in sets of 10 and dividing in half at hexagram 30. Looking at the meanings of Chinese ideograms (such as King) there is generally a division in Chinese philosophy into three domains, earth, man and heaven. Applying these together, that would make the first set of 10, refer to the water cycle. In Weiger's Chinese Characters the ideogram for Ch'ien the name for hexagram One is derived from the image of the rays of the sun turning the mist of a swamp into vapor which will form clouds to rain upon the crops. A concrete image of the Water Cycle. In your comments you note that hexagrams 3, 4,5,6,7,8 all involve the trigram of running water. With hexagram 1 being sunshine powering the water cycle and hexagram 10 being water collected in a lake with sunshine starting to evaporate for the next cycle it would seem the water cycle is the theme of that first set. Explaining the exact sequence requires using other metaphysics than modern math. The great theme of the Pythagoreans is described by 1+2+3+4= 10 which doesn't mean much today, but as "the perspective of the Monad combined with the Dyad, Triad and Tetrad (or double dichotomy) forms the entire Kosmos it describes a metaphysics also available in Ancient China which describes each of the hexagrams in sequence. I believe I already went through the details of the water cycle correspondence in an earlier post to Hex-8, in any event it is only of interest if the concept makes sense to you. Frank --part1_12d.5b8dc2b.28f3712c_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Danny,
   It is a lovely illustrated article on the King Wen sequence and if the Chinese were without written philosophy or the hexagrams known only by their mute drawing upon some tomb wall an excellent application of modern American concepts to their interpretation.
    Looking at the commentaries that exist, such as in the Wilhelm text, there is another way to explain the sequence that follows your use of the trigrams for meaning but without the curves and other fancy illustrations.
    Looking at the Wilhelm comments on hexagrams 11 and 31 there is a brief mention that the Hexagrams are organized in sets of 10 and dividing in half at hexagram 30. Looking at the meanings of Chinese ideograms (such as King) there is generally a division in Chinese philosophy into three domains, earth, man and heaven. Applying these together, that would make the first set of 10, refer to the water cycle. In Weiger's Chinese Characters the ideogram for Ch'ien the name for hexagram One is derived from the image of the rays of the sun turning the mist of a swamp into vapor which will form clouds to rain upon the crops. A concrete image of the Water Cycle.
    In your comments you note that hexagrams 3, 4,5,6,7,8 all involve the trigram of running water. With hexagram 1 being sunshine powering the water cycle and hexagram 10 being water collected in a lake with sunshine starting to evaporate for the next cycle it would seem the water cycle is the theme of that first set.
    Explaining the exact sequence requires using other metaphysics than modern math. The great theme of the Pythagoreans is described by 1+2+3+4= 10 which doesn't mean much today, but as "the perspective of the Monad combined with the Dyad, Triad and Tetrad (or double dichotomy) forms the entire Kosmos it describes a metaphysics also available in Ancient China which describes each of the hexagrams in sequence.
    I believe I already went through the details of the water cycle correspondence in an earlier post to Hex-8, in any event it is only of interest if the concept makes sense to you.
Frank --part1_12d.5b8dc2b.28f3712c_boundary-- ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. From owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Thu Oct 11 13:51:00 2001 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by apocalypse.org (8.11.2/8.11.0) id f9BHp0I17101 for hexagram-8-outgoing; Thu, 11 Oct 2001 13:51:00 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: apocalypse.org: majordom set sender to owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org using -f Received: from ns1.cancunwebhosting.com ([161.58.178.50]) by apocalypse.org (8.11.2/8.11.0) with ESMTP id f9BHowY17096 for ; Thu, 11 Oct 2001 13:50:58 -0400 Received: from bernhard-400 (dup-200-64-40-183.prodigy.net.mx [200.64.40.183]) by ns1.cancunwebhosting.com (8.11.2/8.9.3) with ESMTP id f9BHosH23166 for ; Thu, 11 Oct 2001 13:50:55 -0400 From: "Bernhard Pfennigschmidt" Organization: Cancun Online To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 13:05:34 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: HEX8: new article Message-ID: <3BC5991E.32353.4EB0BF@localhost> In-reply-to: <004d01c14bf3$e2822280$cb84efd4@pin20758> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v4.0, beta 40) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-description: Mail message body Sender: owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Hello Danny Hello All Long time since my last post.... This is the most complete and consistent interpretation of the i ching numbers on the web. But my own experiments tell me that the I ching is fractal, it can be ordered in any way possible. see http://www.cancun.com/db/sipp/ra.php?lin=on But there are some special sorts which seem to be more meaningful than others. King wen is one, binary another. I had found some relations between the king wen and the binary order, which had to do with the cubic display, but I forgot the details. If anyone is interested, I can try to find the notices see http://www.cancun.com/sipp6/cube/thecube.stm for the cubic binary order The beauty of this arrangement is that the hexagrams adjacent to any hexagram are only different in one line. Love Bernhard http://www.cancun.com/sipp5/ ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. From owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Tue Oct 16 16:05:44 2001 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by apocalypse.org (8.11.2/8.11.0) id f9GK5iN27833 for hexagram-8-outgoing; Tue, 16 Oct 2001 16:05:44 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: apocalypse.org: majordom set sender to owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org using -f Received: from imo-m10.mx.aol.com (imo-m10.mx.aol.com [64.12.136.165]) by apocalypse.org (8.11.2/8.11.0) with ESMTP id f9GK5gY27828 for ; Tue, 16 Oct 2001 16:05:42 -0400 Received: from Fule@aol.com by imo-m10.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v31_r1.8.) id h.5a.38fecf (30963) for ; Tue, 16 Oct 2001 16:05:32 -0400 (EDT) From: Fule@aol.com Message-ID: <5a.38fecf.28fdec92@aol.com> Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 16:03:30 EDT Subject: HEX8: A Perspective To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_5a.38fecf.28fdec92_boundary" X-Mailer: AOL 6.0 for Windows US sub 10539 Sender: owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org --part1_5a.38fecf.28fdec92_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Language: en A Perspective =20 =20 Realize I am the circumference as well as the center. =20 Recognize something sacred in the daily environment. =20 Learn from music. =20 What=E2=80=99s the best use of the time? =20 Living is what I am doing now. =20 Something gave me life. =20 =20 Question: Should I post =E2=80=98A Perspective=E2=80=99 to the I Ching lists= ? Response: Hexagram 15 changing to Hexagram 45; lines 3, 4& 5 moving. Reference: Wilhelm/Baynes translation. =02 --part1_5a.38fecf.28fdec92_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Language: en A Perspective
=20
=20
Realize I am the circumference as well as the center.
=20
Recognize something sacred in the daily environment.
=20
Learn from music.
=20
What=E2=80=99s the best use of the time?
=20
Living is what I am doing now.
=20
Something gave me life.
=20
=20
Question: Should I post =E2=80=98A Perspective=E2=80=99 to the I Ching l= ists?
Response: Hexagram 15 changing to Hexagram 45; lines 3, 4& 5 moving.
Reference: Wilhelm/Baynes translation.
=02 --part1_5a.38fecf.28fdec92_boundary-- ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. From owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Wed Oct 24 10:07:11 2001 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by apocalypse.org (8.11.2/8.11.0) id f9OE7Bi08059 for hexagram-8-outgoing; Wed, 24 Oct 2001 10:07:11 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: apocalypse.org: majordom set sender to owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org using -f Received: from cmailg4.svr.pol.co.uk (cmailg4.svr.pol.co.uk [195.92.195.174]) by apocalypse.org (8.11.2/8.11.0) with ESMTP id f9OE79208055 for ; Wed, 24 Oct 2001 10:07:09 -0400 Received: from [195.92.168.141] (helo=tmailb1.svr.pol.co.uk) by cmailg4.svr.pol.co.uk with esmtp (Exim 3.13 #0) id 15wOgV-0001p4-00 for hexagram-8@apocalypse.org; Wed, 24 Oct 2001 15:07:07 +0100 Received: from modem-3079.python.dialup.pol.co.uk ([217.134.220.7] helo=m7k8o4) by tmailb1.svr.pol.co.uk with smtp (Exim 3.13 #0) id 15wOgT-0000xE-00 for hexagram-8@apocalypse.org; Wed, 24 Oct 2001 15:07:06 +0100 Message-ID: <002101c15c96$3b6662a0$07dc86d9@m7k8o4> From: "Hilary Barrett" To: "hexagram-8" Subject: HEX8: 25, line 2: this calls for an expert in Chinese! Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 15:14:01 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Sender: owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Hello all, I've just been looking at 25, line 2 - not for the first or last time... - and wondering... There doesn't seem to be any real doubt about the literal translation: Not plough crop/harvest Not clear-for-cultivation ploughland (ie land already under the plough for a year or so) And therefore beneficial(/harvest) to have a direction to go. But this is of course blindingly obvious. You don't drag the plough over the crop; you don't clear land that's already cleared and ploughed. Wilhelm has expunged the absurd from this line by turning it into 'not counting on the harvest when ploughing', which is well and good but not what it says. Huang has the same - looking at Lynn's notes, it seems they both take this from Chu Hsi. Karcher just says it isn't time to farm, and doesn't seem to notice that tilling crops isn't the way to go about farming anyway. (Uncharacteristically feeble!) Rutt ingeniously turns it round, making some sense with minimal change - reaping without first having ploughed; tilling without first having cleared. Impossible (unless you just took over someone else's patch), but obviously fortunate. Perhaps a 'lilies of the field' message? Richard Lynn's translation has a host of suggestions in the notes. Not ploughing but reaping, not clearing but tending mature fields, ie working for someone else rather than starting something new individually. (Wang Bi) Cheng Yi: you don't reap without first ploughing nor have a field without first clearing it. Help! I need a Chinese speaker! Is not-verb-object the natural way to read this? (Hugely relieved to see that this is how Bradford has it!) (LiSe - possibly my favourite translator :-) - has 'not-verb-verb', ie not doing either, but dwelling in the present.) As it seems to me - this might just be the Yi being funny... The most obvious message (subject to correction from the Chinese speakers!) seems to be that it's not wise to do things in the wrong order, starting from scratch and destroying the capital you've built up already. Is this a possible reading? And is there a translator or interpreter I haven't referred to who got there before me? ...help?... all best wishes, Hilary P.S. Hope no-one minds the cross posting. I tend to do so when I really want to pick every brain available... ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. From owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Wed Oct 24 11:50:23 2001 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by apocalypse.org (8.11.2/8.11.0) id f9OFoNu14765 for hexagram-8-outgoing; Wed, 24 Oct 2001 11:50:23 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: apocalypse.org: majordom set sender to owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org using -f Received: from imo-r03.mx.aol.com (imo-r03.mx.aol.com [152.163.225.99]) by apocalypse.org (8.11.2/8.11.0) with ESMTP id f9OFoM214761 for ; Wed, 24 Oct 2001 11:50:22 -0400 Received: from Fule@aol.com by imo-r03.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v31_r1.8.) id h.fe.e0d008e (3965) for ; Wed, 24 Oct 2001 11:50:12 -0400 (EDT) From: Fule@aol.com Message-ID: Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 11:50:17 EDT Subject: HEX8: Discovering our Nature 2 To: Hexagram-8@apocalypse.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Language: en X-Mailer: AOL 7.0 for Windows US sub 118 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by apocalypse.org id f9OFoM214762 Sender: owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org (continuation of Discovering our Nature 1) It doesn't matter what one does or what one's path is, one has to be alive to follow it. Life is the sanctum. We each have been so concerned with our personal agendas we didn't pay attention to the course of those so self-consumed they would wontedly spray death as a way to pre-empt the course of nature. We'd better start paying attention to those who use violence so selfishly. We'd better start paying attention to our own complicity in allowing such a death-wish to fester on this small planet. In ancient times the Mandate of Heaven began as an event as the Zhou dynasty replaced the Shang. But the Mandate continued as a perspective by which to view the relationship between man and Heaven. It continued as a living motivator for over 3,000 years. It is re-animated today as we come into the realm that we are not passengers on this voyage; we are participants. Participants have responsibility to themselves and to Heaven. Among that which the ancients of all races teach us is that progress, indeed the totality of life, occurs in stages. We can see this whenever we take a moment to reflect on the process of life. It is taught in the emphasis on the seasons whereby the year or the day or the phase rotates from something known to something else in its natural order. The simplicity is when we were uprooted from our selves we were delivered to that which continues, to that which we share, to that point wherein we bond because it is more deeply fundamental, to that state we basically share but have forgotten. The reality is this is not some intellectual concept; it is something we know first-hand for it is something we have all experienced. We can't hold that experience for it is such a shock we are in fear of it, but we are suspended between it and what was taken for granted in the moment just before the attacks. At the first shock our world collapsed but at the second shock we were ushered into the heart of our nature and there we found our differences had vanished. Such a jolt initially brings confusion. I had thought I was a bright enough fellow but as I opened to the credentials of the situation it became clear I had been sleeping. I had become distracted from something both precious and in-my-face real. The ramifications of the first shock are fundamentally simple: either civilization continues its downward spiral, or we confront the reality that we must come together to limit those who would so abuse freedom. Ours is a job of work -- not to underestimate nor to succumb to infection, but to recognize and concentrate on the reality of our actual potential, i.e., something that needs to be done for its own sake. In the din of the initial confusion I had missed the simplicity that the attack so transgressed the natural order. It took later reflection to validate how the heart of humanity responded … the heroes of 93 who showed us resolve that foiled a greater evil … the behavior of those who protect us and demonstrate the essence of duty … the families who grieve and those who came together in uncounted ways to help … the gathering together of aspects of ourselves and the gathering together of points-of-view. This is not a war of religions; it is a war of focus. It is a war dependent on leaders - whether we refer to ourselves individually or leadership in more conventional ways - and where their efforts are placed. Whatever the person or nation or religion or sect or auspices, we are all being held hostage by a few who manipulate those of no hope -- by those few who sell casual death as a product they demand we buy. Whatever the level of complicity, be it commission or omission, we slide toward the pit. It's simple: we the people must propel leadership out of its miasma. Now is the time to stabilize to the gravity of the situation and prepare to help each other. There is a need to affect a normalcy but also to prepare, for they have resources and the advantage of time, so our first task is to catch up to the reality. It is difficult for we have become lazy and self-absorbed because the times would permit it … but that interlude is a part of our past. We have ceded leadership of ourselves by not keeping our priorities straight. What is at stake here is a concerted and prolonged effort to destroy the greater family of man. If we're wanting to live the fullest lives we can, we'd better get used to adjusting the ways we deal with life. If we're wanting to pass civilization along to those who follow, we'd better come into context with what is most important now. Life arises from love and love translates into humanity. Humanity is under siege. Those who hear the call can allow divergent parts to come together. With our collective backs to the wall we must each become leaders and learn from the process. This new footing has been with us all along; but in this now we can participate with it in awareness. For the second shock literally puts us of a different mind. We have lost touch with the obvious-ness that we are grounded in living-ness and yet here we are jolted into the reality that our nature is full to the brim of what we do not know about ourselves. We have experienced an energetic change which has demonstrated the simplicity that we have the capacity to change. We have experienced something outside of self. That door has been opened and in its opening there exists an energy we can all feel. The presence of energy means we are funded, i.e. we have the capacity to use the energy in ways we have not been conscious of energy before. There is need to extend the gathering of ourselves into our daily awareness. There is no need for bravado. There is no need of violence; there is need to excise a cancer. There is need to direct ourselves toward that which allows daily renewal. There is need to pay attention to what happened to us as we joined together, a need to recognize it as a pivot in all our lives. There is need to recognize that as the world bonded into an accumulated No, it took a stand for life; we thereby arose together to say Yes. There is need to pay attention to the heart and recognize it collects us. We have only known separation; now we begin to unite. A sense of the second shock is the simplicity of awe. Our eyes are directed toward the heavens. Question: Should I post Discovering our Nature to the I Ching lists? Response: Hexagram #7 changing to #2, second line moving. Following a spontaneous event that seemed to confirm, I rephrased and asked again: Response: Hexagram #19 changing to #61; top two lines moving. Reference: Wilhelm/Baynes translation. ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. From owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Wed Oct 24 14:46:13 2001 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by apocalypse.org (8.11.2/8.11.0) id f9OIkD126072 for hexagram-8-outgoing; Wed, 24 Oct 2001 14:46:13 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: apocalypse.org: majordom set sender to owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org using -f Received: from imo-r06.mx.aol.com (imo-r06.mx.aol.com [152.163.225.102]) by apocalypse.org (8.11.2/8.11.0) with ESMTP id f9OIkC226066 for ; Wed, 24 Oct 2001 14:46:12 -0400 Received: from Fule@aol.com by imo-r06.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v31_r1.8.) id h.157.2f25f27 (3965) for ; Wed, 24 Oct 2001 14:46:06 -0400 (EDT) From: Fule@aol.com Message-ID: <157.2f25f27.2908666e@aol.com> Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 14:46:06 EDT Subject: HEX8: B-Discovering our Nature 1 To: Hexagram-8@apocalypse.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 7.0 for Windows US sub 118 Sender: owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org (Note: this is the second of three posts comprising this message. The overall sequence is 1A, 1B, i.e., this post, and 2.) Everything changed September 11, 2001, the day the world said No. It said No to indiscriminate death. It said No to allowing those who would use a bucket line of death as a political statement. It said No to the path such blasphemy will lead us toward. It said No to such a breach of Natural Law. The experience of saying No together began to bring us together. We can already recognize a bonding between the sexes, the races, the religions and between those who provide our protection and ourselves. As we get to know people - individuals - the old models of prejudice for groups are simply discarded. As we get to appreciate what we share, our fear of difference dissolves. When our survival is on the line all other distractions are forgotten. We trust that our institutions are secure, but when that comfort level is instantly ripped from us, nothing seems solid anymore. We found solidity in what we share at a deeper level than ego, a new kind of security, precarious but penetratingly real. We have been shaken - collectively and personally - to our very roots. There is a sense of trying to get back to normal, but in this new moment, now is normal. We don't understand what the new rules might become, but we do share the daily reality of searching for our priorities in light of actual contact with our very Being. Fate delivered us unto the passage of a series of shocks, and we are still in shock. We were witness to the cold, inhuman presence of evil. Our destiny was to watch as thousands of our sisters and brothers were sacrificed by those whose self-interest had exploded; we were served up to the very definition of evil. It was genocide orchestrated for media appeal, the wretch of wholesale manipulation, the corruption of life hammered directly into the pit of our stomachs. Through it came marching the heroes, those who showed us the still-alive part of ourselves, or that which was made real by the sacrifice of innocents. The people at the Pentagon died in protection of us. In New York people were treated as faceless symbols in some now-forgotten agenda of hate, yet the stories of people helping others are too numerous to count. On flight 93 heroes moved past the model of self-interest to demonstrate that by their sacrifice terrorism fails. But there was another mode of shock, a completely different kind of shock, a shock in a strange way that was almost a different subject than the first. We came together. We bonded with fellow humans of a similar kind, we flowed together with humans of different kinds, we were ushered into the province of knowing we are one. New York, known as the most implacable point on earth, became one person. Fire and rescue did their job spontaneously and touched that spot in our hearts where we are joined. Heroes all over the world threw off their separateness to unify. We experienced a latent part of our nature, we experienced resurrection. In coming together we honor those who have come before us. In coming together we install an example for all who come after us for we have experienced in awareness something of that center from whence we derive. Together we have experienced what is more basic than self. We each found it to be different and we each found it to be the same. It is something we cannot verbalize but something nonetheless we all now know. We have found that when we are confronted with the unspeakable, we go toward what sustains us. We go to our nature, to the preciousness by which we regard life. We have been exposed to the worst in man and have thus been exposed to that which is worst in ourselves. For this to have happened we had to have been complacent. For this to have happened we have had to be asleep to the extremes of which the human animal is capable. (Note: The third part -- in a separate post -- concludes this series. I apologize for the confusion but I wasn't aware of the protocols of the length filter until the third part had already gone through.) ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. From owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Wed Oct 24 16:06:05 2001 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by apocalypse.org (8.11.2/8.11.0) id f9OK65230601 for hexagram-8-outgoing; Wed, 24 Oct 2001 16:06:05 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: apocalypse.org: majordom set sender to owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org using -f Received: from imo-r02.mx.aol.com (imo-r02.mx.aol.com [152.163.225.98]) by apocalypse.org (8.11.2/8.11.0) with ESMTP id f9OK63230596 for ; Wed, 24 Oct 2001 16:06:03 -0400 Received: from Fule@aol.com by imo-r02.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v31_r1.8.) id h.16c.2d7a566 (3965) for ; Wed, 24 Oct 2001 16:05:56 -0400 (EDT) From: Fule@aol.com Message-ID: <16c.2d7a566.29087924@aol.com> Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 16:05:56 EDT Subject: HEX8: A--Discovering our Nature 1 (1A) To: Hexagram-8@apocalypse.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Language: en X-Mailer: AOL 7.0 for Windows US sub 118 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by apocalypse.org id f9OK64230598 Sender: owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org (Note: this post is the first part of a 3-part series sent today.) Discovering our Nature As I write this there are thousands grieving, for within scant weeks there has been carnage inflicted by those who would place themselves beyond the highest. As I write this there are millions grieving for these same acts touch us deeply at levels we cannot describe. The people most affected - those who died in unspeakable ways -- are all heroes. We honor them as our ancestors. Those of us who are left have allowed the heroism of the dead to shake us. For what is at stake here is not as much frozen in our own predicaments as much as what we have shared; what we have witnessed is a literal demonstration of anti-life, it is the recognition of the fetid, a horrible crime against the wonder of living, a curse against the totality of civilization. It was a crime against the teachings of religion and the will of humanity. I know we each have great difficulty in expressing what happened, but to me it was fundamentally a crime against nature. When we come into this perspective we can turn to ancient texts. Self-absorption acting against nature (i.e. nature, the community of nature, human nature) is an oft included subject in both the Tao Te Ching and the Chuang Tzu (for example, see Chapter 16 in either). Through the Confucian lineage we can appreciate this same thread regarding the I Ching. The written version (the Zhouyi) was in ample part derived from the Mandate of Heaven, or the ordinance received by King Wen and completed by King Wu (which said it was the duty of man to rule but should the rule be unjust it would be the course of Heaven to replace the ruler). This is the mainspring of nature, man working in concert with the unseen world. We know our awareness has changed since the I Ching was written over 2,800 years ago. We no longer live with the earth as a sacred place, we no longer have a sacred relationship with our food or the heavenly process, but we still live on the same earth. We know they sacrificed as a part of their religion, but that human sacrifice was ended at about the same time the I Ching was written. We know our awareness has changed and the rules seem to keep changing but the principles remain the same. For we also know one of the primary things we can learn is about context. We can't duplicate their world but we can avail ourselves of their wisdom and its ramifications as it is expressed in the context of now. Who among us didn't feel the attack and its consequences at an energetic level? Who didn't feel the shift in our nature as our ground was pulled out from under us … we each may not refer to it as energetic change, but to a person, we each experienced it. We went from numbness and confusion toward a state recognizing there were others who felt like ourselves; indeed we discovered in the actions of those who died, in the shock of the entire world and in our neighbor from across the street, a commonality. (Note: I apologize for the confusion arising from splitting 'Discovering our Nature' into three separate posts -- 1A, this post; 1B, the next post; and 2, the concluding part. If you are interested in the complete version, contact me off-list and I'll send it to you.) ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. From owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Wed Oct 24 16:10:34 2001 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by apocalypse.org (8.11.2/8.11.0) id f9OKAYi30940 for hexagram-8-outgoing; Wed, 24 Oct 2001 16:10:34 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: apocalypse.org: majordom set sender to owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org using -f Received: from linnaeus.ludism.org (ludism.org [63.225.161.90]) by apocalypse.org (8.11.2/8.11.0) with ESMTP id f9OKAV230936 for ; Wed, 24 Oct 2001 16:10:32 -0400 Received: from rwhe by linnaeus.ludism.org with local (Exim 3.12 #1 (Debian)) id 15wUM9-0000Ae-00 for ; Wed, 24 Oct 2001 13:10:29 -0700 Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 13:10:28 -0700 To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Subject: HEX8: Discovering Our Nature 1A (bounced message) Message-ID: <20011024131028.D30353@ludism.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i From: Ronald Hale-Evans Sender: owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org ----- Forwarded message from owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org ----- >From owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Wed Oct 24 14:37:09 2001 Received: from imo-r06.mx.aol.com (imo-r06.mx.aol.com [152.163.225.102]) by apocalypse.org (8.11.2/8.11.0) with ESMTP id f9OIb6225510 for ; Wed, 24 Oct 2001 14:37:07 -0400 Received: from Fule@aol.com by imo-r06.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v31_r1.8.) id h.15b.2f6d9a2 (3965) for ; Wed, 24 Oct 2001 14:36:32 -0400 (EDT) From: Fule@aol.com Message-ID: <15b.2f6d9a2.2908642f@aol.com> Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 14:36:31 EDT Subject: A-Discovering our Nature 1 To: Hexagram-8@apocalypse.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Language: en X-Mailer: AOL 7.0 for Windows US sub 118 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by apocalypse.org id f9OIb9225512 Discovering our Nature As I write this there are thousands grieving, for within scant weeks there has been carnage inflicted by those who would place themselves beyond the highest. As I write this there are millions grieving for these same acts touch us deeply at levels we cannot describe. The people most affected - those who died in unspeakable ways -- are all heroes. We honor them as our ancestors. Those of us who are left have allowed the heroism of the dead to shake us. For what is at stake here is not as much frozen in our own predicaments as much as what we have shared; what we have witnessed is a literal demonstration of anti-life, it is the recognition of the fetid, a horrible crime against the wonder of living, a curse against the totality of civilization. It was a crime against the teachings of religion and the will of humanity. I know we each have great difficulty in expressing what happened, but to me it was fundamentally a crime against nature. When we come into this perspective we can turn to ancient texts. Self-absorption acting against nature (i.e. nature, the community of nature, human nature) is an oft included subject in both the Tao Te Ching and the Chuang Tzu (for example, see Chapter 16 in either). Through the Confucian lineage we can appreciate this same thread regarding the I Ching. The written version (the Zhouyi) was in ample part derived from the Mandate of Heaven, or the ordinance received by King Wen and completed by King Wu (which said it was the duty of man to rule but should the rule be unjust it would be the course of Heaven to replace the ruler). This is the mainspring of nature, man working in concert with the unseen world. We know our awareness has changed since the I Ching was written over 2,800 years ago. We no longer live with the earth as a sacred place, we no longer have a sacred relationship with our food or the heavenly process, but we still live on the same earth. We know they sacrificed as a part of their religion, but that human sacrifice was ended at about the same time the I Ching was written. We know our awareness has changed and the rules seem to keep changing but the principles remain the same. For we also know one of the primary things we can learn is about context. We can't duplicate their world but we can avail ourselves of their wisdom and its ramifications as it is expressed in the context of now. Who among us didn't feel the attack and its consequences at an energetic level? Who didn't feel the shift in our nature as our ground was pulled out from under us … we each may not refer to it as energetic change, but to a person, we each experienced it. We went from numbness and confusion toward a state recognizing there were others who felt like ourselves; indeed we discovered in the actions of those who died, in the shock of the entire world and in our neighbor from across the street, a commonality. (Note: Because of length, this message is in three posts - Discovering our Nature A1, then B1, then Discovering our Nature 2. Sorry for the confusion.) ----- End forwarded message ----- -- Ron Hale-Evans ... rwhe@ludism.org & rwhe@apocalypse.org Center for Ludic Synergy, Seattle Cosmic Game Night, Kennexions Glass Bead Game & Positive Revolution FAQ: http://www.ludism.org/ Home page & Hexagram-8 I Ching Mailing List: http://www.apocalypse.org/~rwhe/ == You meet the most interesting people when you're a solipsist. == ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. From owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Thu Oct 25 03:37:33 2001 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by apocalypse.org (8.11.2/8.11.0) id f9P7bXV27065 for hexagram-8-outgoing; Thu, 25 Oct 2001 03:37:33 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: apocalypse.org: majordom set sender to owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org using -f Received: from imo-r08.mx.aol.com (imo-r08.mx.aol.com [152.163.225.104]) by apocalypse.org (8.11.2/8.11.0) with ESMTP id f9P7bW227060 for ; Thu, 25 Oct 2001 03:37:32 -0400 Received: from SaadEYKI@aol.com by imo-r08.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v31_r1.8.) id h.5b.1d9bf3be (3999) for ; Thu, 25 Oct 2001 03:37:25 -0400 (EDT) From: SaadEYKI@aol.com Message-ID: <5b.1d9bf3be.29091b35@aol.com> Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 03:37:25 EDT Subject: Re: HEX8: Discovering our Nature 2 To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Mac sub 207 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by apocalypse.org id f9P7bW227061 Sender: owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Dans un courrier daté du 24/10/01 17:51:52, Fule@aol.com a écrit : <> -Can you explain what do you mean ? ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. From owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Thu Oct 25 03:39:07 2001 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by apocalypse.org (8.11.2/8.11.0) id f9P7d7t27117 for hexagram-8-outgoing; Thu, 25 Oct 2001 03:39:07 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: apocalypse.org: majordom set sender to owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org using -f Received: from imo-m02.mx.aol.com (imo-m02.mx.aol.com [64.12.136.5]) by apocalypse.org (8.11.2/8.11.0) with ESMTP id f9P7d6227113 for ; Thu, 25 Oct 2001 03:39:06 -0400 Received: from SaadEYKI@aol.com by imo-m02.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v31_r1.8.) id h.b6.a54f99 (3999) for ; Thu, 25 Oct 2001 03:38:56 -0400 (EDT) From: SaadEYKI@aol.com Message-ID: Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 03:38:56 EDT Subject: Re: HEX8: Discovering our Nature 2 To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Language: en X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Mac sub 207 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by apocalypse.org id f9P7d6227114 Sender: owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Dans un courrier daté du 24/10/01 17:51:52, Fule@aol.com a écrit : <> -It is your own personnal opinion or something you receive from Heaven… ??!!! ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. From owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Thu Oct 25 03:44:12 2001 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by apocalypse.org (8.11.2/8.11.0) id f9P7iC127207 for hexagram-8-outgoing; Thu, 25 Oct 2001 03:44:12 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: apocalypse.org: majordom set sender to owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org using -f Received: from imo-r01.mx.aol.com (imo-r01.mx.aol.com [152.163.225.97]) by apocalypse.org (8.11.2/8.11.0) with ESMTP id f9P7iB227203 for ; Thu, 25 Oct 2001 03:44:11 -0400 Received: from SaadEYKI@aol.com by imo-r01.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v31_r1.8.) id h.d7.df4aa3c (3999) for ; Thu, 25 Oct 2001 03:44:05 -0400 (EDT) From: SaadEYKI@aol.com Message-ID: Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 03:44:04 EDT Subject: Re: HEX8: Discovering our Nature 2 To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Mac sub 207 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by apocalypse.org id f9P7iB227204 Sender: owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Dans un courrier daté du 24/10/01 17:51:52, Fule@aol.com a écrit : <> -Do you think it is a good idea or it is in off only because you receive the answer, this answer ? You are a good soldier ! Are you a soldier of love ? How beautiful is ! Tell us how do you feel ! ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. From owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Thu Oct 25 03:48:24 2001 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by apocalypse.org (8.11.2/8.11.0) id f9P7mOY27291 for hexagram-8-outgoing; Thu, 25 Oct 2001 03:48:24 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: apocalypse.org: majordom set sender to owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org using -f Received: from imo-m06.mx.aol.com (imo-m06.mx.aol.com [64.12.136.161]) by apocalypse.org (8.11.2/8.11.0) with ESMTP id f9P7mM227285 for ; Thu, 25 Oct 2001 03:48:22 -0400 Received: from SaadEYKI@aol.com by imo-m06.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v31_r1.8.) id h.136.38eff40 (3999) for ; Thu, 25 Oct 2001 03:48:13 -0400 (EDT) From: SaadEYKI@aol.com Message-ID: <136.38eff40.29091dbc@aol.com> Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 03:48:12 EDT Subject: Re: HEX8: A--Discovering our Nature 1 (1A) To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Mac sub 207 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by apocalypse.org id f9P7mN227286 Sender: owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Dans un courrier daté du 24/10/01 22:08:50, Fule@aol.com a écrit : <> -Really ? ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. From owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Fri Oct 26 08:45:19 2001 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by apocalypse.org (8.11.2/8.11.0) id f9QCjJR31587 for hexagram-8-outgoing; Fri, 26 Oct 2001 08:45:19 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: apocalypse.org: majordom set sender to owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org using -f Received: from smtp06.wxs.nl (smtp06.wxs.nl [195.121.6.58]) by apocalypse.org (8.11.2/8.11.0) with ESMTP id f9QCjG231581 for ; Fri, 26 Oct 2001 08:45:17 -0400 Received: from mdu4x ([195.121.114.93]) by smtp06.wxs.nl (Netscape Messaging Server 4.15) with SMTP id GLTCR100.29R for ; Fri, 26 Oct 2001 14:45:01 +0200 Message-ID: <000401c15e1c$2dfaf040$5d7279c3@mdu4x> From: "heybo008" To: References: <002101c15c96$3b6662a0$07dc86d9@m7k8o4> Subject: HEX8: Re: 25, line 2: this calls for an expert in Chinese! Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 20:54:36 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Sender: owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Bu4 geng1 huo4 bu4 zi1 yu2 Bu: not Geng1, GSR.808: plough + 'arable land' (which is the same character as the well of hex.48). Meaning: to plough Huo4, GSR.784h: grain + a bird being caught: to reap, to cut. Bu: not Zi1, GSR.969c: field + water + plants: recently broken field Yu2, GSR.82f: field + plough-share: field in the 3rd (2nd ?) year of cultivation. (GSR is Karcher 'Grammata Serica Recensa') Not ploughing reaping not new field not 2nd year field. Then (as a consequence) harvest having probing proceeding. No but's and yet's in the sentence. (I like the probing, it is the old meaning of " 'direction', gives me more ideas of how to go on, in what kind of mood). Without the buts and yets I think it says simply there is nothing to do, nothing to look after. So go on, you are free to find something worthwhile you really want to do. Or rather: do not BE the things you are supposed to do, if you are free, all will be done when it should be done: by proceeding probing, reacting to the right moment instead of rules. It changes to 10.2: Walking the way, calm and frank. Hermit's determination, auspicious. To live a real life means to be faithful to oneself and to follow one's own road. Out of reach of society this road is straight, but in the world of people one will have to defend it. Hold on to it, always. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Hilary Barrett" To: "hexagram-8" Sent: Wednesday, October 24, 2001 4:14 PM Subject: HEX8: 25, line 2: this calls for an expert in Chinese! > Hello all, > > I've just been looking at 25, line 2 - not for the first or last time... - > and wondering... > There doesn't seem to be any real doubt about the literal translation: > Not plough crop/harvest > Not clear-for-cultivation ploughland (ie land already under the plough for a > year or so) > And therefore beneficial(/harvest) to have a direction to go. > > But this is of course blindingly obvious. You don't drag the plough over the > crop; you don't clear land that's already cleared and ploughed. Wilhelm has > expunged the absurd from this line by turning it into 'not counting on the > harvest when ploughing', which is well and good but not what it says. Huang > has the same - looking at Lynn's notes, it seems they both take this from > Chu Hsi. > > Karcher just says it isn't time to farm, and doesn't seem to notice that > tilling crops isn't the way to go about farming anyway. > (Uncharacteristically feeble!) > > Rutt ingeniously turns it round, making some sense with minimal change - > reaping without first having ploughed; tilling without first having cleared. > Impossible (unless you just took over someone else's patch), but obviously > fortunate. Perhaps a 'lilies of the field' message? > > Richard Lynn's translation has a host of suggestions in the notes. Not > ploughing but reaping, not clearing but tending mature fields, ie working > for someone else rather than starting something new individually. (Wang Bi) > Cheng Yi: you don't reap without first ploughing nor have a field without > first clearing it. > > Help! I need a Chinese speaker! Is not-verb-object the natural way to read > this? (Hugely relieved to see that this is how Bradford has it!) > (LiSe - possibly my favourite translator :-) - has 'not-verb-verb', ie not > doing either, but dwelling in the present.) > > As it seems to me - this might just be the Yi being funny... The most > obvious message (subject to correction from the Chinese speakers!) seems to > be that it's not wise to do things in the wrong order, starting from scratch > and destroying the capital you've built up already. Is this a possible > reading? And is there a translator or interpreter I haven't referred to who > got there before me? > > ...help?... > > all best wishes, > Hilary > > P.S. Hope no-one minds the cross posting. I tend to do so when I really want > to pick every brain available... > > > > ===== > To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org > from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. > ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE.