From owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Fri Apr 5 17:48:29 2002 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by apocalypse.org (8.11.2/8.11.0) id g35MmTa17841 for hexagram-8-outgoing; Fri, 5 Apr 2002 17:48:29 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: apocalypse.org: majordom set sender to owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org using -f Received: from mail.independence.net (s1.independence.net [204.144.177.35]) by apocalypse.org (8.11.2/8.11.0) with SMTP id g35MmRk17835 for ; Fri, 5 Apr 2002 17:48:27 -0500 Received: (qmail 27363 invoked from network); 5 Apr 2002 22:48:04 -0000 Received: from ridgway308.independence.net (HELO independence.net) (204.144.177.72) by mail.independence.net with SMTP; 5 Apr 2002 22:48:04 -0000 Message-ID: <3CAE377F.6FC78B08@independence.net> Date: Fri, 05 Apr 2002 15:47:10 -0800 From: Bradford Hatcher X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.78C-CCK-MCD {C-UDP; EBM-APPLE} (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "hexagram-8@apocalypse.org" Subject: HEX8: new book Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Hi all- I've spent the last two days working with a good new book on the Yijing (seconding Andreas' review): I Ching: An Annotated Bibliography Edward Hacker, Steve Moore and Lorraine Patsco London & NY: Routledge, 2002. 350pp hb I'm disabusing myself of the illusion that somehow my 150 volume library of English works on the Yi was slowly nearing completion. Now it's just a pitiful little dwarf of a library and the hunt's back on for 6 new books, six new theses and a dozen new articles- and that's just the must-haves. I'm glad my librarian has a sense of humor about it all. The book is current through about 2000, and so is missing such recent publications as those of Richard Gotshalk; Chang-Soo Chung; Chan Chiu Ming; Andy Baggot; Brennan; Moran & Yu; etc. Beyond that I couldn't count many omissions. The entries were annotated where possible, maybe averaging a third of a page of content for each entry - enough to get an idea whether purchase is worth investigating. The book has three sections: books and theses, articles and papers, software and mixed media, plus an index. This one is worth checking out. Brad PS- this is pretty much English only. If you are looking for a great Chinese language bibliograhy, check out George Fendos' dissertation. ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. From owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Fri Apr 12 05:41:33 2002 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by apocalypse.org (8.11.6/8.11.0) id g3C9fXl30610 for hexagram-8-outgoing; Fri, 12 Apr 2002 05:41:33 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: apocalypse.org: majordom set sender to owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org using -f Received: from smarthost-2.mail.telinco.net (smarthost-2.mail.telinco.net [212.1.128.91]) by apocalypse.org (8.11.6/8.11.0) with ESMTP id g3C9fWT30606 for ; Fri, 12 Apr 2002 05:41:32 -0400 Received: from ppp-4-114.5800-9.telinco.net ([212.1.139.114] helo=weft.telinco.co.uk) by smarthost-2.mail.telinco.net with esmtp (Exim 3.22 #1) id 16vxYR-000L2l-00 for hexagram-8@apocalypse.org; Fri, 12 Apr 2002 10:41:16 +0100 Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.0.20020412102551.00aab980@pop3.norton.antivirus> X-Sender: tfi015829/mail.telinco.co.uk@pop3.norton.antivirus X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2002 10:35:48 +0100 To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org From: Andreas Schoter Subject: HEX8: Wang Bi's Commentary In-Reply-To: <3CAE377F.6FC78B08@independence.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Hi Folks, I'm reading through Wang Bi's commentary on the Yi (as translated by Richard John Lynn) and I've reached a bit that I'm having difficulty making sense of. In "Cursory Remarks on Some Hexagrams" for hexagram 28 (Major Superiority) 011110 (p37) and hexagram 34 (Great Strength) 111100 (p38) he says "yang lines all occupy yin positions". He uses the same phrase on both occasions. The problem that I have is that I do not see that yang lines *ALL* occupy yin positions. Take Major Superiority: the 1st yang line is in a yin position (i.e. the 2nd line of the gua) but the 2nd yang line is in a yang position (i.e. the 3rd line of the gua). Similarly, the yang line in the 5th place. I appreciate that Wang Bi takes a slightly different view to the character of the places because he says that the first and sixth places are not reckoned when considering yin/yang character, but that still leaves the four nuclear lines. In both of these cases (hex 28 and hex 34) there are clearly yang lines in yang places. Yet he makes that statement. Can anyone shed any light on this? Both misprint and oversight in the translation seem unlikely to me. Many Thanks. Andreas ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. From owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Fri Apr 12 05:41:24 2002 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by apocalypse.org (8.11.6/8.11.0) id g3C9fOT30603 for hexagram-8-outgoing; Fri, 12 Apr 2002 05:41:24 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: apocalypse.org: majordom set sender to owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org using -f Received: from smarthost-2.mail.telinco.net (smarthost-2.mail.telinco.net [212.1.128.91]) by apocalypse.org (8.11.6/8.11.0) with ESMTP id g3C9fMT30599 for ; Fri, 12 Apr 2002 05:41:23 -0400 Received: from ppp-4-114.5800-9.telinco.net ([212.1.139.114] helo=weft.telinco.co.uk) by smarthost-2.mail.telinco.net with esmtp (Exim 3.22 #1) id 16vxYW-000L2l-00 for hexagram-8@apocalypse.org; Fri, 12 Apr 2002 10:41:21 +0100 Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.0.20020412103550.00ab0ec0@pop3.norton.antivirus> X-Sender: tfi015829/mail.telinco.co.uk@pop3.norton.antivirus X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2002 10:39:31 +0100 To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org From: Andreas Schoter Subject: HEX8: Trying to track down a resource In-Reply-To: <3CAE377F.6FC78B08@independence.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Hi Again Folks, Two requests in one sitting! I'm trying to track down the source of a web page article I have been sent on five element theory. I was sent it by Ely Britto, who used to be a member of this list. She seemed to think that it had come from this list. I know attachments are discouraged, so I'll paste the opening few lines. If any one recognizes it and knows where it originally comes from, I'd be grateful. Many Thanks Andreas The Five Energies "The Five Elemental Energies of Wood, Fire, Earth, Metal, and Water encompass all the myriad phenomena of nature. It is a paradigm that applies equally to humans." The Yellow Emperor's Classic of Internal Medicine (second century bc) The Five Elemental Energies (wu sing) represent the tangible activities of yin and yang as manifested in the cyclic changes of nature which regulate life on earth. Also known as the Five Movements (wu yun), they define the various stages of transformation in the recurring natural cycles of seasonal change, growth and decay, shifting climatic conditions, sounds, flavors, emotions, and human physiology. Each energy is associated with the natural element which most closely resembles its function and character, and from these elements they take their names. Unlike the Western and other systems of five elements, the Chinese system focuses on energy and its transformations, not on form and substance. The elements thus symbolize the activities of the energies with which they are associated. ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. From owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Fri Apr 12 06:45:42 2002 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by apocalypse.org (8.11.6/8.11.0) id g3CAjgf32329 for hexagram-8-outgoing; Fri, 12 Apr 2002 06:45:42 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: apocalypse.org: majordom set sender to owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org using -f Received: from mail7.svr.pol.co.uk (mail7.svr.pol.co.uk [195.92.193.21]) by apocalypse.org (8.11.6/8.11.0) with ESMTP id g3CAjfT32321 for ; Fri, 12 Apr 2002 06:45:41 -0400 Received: from [195.92.168.141] (helo=tmailb1.svr.pol.co.uk) by mail7.svr.pol.co.uk with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1) id 16vyYl-0004Sy-00 for hexagram-8@apocalypse.org; Fri, 12 Apr 2002 11:45:39 +0100 Received: from modem-905.panther.dialup.pol.co.uk ([217.135.243.137] helo=m7k8o4.lineone.net) by tmailb1.svr.pol.co.uk with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1) id 16vyYi-00031r-00 for hexagram-8@apocalypse.org; Fri, 12 Apr 2002 11:45:37 +0100 Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.0.20020412114158.00a2bd40@pop3.lineone.net> X-Sender: hj-barrett@pop3.lineone.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2002 11:45:34 +0100 To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org From: Hilary Barrett Subject: Re: HEX8: Trying to track down a resource In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020412103550.00ab0ec0@pop3.norton.antivirus> References: <3CAE377F.6FC78B08@independence.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Hi Andreas, http://www.lieske.com/5e-intro.htm (Just grab a distinctive phrase from the original and google it between "quotation marks" - I've never known it to fail!) Thanks for sending me to the site! best wishes, Hilary I Ching with Clarity http://www.onlineClarity.co.uk At 10:39 12/04/02 +0100, you wrote: >Hi Again Folks, > >Two requests in one sitting! I'm trying to track down the source of a web >page article I have been sent on five element theory. I was sent it by >Ely Britto, who used to be a member of this list. She seemed to think >that it had come from this list. > >I know attachments are discouraged, so I'll paste the opening few >lines. If any one recognizes it and knows where it originally comes from, >I'd be grateful. > >Many Thanks > >Andreas > > >The Five Energies >"The Five Elemental Energies of Wood, Fire, Earth, Metal, and Water >encompass all the myriad phenomena of nature. It is a paradigm that >applies equally to humans." >The Yellow Emperor's Classic of Internal Medicine >(second century bc) >The Five Elemental Energies (wu sing) represent the tangible activities of >yin and yang as manifested in the cyclic changes of nature which regulate >life on earth. Also known as the Five Movements (wu yun), they define the >various stages of transformation in the recurring natural cycles of >seasonal change, growth and decay, shifting climatic conditions, sounds, >flavors, emotions, and human physiology. Each energy is associated with >the natural element which most closely resembles its function and >character, and from these elements they take their names. Unlike the >Western and other systems of five elements, the Chinese system focuses on >energy and its transformations, not on form and substance. The elements >thus symbolize the activities of the energies with which they are associated. > > > >===== >To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org >from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. From owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Fri Apr 12 07:18:49 2002 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by apocalypse.org (8.11.6/8.11.0) id g3CBInr01027 for hexagram-8-outgoing; Fri, 12 Apr 2002 07:18:49 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: apocalypse.org: majordom set sender to owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org using -f Received: from ls212.hinet.hr (ls212.hinet.hr [195.29.150.91]) by apocalypse.org (8.11.6/8.11.0) with ESMTP id g3CBImT01023 for ; Fri, 12 Apr 2002 07:18:48 -0400 Received: from ls401.hinet.hr (ls401.hinet.hr [195.29.150.2]) by ls212.hinet.hr (0.0.0/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g3CBIkp17968 for ; Fri, 12 Apr 2002 13:18:46 +0200 Received: from lao (ar1-m112.net.hinet.hr [195.29.64.112]) by ls401.hinet.hr (8.11.6/8.11.3) with SMTP id g3CBIjN24413 for ; Fri, 12 Apr 2002 13:18:46 +0200 Message-ID: <001901c1e213$d45b8c30$70401dc3@lao> From: "Robert Matusan - Boyler" To: "hexagram-8" References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020412102551.00aab980@pop3.norton.antivirus> Subject: HEX8: Re: Wang Bi's Commentary Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2002 13:18:02 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Hi Andreas, > I'm reading through Wang Bi's commentary on the Yi (as translated by > Richard John Lynn) and I've reached a bit that I'm having difficulty making > sense of. In "Cursory Remarks on Some Hexagrams" for hexagram 28 (Major > Superiority) 011110 (p37) and hexagram 34 (Great Strength) 111100 (p38) he > says "yang lines all occupy yin positions". He uses the same phrase on > both occasions. > > The problem that I have is that I do not see that yang lines *ALL* occupy > yin positions. Take Major Superiority: the 1st yang line is in a yin > position (i.e. the 2nd line of the gua) but the 2nd yang line is in a yang > position (i.e. the 3rd line of the gua). Similarly, the yang line in the > 5th place. > > I appreciate that Wang Bi takes a slightly different view to the character > of the places because he says that the first and sixth places are not > reckoned when considering yin/yang character, but that still leaves the > four nuclear lines. In both of these cases (hex 28 and hex 34) there are > clearly yang lines in yang places. Yet he makes that statement. > > Can anyone shed any light on this? Both misprint and oversight in the > translation seem unlikely to me. If we disregard possibility of misprint and/or oversight (although there are some typos in the book), I should say that a possible explanation is in the context of inside/outside relationship of yin and yang in the hexagrams as a whole, with slightly different perspective in each case, but still consistent with the theory. Proper place of yin is inside, and proper place of yang is outside. In first case (gua 28) *all* yang lines are inside (where yin lines should be) of the hexagram. (Outer lines are at bottom and at top of the hexagram.) Compare it with gua 62. Similar case (but with different perspective) is with gua 34, where *all* yang lines are also inside (according to "rule" that lower trigram is inside, and upper trigram is outside), but seen as lines not as trigrams. So *all* yang lines are inside of the hexagram while *all* yin lines are outside (at the top of the hexagram). I think this could be an explanation, but I'd like to hear other opinions too. Wansui! Boyler ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. From owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Fri Apr 12 11:40:58 2002 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by apocalypse.org (8.11.6/8.11.0) id g3CFewn12600 for hexagram-8-outgoing; Fri, 12 Apr 2002 11:40:58 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: apocalypse.org: majordom set sender to owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org using -f Received: from randall.mail.atl.earthlink.net (randall.mail.atl.earthlink.net [207.69.200.237]) by apocalypse.org (8.11.6/8.11.0) with ESMTP id g3CFevT12595 for ; Fri, 12 Apr 2002 11:40:58 -0400 Received: from smui00.slb.mindspring.net ([199.174.114.20]) by randall.mail.atl.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16w3AR-0003gl-00 for hexagram-8@apocalypse.org; Fri, 12 Apr 2002 11:40:51 -0400 Received: by smui00.slb.mindspring.net id LAA0000012368; Fri, 12 Apr 2002 11:40:50 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2002 11:40:50 -0400 From: To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Subject: HEX8: Qi and energy Message-ID: X-Originating-IP: 67.113.2.123 Sender: owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Andreas' question, citing the following passage, raised a question for me that I've been meaning to ask all of you. < Unlike the Western and other systems of five elements, the Chinese system focuses on energy and its transformations, not on form and substance. The elements thus symbolize the activities of the energies with which they are associated.> I just have one particular aspect to ask about. It seems fairly clear to me that the word "energy" in the above passage translates the Chinese word, "qi." My question is, does the equation of qi with energy satisfy you? In short, is qi energy? And is the English word energy an adequate or even acceptable cognate of qi? Ken Rose ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. From owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Fri Apr 12 12:23:56 2002 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by apocalypse.org (8.11.6/8.11.0) id g3CGNuW15547 for hexagram-8-outgoing; Fri, 12 Apr 2002 12:23:56 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: apocalypse.org: majordom set sender to owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org using -f Received: from hitchcock.mail.mindspring.net (hitchcock.mail.mindspring.net [207.69.200.23]) by apocalypse.org (8.11.6/8.11.0) with ESMTP id g3CGNtT15543 for ; Fri, 12 Apr 2002 12:23:55 -0400 Received: from smui03.slb.mindspring.net ([199.174.114.22]) by hitchcock.mail.mindspring.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16w3q1-00089K-00 for hexagram-8@apocalypse.org; Fri, 12 Apr 2002 12:23:49 -0400 Received: by smui03.slb.mindspring.net id MAA0000024316; Fri, 12 Apr 2002 12:23:49 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2002 12:23:49 -0400 From: To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Subject: Re: HEX8: Wang Bi's Commentary Message-ID: X-Originating-IP: 67.113.2.123 Sender: owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Andreas, Can anyone shed any light on this? Both misprint and oversight in the translation seem unlikely to me. I sincerely doubt that this will shed any light, but perhaps it can make the darkness more entertaining. The collation of texts known generally as the Taijiquan Classics of the famous boxing clan, the Yangs, contains a text attributed to the legendary monk and putative founder of taiji, Zhang San Feng. The following is from this text. Here I quote the translation by Benjamin Lo, Martin Inn, Susan Foe, and Robert Amacker that can be found in The Essence of T'ai Chi Ch'uan: The Literary Tradition, published by North Atlantic in 1985. Insubstantial and substantial should be clearly differentiated. One place has insubstantiality and substantiality; every place has the same insubstantiality and substantiality. In case it's not clear, the terms "insubstantial" and "substantial" are translations of the Chinese pair, xu and shi. In the parlance of taijiquan, these are frequent emblems of yin and yang. Ken ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. From owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Sat Apr 13 06:40:24 2002 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by apocalypse.org (8.11.6/8.11.0) id g3DAeO830362 for hexagram-8-outgoing; Sat, 13 Apr 2002 06:40:24 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: apocalypse.org: majordom set sender to owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org using -f Received: from smarthost-1.mail.telinco.net (smarthost-1.mail.telinco.net [212.1.128.90]) by apocalypse.org (8.11.6/8.11.0) with ESMTP id g3DAeNT30355 for ; Sat, 13 Apr 2002 06:40:23 -0400 Received: from ppp-2-48.5800-12.telinco.net ([212.1.141.48] helo=weft.telinco.co.uk) by smarthost-1.mail.telinco.net with esmtp (Exim 3.22 #1) id 16wKxC-000FBp-00 for hexagram-8@apocalypse.org; Sat, 13 Apr 2002 11:40:22 +0100 Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.0.20020413112259.00a88380@pop3.norton.antivirus> X-Sender: tfi015829/mail.telinco.co.uk@pop3.norton.antivirus X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Sat, 13 Apr 2002 11:40:24 +0100 To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org From: Andreas Schoter Subject: Re: HEX8: Re: Wang Bi's Commentary In-Reply-To: <001901c1e213$d45b8c30$70401dc3@lao> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020412102551.00aab980@pop3.norton.antivirus> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org At 13:18 2002-04-12 +0200, Robert Matusan - Boyler wrote: > > I'm reading through Wang Bi's commentary on the Yi (as translated by > > Richard John Lynn) and I've reached a bit that I'm having difficulty making > > sense of. In "Cursory Remarks on Some Hexagrams" for hexagram 28 (Major > > Superiority) 011110 (p37) and hexagram 34 (Great Strength) 111100 (p38) he > > says "yang lines all occupy yin positions". He uses the same phrase on > > both occasions. > > > > The problem that I have is that I do not see that yang lines *ALL* occupy > > yin positions. Take Major Superiority: the 1st yang line is in a yin > > position (i.e. the 2nd line of the gua) but the 2nd yang line is in a yang > > position (i.e. the 3rd line of the gua). Similarly, the yang line in the > > 5th place. > >Proper place of yin is inside, and proper place of yang is outside. In first >case (gua 28) *all* yang lines are inside (where yin lines should be) of the >hexagram. (Outer lines are at bottom and at top of the hexagram.) Compare it >with gua 62. OK, that makes sense, I'll go with that. Given the great number of footnotes in the text I'm surprised that no explanation is offered. I'll go back and read it again and see if it makes sense. Thanks Andreas ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. From owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Sat Apr 13 06:40:26 2002 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by apocalypse.org (8.11.6/8.11.0) id g3DAeQl30379 for hexagram-8-outgoing; Sat, 13 Apr 2002 06:40:26 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: apocalypse.org: majordom set sender to owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org using -f Received: from smarthost-1.mail.telinco.net (smarthost-1.mail.telinco.net [212.1.128.90]) by apocalypse.org (8.11.6/8.11.0) with ESMTP id g3DAePT30365 for ; Sat, 13 Apr 2002 06:40:25 -0400 Received: from ppp-2-48.5800-12.telinco.net ([212.1.141.48] helo=weft.telinco.co.uk) by smarthost-1.mail.telinco.net with esmtp (Exim 3.22 #1) id 16wKxD-000FBp-00 for hexagram-8@apocalypse.org; Sat, 13 Apr 2002 11:40:24 +0100 Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.0.20020413112431.00abdb60@pop3.norton.antivirus> X-Sender: tfi015829/mail.telinco.co.uk@pop3.norton.antivirus X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Sat, 13 Apr 2002 11:28:56 +0100 To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org From: Andreas Schoter Subject: Re: HEX8: Qi and energy In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Off topic, I guess, but: At 11:40 2002-04-12 -0400, Ken Rose wrote: >In short, is qi energy? And is the English >word energy an adequate or even acceptable >cognate of qi? From a martial arts context, qi is whatever connects yi (intent) to jing (expressed power). Perhaps the problem with trying to find a single definition of the word "qi" is that it is used in different ways in different contexts. I've heard acupuncturists who say that qi, used in the medical sense is different from qi used in a martial sense. I don't know about that, but it certainly does seem to be used to cover a lot of conceptual territory. In that case, it is similar to the English word "energy" which has a similarly wide usage. Andreas ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. From owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Sat Apr 13 06:40:23 2002 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by apocalypse.org (8.11.6/8.11.0) id g3DAeNe30356 for hexagram-8-outgoing; Sat, 13 Apr 2002 06:40:23 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: apocalypse.org: majordom set sender to owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org using -f Received: from smarthost-1.mail.telinco.net (smarthost-1.mail.telinco.net [212.1.128.90]) by apocalypse.org (8.11.6/8.11.0) with ESMTP id g3DAeMT30350 for ; Sat, 13 Apr 2002 06:40:23 -0400 Received: from ppp-2-48.5800-12.telinco.net ([212.1.141.48] helo=weft.telinco.co.uk) by smarthost-1.mail.telinco.net with esmtp (Exim 3.22 #1) id 16wKxA-000FBp-00 for hexagram-8@apocalypse.org; Sat, 13 Apr 2002 11:40:21 +0100 Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.0.20020412182915.00a87950@pop3.norton.antivirus> X-Sender: tfi015829/mail.telinco.co.uk@pop3.norton.antivirus X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Sat, 13 Apr 2002 11:22:52 +0100 To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org From: Andreas Schoter Subject: Re: HEX8: Trying to track down a resource In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020412114158.00a2bd40@pop3.lineone.net> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020412103550.00ab0ec0@pop3.norton.antivirus> <3CAE377F.6FC78B08@independence.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Hilary, At 11:45 2002-04-12 +0100, you wrote: >http://www.lieske.com/5e-intro.htm > >(Just grab a distinctive phrase from the original and google it between >"quotation marks" - I've never known it to fail!) Many Thanks - I should have thought of that myself...! Andreas ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. From owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Sat Apr 13 09:57:42 2002 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by apocalypse.org (8.11.6/8.11.0) id g3DDvgg03725 for hexagram-8-outgoing; Sat, 13 Apr 2002 09:57:42 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: apocalypse.org: majordom set sender to owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org using -f Received: from imo-m08.mx.aol.com (imo-m08.mx.aol.com [64.12.136.163]) by apocalypse.org (8.11.6/8.11.0) with ESMTP id g3DDvfT03721 for ; Sat, 13 Apr 2002 09:57:41 -0400 Received: from Aglie@aol.com by imo-m08.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v32.5.) id h.8f.1a4dd8fa (14374) for ; Sat, 13 Apr 2002 09:57:27 -0400 (EDT) From: Aglie@aol.com Message-ID: <8f.1a4dd8fa.29e99346@aol.com> Date: Sat, 13 Apr 2002 09:57:26 EDT Subject: Re: HEX8: Qi and energy To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_8f.1a4dd8fa.29e99346_boundary" X-Mailer: AOL 7.0 for Windows US sub 121 Sender: owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org --part1_8f.1a4dd8fa.29e99346_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To ask if qi is energy is to impose the concept of Western physics in which energy and matter are clearly separated. Even after Einstein they are different though one can be converted to the other, at least matter to energy. Qi is sometimes material, sometimes purely energy. And given that the concept is 2,000 years old, we should not expect it to have a invariant meaning. I think what makes it useful to Westerners, certainly to me, is that it gives a term for the subjective experience of energy both within and as we sense it in others. Western science and even psychology have no concepts for this sort of energy. Freud tried to reduce it to sexuality but qi is more than this. Yin/yang and wu xing as terms indicate that this sort of energy can have different qualities. It is interesting that yin/yang is now part of our culture while the five phases is not and seems rather artificial. Anyone else have comments. Best, Geoffrey In a message dated 4/13/2002 6:41:09 AM Eastern Daylight Time, andreas@telinco.co.uk writes: > > Off topic, I guess, but: > > At 11:40 2002-04-12 -0400, Ken Rose wrote: > >In short, is qi energy? And is the English > >word energy an adequate or even acceptable > >cognate of qi? > > From a martial arts context, qi is whatever connects yi (intent) to jing > (expressed power). > > Perhaps the problem with trying to find a single definition of the word > "qi" is that it is used in different ways in different contexts. I've > heard acupuncturists who say that qi, used in the medical sense is > different from qi used in a martial sense. I don't know about that, but it > > certainly does seem to be used to cover a lot of conceptual territory. In > that case, it is similar to the English word "energy" which has a similarly > > wide usage. > > Andreas > > > > --part1_8f.1a4dd8fa.29e99346_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit        To ask if qi is energy is to impose the concept of Western physics in which energy and matter are clearly separated. Even after Einstein they are different though one can be converted to the other, at least matter to energy.
Qi is sometimes material, sometimes purely energy. And given that the concept is 2,000 years old, we should not expect it to have a invariant meaning.
I think what makes it useful to Westerners, certainly to me, is that it gives a term for the subjective experience of energy both within and as we sense it in others. Western science and even psychology have no concepts for this sort of energy. Freud tried to reduce it to sexuality but qi is more than this.
Yin/yang and wu xing as terms indicate that this sort of energy can have different qualities. It is interesting that yin/yang is now part of our culture while the five phases is not and seems rather artificial.
Anyone else have comments.
Best,
Geoffrey


In a message dated 4/13/2002 6:41:09 AM Eastern Daylight Time, andreas@telinco.co.uk writes:



Off topic, I guess, but:

At 11:40 2002-04-12 -0400, Ken Rose wrote:
>In short, is qi energy? And is the English
>word energy an adequate or even acceptable
>cognate of qi?

>From a martial arts context, qi is whatever connects yi (intent) to jing
(expressed power).

Perhaps the problem with trying to find a single definition of the word
"qi" is that it is used in different ways in different contexts.  I've
heard acupuncturists who say that qi, used in the medical sense is
different from qi used in a martial sense.  I don't know about that, but it
certainly does seem to be used to cover a lot of conceptual territory.  In
that case, it is similar to the English word "energy" which has a similarly
wide usage.

Andreas





 --part1_8f.1a4dd8fa.29e99346_boundary-- ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. From owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Sat Apr 13 10:07:43 2002 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by apocalypse.org (8.11.6/8.11.0) id g3DE7hn04088 for hexagram-8-outgoing; Sat, 13 Apr 2002 10:07:43 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: apocalypse.org: majordom set sender to owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org using -f Received: from mel-rto4.wanadoo.fr (smtp-out-4.wanadoo.fr [193.252.19.23]) by apocalypse.org (8.11.6/8.11.0) with ESMTP id g3DE7gT04084 for ; Sat, 13 Apr 2002 10:07:42 -0400 Received: from mel-rta1.wanadoo.fr (193.252.19.150) by mel-rto4.wanadoo.fr; 13 Apr 2002 16:07:31 +0200 Received: from [10.0.1.24] (80.9.94.82) by mel-rta1.wanadoo.fr; 13 Apr 2002 16:07:21 +0200 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/9.0.1.3108 Date: Sat, 13 Apr 2002 16:07:17 +0200 Subject: HEX8: new Yi Jing in French From: Kirk McElhearn To: Message-ID: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Those who read French may be interested in knowing that Cyrille Javary has recently released a new commented translation of the Yi Jing in French. You can find out about it here: http://www.mcelhearn.com/yijing.html Kirk vice versa Translations - French to English, English to French | Technical Writing Traductions francais-anglais, anglais-francais | Redaction technique . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . kirk@mcelhearn.com | http://www.mcelhearn.com . . . . . . . . Kirk McElhearn | Chemin de la Lauze | 05600 Guillestre | France . . ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. From owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Sat Apr 13 10:10:44 2002 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by apocalypse.org (8.11.6/8.11.0) id g3DEAir04216 for hexagram-8-outgoing; Sat, 13 Apr 2002 10:10:44 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: apocalypse.org: majordom set sender to owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org using -f Received: from mail.independence.net (s1.independence.net [204.144.177.35]) by apocalypse.org (8.11.6/8.11.0) with SMTP id g3DEAhT04211 for ; Sat, 13 Apr 2002 10:10:43 -0400 Received: (qmail 29010 invoked from network); 13 Apr 2002 14:10:36 -0000 Received: from ridgway407.independence.net (HELO independence.net) (204.144.177.95) by mail.independence.net with SMTP; 13 Apr 2002 14:10:36 -0000 Message-ID: <3CB84A2D.BB076185@independence.net> Date: Sat, 13 Apr 2002 08:09:32 -0700 From: Bradford Hatcher X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.78C-CCK-MCD {C-UDP; EBM-APPLE} (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Subject: HEX8: Trying to track down a resource References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020412103550.00ab0ec0@pop3.norton.antivirus> <3CAE377F.6FC78B08@independence.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20020412182915.00a87950@pop3.norton.antivirus> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Andreas Schoter wrote: > > Hilary, > > At 11:45 2002-04-12 +0100, you wrote: > >http://www.lieske.com/5e-intro.htm > > > >(Just grab a distinctive phrase from the original and google it between > >"quotation marks" - I've never known it to fail!) > > Many Thanks - I should have thought of that myself...! > > Andreas Hi Andeas- I got the impression you were looking for the reference in Hex8 archives. I've copied all the accessible ones, as far as they go anyway, but realized I had them filed by month. Quite tedious to search, but I would have searched for the phrase "wu sing" for obvious reasons. Brad ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. From owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Sat Apr 13 12:54:45 2002 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by apocalypse.org (8.11.6/8.11.0) id g3DGsjI10872 for hexagram-8-outgoing; Sat, 13 Apr 2002 12:54:45 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: apocalypse.org: majordom set sender to owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org using -f Received: from smarthost-2.mail.telinco.net (smarthost-2.mail.telinco.net [212.1.128.91]) by apocalypse.org (8.11.6/8.11.0) with ESMTP id g3DGsiT10868 for ; Sat, 13 Apr 2002 12:54:44 -0400 Received: from ppp-2-23.5800-12.telinco.net ([212.1.141.23] helo=weft.telinco.co.uk) by smarthost-2.mail.telinco.net with esmtp (Exim 3.22 #1) id 16wQnS-000DlS-00 for hexagram-8@apocalypse.org; Sat, 13 Apr 2002 17:54:43 +0100 Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.0.20020413175355.00abda20@pop3.norton.antivirus> X-Sender: tfi015829/mail.telinco.co.uk@pop3.norton.antivirus X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Sat, 13 Apr 2002 17:55:31 +0100 To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org From: Andreas Schoter Subject: Re: HEX8: new Yi Jing in French In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org At 16:07 2002-04-13 +0200, you wrote: >Those who read French may be interested in knowing that Cyrille Javary has >recently released a new commented translation of the Yi Jing in French. Excellent - at last :-) Now, when are you going to translate it into English? I'm afraid I don't read French. Andreas ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. From owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Sat Apr 13 13:30:15 2002 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by apocalypse.org (8.11.6/8.11.0) id g3DHUFH12027 for hexagram-8-outgoing; Sat, 13 Apr 2002 13:30:15 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: apocalypse.org: majordom set sender to owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org using -f Received: from mel-rto2.wanadoo.fr (smtp-out-2.wanadoo.fr [193.252.19.254]) by apocalypse.org (8.11.6/8.11.0) with ESMTP id g3DHUET12019 for ; Sat, 13 Apr 2002 13:30:14 -0400 Received: from mel-rta9.wanadoo.fr (193.252.19.69) by mel-rto2.wanadoo.fr; 13 Apr 2002 19:30:08 +0200 Received: from [10.0.1.25] (80.9.95.172) by mel-rta9.wanadoo.fr; 13 Apr 2002 19:30:03 +0200 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/9.0.1.3108 Date: Sat, 13 Apr 2002 19:30:00 +0200 Subject: Re: HEX8: new Yi Jing in French From: Kirk McElhearn To: I Ching list Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020413175355.00abda20@pop3.norton.antivirus> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org On 13/04/02 18:55, Andreas Schoter, , wrote: >> Those who read French may be interested in knowing that Cyrille Javary has >> recently released a new commented translation of the Yi Jing in French. > > Excellent - at last :-) Now, when are you going to translate it into > English? I'm afraid I don't read French. Well, it's a huge project - about 500,000 words. I met with the French publisher a couple of weeks ago, and I'm going to translate one hexagram as a sample to send out to US publishers. But be patient - it will probably take about 3 years to translate... Kirk vice versa Translations - French to English, English to French | Technical Writing Traductions francais-anglais, anglais-francais | Redaction technique . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . kirk@mcelhearn.com | http://www.mcelhearn.com . . . . . . . . Kirk McElhearn | Chemin de la Lauze | 05600 Guillestre | France . . ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. From owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Sun Apr 14 10:20:00 2002 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by apocalypse.org (8.11.6/8.11.0) id g3EEK0B21171 for hexagram-8-outgoing; Sun, 14 Apr 2002 10:20:00 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: apocalypse.org: majordom set sender to owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org using -f Received: from smtp.comcast.net (smtp.comcast.net [24.153.64.2]) by apocalypse.org (8.11.6/8.11.0) with ESMTP id g3EEJxT21167 for ; Sun, 14 Apr 2002 10:19:59 -0400 Received: from [192.168.0.11] (pcp819097pcs.nrockv01.md.comcast.net [68.49.48.71]) by mtaout03.icomcast.net (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.1 (built Feb 6 2002)) with ESMTP id <0GUK00L1YAH54W@mtaout03.icomcast.net> for hexagram-8@apocalypse.org; Sun, 14 Apr 2002 10:19:54 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sun, 14 Apr 2002 10:19:53 -0400 From: "Dr R. Butler" Subject: Re: HEX8: Qi and energy In-reply-to: <8f.1a4dd8fa.29e99346@aol.com> To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Sender: owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Dear Kurt, Andreas, Geoffrey, Brad, Ken, Boyler (Wansui!), Hillary, Lorraine, Harmen, LiSe, Timur, and All Spring is blossoming here in the "heart of the empire" and it is wonderful indeed to see again the flowering of discourse here on Hex8 as well. Long the winter, sure now is Spring's return. Sometimes a small flower on the path of life shows the Yi's sublime influence in this post-modern world. I recently got a new, smaller cell phone. After taking it home and exploring the many features, I came across the "games". One of the games turns out to be the "Mystic I Ching" ! The Hexagrams are a variant of the W/B, and the implementation (no yarrow sticks :-) is great. Pretty cool. All the best, Rhett ===== To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. From owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Mon Apr 15 06:09:38 2002 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by apocalypse.org (8.11.6/8.11.0) id g3FA9co26835 for hexagram-8-outgoing; Mon, 15 Apr 2002 06:09:38 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: apocalypse.org: majordom set sender to owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org using -f Received: from smarthost3.mail.uk.easynet.net (smarthost3.mail.uk.easynet.net [212.135.6.13]) by apocalypse.org (8.11.6/8.11.0) with ESMTP id g3FA9bT26831 for ; Mon, 15 Apr 2002 06:09:37 -0400 Received: from tnt-25-224.easynet.co.uk ([212.134.234.224]) by smarthost3.mail.uk.easynet.net with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1) id 16x3QU-000FyJ-00 for hexagram-8@apocalypse.org; Mon, 15 Apr 2002 11:09:34 +0100 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: ian.ingram@pop3.ukonline.co.uk (Unverified) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2002 10:21:28 +0100 To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org From: "ian.ingram" Subject: Re: HEX8: Wang Bi's Commentary Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="============_-1193257141==_ma============" Sender: owner-hexagram-8@apocalypse.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: hexagram-8@apocalypse.org --============_-1193257141==_ma============ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" >Hi Ken I think I can shed some light on your quote. To illustrate the point, it's a good idea to feel it in your body in addition to conceptualizing it. If you stand relaxed, with feet shoulder-width apart (toes forward) and with knees slightly bent, spine vertical, try to find a point where your weight is comfortably between your feet. In this position, you are double-weighted - i.e. your weight is distributed evenly between each foot. Please note that the impression of this comes from the soles of the feet. If you were to try to move from this position, you would have to transfer your weight to one or other foot. The more weight that you place on one foot, the more "substantial" it becomes. In contrast, the unweighted foot becomes increasingly "insubstantial" as you do this. Try to balance on one foot; if you similarly differentiate between substantial and insubstantial in that foot, you will remain upright - if not, you will fall over because of the lack of foundation in your root. The soles of the feet are therefore the root of t'ai-chi chuan. If we do not differentiate substantial and insubstantial through the soles of the feet *when we move*, the ch'i energy does not move properly throughout the rest of the body. The second line of your quote imo therefore becomes easier to understand by inserting the word "if" at its beginning. The insubstantial (foot) only becomes that by developing the substantial (foot). With a properly insubstantial foot, the leg becomes insubstantial, the waist becomes insubstantial etc. If the differentiation is not complete in the feet, the rest of the body will not follow, therefore "One place has insubstantiality and substantiality; every place has the same insubstantiality and substantiality". Carried out correctly, this insubstantiality feels 'effortless' in the sense that the mind rather than the muscles moves the body. "Everything rises from the root in the feet, While legs and waist are perfectly aligned. Energy issues through the spine, Reaching the arms and fingertips. Stretch the sinews and draw out the bones; Relax the wrists and spread the fingertips. There is a slight feeling of swelling in the fingers, For wherever the ch'i goes there is a manifestation in the body. All this is a function of the mind, And has nothing to do with brute force." Song of the Essence and Application of T'ai-chi Chuan Douglas Wile. Lost T'ai-chi Classics from the late Ch'ing Dynasty. SUNY 1996 It's interesting to note the "As above, so below" correspondences here: Soles of feet / fingertips; soles of feet / mind - i.e. the mind, in a sense, becomes the "root" that differentiates in order to lead the body. These correspondences are of course parallel to those within the hexagram structures. Perhaps someone on the list might like to explore this aspect further? Ian you wrote: > >Can anyone shed any light on this? Both misprint and oversight in the >translation seem unlikely to me. > >I sincerely doubt that this will shed >any light, but perhaps it can make >the darkness more entertaining. > >The collation of texts known >generally as the Taijiquan Classics >of the famous boxing clan, the Yangs, >contains a text attributed to the >legendary monk and putative founder >of taiji, Zhang San Feng. The following >is from this text. Here I quote >the translation by Benjamin Lo, >Martin Inn, Susan Foe, and Robert >Amacker that can be found in >The Essence of T'ai Chi Ch'uan: >The Literary Tradition, published >by North Atlantic in 1985. > >Insubstantial and substantial >should be clearly differentiated. >One place >has insubstantiality and substantiality; >every place >has the same insubstantiality and substantiality. > >In case it's not clear, the terms >"insubstantial" and "substantial" >are translations of the Chinese >pair, xu and shi. In the parlance >of taijiquan, these are frequent >emblems of yin and yang. > >Ken > > >===== >To unsubscribe from Hexagram-8, send a message to majordomo@apocalypse.org >from the address subscribed, containing just the word UNSUBSCRIBE. -- --============_-1193257141==_ma============ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Re: HEX8: Wang Bi's Commentary
Hi Ken

I think I can shed some light on your quote.

To illustrate the point, it's a good idea to feel it in your body in addition to conceptualizing it. If you stand relaxed, with feet shoulder-width apart (toes forward) and with knees slightly bent, spine vertical, try to find a point where your weight is comfortably between your feet. In this position, you are double-weighted - i.e. your weight is distributed evenly between each foot. Please note that the impression of this comes from the soles of the feet. If you were to try to move from this position, you would have to transfer your weight to one or other foot. The more weight that you place on one foot, the more "substantial" it becomes. In contrast, the unweighted foot becomes increasingly "insubstantial" as you do this. Try to balance on one foot; if you similarly differentiate between substantial and insubstantial in that foot, you will remain upright - if not, you will fall over because of the lack of foundation in your root.

The soles of the feet are therefore the root of t'ai-chi chuan. If we do not differentiate substantial and insubstantial through the soles of the feet *when we move*, the ch'i energy does not move properly throughout the rest of the body. The second line of your quote imo therefore becomes easier to understand by inserting the word "if" at its beginning. The insubstantial (foot) only becomes that by developing the substantial (foot). With a properly insubstantial foot, the leg becomes insubstantial, the waist becomes insubstantial etc. If the differentiation is not complete in the feet, the rest of the body will not follow, therefore "One place has insubstantiality and substantiality; every place has the same insubstantiality and substantiality".  Carried out correctly, this insubstantiality feels 'effortless' in the sense that the mind rather than the muscles moves the body.

"Everything rises from the root in the feet,
While legs and waist are perfectly aligned.
Energy issues through the spine,
Reaching the arms and fingertips.
Stretch the sinews and draw out the bones;
Relax the wrists and spread the fingertips.
There is a slight feeling of swelling in the fingers,
For wherever the ch'i goes there is a manifestation in the body.
All this is a function of the mind,
And has nothing to do with brute force."

Song of the Essence and Application of T'ai-chi Chuan
Douglas Wile. Lost T'ai-chi Classics from the late Ch'ing Dynasty. SUNY 1996

It's interesting to note the "As above, so below" correspondences here: Soles of feet / fingertips; soles of feet / mind - i.e. the mind, in a sense, becomes the "root" that differentiates in order to lead the body. These correspondences are of course parallel to those within the hexagram structures. Perhaps someone on the list might like to explore this aspect further?

Ian




you wrote:

Can anyone shed any light on this?  Both misprint and oversight in the
translation seem unlikely to me.

I sincerely doubt that this will shed
any light, but perhaps it can make
the darkness more entertaining.

The collation of texts known
generally as the Taijiquan Classics
of the famous boxing clan, the Yangs,
contains a text attributed to the
legendary monk and putative founder
of taiji, Zhang San Feng. The following
is from this text. Here I quote
the translation by Benjamin Lo,
Martin Inn, Susan Foe, and Robert
Amacker that can be found in
The Essence of T'ai Chi Ch'uan:
The Literary Tradition, published
by North Atlantic in 1985.

Insubstantial and substantial
should be clearly differentiated.
One place
has insubstantiality and substantiality;
every place
has the same insubstantiality and substantiality.

In case it's not clear, the terms
"insubstantial" and "substantial"
are translations of the Chinese
pair, xu and shi. In the parlance
of taijiquan, these are frequent
emblems of yin and yang.

Ken


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